1. #1841
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    Quote Originally Posted by corebit View Post
    Obelisk is clearly referring to the events prior to the Blood Elf story.

    Then you really need to go learn your lore. The High Elves bailed on the Alliance before the Blood Elves were even a thing.
    "When Quel'Thalas left the Alliance, some high elves chose to remain with their allies over their kingdom, and to this day still support the Alliance."

    Directly from: https://wow.gamepedia.com/High_elf

    So yeah my point still stands 100% of Quel'thalas wasn't on board with it.

  2. #1842
    Legendary! Obelisk Kai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Traycor View Post
    If you look at the source, it's bolded exactly as the original.

    As for your point, that's debatable whether it's a "mistake". The alliance between High Elves and Humans was forged thousands of years ago in the timeline. Not all High Elves honored or respected that alliance, but the ones who did are the ones who are still Alliance High Elves today. And the High Elves of Dalaran would have been part of the founding of the human "Alliance" in it's current form. They are still High Elves and still loyal to the Alliance today.

    Blood Elves abandoned ship, but the High Elves never did. They aren't the "first out" because they aren't out at all.
    No, it's clearly a mistake. He mentioned the Alliance, not the relationship between Humans and High Elves, you can't conflate the two when there is a clear distinction.

    As for that relationship, the majority of High Elves were xenophobic isolationists who only interacted with humanity out of desperation during the troll wars and generally seemed to have restricted any major interactions afterwards to the city of Dalaran which hosted an expatriate population. Even then, Prince Kael was criticised for wanting to spending more time in Dalaran than he did in Quel'thalas, and that developed into a deep insecurity within him.

    AND during the foundation of the Alliance, as I said, the High Elves were the very last in and the very first out, an approach consistent with their aloof superiority and desire to be left alone (this attitude was apparently beaten out of them scourge, which has forced them to engage with the wider world or perish).

    In fact, when the Kingdom of Quel'thalas quit the Alliance, they were still High Elves as the third war was still several years away. The High Elves very much abandoned ship. You simply cannot equate the few outliers in High Elven society who actually wanted to learn about the outside world as being more important than the vast majority of their people.
    Last edited by Obelisk Kai; 2018-04-21 at 06:18 PM.

  3. #1843
    Quote Originally Posted by FlubberPuddy View Post
    "When Quel'Thalas left the Alliance, some high elves chose to remain with their allies over their kingdom, and to this day still support the Alliance."

    Directly from: https://wow.gamepedia.com/High_elf

    So yeah my point still stands 100% of Quel'thalas wasn't on board with it.
    I like how you try to twist numbers given every possible opportunity to make it seem as if huge numbers of high elves remained loyal to the Alliance. The important thing is that High Elven nation was never an important member or even founding member of the Alliance, they joined simply because they couldn't handle the trolls, they sent minimal help even when the orcs were ravaging southern Eastern Kingdoms, and bailed at the first opportunity when it came to share the burden of containing the defeated horde.

    And all of this happened while they still called themselves High Elves, so you have zero excuse to blame it on the Blood Elves.
    When we looked at the relics of the precursors, we saw the height civilization can attain.
    When we looked at their ruins, we marked the danger of that height.
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  4. #1844
    Quote Originally Posted by corebit View Post
    The High Elves bailed on the Alliance before the Blood Elves were even a thing.
    There are High Elves in the Alliance today, which you know good and well. The whole context of this was a player saying he wanted to play the High Elves loyal to the Alliance.

  5. #1845
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    Quote Originally Posted by corebit View Post
    I like how you try to twist numbers given every possible opportunity to make it seem as if huge numbers of high elves remained loyal to the Alliance. The important thing is that High Elven nation was never an important member or even founding member of the Alliance, they joined simply because they couldn't handle the trolls, they sent minimal help even when the orcs were ravaging southern Eastern Kingdoms, and bailed at the first opportunity when it came to share the burden of containing the defeated horde.

    And all of this happened while they still called themselves High Elves, so you have zero excuse to blame it on the Blood Elves.
    That's a nice history lesson you're sharing, but when people are asking for High Elves most are talking about WoW representation of them, and WoW representation of High Elves is more than some already playable races. You can keep sticking to the old history, but life and the game moves forward

  6. #1846
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    Quote Originally Posted by Traycor View Post
    There are High Elves in the Alliance today, which you know good and well. The whole context of this was a player saying he wanted to play the High Elves loyal to the Alliance.
    But that player is basing part of his reasoning on a mistake, that the High Elves were a founding member and long standing member of the Alliance when they were not.

    The state of Quel'thalas was last in and first out.

    This idea that High Elves and Humans were long standing allies, shoulder to shoulder across thousands of years, is a genre trope rooted in tolkien's works that he is applying to the Warcraft universe uncritically without even thinking that he could be, as he is, wrong.

    That there a tiny number of Elves in the Alliance today is irrelevant to the wider point of how wrong this assumption is.

  7. #1847
    Quote Originally Posted by corebit View Post
    I like how you try to twist numbers given every possible opportunity to make it seem as if huge numbers of high elves remained loyal to the Alliance.
    10% of all survivors is fairly significant percentage.

    Quote Originally Posted by corebit View Post
    The important thing is that High Elven nation was never an important member or even founding member of the Alliance, they joined simply because they couldn't handle the trolls, they sent minimal help even when the orcs were ravaging southern Eastern Kingdoms, and bailed at the first opportunity when it came to share the burden of containing the defeated horde.

    And all of this happened while they still called themselves High Elves, so you have zero excuse to blame it on the Blood Elves.
    But in context, we weren't talking about the High Elven nation (i.e. Silvermoon or Quel'Thalas). Those elves are all Blood Elves now. We're talking about the High Elves. The game clearly distinguishes High Elves and Blood Elves. The High Elves were loyal and remained in the Alliance. They are also the High Elves who, in past wars, honored their human allegiance when the others (who became Blood Elves) didn't care.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    But that player is basing part of his reasoning on a mistake, that the High Elves were a founding member and long standing member of the Alliance when they were not.

    The state of Quel'thalas was last in and first out.

    This idea that High Elves and Humans were long standing allies, shoulder to shoulder across thousands of years, is a genre trope rooted in tolkien's works that he is applying to the Warcraft universe uncritically without even thinking that he could be, as he is, wrong.

    That there a tiny number of Elves in the Alliance today is irrelevant to the wider point of how wrong this assumption is.
    Fallacy. You've been reading your sig too much. He's referring to the High Elves. That's the faction of Thalassian elves that are loyal to the Alliance. And these elves were part of every iteration of the Alliance, including its founding. And they were allies enough for thousands of years that some of them felt compelled to go help the humans even when their own people thought it was ridiculous.

    A big part of the whole story of the High Elves (even back in Warcraft II) is that they stand apart from what Quel'Thalas (i.e. Blood Elves) think is best.

  8. #1848
    Quote Originally Posted by Traycor View Post
    10% of all survivors is fairly significant percentage.
    And where did you get that 10% from? For all we know the High Elven remnants could be 1%.

    Quote Originally Posted by Traycor View Post
    But in context, we weren't talking about the High Elven nation (i.e. Silvermoon or Quel'Thalas). Those elves are all Blood Elves now. We're talking about the High Elves. The game clearly distinguishes High Elves and Blood Elves. The High Elves were loyal and remained in the Alliance. They are also the High Elves who, in past wars, honored their human allegiance when the others (who became Blood Elves) didn't care.
    The context we are talking about is your choice to highlight another poster's text saying the High Elves are founding members of the Alliance. Please point me in the lore where the High Elves are "founding" members of the Alliance or even "core" members, when everything presented so far shows the Human Kingdoms were the original founders, Quel'thalas was the last to join, and it was one of the first to bail.
    When we looked at the relics of the precursors, we saw the height civilization can attain.
    When we looked at their ruins, we marked the danger of that height.
    - Keeper Annals

  9. #1849
    Legendary! Obelisk Kai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Traycor View Post
    10% of all survivors is fairly significant percentage.



    But in context, we weren't talking about the High Elven nation (i.e. Silvermoon or Quel'Thalas). Those elves are all Blood Elves now. We're talking about the High Elves. The game clearly distinguishes High Elves and Blood Elves. The High Elves were loyal and remained in the Alliance. They are also the High Elves who, in past wars, honored their human allegiance when the others (who became Blood Elves) didn't care.
    But the events we are discussing occurred before the Blood Elves were even a thing. You are attempting to give moral equivalence to a tiny, tiny minority against the vast majority of their countrymen.

    For the vast majority of their history, there has been NO special bond between Quel'thalas and humanity. If any human nation had a special bond with Quel'thalas it was Dalaran, and they're currently neutral.

    That a tiny number of High Elves had such an affinity is irrelevant.

    Overall, High Elves are not saintly, noble beings in whose presence everyone must bask.

    They were selfish, arrogant, entitled jerks with a superiority complex and when offered the chance to be a 'founding member' of the Alliance they turned it down flat and then had to be compelled by ancient blood oath.

    To which they responded with the bear minimum of forces they could.

    P.S. That 10% figure has almost certainly dropped a bit with the destruction of quel'lithien (well not much, it's just a hut but everyone thinks these huts are home to huge high elf populations), theramore and the campaigns the Silver Covenant have fought in.
    Last edited by Obelisk Kai; 2018-04-21 at 06:45 PM.

  10. #1850
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    Quote Originally Posted by corebit View Post
    The context we are talking about is your choice to highlight another poster's text saying the High Elves are founding members of the Alliance. Please point me in the lore where the High Elves are "founding" members of the Alliance or even "core" members, when everything presented so far shows they were isolationist and selfish from the start.
    So you want to argue over a minor thing that poster posted which is akin to fat fingering a letter, to discredit the rest of his post? The rest of his post still stands and damn right they were "core" members even Metzen mentions them when he talked about the Alliance of Lordaeron during WoD time

    EDIT: I'm laughing so much right now, this is incredibly hilarious now the anti-helfers can't deny the presence of Alliance High Elves in current WoW so try to go back to history and talk about the kingdom of Quel'thalas as if the current Alliance High Elves in WoW all 100% actually agreed with their government's choices.
    @Traycor inhale that sweet victory ^___^b!
    Last edited by FlubberPuddy; 2018-04-21 at 06:47 PM.

  11. #1851
    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    But the events we are discussing occurred before the Blood Elves were even a thing.
    True. But the Thalassian elves who didn't care about the Alliance became the Blood Elf faction of Thalassian elves. The ones who cared about the Alliance are the High Elf faction of Thalassian elves, as clearly represented in game. And the differences were pointed out as far back as Warcraft II. The only elves we had were the ones who were loyal (and today would be the High Elves on the Alliance side). We didn't see the elves back then who would today be called Blood Elves.

    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    For the vast majority of their history, there has been NO special bond between Quel'thalas and humanity.
    Then why did some High Elves come to their aid? They didn't do it because of some history lesson in a book that said they owed them a favor. These High Elves felt compelled to go and die to honor their old allegiance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    If any human nation had a special bond with Quel'thalas it was Dalaran, and they're currently neutral.
    The human leadership of the city-state are neutral (if Alliance leaning). But the Silver Covenant is clearly loyal to the Alliance and is not neutral.

    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    That a tiny number of High Elves had such an affinity is irrelevant.
    Blizzard obviously doesn't see the Silver Covenant as irrelevant, because they've shown up in many important parts of the story for many years and many expansions. You may want them to be irrelevant, but that's your personal desire, and one Blizzard clearly does not share.

  12. #1852
    Quote Originally Posted by FlubberPuddy View Post
    So you want to argue over a minor thing that poster posted which is akin to fat fingering a letter, to discredit the rest of his post? The rest of his post still stands and damn right they were "core" members even Metzen mentions them when he talked about the Alliance of Lordaeron during WoD time
    It's not just that post though. Every single post from the high elf camp has shown they have almost zero lore knowledge, and just invent things on the spot or work entirely from headcanon.

    Quote Originally Posted by FlubberPuddy View Post
    EDIT: I'm laughing so much right now, this is incredibly hilarious now the anti-helfers can't deny the presence of Alliance High Elves in current WoW so try to go back to history and talk about the kingdom of Quel'thalas as if the current Alliance High Elves in WoW all 100% actually agreed with their government's choices.
    @Traycor inhale that sweet victory ^___^b!
    Awww how cute, deep inside you know very well Blizzard ain't giving you high elves, so it's gnawing you so hard you have to mask it by pretending you're laughing.
    And what victory are we talking here? Unless are you one of those tin-foil users who believes the blue extending the Helf thread is akin to them confirming High Elves.
    When we looked at the relics of the precursors, we saw the height civilization can attain.
    When we looked at their ruins, we marked the danger of that height.
    - Keeper Annals

  13. #1853
    Legendary! Obelisk Kai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Traycor View Post
    True. But the Thalassian elves who didn't care about the Alliance became the Blood Elf faction of Thalassian elves. The ones who cared about the Alliance are the High Elf faction of Thalassian elves, as clearly represented in game. And the differences were pointed out as far back as Warcraft II. The only elves we had were the ones who were loyal (and today would be the High Elves on the Alliance side). We didn't see the elves back then who would today be called Blood Elves.
    The Elves in Warcraft 2 were part of a force sent by Quel'thalas. You have no idea how many stayed and how many went home. At a certain point in the campaign, the entire nation was fighting the Horde. This force was not an independent entity, the individuals within it made their own choices in the years ahead but you can't point at the Warcraft 2 units and say 'they all became Silver Covenant'.

    Most of them probably went home.



    Quote Originally Posted by Traycor View Post
    Then why did some High Elves come to their aid? They didn't do it because of some history lesson in a book that said they owed them a favor. These High Elves felt compelled to go and die to honor their old allegiance.
    Actually that is literally why they did it. Because of their aid during the Troll Wars, the (for once) grateful High Elves of Quel'thalas swore an oath that they would offer assistance should any living descendant of King Thoradin request it.

    Anduin Lothar, the last descendant, invoked the oath, and under their own sense of honour they could not refuse, but they sent the bare minimum of forces they could.



    Quote Originally Posted by Traycor View Post
    The human leadership of the city-state are neutral (if Alliance leaning). But the Silver Covenant is clearly loyal to the Alliance and is not neutral.
    The Silver Covenant is also a small militia comprised almost entirely of ex Farstriders and a few Dalarani Mages. They are not the basis for a major power within the Alliance on the level of Stormwind, Ironforge, Gnomeregan or even the Void Elves.



    Quote Originally Posted by Traycor View Post
    Blizzard obviously doesn't see the Silver Covenant as irrelevant, because they've shown up in many important parts of the story for many years and many expansions. You may want them to be irrelevant, but that's your personal desire, and one Blizzard clearly does not share.
    We have no idea how Blizzard sees the Silver Covenant, and you have a similar desire to magnify their role and importance out of all proportion to what they actually do, which is be in the background.

    And the only story moment I can recall them playing an actual role in was the purge of Dalaran followed by the isle of thunder. Managing a tournament doesn't count. Nor does holding the door open for Alliance adventurers to enter Zul'Aman.

  14. #1854
    Quote Originally Posted by corebit View Post
    And where did you get that 10% from? For all we know the High Elven remnants could be 1%.
    Blizzard was the one throwing around the 10% number. So 10% of all survivors, or 1% of the original population.

    However, with Chronicles those numbers may have been retconned. Now that Dalaran is specifically described as being evacuated before it was destroyed, that means many more High Elves survived than originally thought. So 10% very well might be low.

    Kael'Thas took 15% of the Blood Elves, who became the NPC villains from Outland and Quel'Danas, as well as the Demon Hunters.

    High Elves are 10% (or more. How much more we don't know)

    That leaves the Silvermoon Blood Elves as 75% of the remaining population.

    Void Elves - We have no hard numbers as to what they amount to, but as a "crack squad" they likely are not numerous enough to have a percentage.

  15. #1855
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    Quote Originally Posted by corebit View Post
    It's not just that post though. Every single post from the high elf camp has shown they have almost zero lore knowledge, and just invent things on the spot or work entirely from headcanon.
    So the related High Elf stuff that poster mentions pertaining to each expansion is headcanon? Those things actually never happened, in-game, at all?

    Quote Originally Posted by corebit View Post
    Awww how cute, deep inside you know very well Blizzard ain't giving you high elves, so it's gnawing you so hard you have to mask it by pretending you're laughing.
    And what victory are we talking here? Unless are you one of those tin-foil users who believes the blue extending the Helf thread is akin to them confirming High Elves.
    If one was to take an objective look at the circumstances and recent developments. One would suspect that something will come from the High Elf camp Blizzard will at least acknowledge in some fashion, either a yes or no, but it will be unambiguous this time.

    The victory at the recent level of anti-helf arguments. It's truly something to behold gone are talking about present-day stuff and supporting evidence, instead anti-helfer must now recede back to the past and discuss inconsequential events that have no bearing on the present day situation and requests. A sight to behold indeed.

  16. #1856
    Quote Originally Posted by Traycor View Post
    True. But the Thalassian elves who didn't care about the Alliance became the Blood Elf faction of Thalassian elves. The ones who cared about the Alliance are the High Elf faction of Thalassian elves, as clearly represented in game. And the differences were pointed out as far back as Warcraft II. The only elves we had were the ones who were loyal (and today would be the High Elves on the Alliance side). We didn't see the elves back then who would today be called Blood Elves.
    How do you know all the remaining High Elves did it out of "loyalty to the Alliance" and not in the case of Alleria and many others, to protect Quel'thalas from future attacks?

    Quote Originally Posted by FlubberPuddy View Post
    The victory at the recent level of anti-helf arguments. It's truly something to behold gone are talking about present-day stuff and supporting evidence, instead anti-helfer must now recede back to the past and discuss inconsequential events that have no bearing on the present day situation and requests. A sight to behold indeed.
    You must be blind then, cause every post from Obelisk Kai, Friendlyimmolation, and others come straight with direct lore references. The same cannot be said from the Helf camp.
    Last edited by corebit; 2018-04-21 at 07:16 PM.
    When we looked at the relics of the precursors, we saw the height civilization can attain.
    When we looked at their ruins, we marked the danger of that height.
    - Keeper Annals

  17. #1857
    Quote Originally Posted by corebit View Post
    It's not just that post though. Every single post from the high elf camp has shown they have almost zero lore knowledge, and just invent things on the spot or work entirely from headcanon.
    Quote Originally Posted by corebit View Post
    Please point me in the lore where the High Elves are "founding" members of the Alliance or even "core" members, when everything presented so far shows the Human Kingdoms were the original founders
    The human kingdom of Dalaran had a significant population of High Elves and these same elves are still loyal to the Alliance in the Silver Covenant. Chronicles even points out that elves in Dalaran had divided loyalties because the people of Quel'Thalas distrusted Kael'Thas because he was off with the human kingdom. This is the obvious early divide that would later become the Blood Elf/High Elf divide.

    Quote Originally Posted by corebit View Post
    Quel'thalas was the last to join, and it was one of the first to bail.
    Exactly, Quel'Thalas elves became the Blood Elf faction. The High Elves (who were part of Dalaran and the founding of the Alliance) never left and remain today.

    This is emphasized by Dalaran being neutral:
    Quel'Thalas doesn't want to help the Alliance against the Horde - High Elves go to help anyway
    Quel'Thalas (now the Silvermoon Blood Elves) leave the Alliance - High Elves remain anyway
    Dalaran goes neutral - High Elves (especially the Silver Covenant faction) remain Alliance loyal anyway

    The pattern is obvious and Blizzard has been very consistent in their portrayal of the High Elves, which is different from Blood Elves and the nation of Quel'Thalas. No "headcanon" needed.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by corebit View Post
    How do you know all the remaining High Elves did it out of "loyalty to the Alliance" and not in the case of Alleria and many others, to protect Quel'thalas from future attacks?
    This is a valid point. I'm sure many of the High Elves did this for practical reasons and sighted the old allegiance as a means of gaining support. For context, we can judge their subsequent behavior. Many of these High Elves remained in the Alliance afterwards, even when their nation went to war with the Alliance. So the High Elves felt very strongly about their ties to the Alliance beyond immediate practical concerns, even when the Blood Elf nation did not.

  18. #1858
    Traycor, there are some really good customisation concepts on the Discord channel that are really worth looking at. First, there's Silverrest from Argent Dawn EU with these brilliant ideas:

    - - - ETA - - - Silverrest just made this as well:

    - - - /ETA - - -
    (Posted with permission.)

    Personally, I tried adding night elf markings:


    Furtine came up with this brilliant idea that slightly alters the high elf male silhouette:

    (Also posted with permission.)
    Last edited by Azrathel; 2018-04-21 at 08:05 PM.

  19. #1859
    Woot! We made it to 100 pages! Congrats everyone



    Typically I'm not a big forum-goer. I only made this account to create this thread, and it's been an incredible success with over 115,000 page views. When this started, I had no idea if anyone else was posting about it or if they even cared. It's been gratifying to see others share the same ideas, and this has done far better than I could have hoped. At this point, I think my work here is done. We've compiled some fun concepts and ideas, and I'm pretty sure Blizzard has at least seen some of them.

    There have also been hints and acknowledgements from Blizzard that the request has been heard. Regardless of how this shakes out, I'm satisfied that we took our shot for something we've wanted for over a decade. It's been an incredible team effort.

    ___________________

    @ObeliskKai @Syegfryed @protip and others:

    Things can get hairy sometimes, so thank you for your passion for the game and your continued willingness to engage on this topic. I wish you all the best!

    ___________________

    Quote Originally Posted by Azrathel View Post
    Traycor, there are some really good customisation concepts on the Discord channel that are really worth looking at. First, there's Silverrest from Argent Dawn EU with these brilliant ideas:
    Those are awesome! There are some brilliant ideas in there. If they were put together into a side by side so you can see them all at once, it would be even better.

    You and anyone else who wants to are more than welcome to keep posting new ideas/concepts/etc into the thread. Even though I don't expect to keep posting, I might drop in from time to time to see what people have created.

    Thanks again everyone! Good bye! You're all amazing!
    Last edited by Traycor; 2018-04-21 at 08:43 PM.

  20. #1860
    From what I was told that whole map is fleshed out from tid bits of lore but the zone was not added to the map. It was supposed to be a part of cataclysm with the Dragon Isles that had a Raid located on it that still hasn't been brought back since early Vanilla Alpha. They even have the Hearthglen Dock on the fan map which the Argent Crusade lead by Tirion Fordring used to get to the Broken Shore so fast and perish sadly

    P.S. Sorry if i'm reposting this Traycor. I got a notification saying it was a failed post so I'm just going to repost it just in case lol

    - - - Updated - - -

    I still think this post could really benefit from an Imgur so you don't lose any of the art and ideas :P

    - - - Updated - - -

    Also i found this Upright Blood Elf model. https://www.google.ca/search?q=uprig...T9UKHXU6eEcIM: It was originally in a post somewhere on MMO but I lost it lol. I figured they could use this upright model for the High Elves since they didn't use it for the Blood Elves

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