Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[Kyriani]

You're making assumptions based purely on the model. Assumptions that the devs don't seem to support:

https://blizzardwatch.com/2018/04/05...-day-jimmy-lo/

Travis: So, Thin Man and Fat Man are what we call them internally. And no, they’re not intended to be a different race, [they’re] just variants on Kul Tirans. So, generally, when we’re spawning up Kul Tiras on the design side, we looked at using them as kind of our… maybe it’s a little bit like, ‘The big guy’s the bouncer!’ Or, ‘The big guy’s the ruffian who’s got a little guy up by the neck! And then the little guy’s more the scoundrel and they’re always holding daggers or leanin’ up against something,’ and, I don’t know, it just gives us a little more flavor and texture to the world.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Kul_Tiran_(playable)

Non-playable Kul Tiran human models include thin, normal and fat body types. The playable Kul Tirans use the fat body type. They are not intended to be a separate race, they are simply variants on Kul Tirans made because Blizzard wanted bigger and smaller models to fit the various NPC roles and add more flavor to the world. They are not biologically different from other humans.

They further added at BlizzCon 2018 that Kul Tirans tend to be big guys because they live a tough life, a sea-faring life, and so on. They wanted this to show in their physique, so they made (some of) them big. Once more, they thus did this for contextual and worldbuilding reasons.
All in all, Blizzard has affirmed and re-affirmed that Kul Tirans have different body types for completely different reasons, mainly variety.

But the Drust fantheory is very deeply ingrained. Which is weird because people don't try to come up with "explanations" for why some Kul Tirans are thin, only for why some Kul Tirans are big, so looks like the fanbase is pretty selective.

The answer is just that there is no "why". Kul Tirans have different body types because it made for a more realistic civilization.

Kul Tirans can be Druids because they learned from the Thornspeakers, not because the Thornspeakers begat offspring with Kul Tiran settlers.

[Ignaz]

he would

As long as it hasn't happened, everything remains as assumption

his name is Wim Hof

Wim Hof (besides being an isolated case) is a clear example of adaptation and not of inheritance. As scientific studies have shown, that man has developed a method of suppressing his immune system by endowing him not with resistance to cold, but with abolition of reaction to extreme cold.
In addition, Wim Hof uses a special breathing method accompanied by meditation that prepares him to control his body temperature through the use of brown fat as fuel to create heat through an instinctive process called bulgariously as "tremor."

His body is not even resistant to cold, since if he does not prepare himself, it was shown that he can suffer the same damage from exposure as other people.

Also, it remains an isolated case (an epidemiological phenomenon) that cannot be used as an example to compare a normal population.

this also show the circle

What circle? a straight line cannot make a circle (are you trolling?)

no, they aren't

Enlighten me.

blood elves priests using shadow magic and the xalatoth are not void elves, they are still blood elves with their own race thematic
you are confusing race and class

I'm not confusing anything, I'm using your analogy

there is no different people faction identity, there is just one

yours?

it would be, if blizzard itself didn't already explained the concept of faction identity and explained the very reason why they didn't put high elves instead of void elves

When they decreed the concept of faction identity? show me please.

more than a few years?

nope. if you don't adapt, you die. the world is hostile and if you have the luxury of taking `` more than a few years '' you will not be able to fit in.

by now, roughly 8 or 10 years

More than enough

not a canon difference

it's still a difference you can check. It doesn't have to be set in stone for you to see it

they retconed the elf skin color saying it was always like that, its what retcons do

You didn't answer any of my questions

What did they adjust in the story? (narratively speaking)
No relevant character among the Helves have changed their skin color and even if they did, their skin color had no narrative weight in the story.

What continuity do they break by changing the skin of the characters? Is there a racial struggle?

nope

Yes there is (tickle cheeks).

and you suggest that we just drag this forever?

until we both agree or either leaves. You choose.

If the drust went to live in the kul'tirans society,and Ulfar not, its obvious that there was crossbreed between then

wut!? prove it. what you say (to me) doesn't make sense.
It is like saying that if you see that a man and a woman enter a house alone, it is because they are going to have children. It's pure assumption not a fact.

of course he will say "kul'tirans descendants", it is not wrong, and did not contradict the previous statement, they are kul'tiran descendant and drust, this is more supported with only the big kul'tirans being druids, only the ones with drust characteristics

So why did Ulfar not say "our descendants" and only mention the kul'tiran.

except their obviously appearance resembling the drust aka the vrykul?

It is not a verifiable fact, just a coincidence until proven otherwise.
Who knows, at the rate we are going; even Blizzard could prove you right... someday.

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You're making assumptions based purely on the model. Assumptions that the devs don't seem to support:

https://blizzardwatch.com/2018/04/05...-day-jimmy-lo/
Travis: So, Thin Man and Fat Man are what we call them internally. And no, they’re not intended to be a different race, [they’re] just variants on Kul Tirans. So, generally, when we’re spawning up Kul Tiras on the design side, we looked at using them as kind of our… maybe it’s a little bit like, ‘The big guy’s the bouncer!’ Or, ‘The big guy’s the ruffian who’s got a little guy up by the neck! And then the little guy’s more the scoundrel and they’re always holding daggers or leanin’ up against something,’ and, I don’t know, it just gives us a little more flavor and texture to the world.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Kul_Tiran_(playable)
Non-playable Kul Tiran human models include thin, normal and fat body types. The playable Kul Tirans use the fat body type. They are not intended to be a separate race, they are simply variants on Kul Tirans made because Blizzard wanted bigger and smaller models to fit the various NPC roles and add more flavor to the world. They are not biologically different from other humans.

@Syegfryed there is your "word of god"

[Syegfryed]

As long as it hasn't happened, everything remains as assumption

rly? come on now

Wim Hof (besides being an isolated case) is a clear example of adaptation and not of inheritance

if no one can condition himself in doing that, then its not just conditioning, and again, there is things that give you rpedisposition to that, and is everything ruled by the gene code, deletion and addition of genes

Enlighten me.

there is no symbolism here, pandaren in both factions are the same race

yours?

Blizzard

When they decreed the concept of faction identity? show me please.

when they were asked why void elves instead of high elves

nope. if you don't adapt, you die. the world is hostile and if you have the luxury of taking `` more than a few years '' you will not be able to fit in.

and sometimes you can just force adaptation to go quickly

More than enough

its sure isn't, even more with elves who are way egocentric to just became point ears humans in a few years

it's still a difference you can check. It doesn't have to be set in stone for you to see it

its not a vallid and canon difference, simple as that

You didn't answer any of my questions

your questions have nothing to do with he subject, its a retcon to add more colors to the elves, regardless of their reasons

just because there is inclusion reason, or whatever, don't mean its not a retcon of the elf skin color

until we both agree or either leaves. You choose.

we will never agree, and apparently no one will leave

wut!? prove it. what you say (to me) doesn't make sense.

if you put a small population inside another, is just the common way of things, like you said previously, it's still something you can check. It doesn't have to be set in stone for you to see it

So why did Ulfar not say "our descendants" and only mention the kul'tiran.

because he didn't have any descendants, there is no need for him to be included

and he said the thornspeeker descendants

It is not a verifiable fact, just a coincidence until proven otherwise.

suddenly a breed of humans reach 8ft+ and are way too close to the drust who joined their society long ago

sure a 'coincidence"

there is your "word of god"

not intended to be a separated race at first, don't mean they do not became a separated race later.

They in fact, became a different race, as an allied race;

And Ulfar quotes came after those interviews, Blizzard nowadays have a historic in backtracking what they say if make sense.

[Ignaz]

if no one can condition himself in doing that, then its not just conditioning

Actually, the studies carried out by scientists made it clear that it is conditioning, since other people have managed to match its results. they even carried out the same studies on his brother (who lived a sedentary life) after using the Wim Hof method; where they found no difference in their reaction.

there is things that give you rpedisposition to that

Nope. Read the whole case.

there is no symbolism here, pandaren in both factions are the same race

Thalassian elves in both factions? Wasn't that your premise?

Blizzard
when they were asked why void elves instead of high elves

Source, please.

and sometimes you can just force adaptation to go quickly

Exactly. If being an immigrant, you do not adapt quickly or combine your culture or even adopt the culture of another country; It can go so badly that you would have to return to your country of origin (on your own, at best) or live like a homeless person until someone else gives you a hand.

its sure isn't

so for you, an immigrant has to spend more than 10 years to adapt to a host nation. I am right?

even more with elves who are way egocentric to just became point ears humans in a few years

that they have survived so far proves otherwise

its not a vallid and canon difference, simple as that

but it's still a difference you can see.

your questions have nothing to do with he subject, its a retcon to add more colors to the elves, regardless of their reasons

just because there is inclusion reason, or whatever, don't mean its not a retcon of the elf skin color

It has to do and you do not answer it because I would throw down your point.

if not, answer me and prove otherwise.
Here I will leave it again to save you the search and I will also leave your data collection about retcon:

Retroactive continuity, or retcon for short, is a literary device in which established diegetic 'facts' in the plot of a fictional work are adjusted, ignored, or contradicted by a subsequently published work which breaks continuity with the former.

There are various motivations for applying retroactive continuity, including:

To accommodate desired aspects of sequels or derivative works which would otherwise be ruled out.
In response to negative fan reception of previous stories.
To correct and overcome errors or problems identified in the prior work since its publication.
To change how the prior work should be interpreted.
To match reality, when assumptions or projections of the future are later proven wrong

What did they adjust in the story? (narratively speaking)
No relevant character among the Helves have changed their skin color and even if they did, their skin color had no narrative weight in the story.

What continuity do they break by changing the skin of the characters? Is there a racial struggle?

we will never agree, and apparently no one will leave

Happy the day of our marriage then - I raise my glass -

if you put a small population inside another, is just the common way of things

So if you put a small population of lions in a pack of cats, they will breed. Absurd...

because he didn't have any descendants, there is no need for him to be included
and he said the thornspeeker descendants

He is speaking of two population groups, of which he belongs to one. Why should it not be included if he is not talking about individuals?

suddenly a breed of humans reach 8ft+ and are way too close to the drust who joined their society long ago

sure a 'coincidence"

not intended to be a separated race at first, don't mean they do not became a separated race later.

They in fact, became a different race, as an allied race;

And Ulfar quotes came after those interviews, Blizzard nowadays have a historic in backtracking what they say if make sense.

Do you care about ''the word of God'' only when it combines you?

That only reveals your double standards when fighting for all these years against people who say that Helves are a different race and tell them that ''the word of God'' says otherwise.

[Kyriani]

rly? come on now
not intended to be a separated race at first, don't mean they do not became a separated race later.

They in fact, became a different race, as an allied race;

And Ulfar quotes came after those interviews, Blizzard nowadays have a historic in backtracking what they say if make sense.

If Blizzard actually does go backtrack and add lore saying that modern Kul Tirans have some Drust ancestry then you'll be right... but until then you're just making assumptions based on circumstantial evidence that runs contrary to existing developer interviews.

And speaking of the interview, the date of that interview was Apr 5, 2018.

Since we know Blizzard starts working on expansions years before we ever see an alpha or beta, the Ulfar quote was likely already written before that interview, and even if it wasn't that doesn't change anything.

Again, if Blizzard later adds new lore saying that modern Kul Tirans share some Drust ancestry then you'll have a point but not before that happens. I'm not saying it can't be true. I'm just saying that until we have solid lore saying so, it's only an assumption right now.

[Kallisto]

Frankly I hope blood elves also get Dark Ranger customization options. I imagine it'd be very interesting to RP as a Dark Ranger who struggled between their loyalty to Sylvanas and their loyalty to Silvermoon, the home they gave their lives to defend.

After you kill N'zoth dark ranger Velonara is near the embassy and her tone is "fuck sylvanas, the Sin'dorei are my kin as much as the forsaken and many like me feel the same. "

(She's the same dark ranger that had Moorgoth listing over her in the hunter class hall.)

[Ardenaso]

Frankly I hope blood elves also get Dark Ranger customization options. I imagine it'd be very interesting to RP as a Dark Ranger who struggled between their loyalty to Sylvanas and their loyalty to Silvermoon, the home they gave their lives to defend.

Dark "Blood Knights" wouldn't make sense anymore since they're Red Silver Hand now, unless Blizzard makes it so they'll be TBC Blood Knights again

[matrix123mko]

Dark "Blood Knights" wouldn't make sense anymore since they're Red Silver Hand now, unless Blizzard makes it so they'll be TBC Blood Knights again

Bold of you to call them red. They often use blue tabards.

[Vaedan]

If the drust went to live in the kul'tirans society,and Ulfar not, its obvious that there was crossbreed between then

of course he will say "kul'tirans descendants", it is not wrong, and did not contradict the previous statement, they are kul'tiran descendant and drust, this is more supported with only the big kul'tirans being druids, only the ones with drust characteristics


except their obviously appearance resembling the drust aka the vrykul?

Except being druids is much more likely based on their culture and society, rather than race? You know, there is an orc druid NPC in Ashran, does it mean that orcs have "druidic" genes as well? Using this drust magic is again, given by a culture and a practise they were tought. Kul tiran druids were trained by thornspeakers, not by cenarion circle, so that they are the only one who wields this power. I'm pretty sure that if some gilneans would ask thornspeakers for training, they would be able to use drust druidism. They already did exactly the same thing with cenarion druidism.

Also, drust are said to be descendants of vrykul, but they are shown to look like humans in game. There is a quest where you go around old drust cairns and you invoke images of past. Drust are shown as humans (regular stormwindian model), not as vrykul. In that case, even if both group mix and have offsprings, they would be, again, human.

[Frenchvince]

OMG I want these hairstyles for the void elves , it would suit them too well !



I like the braids plated on the side, for a high-elf Ranger, it's perfect.

[Syegfryed]

Thalassian elves in both factions? Wasn't that your premise?

not the same race of elves in both factions?

Source, please.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUik...outu.be&t=2780

Exactly. If being an immigrant, you do not adapt quickly or combine your culture or even adopt the culture of another country; It can go so badly that you would have to return to your country of origin (on your own, at best) or live like a homeless person until someone else gives you a hand.

And since elves are not forced and humans don't enforce that, and elves being egocentric as they are, we can rule out this theory

so for you, an immigrant has to spend more than 10 years to adapt to a host nation. I am right?

in the case of elves? mostly.

that they have survived so far proves otherwise

how they are showed ingame, just a thallasian elf, show they are not human elves yet

but it's still a difference you can see.

its not a real canon difference, then its pointless

It has to do and you do not answer it because I would throw down your point.

its right there, to "match reality" and to change how work(elf skin color) should be implemented

So if you put a small population of lions in a pack of cats, they will breed. Absurd...

if you put a small population of tigers, or vice versa, they will yeah

He is speaking of two population groups, of which he belongs to one. Why should it not be included if he is not talking about individuals?

because he did not went to live with the kul'tirans, and he do not have descendants

Do you care about ''the word of God'' only when it combines you?

do you? cause i always see people trowing out left and right that elves are different, besides they being exactly the same, and throwing out that kul'tirans and humans are exactly the same, besides their absurdly obvious difference, that is the double standard im seeing

Besides, nothing in the "word of god" rule out the kul'tiran having drust blood

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If Blizzard actually does go backtrack and add lore saying that modern Kul Tirans have some Drust ancestry then you'll be right... but until then you're just making assumptions based on circumstantial evidence that runs contrary to existing developer interviews.

Ulfar quotes came after the interviews, and nothing in there rly proves they do not have drust ancestry/blood

Except being druids is much more likely based on their culture and society, rather than race?

then where is the normal and thin human drust? only the ones with the resemble of the drust are druids, too much of a "coincidence", especially with the ulfar quotes

Also, drust are said to be descendants of vrykul, but they are shown to look like humans in game. There is a quest where you go around old drust cairns and you invoke images of past. Drust are shown as humans (regular stormwindian model), not as vrykul. In that case, even if both group mix and have offsprings, they would be, again, human.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Sef_Iwen is how to be a Drust with a female Vrykul model, Gorak tul is also showed to look like a Vrykul, in the artwork drust resembles vrykuls

and vrykuls are ''big humans'''' anyway

[Strippling]

And you're doing it with the night elves too - "night elves no longer live in such cities" " night elves are culturally changed that means they can't live in pretty cities, "night elves love harmony with nature, so living in a pretty city somehow measn they do not", "modern night elf architecture is different - so let's ignore Darnasus, and lets ignore the "modern" architecture that shows up in presudnering ics and rural settings too", "night elves hate the arcane and shun that lifestyle - so naturally means they can't live in beautiful cities they built"... bogus nonsense, all a pretext too - "horde has these lovely assets, alliance you can't have them" meanwhile alliance fans are like "you realise all those things belong to the night elves and high elves right

The recent datamined night elf customizations indicate Blizzard are doubling down on the "nature" theme of night elves, not the "city dwelling" theme. Night elves have changed culturally, which makes sense as they have moved past living in lavish, majestic, magical cities. Any future city for night elves will likely be heavily similar to darnassus (ie nature themed), in accordance with their recent customization options.

[ravenmoon]

The recent datamined night elf customizations indicate Blizzard are doubling down on the "nature" theme of night elves, not the "city dwelling" theme. Night elves have changed culturally, which makes sense as they have moved past living in lavish, majestic, magical cities. Any future city for night elves will likely be heavily similar to darnassus (ie nature themed), in accordance with their recent customization options.

If tomorrow Blizzard announce the night elves are now forest elves, life will contine. we;ve needed many of those nature customisations they gave, now we just need some more highborne ones. Got a couple, some hairstyles and a necklace, but I'm very pleased with the natre options, they're 4 of5 on my list, however the quanitty is still very small.

You need to remember that the customisation changes aren't complete yet, and until they make it no longer the case, you have to also remember night elves can still be mages, demon hunters and priests, not just druids.

I don'tt hink anyone expectred the night elf customisations not to have some forest elf effects. .. and blizzard can double down all they want, when they highlight anohter area of the night elves down the line, don't come complaining that night elves aren't what you thought they were. If ou been around this product long enough, change is theoe thing that is assured.

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But just incase you didn't realise the highborne options:

They are
1. The more stylish intricate hairstyls
2. The necklace piece
3. the blue arcane eye colour (but do note silver and purple are a result of arcane power too)
4. Black and blonde hair colours
5. Certain very light and very dark skin tones

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Oh,, and if you are wondering how I feel..

I'm loving the additions so far, you may have failed to notice my avatar pic and name are very druidic - don't let my love for non-druidic night elf represenetation make you think that I don't care about druidic ones - teh druidic ones are not the ones that are under-rperesented or misunderstood by fans, it's the others, especially the arcane ones, this si why I spend more time talking about those hear. If certain posters didn't throw nonsense in my face, it woulnd't come up, if they said the same nonsesne about druidism like they were doing 10 years ago, I'd be talking most often about that like I was 10 years ago.

[Strippling]

snip

I'm glad you're liking the new night elf customizations, I think they are fantastic.

However, your posts came across as though you were hoping Blizzard would delve deeper into the highborne thematic and less on the naturistic thematic of night elves. So I was just noting how that night elves have changed culturally over the millennia and that the highborne theme has become an extremely small aspect of their society. As a people they are predominantly defined by a naturistic theme, hence why the majority of their customizations will likely reflect as such. When you say you hope the next night elven city is more a kin to Suramar or Zin'Azshari, it's a nice hope but an unlikely one given that any traces of highborne culture left within night elven society are exactly that, a trace. It'd make no sense to make their future homeland reflect something they no longer are at large. They are by and large defined by their naturistic culture so naturally (pun intended) their future city will likely be a reflection of this as opposed to the trace of highborne culture that remains within them. Nightborne on the other hand are defined by the highborne culture, hence why they still live in Suramar to this day and have a heavy focus on arcane magic.

[Ignaz]

not the same race of elves in both factions?

See how you contradict yourself?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUik...outu.be&t=2780

in that answer he leaves no concept of faction identity, just his insight into what a group of elves is (which later came to contradict himself in Shadowlands)

And since elves are not forced

Oh sure. just being exiled from their home and being subjected to a world at war with the plague and other threats. Nothing forced ...

and elves being egocentric as they are, we can rule out this theory

It is not a theory, it is common sense and you are discarding that observation based on an assumption, not on facts.

in the case of elves? mostly.

Good to Know

how they are showed ingame, just a thallasian elf, show they are not human elves yet

Who is saying that there has to be a biological elf / human cross for them to survive? You have a very big problem relating culture to sex.

its not a real canon difference, then its pointless

It is not. Is evidence based on observation.

its right there, to "match reality" and to change how work(elf skin color) should be implemented

You still don't answer my questions. Do you want me to formulate them in another way so that you can understand them? Or are you just avoiding them to keep your point that it's not based on any evidence?

if you put a small population of tigers, or vice versa, they will yeah

God. what are you talking about?

because he did not went to live with the kul'tirans, and he do not have descendants

You have to analyze that text more carefully. You have a very big confusion when integrating the subject in the context.

do you? cause i always see people trowing out left and right that elves are different, besides they being exactly the same, and throwing out that kul'tirans and humans are exactly the same, besides their absurdly obvious difference, that is the double standard im seeing

Besides, nothing in the "word of god" rule out the kul'tiran having drust blood

As I see it, you only try to avoid the truth that you have in front of your eyes to not accept that you are wrong, even when you know that you have no theoretical basis or facts to back you up.

you use the word of god only when it suits you and you deny it when it disadvantages you.From the beginning I am telling you that you cannot use real science as a pilot to explain the events that occur in a game like wow, and I explain that if you do, you will find a sea of contradictions; One of those contradictions (that I mentioned to you many times) is when Ion says that both Helves and Belves are exactly the same, when using real science based on observation, you could show that they are different races of the same species. I am not claiming that they are both the same race or that they are different races.

Now, double standards come when you fight with shield and sword for Ion's words but when Blizzard shows you that you are wrong with the Kul'tiran, those words are worth nothing to you.

[Vaedan]

not the same race of elves in both factions?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUik...outu.be&t=2780


And since elves are not forced and humans don't enforce that, and elves being egocentric as they are, we can rule out this theory


in the case of elves? mostly.


how they are showed ingame, just a thallasian elf, show they are not human elves yet


its not a real canon difference, then its pointless


its right there, to "match reality" and to change how work(elf skin color) should be implemented



if you put a small population of tigers, or vice versa, they will yeah


because he did not went to live with the kul'tirans, and he do not have descendants


do you? cause i always see people trowing out left and right that elves are different, besides they being exactly the same, and throwing out that kul'tirans and humans are exactly the same, besides their absurdly obvious difference, that is the double standard im seeing

Besides, nothing in the "word of god" rule out the kul'tiran having drust blood

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Ulfar quotes came after the interviews, and nothing in there rly proves they do not have drust ancestry/blood



then where is the normal and thin human drust? only the ones with the resemble of the drust are druids, too much of a "coincidence", especially with the ulfar quotes


https://wow.gamepedia.com/Sef_Iwen is how to be a Drust with a female Vrykul model, Gorak tul is also showed to look like a Vrykul, in the artwork drust resembles vrykuls

and vrykuls are ''big humans'''' anyway

Gorak Tul and all other drust we've seen were shown after their defeat and after they transformed into something else. Basicly every drust we see in Drustvar is a construct inhabited with the spirit of drust. The only instance we've seen them while they were living is in that flashback, and they were shown as human. I'm not sure why, because other sources points out they were Vrykul, but it is like that.

And once again, being druid have nothing to do with your race. Those powers are not genetical. If they were, they would have druidic abilities since birth, and as you can see, every group of druids are teaching others. Even Malfurion himself, the greatest druid of all, had to learn to be druid. His twin failed to do so, so it was definitely not inherited by birth. Druidism is not innate, there is no single known character born with innate druidic powers (speaking of mortals ofc) and it is very common for drudic groups to accept individuals of other races that their own, thus drudism could spread amongs tauren, trolls, worgen, even thou it was innitially elven thing.

Once again, Ulfar tells us, that Thornspeakers disagreed with Gorak Tul's aggressions and they decided to help kul tirans and shared their secrets, which pretty much means they shared their druidism with kul tirans. They thought other to be druids, exactly as druids of Cenarion Circle do it.

I don't really understand why are so adamant about this. It is clearly shown by devs themselves that they do not consider kul tirans different race. It is clearly shown that druidism has nothing to do with your race. The only thing you do is that you keep posting misinterpreted quote.

[Syegfryed]

Gorak Tul and all other drust we've seen were shown after their defeat and after they transformed into something else. Basicly every drust we see in Drustvar is a construct inhabited with the spirit of drust. The only instance we've seen them while they were living is in that flashback, and they were shown as human. I'm not sure why, because other sources points out they were Vrykul, but it is like that.

in linked you the drust woman, she is a vrykul woman

And once again, being druid have nothing to do with your race

Sure, but how many human druids do you find out there? like you said there is even a Orc druid, but no humans, the guilneas ahrvest witches were to weak to be druids, only the kul'tirans who look like vrykul/drust, are druid, they were the only one who her the call of the wild with their ancestry, isn't a little suspicious?

its a given

Once again, Ulfar tells us, that Thornspeakers disagreed with Gorak Tul's aggressions and they decided to help kul tirans and shared their secrets, which pretty much means they shared their druidism with kul tirans. They thought other to be druids, exactly as druids of Cenarion Circle do it.

He said they joined kul'irans societ

I don't really understand why are so adamant about this. It is clearly shown by devs themselves that they do not consider kul tirans different race. It is clearly shown that druidism has nothing to do with your race. The only thing you do is that you keep posting misinterpreted quote.

from my pov, you guys are misinterpreting their quotes, and since by own Ion words:
These are Allied Races, these aren't Sub-Races. There's no direct associated Race or “Parent Race” or anything like that” -Ion Hazzikostas .

is safe to say the kul'tirans humans are not just exactly the same as other humans

[Vaedan]

in linked you the drust woman, she is a vrykul woman


Sure, but how many human druids do you find out there? like you said there is even a Orc druid, but no humans, the guilneas ahrvest witches were to weak to be druids, only the kul'tirans who look like vrykul/drust, are druid, they were the only one who her the call of the wild with their ancestry, isn't a little suspicious?

its a given


He said they joined kul'irans societ


from my pov, you guys are misinterpreting their quotes, and since by own Ion words:
These are Allied Races, these aren't Sub-Races. There's no direct associated Race or “Parent Race” or anything like that” -Ion Hazzikostas .

is safe to say the kul'tirans humans are not just exactly the same as other humans

It is not given. If you would be right, then all of kul tirans should have druidic abilities, but it is not the case. Thornspeakers are only small sect within kul tiran society, distrusted by many, given their connection to drust. It is also shown in children's week, your orphan clearly states he considers becoming a thornspeaker. It is a matter of choice, not a matter of birth.

Yes, Ulfar and his group join kul tirans, but he clearly destincts US and THEM. You know, Jews in their diaspora also joined numerous communities, but still kept their traditions and for very long time, they were not allowed to marry anybody who is not a Jew.

Well, devs clearly stated that kul tirans are humans. Hardened by tough life. That's it. Other posters provided you links which proves that. If you choose to ignore that, that's your decision, but it hardly changes the fact that right now, devs consider kul tiran only human.

[Syegfryed]

See how you contradict yourself?

there is no contradiction, void elf is one race, blood elf is another

in that answer he leaves no concept of faction identity, just his insight into what a group of elves is (which later came to contradict himself in Shadowlands)

he sure thinks that putting the same race in both faction will damage the faction identity, this show the concept of faction identy have a lot to do with their races

Oh sure. just being exiled from their home and being subjected to a world at war with the plague and other threats. Nothing forced ...

sure, many elves living nice and lazy and dalaran and stormwind are forced to adapt the human culture or else

yeh no, elves don't that, you can see they in Dalaran just being the same elves as before

Who is saying that there has to be a biological elf / human cross for them to survive? You have a very big problem relating culture to sex.

im talking about their "culture" they are not "human culture oriented" elves, just elves living with humans

It is not. Is evidence based on observation.

Again, its not, ingame things are not necessary canon, unless you think the big cities ingame are that small, and other things who are there just for the sake of gameplay.

Again, there is no difference between the elves, blizzard and the devs already confirmed that

You still don't answer my questions. Do you want me to formulate them in another way so that you can understand them? Or are you just avoiding them to keep your point that it's not based on any evidence?

your "questions" have being answered many times, what blizzard did in putting other color of elves and saying they were always there is a straight up retcon, not a "fallacy" like you are claiming to be

God. what are you talking about?

if you put lions and tigers together they will breed with each other, there is many examples with this happening in zoo, you said "lion and cat" as a exaggeration of things

You have to analyze that text more carefully. You have a very big confusion when integrating the subject in the context.

seems pretty straight to me, not including himself cause he didn't left descendants, its only more supported with kul'tirans being banality like a vrykul.

As I see it, you only try to avoid the truth that you have in front of your eyes to not accept that you are wrong, even when you know that you have no theoretical basis or facts to back you up.

Avoiding truth? you are the one saying "there is difference" in the elves here friend

you use the word of god only when it suits you and you deny it when it disadvantages you.

except i didn't, there is nothing in the "word" of god who remotely refute what i said, unless you try to twist things to fit your argument

From the beginning I am telling you that you cannot use real science as a pilot to explain the events that occur in a game like wow,

And i tell you that i can if i want

One of those contradictions (that I mentioned to you many times) is when Ion says that both Helves and Belves are exactly the same, when using real science based on observation, ou could show that they are different races of the same species

Except this is wrong and you cannot show they are a different race, you are using incorrect "observations" that have being proved wrong

you keep saying they have different skin color, of HE being paler, and this is just wrong, since the devs literally refuted that

Now, double standards come when you fight with shield and sword for Ion's words but when Blizzard shows you that you are wrong with the Kul'tiran, those words are worth nothing to you.

except you know, nothing with Ion words said it is wrong

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It is not given. If you would be right, then all of kul tirans should have druidic abilities, but it is not the case.

exactly, not all kul'tirans have druidic abilities, only the ones who look like drust

you can believe this is a coincidence all you want, but not me

Yes, Ulfar and his group join kul tirans, but he clearly destincts US and THEM.

because he didn't join the kul'tiran society, we went to live alone, the others died, leaving descendants, and those, hear the call of the wild

they were not allowed to marry anybody who is not a Jew.

And there is no such thing with the drust, no rule or law that we know, and if they joined their sociecity, they mixed up, other died, their descendants left

Well, devs clearly stated that kul tirans are humans. Hardened by tough life. That's it. Other posters provided you links which proves that. If you choose to ignore that, that's your decision, but it hardly changes the fact that right now, devs consider kul tiran only human.

the devs said they are a variant of humans

other devs say the allied races are not sub races, but other races

Ulfar said the drust descendants hear the call of the wild, aka the playable kul'tirans humans

Kul'tirans playable look like drust, different from the normal humans

but sure, the kul'trians humans are the exact same race as the normal humans, but elves who are exact the same are totally a different race. Guess is too hard to realize that humans with a bit of drust blood would still be humans, just a variation, since vrykuls and humans are way too close.

[ravenmoon]

I'm glad you're liking the new night elf customizations, I think they are fantastic.

However, your posts came across as though you were hoping Blizzard would delve deeper into the highborne thematic and less on the naturistic thematic of night elves. So I was just noting how that night elves have changed culturally over the millennia and that the highborne theme has become an extremely small aspect of their society. As a people they are predominantly defined by a naturistic theme, hence why the majority of their customizations will likely reflect as such. When you say you hope the next night elven city is more a kin to Suramar or Zin'Azshari, it's a nice hope but an unlikely one given that any traces of highborne culture left within night elven society are exactly that, a trace. It'd make no sense to make their future homeland reflect something they no longer are at large. They are by and large defined by their naturistic culture so naturally (pun intended) their future city will likely be a reflection of this as opposed to the trace of highborne culture that remains within them. Nightborne on the other hand are defined by the highborne culture, hence why they still live in Suramar to this day and have a heavy focus on arcane magic.

Yes, they're lovely aren't they. And yes I am hoping for more on the Highborne side and theme. Do you know why?

My view is that the entirety of the night elf lore is what the race is about, not just wc3 presentation. So they have the forest elf side and the dark elf side. One may feel more prevalent than the other (it actually isn't) but it's both together that make the night elf special, rather than generic.

The Hope and Claim To More
I know night elves seem to be a lot more nature focused than anything else, but it really isn't as large as it seems from playing game material, if you include ALL their material. However, the nature side could use with some freshening up that reflected some previous art and appearances and what is a core part of the Night elves, which is why I am glad to see the changes so far (ears aside), however so to do the other aspects which I am a bit disappointed not to see. Do not Highborne and DH customisations need better and more options too? They may be smaller, but they are there and are popular, much loved - isn't customisations options there to give us much wider scope of the things we can roleplay as? Leaving out Highborne ones wont be true to that.

Yes, the Highborne are much smaller in the playable group making the arcane elven culture smaller here than it is in other elven off shoots like the blood elves or the Nightborne which are the allied race based on that aspect of the night elves. It's still there, it's an important and loved part, and it should have representation too.

It's good to hope and share your feelings and expectations and also why you do. The why has been a focus of my brothers, friends I've made along the way and myself ofc, it's good not to forget the why cos it's one of the parts of the race we like a lot too and feel definitely makes the night elf set more interesting and varied.

Night Elves are more than just Forests - They Need to Be and Should Be
No race just has 100% natural landscape void of sentient being interaction or even 100% of one type of landscape, and night elves have beautiful forests, cities and temples, we finally saw in non ruined versions when Suramar and warbringers Azshara came,. An example of hope becoming a reality when at last we saw those cities from the lore. I think now it is not so far or vain a hope as it was before Legion for the actual Kaldorei not only for their sub race. Night elf lands also have barren wastelands, grasslands, farm lands too. It's just part of how sentient races work. They have lots of ruins too, I think these are perfect locations to rebuild rather and I would imagine the night elves would feel so and not create a new city on forested land.

Perhaps we've delved into the night elf too deeply, but from what I see and understand about them, a night elf city is not the place for the forest elf side of the night elves who prefer nature in its purest form and are always shown in forests with very few homes and the druids living under caves or trees to disturb nature as little as possible. But a Night elf city can be beautiful and look like a night elven wondrous city of their lore and have lots of nature in parks, gardens etc - with a city people living there, not disrupting nature and actually living quite in harmony as their carry out functions necessary to sentient life forms that do require cities.

Why We Feel Night Elves Won't/Shouldn't Have a Tree City or Village as a Capital
Based on the character and lore blizzard gave them, the forest elf side aren't the type that's going to convert large numbers of trees into homes, nor congregate in large numbers, this is why tree city has never been shown for night elves who are half forest elves, and why the cities, including Darnassus are more priest and mage type places and so don't need to be literal forests. Also cities are another legitimate part of the night elves, even if those that desire it are smaller in numbers and most of them were 10k years in the past, it's still a side to night elves worth having around for variation sake. The forest has its forest homes, it's too samey to also bring that to cityscape, and I'm glad blizzard didn't do that for Darnassus, or Zin'Azshari or Suramar, but actually made them actual cities, trying hard to show them as stunning and wondrous, it's not bad to hope any night elf city follows that trend rather than, yet another rural setting in a forest for a city of all things.


So even with much fewer number, even if it is only the mage and priest types there, i.e, non druid/hunter night elves that have uses or desires for cities, they would build beautiful and extravagant ones whether as a tribute to the goddess, or love for beauty and great elven skill/craftsmanship, it should be and reflect their graceful identity. To me what their numbers mean is that you will have far fewer cities, maybe 1 large ones, and another smaller one elsewhere in addition to the various fortresses and strongholds of various orders which are just massive buildings (Warden vault, Black Rook hold, Moonguard stronghold, CoEN). I don't view their fewer numbers to mean they wont have any city nor would have a rural city (i.e. a village as capital like in the long vigil). Cities are not how the forest half live or would want to, and the non forest half aren't going to build rural stuff for a city, not these ones who've done far more than that, and I think the forest half would prefer them not to use the trees to make homes but rather use metals, stone, marble, glass, Pearl's and other materials that don't hurt living things. To me, this is in line with harmony with nature, Druids would recognise sentient humanoids need homes (they aren't animals)but they would rather they don't use living trees or disturb forests, to do so. And once they build their city, would be happy to grow gardens and parks, flowers and add more nature to the land.

Reason for Hoping Night Elves Get a Proper City
So you see I have very good reason to believe and hope a night elf city would be "night elven !"stunning like Suramar or Zin'Azshari - great night elf works. The pre sundering era may be gone, but many night elves from there who built such things are still around, and the lore lets us know they really loved their civilization, none hated it (it's the Legion they hated, and bad attitudes of magic abuse and addiction the elites developed, it wasn't beautiful buildings and forests), and while many night elves prefer only the wilds today, many need a city, temples and such especially as the reasons for the main group never rebuilding one during the military long vigil era are fully over and their entire race are no longer in isolation.

This means that while the forest druid night elves can continue to dedicate themselves to the wilds, the night elf government and nation can no longer be in isolation, nor do they need to if you understood why they were there. This means many night elves will continue dedicated to the forest in forest areas, but also we will have many congregate in cities. With arcane magic back along with 10k years extra experience and knowledge from the Highborne Shen'dralar leaders, those who need and want cities will rebuild them and they don't interfere with forests nor would they make the forest half of the night elves any less forest for other night elves having a city or 2.

If Darnassus had so many pre-sundering buildings and architecture in it, and that was before the Highborne return, a new city will definitely reflect the races style and beauty, which we see in Suramar in game and in Zin'Azshari. Remember, just because the Nightborne have Suramar, doesn't suddenly mean it's not night elven, that is like thinking just because the blood elves have Silvermoon, it isn't high elven or high elves wont build homes like that or desire homes like Silvermoon they built and lived in. High elves are not going to build homes like the Lodge in Loch Modan they also built or Quel'danil lodge in the Hinterlamds, those are rural buildings for rural areas, not cities, nor are they going to build human buildings because they've been staying in Dalaran or Stormwind..

It's the same with night elves..those who need cities and desire them are not going to build rural homes or waste/convert masses of trees for them just because they lived a long time without cities because of their sacred Long vigil mission or because a large number of them prefer forests. Those that prefer forests will ofc continue to live in them, they're not going to be forced to join those who prefer a city. Even if the city lovers are few Highborne and the government priesthood, they will build a city and live there, it won't interfere with the forest

And they are going to build as good as they can in their style they know how, this is Suramar or Zin 'Azshari type. And this is why I hope.

Blizzard Will Do What They Want Anyway
Now blizzard may turn around and go, its tree city for you now - honestly, I'll be a bit disappointed, but that's their choice, I don't see the Highborne happy with it either, but who knows, maybe blizzard want to make their night elves 100% forest elves. It's their choice, it would be a disappointing move, totally unnecessary because the same could be achieved if 33% of Nelves were forest elves but the worse crime is that it would also erode all that was distinctive of the night elves as one of their few truly original elf renditions which is rare in fantasy, instead choosing to fully abandon what they pulled off well enough just to make them generic forest elves? I'll be disappointed,.

Even though my favourite aspect is the forest elf side, I do like the classy Highborne, fancy night city look and side, and the edgy gritty bad boy demon hunter side, and the hot amazonian warrior female babe...they make the race much more interesting, but it is their arcane side , pre sundering parts that truly gives them a different environment, so it's quite important, and it is also the side that strongly connects them to the other elves.

If you remove that , you might as well make them another race, they'd be elf only in name and share nothing with Thalassians or Nightborne which would not make sense since you have them as the parent elf race, the biggest elf nation and the most diverse still strong and pioneering, adapting to their changes surprisingly quickly for an ancient race which is a testament to their intelligence if these changes are right. Essentially they are to elves what Zandalari are to trolls, having the full expression of elven nature, abilities and types. So cutting off or keeping the arcane side near insignificant is actually undermining further the better aspects of their own fantasy, making it more trope and stereotypical, less original and unique and more junky.

If you ask me, they should be doing the opposite, but many have been questioning the quality of their lore recently and lore choices, it's becoming more junky, and long old time fans like me are on our last breadth over warcraft trying to highlight what is junky, what doesn't look so good and what we really treasured of their earlier works in the hopes they would do better.

Our voice is important even though it is few/small, because we are really into it and we will spot a lot of things others don't and won't even realise they are missing. This is why we do this.

FINALLY, DON'T MISTAKE ME WRITING A LOT TO MEAN I DESPERATELY HOPE THEY WOULD DO WHAT I WANT. I write this much because I JUST ENJOY EXPLAINING THINGS THAT I'VE UNDERSTOOD, and like talking about things I'm into. I've been disappointed so many times hoping for more and never getting it, I know it's foolish to be desperate over something like this.

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---EDIT ADD--- I've copied this response over to this post

Night Elves, Magic & the Arcane - Common Misconceptions & Things You Didn't Consider

Please respond there for further discussion, as Mods want this to stay mainly about high elves. I do hope you enjoyed the read, I enjoyed writing it and expressing my thoughts in detail. Soz if it's too long, but it's worth the read.