Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[Strippling]

And you're doing it with the night elves too - "night elves no longer live in such cities" " night elves are culturally changed that means they can't live in pretty cities, "night elves love harmony with nature, so living in a pretty city somehow measn they do not", "modern night elf architecture is different - so let's ignore Darnasus, and lets ignore the "modern" architecture that shows up in presudnering ics and rural settings too", "night elves hate the arcane and shun that lifestyle - so naturally means they can't live in beautiful cities they built"... bogus nonsense, all a pretext too - "horde has these lovely assets, alliance you can't have them" meanwhile alliance fans are like "you realise all those things belong to the night elves and high elves right

The recent datamined night elf customizations indicate Blizzard are doubling down on the "nature" theme of night elves, not the "city dwelling" theme. Night elves have changed culturally, which makes sense as they have moved past living in lavish, majestic, magical cities. Any future city for night elves will likely be heavily similar to darnassus (ie nature themed), in accordance with their recent customization options.

[ravenmoon]

The recent datamined night elf customizations indicate Blizzard are doubling down on the "nature" theme of night elves, not the "city dwelling" theme. Night elves have changed culturally, which makes sense as they have moved past living in lavish, majestic, magical cities. Any future city for night elves will likely be heavily similar to darnassus (ie nature themed), in accordance with their recent customization options.

If tomorrow Blizzard announce the night elves are now forest elves, life will contine. we;ve needed many of those nature customisations they gave, now we just need some more highborne ones. Got a couple, some hairstyles and a necklace, but I'm very pleased with the natre options, they're 4 of5 on my list, however the quanitty is still very small.

You need to remember that the customisation changes aren't complete yet, and until they make it no longer the case, you have to also remember night elves can still be mages, demon hunters and priests, not just druids.

I don'tt hink anyone expectred the night elf customisations not to have some forest elf effects. .. and blizzard can double down all they want, when they highlight anohter area of the night elves down the line, don't come complaining that night elves aren't what you thought they were. If ou been around this product long enough, change is theoe thing that is assured.

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But just incase you didn't realise the highborne options:

They are
1. The more stylish intricate hairstyls
2. The necklace piece
3. the blue arcane eye colour (but do note silver and purple are a result of arcane power too)
4. Black and blonde hair colours
5. Certain very light and very dark skin tones

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Oh,, and if you are wondering how I feel..

I'm loving the additions so far, you may have failed to notice my avatar pic and name are very druidic - don't let my love for non-druidic night elf represenetation make you think that I don't care about druidic ones - teh druidic ones are not the ones that are under-rperesented or misunderstood by fans, it's the others, especially the arcane ones, this si why I spend more time talking about those hear. If certain posters didn't throw nonsense in my face, it woulnd't come up, if they said the same nonsesne about druidism like they were doing 10 years ago, I'd be talking most often about that like I was 10 years ago.

[Strippling]

snip

I'm glad you're liking the new night elf customizations, I think they are fantastic.

However, your posts came across as though you were hoping Blizzard would delve deeper into the highborne thematic and less on the naturistic thematic of night elves. So I was just noting how that night elves have changed culturally over the millennia and that the highborne theme has become an extremely small aspect of their society. As a people they are predominantly defined by a naturistic theme, hence why the majority of their customizations will likely reflect as such. When you say you hope the next night elven city is more a kin to Suramar or Zin'Azshari, it's a nice hope but an unlikely one given that any traces of highborne culture left within night elven society are exactly that, a trace. It'd make no sense to make their future homeland reflect something they no longer are at large. They are by and large defined by their naturistic culture so naturally (pun intended) their future city will likely be a reflection of this as opposed to the trace of highborne culture that remains within them. Nightborne on the other hand are defined by the highborne culture, hence why they still live in Suramar to this day and have a heavy focus on arcane magic.

[Ignaz]

not the same race of elves in both factions?

See how you contradict yourself?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUik...outu.be&t=2780

in that answer he leaves no concept of faction identity, just his insight into what a group of elves is (which later came to contradict himself in Shadowlands)

And since elves are not forced

Oh sure. just being exiled from their home and being subjected to a world at war with the plague and other threats. Nothing forced ...

and elves being egocentric as they are, we can rule out this theory

It is not a theory, it is common sense and you are discarding that observation based on an assumption, not on facts.

in the case of elves? mostly.

Good to Know

how they are showed ingame, just a thallasian elf, show they are not human elves yet

Who is saying that there has to be a biological elf / human cross for them to survive? You have a very big problem relating culture to sex.

its not a real canon difference, then its pointless

It is not. Is evidence based on observation.

its right there, to "match reality" and to change how work(elf skin color) should be implemented

You still don't answer my questions. Do you want me to formulate them in another way so that you can understand them? Or are you just avoiding them to keep your point that it's not based on any evidence?

if you put a small population of tigers, or vice versa, they will yeah

God. what are you talking about?

because he did not went to live with the kul'tirans, and he do not have descendants

You have to analyze that text more carefully. You have a very big confusion when integrating the subject in the context.

do you? cause i always see people trowing out left and right that elves are different, besides they being exactly the same, and throwing out that kul'tirans and humans are exactly the same, besides their absurdly obvious difference, that is the double standard im seeing

Besides, nothing in the "word of god" rule out the kul'tiran having drust blood

As I see it, you only try to avoid the truth that you have in front of your eyes to not accept that you are wrong, even when you know that you have no theoretical basis or facts to back you up.

you use the word of god only when it suits you and you deny it when it disadvantages you.From the beginning I am telling you that you cannot use real science as a pilot to explain the events that occur in a game like wow, and I explain that if you do, you will find a sea of contradictions; One of those contradictions (that I mentioned to you many times) is when Ion says that both Helves and Belves are exactly the same, when using real science based on observation, you could show that they are different races of the same species. I am not claiming that they are both the same race or that they are different races.

Now, double standards come when you fight with shield and sword for Ion's words but when Blizzard shows you that you are wrong with the Kul'tiran, those words are worth nothing to you.

[Vaedan]

not the same race of elves in both factions?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUik...outu.be&t=2780


And since elves are not forced and humans don't enforce that, and elves being egocentric as they are, we can rule out this theory


in the case of elves? mostly.


how they are showed ingame, just a thallasian elf, show they are not human elves yet


its not a real canon difference, then its pointless


its right there, to "match reality" and to change how work(elf skin color) should be implemented



if you put a small population of tigers, or vice versa, they will yeah


because he did not went to live with the kul'tirans, and he do not have descendants


do you? cause i always see people trowing out left and right that elves are different, besides they being exactly the same, and throwing out that kul'tirans and humans are exactly the same, besides their absurdly obvious difference, that is the double standard im seeing

Besides, nothing in the "word of god" rule out the kul'tiran having drust blood

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Ulfar quotes came after the interviews, and nothing in there rly proves they do not have drust ancestry/blood



then where is the normal and thin human drust? only the ones with the resemble of the drust are druids, too much of a "coincidence", especially with the ulfar quotes


https://wow.gamepedia.com/Sef_Iwen is how to be a Drust with a female Vrykul model, Gorak tul is also showed to look like a Vrykul, in the artwork drust resembles vrykuls

and vrykuls are ''big humans'''' anyway

Gorak Tul and all other drust we've seen were shown after their defeat and after they transformed into something else. Basicly every drust we see in Drustvar is a construct inhabited with the spirit of drust. The only instance we've seen them while they were living is in that flashback, and they were shown as human. I'm not sure why, because other sources points out they were Vrykul, but it is like that.

And once again, being druid have nothing to do with your race. Those powers are not genetical. If they were, they would have druidic abilities since birth, and as you can see, every group of druids are teaching others. Even Malfurion himself, the greatest druid of all, had to learn to be druid. His twin failed to do so, so it was definitely not inherited by birth. Druidism is not innate, there is no single known character born with innate druidic powers (speaking of mortals ofc) and it is very common for drudic groups to accept individuals of other races that their own, thus drudism could spread amongs tauren, trolls, worgen, even thou it was innitially elven thing.

Once again, Ulfar tells us, that Thornspeakers disagreed with Gorak Tul's aggressions and they decided to help kul tirans and shared their secrets, which pretty much means they shared their druidism with kul tirans. They thought other to be druids, exactly as druids of Cenarion Circle do it.

I don't really understand why are so adamant about this. It is clearly shown by devs themselves that they do not consider kul tirans different race. It is clearly shown that druidism has nothing to do with your race. The only thing you do is that you keep posting misinterpreted quote.

[Syegfryed]

Gorak Tul and all other drust we've seen were shown after their defeat and after they transformed into something else. Basicly every drust we see in Drustvar is a construct inhabited with the spirit of drust. The only instance we've seen them while they were living is in that flashback, and they were shown as human. I'm not sure why, because other sources points out they were Vrykul, but it is like that.

in linked you the drust woman, she is a vrykul woman

And once again, being druid have nothing to do with your race

Sure, but how many human druids do you find out there? like you said there is even a Orc druid, but no humans, the guilneas ahrvest witches were to weak to be druids, only the kul'tirans who look like vrykul/drust, are druid, they were the only one who her the call of the wild with their ancestry, isn't a little suspicious?

its a given

Once again, Ulfar tells us, that Thornspeakers disagreed with Gorak Tul's aggressions and they decided to help kul tirans and shared their secrets, which pretty much means they shared their druidism with kul tirans. They thought other to be druids, exactly as druids of Cenarion Circle do it.

He said they joined kul'irans societ

I don't really understand why are so adamant about this. It is clearly shown by devs themselves that they do not consider kul tirans different race. It is clearly shown that druidism has nothing to do with your race. The only thing you do is that you keep posting misinterpreted quote.

from my pov, you guys are misinterpreting their quotes, and since by own Ion words:
These are Allied Races, these aren't Sub-Races. There's no direct associated Race or “Parent Race” or anything like that” -Ion Hazzikostas .

is safe to say the kul'tirans humans are not just exactly the same as other humans

[Vaedan]

in linked you the drust woman, she is a vrykul woman


Sure, but how many human druids do you find out there? like you said there is even a Orc druid, but no humans, the guilneas ahrvest witches were to weak to be druids, only the kul'tirans who look like vrykul/drust, are druid, they were the only one who her the call of the wild with their ancestry, isn't a little suspicious?

its a given


He said they joined kul'irans societ


from my pov, you guys are misinterpreting their quotes, and since by own Ion words:
These are Allied Races, these aren't Sub-Races. There's no direct associated Race or “Parent Race” or anything like that” -Ion Hazzikostas .

is safe to say the kul'tirans humans are not just exactly the same as other humans

It is not given. If you would be right, then all of kul tirans should have druidic abilities, but it is not the case. Thornspeakers are only small sect within kul tiran society, distrusted by many, given their connection to drust. It is also shown in children's week, your orphan clearly states he considers becoming a thornspeaker. It is a matter of choice, not a matter of birth.

Yes, Ulfar and his group join kul tirans, but he clearly destincts US and THEM. You know, Jews in their diaspora also joined numerous communities, but still kept their traditions and for very long time, they were not allowed to marry anybody who is not a Jew.

Well, devs clearly stated that kul tirans are humans. Hardened by tough life. That's it. Other posters provided you links which proves that. If you choose to ignore that, that's your decision, but it hardly changes the fact that right now, devs consider kul tiran only human.

[Syegfryed]

See how you contradict yourself?

there is no contradiction, void elf is one race, blood elf is another

in that answer he leaves no concept of faction identity, just his insight into what a group of elves is (which later came to contradict himself in Shadowlands)

he sure thinks that putting the same race in both faction will damage the faction identity, this show the concept of faction identy have a lot to do with their races

Oh sure. just being exiled from their home and being subjected to a world at war with the plague and other threats. Nothing forced ...

sure, many elves living nice and lazy and dalaran and stormwind are forced to adapt the human culture or else

yeh no, elves don't that, you can see they in Dalaran just being the same elves as before

Who is saying that there has to be a biological elf / human cross for them to survive? You have a very big problem relating culture to sex.

im talking about their "culture" they are not "human culture oriented" elves, just elves living with humans

It is not. Is evidence based on observation.

Again, its not, ingame things are not necessary canon, unless you think the big cities ingame are that small, and other things who are there just for the sake of gameplay.

Again, there is no difference between the elves, blizzard and the devs already confirmed that

You still don't answer my questions. Do you want me to formulate them in another way so that you can understand them? Or are you just avoiding them to keep your point that it's not based on any evidence?

your "questions" have being answered many times, what blizzard did in putting other color of elves and saying they were always there is a straight up retcon, not a "fallacy" like you are claiming to be

God. what are you talking about?

if you put lions and tigers together they will breed with each other, there is many examples with this happening in zoo, you said "lion and cat" as a exaggeration of things

You have to analyze that text more carefully. You have a very big confusion when integrating the subject in the context.

seems pretty straight to me, not including himself cause he didn't left descendants, its only more supported with kul'tirans being banality like a vrykul.

As I see it, you only try to avoid the truth that you have in front of your eyes to not accept that you are wrong, even when you know that you have no theoretical basis or facts to back you up.

Avoiding truth? you are the one saying "there is difference" in the elves here friend

you use the word of god only when it suits you and you deny it when it disadvantages you.

except i didn't, there is nothing in the "word" of god who remotely refute what i said, unless you try to twist things to fit your argument

From the beginning I am telling you that you cannot use real science as a pilot to explain the events that occur in a game like wow,

And i tell you that i can if i want

One of those contradictions (that I mentioned to you many times) is when Ion says that both Helves and Belves are exactly the same, when using real science based on observation, ou could show that they are different races of the same species

Except this is wrong and you cannot show they are a different race, you are using incorrect "observations" that have being proved wrong

you keep saying they have different skin color, of HE being paler, and this is just wrong, since the devs literally refuted that

Now, double standards come when you fight with shield and sword for Ion's words but when Blizzard shows you that you are wrong with the Kul'tiran, those words are worth nothing to you.

except you know, nothing with Ion words said it is wrong

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It is not given. If you would be right, then all of kul tirans should have druidic abilities, but it is not the case.

exactly, not all kul'tirans have druidic abilities, only the ones who look like drust

you can believe this is a coincidence all you want, but not me

Yes, Ulfar and his group join kul tirans, but he clearly destincts US and THEM.

because he didn't join the kul'tiran society, we went to live alone, the others died, leaving descendants, and those, hear the call of the wild

they were not allowed to marry anybody who is not a Jew.

And there is no such thing with the drust, no rule or law that we know, and if they joined their sociecity, they mixed up, other died, their descendants left

Well, devs clearly stated that kul tirans are humans. Hardened by tough life. That's it. Other posters provided you links which proves that. If you choose to ignore that, that's your decision, but it hardly changes the fact that right now, devs consider kul tiran only human.

the devs said they are a variant of humans

other devs say the allied races are not sub races, but other races

Ulfar said the drust descendants hear the call of the wild, aka the playable kul'tirans humans

Kul'tirans playable look like drust, different from the normal humans

but sure, the kul'trians humans are the exact same race as the normal humans, but elves who are exact the same are totally a different race. Guess is too hard to realize that humans with a bit of drust blood would still be humans, just a variation, since vrykuls and humans are way too close.

[ravenmoon]

I'm glad you're liking the new night elf customizations, I think they are fantastic.

However, your posts came across as though you were hoping Blizzard would delve deeper into the highborne thematic and less on the naturistic thematic of night elves. So I was just noting how that night elves have changed culturally over the millennia and that the highborne theme has become an extremely small aspect of their society. As a people they are predominantly defined by a naturistic theme, hence why the majority of their customizations will likely reflect as such. When you say you hope the next night elven city is more a kin to Suramar or Zin'Azshari, it's a nice hope but an unlikely one given that any traces of highborne culture left within night elven society are exactly that, a trace. It'd make no sense to make their future homeland reflect something they no longer are at large. They are by and large defined by their naturistic culture so naturally (pun intended) their future city will likely be a reflection of this as opposed to the trace of highborne culture that remains within them. Nightborne on the other hand are defined by the highborne culture, hence why they still live in Suramar to this day and have a heavy focus on arcane magic.

Yes, they're lovely aren't they. And yes I am hoping for more on the Highborne side and theme. Do you know why?

My view is that the entirety of the night elf lore is what the race is about, not just wc3 presentation. So they have the forest elf side and the dark elf side. One may feel more prevalent than the other (it actually isn't) but it's both together that make the night elf special, rather than generic.

The Hope and Claim To More
I know night elves seem to be a lot more nature focused than anything else, but it really isn't as large as it seems from playing game material, if you include ALL their material. However, the nature side could use with some freshening up that reflected some previous art and appearances and what is a core part of the Night elves, which is why I am glad to see the changes so far (ears aside), however so to do the other aspects which I am a bit disappointed not to see. Do not Highborne and DH customisations need better and more options too? They may be smaller, but they are there and are popular, much loved - isn't customisations options there to give us much wider scope of the things we can roleplay as? Leaving out Highborne ones wont be true to that.

Yes, the Highborne are much smaller in the playable group making the arcane elven culture smaller here than it is in other elven off shoots like the blood elves or the Nightborne which are the allied race based on that aspect of the night elves. It's still there, it's an important and loved part, and it should have representation too.

It's good to hope and share your feelings and expectations and also why you do. The why has been a focus of my brothers, friends I've made along the way and myself ofc, it's good not to forget the why cos it's one of the parts of the race we like a lot too and feel definitely makes the night elf set more interesting and varied.

Night Elves are more than just Forests - They Need to Be and Should Be
No race just has 100% natural landscape void of sentient being interaction or even 100% of one type of landscape, and night elves have beautiful forests, cities and temples, we finally saw in non ruined versions when Suramar and warbringers Azshara came,. An example of hope becoming a reality when at last we saw those cities from the lore. I think now it is not so far or vain a hope as it was before Legion for the actual Kaldorei not only for their sub race. Night elf lands also have barren wastelands, grasslands, farm lands too. It's just part of how sentient races work. They have lots of ruins too, I think these are perfect locations to rebuild rather and I would imagine the night elves would feel so and not create a new city on forested land.

Perhaps we've delved into the night elf too deeply, but from what I see and understand about them, a night elf city is not the place for the forest elf side of the night elves who prefer nature in its purest form and are always shown in forests with very few homes and the druids living under caves or trees to disturb nature as little as possible. But a Night elf city can be beautiful and look like a night elven wondrous city of their lore and have lots of nature in parks, gardens etc - with a city people living there, not disrupting nature and actually living quite in harmony as their carry out functions necessary to sentient life forms that do require cities.

Why We Feel Night Elves Won't/Shouldn't Have a Tree City or Village as a Capital
Based on the character and lore blizzard gave them, the forest elf side aren't the type that's going to convert large numbers of trees into homes, nor congregate in large numbers, this is why tree city has never been shown for night elves who are half forest elves, and why the cities, including Darnassus are more priest and mage type places and so don't need to be literal forests. Also cities are another legitimate part of the night elves, even if those that desire it are smaller in numbers and most of them were 10k years in the past, it's still a side to night elves worth having around for variation sake. The forest has its forest homes, it's too samey to also bring that to cityscape, and I'm glad blizzard didn't do that for Darnassus, or Zin'Azshari or Suramar, but actually made them actual cities, trying hard to show them as stunning and wondrous, it's not bad to hope any night elf city follows that trend rather than, yet another rural setting in a forest for a city of all things.


So even with much fewer number, even if it is only the mage and priest types there, i.e, non druid/hunter night elves that have uses or desires for cities, they would build beautiful and extravagant ones whether as a tribute to the goddess, or love for beauty and great elven skill/craftsmanship, it should be and reflect their graceful identity. To me what their numbers mean is that you will have far fewer cities, maybe 1 large ones, and another smaller one elsewhere in addition to the various fortresses and strongholds of various orders which are just massive buildings (Warden vault, Black Rook hold, Moonguard stronghold, CoEN). I don't view their fewer numbers to mean they wont have any city nor would have a rural city (i.e. a village as capital like in the long vigil). Cities are not how the forest half live or would want to, and the non forest half aren't going to build rural stuff for a city, not these ones who've done far more than that, and I think the forest half would prefer them not to use the trees to make homes but rather use metals, stone, marble, glass, Pearl's and other materials that don't hurt living things. To me, this is in line with harmony with nature, Druids would recognise sentient humanoids need homes (they aren't animals)but they would rather they don't use living trees or disturb forests, to do so. And once they build their city, would be happy to grow gardens and parks, flowers and add more nature to the land.

Reason for Hoping Night Elves Get a Proper City
So you see I have very good reason to believe and hope a night elf city would be "night elven !"stunning like Suramar or Zin'Azshari - great night elf works. The pre sundering era may be gone, but many night elves from there who built such things are still around, and the lore lets us know they really loved their civilization, none hated it (it's the Legion they hated, and bad attitudes of magic abuse and addiction the elites developed, it wasn't beautiful buildings and forests), and while many night elves prefer only the wilds today, many need a city, temples and such especially as the reasons for the main group never rebuilding one during the military long vigil era are fully over and their entire race are no longer in isolation.

This means that while the forest druid night elves can continue to dedicate themselves to the wilds, the night elf government and nation can no longer be in isolation, nor do they need to if you understood why they were there. This means many night elves will continue dedicated to the forest in forest areas, but also we will have many congregate in cities. With arcane magic back along with 10k years extra experience and knowledge from the Highborne Shen'dralar leaders, those who need and want cities will rebuild them and they don't interfere with forests nor would they make the forest half of the night elves any less forest for other night elves having a city or 2.

If Darnassus had so many pre-sundering buildings and architecture in it, and that was before the Highborne return, a new city will definitely reflect the races style and beauty, which we see in Suramar in game and in Zin'Azshari. Remember, just because the Nightborne have Suramar, doesn't suddenly mean it's not night elven, that is like thinking just because the blood elves have Silvermoon, it isn't high elven or high elves wont build homes like that or desire homes like Silvermoon they built and lived in. High elves are not going to build homes like the Lodge in Loch Modan they also built or Quel'danil lodge in the Hinterlamds, those are rural buildings for rural areas, not cities, nor are they going to build human buildings because they've been staying in Dalaran or Stormwind..

It's the same with night elves..those who need cities and desire them are not going to build rural homes or waste/convert masses of trees for them just because they lived a long time without cities because of their sacred Long vigil mission or because a large number of them prefer forests. Those that prefer forests will ofc continue to live in them, they're not going to be forced to join those who prefer a city. Even if the city lovers are few Highborne and the government priesthood, they will build a city and live there, it won't interfere with the forest

And they are going to build as good as they can in their style they know how, this is Suramar or Zin 'Azshari type. And this is why I hope.

Blizzard Will Do What They Want Anyway
Now blizzard may turn around and go, its tree city for you now - honestly, I'll be a bit disappointed, but that's their choice, I don't see the Highborne happy with it either, but who knows, maybe blizzard want to make their night elves 100% forest elves. It's their choice, it would be a disappointing move, totally unnecessary because the same could be achieved if 33% of Nelves were forest elves but the worse crime is that it would also erode all that was distinctive of the night elves as one of their few truly original elf renditions which is rare in fantasy, instead choosing to fully abandon what they pulled off well enough just to make them generic forest elves? I'll be disappointed,.

Even though my favourite aspect is the forest elf side, I do like the classy Highborne, fancy night city look and side, and the edgy gritty bad boy demon hunter side, and the hot amazonian warrior female babe...they make the race much more interesting, but it is their arcane side , pre sundering parts that truly gives them a different environment, so it's quite important, and it is also the side that strongly connects them to the other elves.

If you remove that , you might as well make them another race, they'd be elf only in name and share nothing with Thalassians or Nightborne which would not make sense since you have them as the parent elf race, the biggest elf nation and the most diverse still strong and pioneering, adapting to their changes surprisingly quickly for an ancient race which is a testament to their intelligence if these changes are right. Essentially they are to elves what Zandalari are to trolls, having the full expression of elven nature, abilities and types. So cutting off or keeping the arcane side near insignificant is actually undermining further the better aspects of their own fantasy, making it more trope and stereotypical, less original and unique and more junky.

If you ask me, they should be doing the opposite, but many have been questioning the quality of their lore recently and lore choices, it's becoming more junky, and long old time fans like me are on our last breadth over warcraft trying to highlight what is junky, what doesn't look so good and what we really treasured of their earlier works in the hopes they would do better.

Our voice is important even though it is few/small, because we are really into it and we will spot a lot of things others don't and won't even realise they are missing. This is why we do this.

FINALLY, DON'T MISTAKE ME WRITING A LOT TO MEAN I DESPERATELY HOPE THEY WOULD DO WHAT I WANT. I write this much because I JUST ENJOY EXPLAINING THINGS THAT I'VE UNDERSTOOD, and like talking about things I'm into. I've been disappointed so many times hoping for more and never getting it, I know it's foolish to be desperate over something like this.

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---EDIT ADD--- I've copied this response over to this post

Night Elves, Magic & the Arcane - Common Misconceptions & Things You Didn't Consider

Please respond there for further discussion, as Mods want this to stay mainly about high elves. I do hope you enjoyed the read, I enjoyed writing it and expressing my thoughts in detail. Soz if it's too long, but it's worth the read.

[Vaedan]

exactly, not all kul'tirans have druidic abilities, only the ones who look like drust

you can believe this is a coincidence all you want, but not me


Ulfar said the drust descendants hear the call of the wild, aka the playable kul'tirans humans

No, not all "fat" kul tirans have druidic abilities. Not by far. If the druidism would be a racial thing, then all "fat" kul tirans would show innate druidic abilities, which is not the case. It is clear that you train to be a druid, you are not born to be a druid.

Look, I don't deny that drust didn't affected at all. It is clearly established that kul tiran druidism is of drust origin, no discussion here, but it is a thing of culture and society, not a racial thing. You know, all the races who can be druids live in very close connection with nature and animals. Childs of these races are raised to have deep respect for forces of nature, or they have religious connections to certain entities tied with powers of nature. That alone qualifies them for being druid. If the druidism would be racial thing, you would have druidic abilities regardless of your training. You would be able to channel powers of nature, to shapeshift without any other knowledge. That is not the case. No kul tiran besided thornspeakers showed any deeper connection to the wilds either, it is only thing of small and secretive sect within kul tiran society.

because he didn't join the kul'tiran society, we went to live alone, the others died, leaving descendants, and those, hear the call of the wild

well, at first you say he joined the community and now he didn't? In fact, Ulfar clearly says he and other joined the community and tought them. There is no evidence of interbreeding. It is safe to speculate that they did mix, but so far, we have no proof they did.

And there is no such thing with the drust, no rule or law that we know, and if they joined their sociecity, they mixed up, other died, their descendants left

And how do you know that? We know almost nothing about the ancient drust, their culture and laws. We only know that they were extremely aggressive and xenophobic, they glorified slaughter, they had druidic powers and later gained sort of necromantic powers when they animated objects with spirits of their fallen. You are putting it as a sure thing, but we have basicly no proof of this. The only thing we can do in this case is to look on vrykul culture, which is described better in WoW and since drust were vrykul (or at least their close descendants), we can assume they have some parts of their culture same or similar. Vrykul are shown to be extremely distasteful of humans, they see them as small, weak and pathetic. In fact, most of vrykul clans have this attitude towards most of other races. Even Valarjar, our allies, were not really friendly. I don't think you would like to mix with something you find repulsive. Humans also had little reasons to mix with them, since most of humans probably didn't trust the drust and probably feared them at the same time, given their history.

So, while it is possible for a group of drust to live in peace with humans, they were most likely in contact with only small group of people which lacked prejudice (a trait typical for humans in WoW) and they stayed out of mainstream kul tiran society. That's why you find Thornspeaker sanctuary pretty well hiden in the mountains of Drustvar and it is not a central thing of the kul tiran race, as you imply it is.

the devs said they are a variant of humans

other devs say the allied races are not sub races, but other races

Ion said it when they first announced allied races, to clear the speculation that allied races are in fact subraces.

When they announced BfA and Kul Tiras as a continent for the Alliance, they also announced kul tirans. They said the are humans hardened by harsh environment and years of seafaring and monster hunting.

I don't know why they contradict themselves later on that kul tirans are only other variant of humans, but still humas (while before claiming that allied races are special races). In the end, even employees of Blizzard are allowed to change their opinions, and actually they did many times regarding various topics, so we have to work with the most up to date information they gave us. Right now it is that Kul Tirans are humans. Bulky, hardened, but still humans. There is nothing from Blizzard part implying drust ancestry, so you should respect that. If blizzard will reveal in Shadowlands new lore for drust a kul tirans, I will be happy to addapt to that lore.

Kul'tirans playable look like drust, different from the normal humans

No, they don't. Drust are shown in game as Vrykul (as you corrected me) or regular human. They are never shown to look like kul tiran. And kul tiran are definitely different to both regular human and vrykul as well.

but sure, the kul'trians humans are the exact same race as the normal humans, but elves who are exact the same are totally a different race. Guess is too hard to realize that humans with a bit of drust blood would still be humans, just a variation, since vrykuls and humans are way too close.

I didn't brought elves to this discussion. The thing with these kul tirans is that you are clamining they have drust origin in a way it is already written in chronicles and it is valid part of the lore, while it is ONLY A SPECULATION. It is a mere theory now, which is not confirmed or even commented on by Blizzard. While I have no problem to create theories and speculations, you can't claim it is like that.

As for the elves, in thalassian group, they are divided mostly by their cultural and political differences, which does not make them different races biologicaly. It is obvious that this is not a criteria for being separate playable groups either, so I don't see your point here.

[Ashleyxoxo]

Aren’t “High elves” reserved for .. I don’t know, high fantasy games? WoW is more like a comic book.

[Ignaz]

there is no contradiction, void elf is one race, blood elf is another

In this line we are talking about situations not races.
And how do you know that the Velves are a different race if they have not procreated?

he sure thinks that putting the same race in both faction will damage the faction identity, this show the concept of faction identy have a lot to do with their races

you integrate your perception and convert it as an absolute concept. At no time does Ion make it clear what faction identity means.

sure, many elves living nice and lazy and dalaran and stormwind are forced to adapt the human culture or else

yeh no, elves don't that, you can see they in Dalaran just being the same elves as before

likewise they were subjected to a world in wars and cataclysms. In the same way, it is not like they came to Stormwind and Dalaran and stayed as if it were a 5-star hotel, they had to work and adapt to the laws of that society. And for that, it doesn't take more than a few years; they would be misfits if it took them more than 1-2 years

im talking about their "culture" they are not "human culture oriented" elves, just elves living with humans

How can you know if the current culture of the Helves has not been fully explored?

Again, its not, ingame things are not necessary canon, unless you think the big cities ingame are that small, and other things who are there just for the sake of gameplay.

evidence supported by observation

Again, there is no difference between the elves, blizzard and the devs already confirmed that

Just as they talked about stormwind and kul'tiran humans?

your "questions" have being answered many times, what blizzard did in putting other color of elves and saying they were always there is a straight up retcon, not a "fallacy" like you are claiming to be

last chanse of redemption. I will ask you again, try to analyze the question and then answer one by one such as a college test:

1) What did they adjust in the story? (narratively speaking).
2) What continuity do they break by changing the skin of the characters? Is there a racial struggle?

(These questions are related to and taken from YOUR compilation of what retcon means).

if you put lions and tigers together they will breed with each other, there is many examples with this happening in zoo, you said "lion and cat" as a exaggeration of things

Look. You are basing a principle on a premise supported by an assumption, not on facts, that means it has null value to corroborate that your point is true.
And the analogy of the cat and the lion is not an exaggeration. If a 1.80mt human and a 3mt vrykul are placed next to each other, it would fit perfectly with my example.

seems pretty straight to me, not including himself cause he didn't left descendants, its only more supported with kul'tirans being banality like a vrykul.

It is not that it seems to you. There are grammatical rules that fit any text. You are not following those rules and you are causing a confusión (for yourself) with the subjects in the context.

Avoiding truth? you are the one saying "there is difference" in the elves here friend

Of course there are visual differences (canonical or not), but the point I made there was not about visual differences, but about why you cannot use real science as a pilot to explain the events that occur in wow. And I used the contradiction of Ion's word, with what he currently does and what can be observed in the game.
But you insist on demonizing me to somehow prove that you are right. Try to fight with valid arguments not with emotions.

(and please, don't use the "you're the one who's angry not me"excuse).

except i didn't, there is nothing in the "word" of god who remotely refute what i said, unless you try to twist things to fit your argument

You are the one who twists a text that is perfectly understandable. 3 out of 4 people who have touched the text in the debate have understood it in the same way. Show it to anyone and most will tell you the same.

And i tell you that i can if i want

You can do it if you want, but it will not have any argument value at the time of a debate.

Except this is wrong and you cannot show they are a different race, you are using incorrect "observations" that have being proved wrong

Have being proved wrong by whom?
What scientific fact has invalidated my point of view?

except you know, nothing with Ion words said it is wrong

So, only Ion is right and the other blizzard spokespersons have no valid points. keep going dude

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

Aren’t “High elves” reserved for .. I don’t know, high fantasy games? WoW is more like a comic book.

"High Elves" is literally just the name a group of elves has in WoW. You know, context and all.

- - - Updated - - -

So, only Ion is right and the other blizzard spokespersons have no valid points. keep going dude

You know, y'all free to discuss whatever you like, but can I say that continuing to indulge Syeg on his "one sentence" reply style, creating huge posts on each page, really takes out the joy of coming to this page and discuss?

Between Syeg continuing to drag people into inane sentence-by-sentence discussion and Ravenmoon's highborne rants, this thread just feels so much worse yo.

[shoc]

I can't believe people are still posting in this thread

[Ignaz]

You know, y'all free to discuss whatever you like, but can I say that continuing to indulge Syeg on his "one sentence" reply style, creating huge posts on each page, really takes out the joy of coming to this page and discuss?

Between Syeg continuing to drag people into inane sentence-by-sentence discussion and Ravenmoon's highborne rants, this thread just feels so much worse yo.

I will try to better condense my answers to simplify my points. in the same way I will discard the points that we already touched and even having evidence, they are not consolidated.

Sorry for the disturbances, it was not my intention to create a boring environment.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

I can't believe people are still posting in this thread

You betta believe! I mean, people are always going to talk about High Elves; that's how it is

I will try to better condense my answers to simplify my points. in the same way I will discard the points that we already touched and even having evidence, they are not consolidated.

Sorry for the disturbances, it was not my intention to create a boring environment.

NP, but that's the thing with Syeg, one ends on these tangents so far removed from the actual points, which I feel is inescapable when the argument method becomes decontextualizing and responding to each sentence separately. It's just not good arguing.

[Ignaz]

NP, but that's the thing with Syeg, one ends on these tangents so far removed from the actual points, which I feel is inescapable when the argument method becomes decontextualizing and responding to each sentence separately. It's just not good arguing.

Yeah I've already noticed that. Evading the line of debate to create an ideal environment for X point is a dirty but reliable weapon. Although I plead guilty to playing the game because I love exposing those kinds of people.

[Syegfryed]

No, not all "fat" kul tirans have druidic abilities. Not by far

right, i didn't say all fat kul'tirans have, i said all of the kul'tirans druids are the fat ones, there is not a single one normal kul'tiran druid

as the same, you don't see normal guilneans using shapeshift and other major druid powers, only the ones affected by worgen curse

but sure, call "coincidence"

well, at first you say he joined the community and now he didn't?

the thornspeakers but Ulfar, he lived alone and just teach people who goes to him, he didn't left descendants

There is no evidence of interbreeding.

except they literally looking like vrykuls?

And how do you know that?

because is never pointed out, ever, and because drust are not jews

Ion said it when they first announced allied races, to clear the speculation that allied races are in fact subraces.

h said the exactly the opposite, in a Q&A, i give you the quote

When they announced BfA and Kul Tiras as a continent for the Alliance, they also announced kul tirans. They said the are humans hardened by harsh environment and years of seafaring and monster hunting.

that alone already proves they are a variant/another breed of humans

. Right now it is that Kul Tirans are humans.

yeah, a different variant/breed/kind of human

No, they don't. Drust are shown in game as Vrykul (as you corrected me) or regular human. They are never shown to look like kul tiran. And kul tiran are definitely different to both regular human and vrykul as well.

drust are vrykul, therefore they look like vrykul

Kul'tirans look like vrykuls, therefore, they look like drust

I didn't brought elves to this discussion. The thing with these kul tirans is that you are clamining they have drust origin in a way it is already written in chronicles and it is valid part of the lore, while it is ONLY A SPECULATION. It is a mere theory now, which is not confirmed or even commented on by Blizzard. While I have no problem to create theories and speculations, you can't claim it is like that.

there is evidence in the Ulfar quotes, supported by their appearence, and again, this is just to show more difference of the variants

Even if they come out public saying no, there is no drust blood on then yada yada, they are still different, not just "culturally", unlike elves, like people want to put in the same bag

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

Yeah I've already noticed that. Evading the line of debate to create an ideal environment for X point is a dirty but reliable weapon. Although I plead guilty to playing the game because I love exposing those kinds of people.

The problem is whatever argument is being made gets torn into smaller, contextless tidbits, to the point what is being argued is lost. makes me wish there was an ignore function.

[Syegfryed]

You know, y'all free to discuss whatever you like, but can I say that continuing to indulge Syeg on his "one sentence" reply style, creating huge posts on each page, really takes out the joy of coming to this page and discuss?

Between Syeg continuing to drag people into inane sentence-by-sentence discussion and Ravenmoon's highborne rants, this thread just feels so much worse yo.

who is "dragging" me into the discussion, is the dude you replied and the Ilenia guy, cause they apparently think this is a fight and they have to win, i was already gone when i left a comment about how void elves should not get all the blood elves customization

And you can always ignore other users, lets not pretend this thread wasn't always like this too.

In this line we are talking about situations not races.

??? we are talking about races, pandaren is the same race, the elves are not

And how do you know that the Velves are a different race if they have not procreated?

their mutation, their racials, their description, etc

you integrate your perception and convert it as an absolute concept. At no time does Ion make it clear what faction identity means.

faction identity also means no races going neutral in both factions, since races make a big chunk of the identity of a faction, this is supported by Ion take on why not HE but VE

How can you know if the current culture of the Helves has not been fully explored?

how can you say they became different too? the only contact with high elves show they are still thallasian elves, mainly the silver covenant

evidence supported by observation

you are going to keep saying the same wrong thing?

Just as they talked about stormwind and kul'tiran humans?

no.. there is clearly difference between then, and they literally talked about their differences

last chase of redemption.

check the previous comment, answering this question, i know you are doing on purpose

Look. You are basing a principle on a premise supported by an assumption, not on facts

like you said

evidence supported by observation

It is not that it seems to you. There are grammatical rules that fit any text. You are not following those rules and you are causing a confusión (for yourself) with the subjects in the context.

Seems like you are overthinking quotes of an old drust druid, wanting then to be the perfect form of english

it make no sense for him to say the thornspeaker descendants and only refers as the normal humans, hell, if he was talking about just normal humans, make no sense to use the word descendants at all

Of course there are visual differences (canonical or not),

and again, there is not, and if its not canonical its not valid

Try to fight with valid arguments not with emotions.

there is no "emotions" friend, i said i can use if i want, because its true, im free to do that, if you don't think i can, that is up to you, i will not change that.

and again, there is no contradiction in his words, you are confusing ingame things mostly due to the gameplay with canon sources

You are the one who twists a text that is perfectly understandable. 3 out of 4 people who have touched the text in the debate have understood it in the same way.

ironically, 3 out of 4 are helf supporters/sympathizers, such coincidence

Have being proved wrong by whom?

canon sources and developers saying they have no difference whatsoever

So, only Ion is right and the other blizzard spokespersons have no valid points. keep going dude

other blizzard spokepersons said the kul'tirans are another variant/breed of humans, guess we are going to ignore that too