Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[Obelisk Kai]

Just fun speculation Kai. It's okay to have fun.

Normally yes, but there is an atmosphere right now that anything, no matter how small, means they are secretly working on playable Alliance High Elves. You are very likely setting yourself up for a crushing disappointment come Blizzcon.

[FlubberPuddy]

Agreed. I hope they announce lots of customization for all races, but it's highly suspicious that we're getting all these updates to Blood Elves first. Feels like change is in the air...

Definitely! I don't believe we'll see them very soon, but I hope Blizzard at least replies to that Forum Thread. Whether the answer becomes a no or yes, it's something that a lot of people are invested in so it should get answered at some point I feel. Whether at Blizzcon if someone brings up the High Elf threads and asks, or whether in an upcoming Allied Races Q&A or something. Did they ever do a specific Q&A for Allied Races only? I feel like they should

[Traycor]

Amazing! Totally support this.

Thanks Andrei!

Also, here's an interesting story/relevance post from the official forums. I might add this to the OP:

In Vanilla, High Elves were quest givers and citizens in many zones around the world.

In TBC, High Elves of the Alliance Expedition, specifically Alleria's personal force, welcomed adventurers into Allerian Stronghold on Outland.

In WotLK, High Elves were front and center, representing the Alliance in Dalaran, through the Silver Covenant faction, and were again the Alliance representatives for the entire Argent Tournament. The Silver Covenant High Elves were THE Alliance's presence for all of WotLK, with our Kirin Tor and Argent Crusade going neutral.

In Cataclysm, High Elves' presence in the "old world" was updated, and they were more prominent than Vanilla, especially in the Hinterlands, defending Quel'danil from the Forsaken. Later, they joined the Blood Elf Farstriders in assaulting Zul'Aman in the "troll patch".

In MoP, High Elves had probably their biggest presence yet, as Vereesa, Jaina, and the Silver Covenant took 1/2 of the Alliance screentime for the entire expansion (other 1/2 goes to SI:7 and the Stormwind army). They were there for the bombing of Theramore. They commited the Purge of Dalaran. They assaulted the Isle of Thunder, and the Throne of Thunder, together with the Shado-Pan and the Blood Elves. They participated in the Siege of Orgrimmar, with Vereesa and Jaina even participating in a boss encounter.

In Legion, High Elves joined the various order halls, having roles in the mage and paladin ones, but especially the Hunter one, which Vereesa and the entire Silver Covenant joined. Later, Vereesa and her High Elves, together with their NE and BE cousins assaulted the gates of Suramar city, with High Elves being an equal force to the other two - enough for Elisande to lecture them just the same. Vereesa and Arator were later 2 of the -very few- lore characters to fly on the Vindicaar to Argus, where they were finally reunited with Alleria - the High Elves' greatest hero.

I want to play as a High Elf, because they are not only my favorite racial archetype in High Fantasy in general, but because in Warcraft in particular they are founders and staunch members of the Alliance, and through the years they have been so often represented, that they've eclipsed the majority of already playable races anyway.

Source: https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/...217740?page=34

[Obelisk Kai]

Thanks Andrei!

Also, here's an interesting story/relevance post from the official forums. I might add this to the OP:



Source: https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/...217740?page=34

Why did you emphasize the mistake? High Elves are not founders and staunch members of the Alliance. They were last in and first out.

[FlubberPuddy]

Why did you emphasize the mistake? High Elves are not founders and staunch members of the Alliance. They were last in and first out.

So when a larger government body makes a decision, the whole entirety of those governed have no disagreements about said decisions ever and everyone completely, undoubtedly, 100% agrees?

Just because Quel'thalas left the Alliance doesn't mean every single High Elf, how do you explain those High Elves that currently exist on Alliance and garner more spotlight for Alliance than other already playable Alliance races?

Try harder please, I love seeing all this

[Traycor]

Why did you emphasize the mistake? High Elves are not founders and staunch members of the Alliance. They were last in and first out.

If you look at the source, it's bolded exactly as the original.

As for your point, that's debatable whether it's a "mistake". The alliance between High Elves and Humans was forged thousands of years ago in the timeline. Not all High Elves honored or respected that alliance, but the ones who did are the ones who are still Alliance High Elves today. And the High Elves of Dalaran would have been part of the founding of the human "Alliance" in it's current form. They are still High Elves and still loyal to the Alliance today.

Blood Elves abandoned ship, but the High Elves never did. They aren't the "first out" because they aren't out at all.

[corebit]

So when a larger government body makes a decision, the whole entirety of those governed have no disagreements about said decisions ever and everyone completely, undoubtedly, 100% agrees?

Just because Quel'thalas left the Alliance doesn't mean every single High Elf, how do you explain those High Elves that currently exist on Alliance and garner more spotlight for Alliance than other already playable Alliance races?

Try harder please, I love seeing all this

Obelisk is clearly referring to the events prior to the Blood Elf story.

If you look at the source, it's bolded exactly as the original.

As for your point, that's debatable whether it's a "mistake". The alliance between High Elves and Humans was forged thousands of years ago in the timeline. Not all High Elves honored or respected that alliance, but the ones who did are the ones who are still Alliance High Elves today. And the High Elves of Dalaran would have been part of the founding of the human "Alliance" in it's current form. They are still High Elves and still loyal to the Alliance today.

Blood Elves abandoned ship, but the High Elves never did. They aren't the "first out" because they aren't out at all.

Then you really need to go learn your lore. The High Elves bailed on the Alliance before the Blood Elves were even a thing.

[FlubberPuddy]

Obelisk is clearly referring to the events prior to the Blood Elf story.

Then you really need to go learn your lore. The High Elves bailed on the Alliance before the Blood Elves were even a thing.

"When Quel'Thalas left the Alliance, some high elves chose to remain with their allies over their kingdom, and to this day still support the Alliance."

Directly from: https://wow.gamepedia.com/High_elf

So yeah my point still stands 100% of Quel'thalas wasn't on board with it.

[Obelisk Kai]

If you look at the source, it's bolded exactly as the original.

As for your point, that's debatable whether it's a "mistake". The alliance between High Elves and Humans was forged thousands of years ago in the timeline. Not all High Elves honored or respected that alliance, but the ones who did are the ones who are still Alliance High Elves today. And the High Elves of Dalaran would have been part of the founding of the human "Alliance" in it's current form. They are still High Elves and still loyal to the Alliance today.

Blood Elves abandoned ship, but the High Elves never did. They aren't the "first out" because they aren't out at all.

No, it's clearly a mistake. He mentioned the Alliance, not the relationship between Humans and High Elves, you can't conflate the two when there is a clear distinction.

As for that relationship, the majority of High Elves were xenophobic isolationists who only interacted with humanity out of desperation during the troll wars and generally seemed to have restricted any major interactions afterwards to the city of Dalaran which hosted an expatriate population. Even then, Prince Kael was criticised for wanting to spending more time in Dalaran than he did in Quel'thalas, and that developed into a deep insecurity within him.

AND during the foundation of the Alliance, as I said, the High Elves were the very last in and the very first out, an approach consistent with their aloof superiority and desire to be left alone (this attitude was apparently beaten out of them scourge, which has forced them to engage with the wider world or perish).

In fact, when the Kingdom of Quel'thalas quit the Alliance, they were still High Elves as the third war was still several years away. The High Elves very much abandoned ship. You simply cannot equate the few outliers in High Elven society who actually wanted to learn about the outside world as being more important than the vast majority of their people.

[corebit]

"When Quel'Thalas left the Alliance, some high elves chose to remain with their allies over their kingdom, and to this day still support the Alliance."

Directly from: https://wow.gamepedia.com/High_elf

So yeah my point still stands 100% of Quel'thalas wasn't on board with it.

I like how you try to twist numbers given every possible opportunity to make it seem as if huge numbers of high elves remained loyal to the Alliance. The important thing is that High Elven nation was never an important member or even founding member of the Alliance, they joined simply because they couldn't handle the trolls, they sent minimal help even when the orcs were ravaging southern Eastern Kingdoms, and bailed at the first opportunity when it came to share the burden of containing the defeated horde.

And all of this happened while they still called themselves High Elves, so you have zero excuse to blame it on the Blood Elves.

[Traycor]

The High Elves bailed on the Alliance before the Blood Elves were even a thing.

There are High Elves in the Alliance today, which you know good and well. The whole context of this was a player saying he wanted to play the High Elves loyal to the Alliance.

[FlubberPuddy]

I like how you try to twist numbers given every possible opportunity to make it seem as if huge numbers of high elves remained loyal to the Alliance. The important thing is that High Elven nation was never an important member or even founding member of the Alliance, they joined simply because they couldn't handle the trolls, they sent minimal help even when the orcs were ravaging southern Eastern Kingdoms, and bailed at the first opportunity when it came to share the burden of containing the defeated horde.

And all of this happened while they still called themselves High Elves, so you have zero excuse to blame it on the Blood Elves.

That's a nice history lesson you're sharing, but when people are asking for High Elves most are talking about WoW representation of them, and WoW representation of High Elves is more than some already playable races. You can keep sticking to the old history, but life and the game moves forward

[Obelisk Kai]

There are High Elves in the Alliance today, which you know good and well. The whole context of this was a player saying he wanted to play the High Elves loyal to the Alliance.

But that player is basing part of his reasoning on a mistake, that the High Elves were a founding member and long standing member of the Alliance when they were not.

The state of Quel'thalas was last in and first out.

This idea that High Elves and Humans were long standing allies, shoulder to shoulder across thousands of years, is a genre trope rooted in tolkien's works that he is applying to the Warcraft universe uncritically without even thinking that he could be, as he is, wrong.

That there a tiny number of Elves in the Alliance today is irrelevant to the wider point of how wrong this assumption is.

[Traycor]

I like how you try to twist numbers given every possible opportunity to make it seem as if huge numbers of high elves remained loyal to the Alliance.

10% of all survivors is fairly significant percentage.

The important thing is that High Elven nation was never an important member or even founding member of the Alliance, they joined simply because they couldn't handle the trolls, they sent minimal help even when the orcs were ravaging southern Eastern Kingdoms, and bailed at the first opportunity when it came to share the burden of containing the defeated horde.

And all of this happened while they still called themselves High Elves, so you have zero excuse to blame it on the Blood Elves.

But in context, we weren't talking about the High Elven nation (i.e. Silvermoon or Quel'Thalas). Those elves are all Blood Elves now. We're talking about the High Elves. The game clearly distinguishes High Elves and Blood Elves. The High Elves were loyal and remained in the Alliance. They are also the High Elves who, in past wars, honored their human allegiance when the others (who became Blood Elves) didn't care.

- - - Updated - - -

But that player is basing part of his reasoning on a mistake, that the High Elves were a founding member and long standing member of the Alliance when they were not.

The state of Quel'thalas was last in and first out.

This idea that High Elves and Humans were long standing allies, shoulder to shoulder across thousands of years, is a genre trope rooted in tolkien's works that he is applying to the Warcraft universe uncritically without even thinking that he could be, as he is, wrong.

That there a tiny number of Elves in the Alliance today is irrelevant to the wider point of how wrong this assumption is.

Fallacy. You've been reading your sig too much. He's referring to the High Elves. That's the faction of Thalassian elves that are loyal to the Alliance. And these elves were part of every iteration of the Alliance, including its founding. And they were allies enough for thousands of years that some of them felt compelled to go help the humans even when their own people thought it was ridiculous.

A big part of the whole story of the High Elves (even back in Warcraft II) is that they stand apart from what Quel'Thalas (i.e. Blood Elves) think is best.

[corebit]

10% of all survivors is fairly significant percentage.

And where did you get that 10% from? For all we know the High Elven remnants could be 1%.

But in context, we weren't talking about the High Elven nation (i.e. Silvermoon or Quel'Thalas). Those elves are all Blood Elves now. We're talking about the High Elves. The game clearly distinguishes High Elves and Blood Elves. The High Elves were loyal and remained in the Alliance. They are also the High Elves who, in past wars, honored their human allegiance when the others (who became Blood Elves) didn't care.

The context we are talking about is your choice to highlight another poster's text saying the High Elves are founding members of the Alliance. Please point me in the lore where the High Elves are "founding" members of the Alliance or even "core" members, when everything presented so far shows the Human Kingdoms were the original founders, Quel'thalas was the last to join, and it was one of the first to bail.

[Obelisk Kai]

10% of all survivors is fairly significant percentage.



But in context, we weren't talking about the High Elven nation (i.e. Silvermoon or Quel'Thalas). Those elves are all Blood Elves now. We're talking about the High Elves. The game clearly distinguishes High Elves and Blood Elves. The High Elves were loyal and remained in the Alliance. They are also the High Elves who, in past wars, honored their human allegiance when the others (who became Blood Elves) didn't care.

But the events we are discussing occurred before the Blood Elves were even a thing. You are attempting to give moral equivalence to a tiny, tiny minority against the vast majority of their countrymen.

For the vast majority of their history, there has been NO special bond between Quel'thalas and humanity. If any human nation had a special bond with Quel'thalas it was Dalaran, and they're currently neutral.

That a tiny number of High Elves had such an affinity is irrelevant.

Overall, High Elves are not saintly, noble beings in whose presence everyone must bask.

They were selfish, arrogant, entitled jerks with a superiority complex and when offered the chance to be a 'founding member' of the Alliance they turned it down flat and then had to be compelled by ancient blood oath.

To which they responded with the bear minimum of forces they could.

P.S. That 10% figure has almost certainly dropped a bit with the destruction of quel'lithien (well not much, it's just a hut but everyone thinks these huts are home to huge high elf populations), theramore and the campaigns the Silver Covenant have fought in.

[FlubberPuddy]

The context we are talking about is your choice to highlight another poster's text saying the High Elves are founding members of the Alliance. Please point me in the lore where the High Elves are "founding" members of the Alliance or even "core" members, when everything presented so far shows they were isolationist and selfish from the start.

So you want to argue over a minor thing that poster posted which is akin to fat fingering a letter, to discredit the rest of his post? The rest of his post still stands and damn right they were "core" members even Metzen mentions them when he talked about the Alliance of Lordaeron during WoD time

EDIT: I'm laughing so much right now, this is incredibly hilarious now the anti-helfers can't deny the presence of Alliance High Elves in current WoW so try to go back to history and talk about the kingdom of Quel'thalas as if the current Alliance High Elves in WoW all 100% actually agreed with their government's choices.
@Traycor inhale that sweet victory ^___^b!

[Traycor]

But the events we are discussing occurred before the Blood Elves were even a thing.

True. But the Thalassian elves who didn't care about the Alliance became the Blood Elf faction of Thalassian elves. The ones who cared about the Alliance are the High Elf faction of Thalassian elves, as clearly represented in game. And the differences were pointed out as far back as Warcraft II. The only elves we had were the ones who were loyal (and today would be the High Elves on the Alliance side). We didn't see the elves back then who would today be called Blood Elves.

For the vast majority of their history, there has been NO special bond between Quel'thalas and humanity.

Then why did some High Elves come to their aid? They didn't do it because of some history lesson in a book that said they owed them a favor. These High Elves felt compelled to go and die to honor their old allegiance.

If any human nation had a special bond with Quel'thalas it was Dalaran, and they're currently neutral.

The human leadership of the city-state are neutral (if Alliance leaning). But the Silver Covenant is clearly loyal to the Alliance and is not neutral.

That a tiny number of High Elves had such an affinity is irrelevant.

Blizzard obviously doesn't see the Silver Covenant as irrelevant, because they've shown up in many important parts of the story for many years and many expansions. You may want them to be irrelevant, but that's your personal desire, and one Blizzard clearly does not share.

[corebit]

So you want to argue over a minor thing that poster posted which is akin to fat fingering a letter, to discredit the rest of his post? The rest of his post still stands and damn right they were "core" members even Metzen mentions them when he talked about the Alliance of Lordaeron during WoD time

It's not just that post though. Every single post from the high elf camp has shown they have almost zero lore knowledge, and just invent things on the spot or work entirely from headcanon.

EDIT: I'm laughing so much right now, this is incredibly hilarious now the anti-helfers can't deny the presence of Alliance High Elves in current WoW so try to go back to history and talk about the kingdom of Quel'thalas as if the current Alliance High Elves in WoW all 100% actually agreed with their government's choices.
@Traycor inhale that sweet victory ^___^b!

Awww how cute, deep inside you know very well Blizzard ain't giving you high elves, so it's gnawing you so hard you have to mask it by pretending you're laughing.
And what victory are we talking here? Unless are you one of those tin-foil users who believes the blue extending the Helf thread is akin to them confirming High Elves.

[Obelisk Kai]

True. But the Thalassian elves who didn't care about the Alliance became the Blood Elf faction of Thalassian elves. The ones who cared about the Alliance are the High Elf faction of Thalassian elves, as clearly represented in game. And the differences were pointed out as far back as Warcraft II. The only elves we had were the ones who were loyal (and today would be the High Elves on the Alliance side). We didn't see the elves back then who would today be called Blood Elves.

The Elves in Warcraft 2 were part of a force sent by Quel'thalas. You have no idea how many stayed and how many went home. At a certain point in the campaign, the entire nation was fighting the Horde. This force was not an independent entity, the individuals within it made their own choices in the years ahead but you can't point at the Warcraft 2 units and say 'they all became Silver Covenant'.

Most of them probably went home.

Then why did some High Elves come to their aid? They didn't do it because of some history lesson in a book that said they owed them a favor. These High Elves felt compelled to go and die to honor their old allegiance.

Actually that is literally why they did it. Because of their aid during the Troll Wars, the (for once) grateful High Elves of Quel'thalas swore an oath that they would offer assistance should any living descendant of King Thoradin request it.

Anduin Lothar, the last descendant, invoked the oath, and under their own sense of honour they could not refuse, but they sent the bare minimum of forces they could.

The human leadership of the city-state are neutral (if Alliance leaning). But the Silver Covenant is clearly loyal to the Alliance and is not neutral.

The Silver Covenant is also a small militia comprised almost entirely of ex Farstriders and a few Dalarani Mages. They are not the basis for a major power within the Alliance on the level of Stormwind, Ironforge, Gnomeregan or even the Void Elves.

Blizzard obviously doesn't see the Silver Covenant as irrelevant, because they've shown up in many important parts of the story for many years and many expansions. You may want them to be irrelevant, but that's your personal desire, and one Blizzard clearly does not share.

We have no idea how Blizzard sees the Silver Covenant, and you have a similar desire to magnify their role and importance out of all proportion to what they actually do, which is be in the background.

And the only story moment I can recall them playing an actual role in was the purge of Dalaran followed by the isle of thunder. Managing a tournament doesn't count. Nor does holding the door open for Alliance adventurers to enter Zul'Aman.