Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[Combatbutler]

So, if elf eyes shine the magic they consumed and high elves are not addicted to magic. how can they have blue eyes? Isn’t blue eyes stand for arcane or mana- old sunwell- ?

They are addicted the same way blood elves are, they just went about it differently.

Nowadays they are connected to the sunwell, meaning being blasted with magic again 24/7

[ravenmoon]

On the highborne kaldorei topic: I think I as a player who fell in love with the art style the the "lore fragments" by blizzard, am still utterly confused by the fact that the kaldorei abadonned arcane magic after Azsharas reign but still elune's moon magic seems to be somehow half light magic half arcane magic.
Maybe they should somehow throw in some explanation into the game that clears all the fog of Shendralar and playable kaldorei mages, Tyrande is gone in rage mode and Shandris taking up the leadership. Maybe she is more tolerant than Tyrande. Also let's see what "highborne"-esque customisations really come when night elves are finally selectable in the beta builds again.

On the high elf topic: I really hope they add some less "blue"/"purple" based hair colors for void elves. The skin and eyes are a very good start though.

Well, if you read the books, you would know that what was banned was using the well of Eternity to cast arcane spells. Because as far as the night elves knew, using the Well lit up Azeroth like a beaccon in the twisting nether, which drew the Legion to the world, and the well is the only powerful enough source capable of summomning the demons.

This is why the Well restored was bad news, not because they hated the arcane or elven civilization nonsense that some hordies are saying, - restoring the Well meant the demons had a reason and means to return to Azeroth - this is in the Sundering book. Night elves believed the demons goal was the magic of their well, and the only way to do their great magic was through the well.

You see, this is why Nordrassil is grown over the well, it is masking (i.e. hiding) the power of the well from magic users and the twisting nether) and using the well for magic is banned... if the well is the only way to use such magics, as far as the night elves know, then it's the same thing. We may abbreviate saying banned the arcane.. but technically speaking it was banning the practice of the arcane using the Well of Eternity to avoid and prevent any reason or means for the Legion to return. Notice how the Well is used for Moonwells and enhancing the land - if they hated arcane magic or the arcane itself, they would not touch it or apply it so. I and others keep trying to explain to hordies, but they only seem to be interested in why night elves shouldn't be good at magic or live in amazing cities - (I presume so that only the horde elves can).

When animals like Moonkin and lizards, or night elf priests and druids use spells like Starfire and starfall the race is famous for using moon/star spells (we see mages of the Nightborne and Moonguard use some too), they are mainly drawing from the stars and moon as their source, not using the well or magic of Azeroth- as such Azeroth isn't lit up at all - those magics don't count.

Furthermore, we don't know if the priests and druids were using those spells during the long vigil, we first witness them using them once the Legion already returns, where they are fully allowing the alliance to use arcane magic too, just like the night elven defenders used it I the war of the ancients. Arcane usage of itself has never been the problem, the only reason it is stopped is to prevent the Legion returning.

I don't think the night elves early on realised that Well's implosion had released magic into the atmosphere and you could use that to do powerful arcane spells - if you read WotA you realise this also. It makes sense because if they stop using the arcane after the implosion, how would they find out? The high elves, who later teach the humans are the ones that make this discovery. I can't know for sure if the night elves of the long vigil didn't know. The ones in Eldre'thalas had the pylons and magic from Immol'thar, and the ones in Suramar had the Nightwell, the Shen'drlaar would obviously have known, but just like the high elves needed a power source like the Sunwell, they still needed something like Immol'thar to do bigger things, in the way the night elves were doing in the pre-sundering era.

[Lorca]

Just saying about this part, we can see your post, and if someone have quoted you before we can see they quoted "Vlindrel" but when we click on the quote, then we get to a post, which is there still, but the user is set as deleted. But a quick search does not show you being in this particular thread before. But that's maybe beside your point.

https://www.mmo-champion.com/search....rchid=64783837

So people can only see your old name if quoted, if not it's of course hard to see which user that "deleted user" refers to :P

I don't think I had posted with that account in this threat -didn't say that I did as I honestly don't remember doing it-, as I usually just like reading and not posting, because it always ends up more in never ending arguments than in friendly exchanges of ideas. But, yeah, I've been following this threat for more than two weeks, closely to each creation, and without a doubt before BfA started. I am interested in the lore and this threat has had a lot of movement for a long time. Also, I like seeing the creations for customization that some posters share -hairstyles, tattoos and so on-.

In any case, I don't know how not posting actively here makes my opinion about the subject worse or not apt, as @Ielenia is suggesting, as I read most of the lore regarding the High Elves and the Blood Elves and also read what people here was commenting. I just care about the details, as many other people here do too.

[Aucald]

sometimes I wonder if they purposely make Vereesa ugly in the comics to detract away fans from liking her

This particular comic should probably be taken with a grain of salt as concerns visual representations - it is widely considered the worst from an artistic standpoint (YMMV of course as concerns the subjectivity of art).

[ravenmoon]

The Issue of Night Elven Cities and Architecture
@MyWholeLifeIsThunder, @Rhlor , @Alanar and @Gurluas - this is for you.


Are you telling me because trolls have strawhat architecture in places like Sen’jin village and the villages outside Zul’Aman or other places like Arathi and Hinterlands, suddenly means they aren’t capable and won’t build cities like Zul’Gurub, Atal’dazar or Zul'Aman? Yet all of a sudden this is the case only for night elves?

This is what you’re saying, night elf village architecture is basically what blizzard should use for night elf cities, when you full well know the style changes and goes much higher when it comes to cities and you full well know that Suramar and Zin’Azshari are also night elven cities built by the same night elves who can build small rural places like Auberdine and Lor’danel, are capable of building much nicer and brighter like the temples and warrior terrace in Darnassus (pre-sundering style) and the towers of Zin’Azshari or courts of Suramar. Yet the race


I tell you what this is, it’s just a case of Horde fans not wanting alliance fans to have the cool night elf stuff.
Just like they don’t alliance fans having high elves – because they’re pretty. It looks like the horde doesn’t want the alliance getting any of the nice pretty elven stuff. They want them in rural, backwards s , ruins or homeless environs. Want them with humans but not to have the elven legacy. This is what this is all about 1000 pages of back and forth. Alliance fans saying this is alliance fans stuff too, horde fans saying, no this isn’t. It is the same reason why you feel Night elves don't do arcane magic, when you know they do, feel it is wrong or a mistake by blizzard when if you paid attention to their lore it's been there with them in a major and minor ways , in all their classes and all their societies and is the most basic attribute of the Elf race, for which they are the original and most experienced and diverse of all the elven racial off shoots.


I’m sorry , I’m not buying that b/s excuse to get night elves less than what is already shown as night elven.

What makes you think there won’t be night elves who want to live in beautiful cities and temples? Because some night elves build wood homes and villages it means all night elves like that and all night elven cities would be that? What is good for villages and towns is not necessarily what cities are made for. And you full well know there are priests and Highborne as well as civilians who you know already prefer and love the cities they live in, the very ones who like the woodland homes don’t actually like cities, why oh why would they build a city after them? Did every night elf move to Darnassus? No, not all like cities, did every night elf stay in the forest, barrow dens and forest homes? No - if that was all they wanted and liked Darnassus a permanent location would be all trees. But Night elves aren't tree elves, wood elves or forest elves, even though that is a core part of their identity. You know some of them are very different from that (arcane wielders on the whole), and some of them enjoy both (preists in general), but every individual would have their preference, and the choice of livingin a beautiful elegant capital can be based on preference as well as necessity if that's the seat of Government and you work in government.


From a Fan Perspective
I wonder how you would feel if blizzard gave the night elves Suramar, or gave them a capital that looked even better , using the style they used for Suramar and Zin’azshari, and other marble/stone night elf architecture ? This is not rhetorical, please answer, you as a horde fan, your feelings.

While I don’t think I can understand why you’re so against night elves having that architecture, and no, I don’t believe it’s because you think the Darnassians have moved away from that, it doesn’t make sense as I've explained a few times before, whether they’ve all become druids that want to live in trees, doesn’t stop you or anyone for wanting something better or different, nor does it mean that night elves wouldn't change to want something different. We already saw them change after the sundering to live the long vigil military life - we know to protect the world from their return, and we saw them again change their lifestyle again after the events of WC3 and in the wake of Cataclysm. We understand exactly why they stopped using arcane magic and didn't rebuild civilization, now that reason is gone, are we to understand that they wouldn't want that? Not only is this unreasonable to think this of every night elf, there is also no indication of it. Also even if there was, it doesn't mean they can't change

So why do you have a problem of fans wanting night elf stuff they find cool being available to night elves? I can't see it. Even if you really loved the druidic culture and tree homes, how does having a night elven marble wonder city somehow mean you can't have tree homes and forests? It doesn't stop it in the slightest, surely the solution is that you give night elf cities for fans who love that side of the night elves and you keep the forest for those who love that side, and you have the night elves of the cities having that and those of the forest having that.


You see, when I see this

and this

Is what this race is capable for cityscape, please tell me why I would want their city to look like

or

Which would you prefer? Honestly? Why would you think I would want village/outpost material to be used for a city, of a race I like that can do cities like Suramar and Zin'Azshari.

Aren't the buildings in this:

and

Much nicer than the buildings in

For me, as a person who loves night elves, I want them in the best their race can offer, I’m always going to want the nicer, prettier and better buildings and stuff for them. What is your motivation?

They are both night elven, and I ell you which one I would hope for night elves to have (especially in a city). You tell me nigh elves don’t build like that anymore and distanced themselves from that, you’re wrong, but even if you were right, as a fan, I’d rather hope for them to build like that and have that as their home, than have that one instead.

What should belizzard as developers then do? After having designed something incredible like Zin’Azshari and Suramar for night elf civilization? Make night elves unable to live there? Make it for horde elves instead? Do you understand how terrible and annoying that feels to night elf and alliance fans… clever and fake excuses like this is not what night elves do anymore will fall on deaf ears. Fans will highlight Darnssus, will recall the Highborne and arcane magic returned, will highlight the long vigil is over, and they are doing civilization again – and will ask do explain why night elves somehow cannot decide to do something much nicer and prettier or rise to the occasion…. Please explain why you will design something much uglier and leave it to waste or worse give it to the horde instead? Is this not bias? They will then ask horde fans how they would feel if Atal'dazar and Silvermoon were taken over to the alliance and the Zandalari and Blood elves were homeless living as refugees or in ruins. But then expect Nelf fans to be fine about it.

I tell you what this is, it’s just a case of Horde fans not wanting alliance fans to have the cool night elf stuff.
Just like they don’t alliance fans having high elves – because they’re pretty. It looks like the horde doesn’t want the alliance getting any of the nice pretty elven stuff. They want them in rural, backwards s , ruins or homeless environs. Want them with humans but not to have the elven legacy. This is what this is all about 1000 pages of back and forth. Alliance fans saying this is alliance fans stuff too, horde fans saying, no this isn’t. It is the same reason why you feel Night elves don't do arcane magic, when you know they do, feel it is wrong or a mistake by blizzard when if you paid attention to their lore it's been there with them in a major and minor ways , in all their classes and all their societies and is the most basic attribute of the Elf race, for which they are the original and most experienced and diverse of all the elven racial off shoots.





Blizzard Gave These to Night Elves - Why Shouldn't Night elves Have Both Kinds Available?
Maybe I’m this way because blizzard actually gave the race this sort of stuff, if this wasn’t night elf architecture, I wouldn’t be wanting it for night elves. But I can tell you this, long before Legion expansion gave ingame Suramar or Warbringers Azshara showed Zin'Azshari, from reading the novels, the WC3 manual and seeing the extensive ruins, I’ve always wanted to see a night elf pre-sundering city and wanted the night elves to be in that. This does not mean I hate the forest, I main a druid, I love the forest trust me, but I love it's not the only thing to night elves, and I like the cityscape and civilization side of them too, so naturally I want to see them have that as well as the forest stuff.

In the wake of a lot of forest stuff been shown for night elves, what makes you think night elf fans wouldn't want a gorgeous great city and maybe a smaller one with a town or two like this? Seriously.. none of it means the removal of the forest ones, and all of them are night elven. And trust me, if I like night elves, I shouldn't have to roll Nightborne sub-race or cross to a faction who's character I don't like in order to experience that.

The way I read their story is that they had something great that was destroyed by something evil. Their Queen got addicted because of her arrogance, and that led to reckless irresponsible actions that brought the Legion that destroyed all

The civilization was described as wondrous and beautiful as the lore tells it, this is how the lore views it, you don’t use such words if it was evil and corrupt or hated - none of which the Lore ever mentions or shows. It shows the Queen and the palace Highborne court becoming evil and corrupt, and the Legion destroying everything all the night elves had built together, not just one group or one individual, everything they built. The same night elves, then endure 10k years without their wondrous things, their good things, incredible things, also their comforts, their cool things, a lot of improvements and progress, endure all this instead dedicating their lives to preventing the return of the Legion, t the cost of using their magic and restoring their lives. Do you not see, this is endured because they have to. They put away arcane magic, civilization, building a society and nation, any form of rebuilding, not because they despised the former, but because they were protecting the world and I'm sure some viewed it as making up for their folly.

Long Vigil and a Well Earned Restoration.
That’s 10k years in a military state, unwilling for the sake of the world to rebuild themselves up, just to protect it…I’m greatly touched by this, and this from many night elves who did not agree with or bend knee to the evil of the legion

They did not deserve to have their civilization so destroyed like that, and they’ve more than paid for it with 10k years of duty and responsibility. They more than any other night elf group deserve to have restored some of the wonders they produced in a world they sacrificed so much to preserve and paid heavy price in order to do it.

The way I see it, they have more than earned returning to that wondrous state, and rebuilding. They don’t need to be an empire to get a few cool zones, cool cities and towns, and great forests.

The way I see it, they also have everything to create the gorgeous wondrous cities from their best era, as well as the incredible forests from the long vigil era. Even if they didn't, in known lore, I would write lore for them to gain what they need. Fortunately it's already there, the Shen'drlar (the architects and magical engineers of the Queen's top projects and wonders - are still around, as well as other Highborne from the day, the Ancient druids who's magic combined with the elves' magic buil those things are still around the trees are about and they pass all their memories down - the info is all there. Darnassus showed an incredible feat without arcane magic back in the group, it should be more than possible with what they have now. and if it wasn't I 'd make it so.

They more so than the Shen'dralar, the Nightborne groups deserve the best their race has to offer and can produce. They've done well, suffered the most, and did so without compromise. Of all the elven groups, these ones should.

Why Night Elf Fans Want These
Now, while I don't speak for everyone, I find it unbelievable I have to explain why someone would want cool things. When you genuinely like something you want it to be the best it has to offer. And the buildings and cities, life in the pre-sundering era was the best the race achieved. What was bad about it was when they got arrogant , addicted and reckless… it was an attitude of some of the ruling class that was bad, not the entire thing. It was the Evil legion that destroyed their Empire and civilization.. the civilization, the magical wonders, the magic itself, things were not bad and you know it


So I don’t understand why horde fans keep trying to badger night elf fans who want he wondrous stuff for the race, trying to make it seem like the night elves wouldn’t want that because the Long vigil moved away from that (they claim - a false claim they cannot verify ofc), all while failing to account for the reasons why these moves are happening, and clearly not having night elves’ beset interests at heart, they’re horde supporters, they don’t care about nigh elves. My conclusion is they're obviously not looking for the faction they don't play to have cool things or things "better" than theirs even if the lore gives it such..afterall, people who like elves love that sort of thing, so if you put some of it on the horde but not on the alliance, and the alliance want it, the horde jealous /greedy types aren't going to want them to have it. (I notice most horde fans ARE NOT like this, it is specific minority)

Why should I listen to what you want for a race you don’t particularly like or care about, why are you trying to persuade me using bad arguments , not to want or desire more, or to feel that night elves won’t get more. Neither you nor I ultimately determine that, and I can assure you, players would prefer the nice stuff over the not so nice stuff.

I tell you what this is, it’s just a case of Horde fans not wanting alliance fans to have the cool night elf stuff.
Just like they don’t alliance fans having high elves – because they’re pretty. It looks like the horde doesn’t want the alliance getting any of the nice pretty elven stuff. They want them in rural, backwards s , ruins or homeless environs. Want them with humans but not to have the elven legacy. This is what this is all about 1000 pages of back and forth. Alliance fans saying this is alliance fans stuff too, horde fans saying, no this isn’t. It is the same reason why you feel Night elves don't do arcane magic, when you know they do, feel it is wrong or a mistake by blizzard when if you paid attention to their lore it's been there with them in a major and minor ways , in all their classes and all their societies and is the most basic attribute of the Elf race, for which they are the original and most experienced and diverse of all the elven racial off shoots.



I f blizzard came out in 10.0 and gave Zin’Azshari fully restored or Suramar as the night elf capital, not one night elf player would go "oh blizzard this is terrible!", "I don’t want this blizzar", "this isn’t night elven blizzard, it belongs to the horde blizzard" , " oh blizzard I prefer night elf forest villages and tree homes for cities" … err, no! Not one, because players like cool and incredible things, and they would want the best for the race they like. For the night elves, the best cityscapes are what we’ve seen for Suramar and Zin’Azshari, I honestly don’t understand your claim that night elves would prefer Auberdine/Lor’danel type architecture over that, nor would the fans.

So I’m not going to take my cue for what night elves want or like from player that love trolls, BElves and races that hate the Night elves. Sorry.



Conclusion
So in conclusion, let me ask you, what is it to you about night elves not having this, you're not mainly fans of the race or faction, your motive is suspicious. You mean you don't understand why Night elf fans like myself would want really cool looking night elf cityscape like Suramar or Zin'Azshari - you think we don't like it at all, and don't find it cool - just because the Legion rwrecked it and Azshara misused her power to call them? DO you think everyone hates useful tools that can be used for immense good because someone gets too arrogant and bauses their power? Or hate something they loved greatly because someone else destroyed it?

[Lahis]

You have a goddamn unhealthy obsession about something Night Elves on Kalimdor abandoned 10k years ago.

[Ignaz]

and i think im free to do that

Not in a debate where you want to make your point.

they are beings infused with fel energy, the difference is how DH sucked a demon soul, i do think there is a possibility to remove it, like it happened with raw energy

It is a possibility, but it cannot be proved yet; therefore, it becomes irrelevant as evidence.

Blizzard said blood and high elves are the same thing, sace race biologically and everything else, the only difference is their political allegiance, end.

I'm not saying that Blizzard hasn't said it.
In wow universe, if Blizzard says so it's true for that universe, but not for our universe. That's why you can't use real life science to explain your fantasy game point, end.

this "discussion" came out because people think there is a big difference between races and playable races, and for then "playable races" receive a completely new meaning and therefore it can happen anyway

No, our discussion started when you try to use scientific principles to try to shape your point about a fantasy world.
And demographically speaking, there is a difference between playable race and race (it's obvious).

having the same model doesn't matter, they re still different races

It does matter a lot. Mannerisms and expressions are an important part of identity. If you put a bag on the head of an iconic character and see him/her move, you will identify him/her, that is to identify a known pattern. Now put a bag on the head of a Belf, would you not identify him/her?

there is difference on then

A difference that you deny at the same time.

this don't say we can't use some of the "real-world science" to explain some things

You can't because you would find a sea of contradictions

like i said, always existed

Then, show me the sources with which you can prove that since the beginning of Warcraft there were black Helves and it wasn't an inclusive Blizzard campaign for Shadowlands.

their "natural" color cn be anything, elves without magic in wc3 had white eyes

Exactly. Logical.

there is a difference in eye color and eye glow color that people/blizzard messes up, Alleria eyes by example are green, but it glow blue

That proves my point

thats why im saying is not a mutation is simple their natural reaction to magic

Reread what you write. Mutations are natural and are part of biology.

already gave you examples of endomorph and ectomorph body type

and...

they sure do, if you put then in a more macro-escale and take your time, is how the process of evolution goes,

I don't know if you understand the scale you're talking about. When we talk about evolutionary processes, we are not talking about a single step (from one generation to another) we are talking about a very large number of steps that represent the mutations expressed both physiologically and phenotypically, and those changes take a long time and a harsh environment to express.

couple of genes give characters that give advantage to other species,

Sure genes do, but conditioning is the one in charge of accustoming the individual to work, not genes.
If you are morbidly obese, you will not transfer your fat to your children, but if you raise your children with the same habits that you live with (and that make you obese) they will end up as morbid obese

there is tons of examples of species with a couple of genes who give then a better time in camouflage than others

Like polar bears, whose mutations took many generations to express, thus causing their near extinction due to the delay in expressing the mutation.

and thats the point, the two to the same exercises, in the same way, all of then correctly with the same time and all else, one will get ahead anyway

Taking that utopian idea (nothing according to reality, since it is impossible for two individuals to do exactly the same exercises, in the same way and with the same starting range) and taking it proportionally, there should be no difference.

[matrix123mko]

You have a goddamn unhealthy obsession about something Night Elves on Kalimdor abandoned 10k years ago.

It may be healthy. After all, writing so much is a huge exercise for finger muscles.

[FlubberPuddy]

So out of curiosity I was checking out the new Tauren options (damn so dope!) and I counted female options (including different eye color choices) and they come to about 20 new customization options in the latest preview for females alone. https://www.wowhead.com/guides/taure...ns-shadowlands

I wanted to see how this compared to Blood elf female options based on this page https://www.wowhead.com/guides/blood...ns-shadowlands

BE females come out to having over 40 options already and that's excluding that the newly datamined bracers are not on that page yet.

I counted only unique options (I didn't count a face paint style (3) in 6 different colors as 18 options, it was a face paint in each style (3) + the amount of different colors (5-6).

I think this means either there's a shit ton more customization to come for all the other races and Blood Elves for the most part might be 'done' or Blizzard are doing what I feared and some of the less popular races aren't getting as wide a variety of options as the more popular races.

[Grythletubs]

You have a goddamn unhealthy obsession about something Night Elves on Kalimdor abandoned 10k years ago.

I don't think it was abandoned, using old classic low-res wow architecture as an excuse that night elves only build huts seems a little ridiculous.
In game Darnasus is basically the size of a camp, but this is what it is in game. Lorewise it is (was) a massive city with thousands of inhabitants. The same applies to every other city in the game.
Those low-res purple stone buildings are low-res versions of the buildings we see in Suramar, aszuna and Nazjatar, because they were designed in classic. If the night elves were to rebuild their city (NOT a camp), it would no longer be low-res structures and definitely something more akin the the buildings in Azsuna, Suramar, Nazjatar with the occasional druid hut.

[Lahis]

I don't think it was abandoned, using old classic low-res wow architecture as an excuse that night elves only build huts seems a little ridiculous.
In game Darnasus is basically the size of a camp, but this is what it is in game. Lorewise it is (was) a massive city with thousands of inhabitants. The same applies to every other city in the game.
Those low-res purple stone buildings are low-res versions of the buildings we see in Suramar, aszuna and Nazjatar, because they were designed in classic. If the night elves were to rebuild their city (NOT a camp), it would no longer be low-res structures and definitely something more akin the the buildings in Azsuna, Suramar, Nazjatar with the occasional druid hut.

Even Darnassus only had one functional stone building, and that was the Temple of Elune. Rest was wooden pagodas like in the smaller settlements, just bigger.

[Doffen]

I don't think I had posted with that account in this threat -didn't say that I did as I honestly don't remember doing it-, as I usually just like reading and not posting, because it always ends up more in never ending arguments than in friendly exchanges of ideas. But, yeah, I've been following this threat for more than two weeks, closely to each creation, and without a doubt before BfA started. I am interested in the lore and this threat has had a lot of movement for a long time. Also, I like seeing the creations for customization that some posters share -hairstyles, tattoos and so on-.

In any case, I don't know how not posting actively here makes my opinion about the subject worse or not apt, as @Ielenia is suggesting, as I read most of the lore regarding the High Elves and the Blood Elves and also read what people here was commenting. I just care about the details, as many other people here do too.

I have no idea what you have said or not, just that you mention that there might still be posts here, so I was just assuming you meant here as in this thread. Was just curious about the deleted account and how that worked, so kinda helped myself trying to find you :P

[Rhlor]

The Issue of Night Elven Cities and Architecture
@MyWholeLifeIsThunder, @Rhlor , @Alanar and @Gurluas - this is for you.


Are you telling me because trolls have strawhat architecture in places like Sen’jin village and the villages outside Zul’Aman or other places like Arathi and Hinterlands, suddenly means they aren’t capable and won’t build cities like Zul’Gurub, Atal’dazar or Zul'Aman? Yet all of a sudden this is the case only for night elves?

This is what you’re saying, night elf village architecture is basically what blizzard should use for night elf cities, when you full well know the style changes and goes much higher when it comes to cities and you full well know that Suramar and Zin’Azshari are also night elven cities built by the same night elves who can build small rural places like Auberdine and Lor’danel, are capable of building much nicer and brighter like the temples and warrior terrace in Darnassus (pre-sundering style) and the towers of Zin’Azshari or courts of Suramar. Yet the race


I tell you what this is, it’s just a case of Horde fans not wanting alliance fans to have the cool night elf stuff.
Just like they don’t alliance fans having high elves – because they’re pretty. It looks like the horde doesn’t want the alliance getting any of the nice pretty elven stuff. They want them in rural, backwards s , ruins or homeless environs. Want them with humans but not to have the elven legacy. This is what this is all about 1000 pages of back and forth. Alliance fans saying this is alliance fans stuff too, horde fans saying, no this isn’t. It is the same reason why you feel Night elves don't do arcane magic, when you know they do, feel it is wrong or a mistake by blizzard when if you paid attention to their lore it's been there with them in a major and minor ways , in all their classes and all their societies and is the most basic attribute of the Elf race, for which they are the original and most experienced and diverse of all the elven racial off shoots.


I’m sorry , I’m not buying that b/s excuse to get night elves less than what is already shown as night elven.

What makes you think there won’t be night elves who want to live in beautiful cities and temples? Because some night elves build wood homes and villages it means all night elves like that and all night elven cities would be that? What is good for villages and towns is not necessarily what cities are made for. And you full well know there are priests and Highborne as well as civilians who you know already prefer and love the cities they live in, the very ones who like the woodland homes don’t actually like cities, why oh why would they build a city after them? Did every night elf move to Darnassus? No, not all like cities, did every night elf stay in the forest, barrow dens and forest homes? No - if that was all they wanted and liked Darnassus a permanent location would be all trees. But Night elves aren't tree elves, wood elves or forest elves, even though that is a core part of their identity. You know some of them are very different from that (arcane wielders on the whole), and some of them enjoy both (preists in general), but every individual would have their preference, and the choice of livingin a beautiful elegant capital can be based on preference as well as necessity if that's the seat of Government and you work in government.


From a Fan Perspective
I wonder how you would feel if blizzard gave the night elves Suramar, or gave them a capital that looked even better , using the style they used for Suramar and Zin’azshari, and other marble/stone night elf architecture ? This is not rhetorical, please answer, you as a horde fan, your feelings.

While I don’t think I can understand why you’re so against night elves having that architecture, and no, I don’t believe it’s because you think the Darnassians have moved away from that, it doesn’t make sense as I've explained a few times before, whether they’ve all become druids that want to live in trees, doesn’t stop you or anyone for wanting something better or different, nor does it mean that night elves wouldn't change to want something different. We already saw them change after the sundering to live the long vigil military life - we know to protect the world from their return, and we saw them again change their lifestyle again after the events of WC3 and in the wake of Cataclysm. We understand exactly why they stopped using arcane magic and didn't rebuild civilization, now that reason is gone, are we to understand that they wouldn't want that? Not only is this unreasonable to think this of every night elf, there is also no indication of it. Also even if there was, it doesn't mean they can't change

So why do you have a problem of fans wanting night elf stuff they find cool being available to night elves? I can't see it. Even if you really loved the druidic culture and tree homes, how does having a night elven marble wonder city somehow mean you can't have tree homes and forests? It doesn't stop it in the slightest, surely the solution is that you give night elf cities for fans who love that side of the night elves and you keep the forest for those who love that side, and you have the night elves of the cities having that and those of the forest having that.


You see, when I see this

and this


Is what this race is capable for cityscape, please tell me why I would want their city to look like



or



Which would you prefer? Honestly? Why would you think I would want village/outpost material to be used for a city, of a race I like that can do cities like Suramar and Zin'Azshari.

Aren't the buildings in this:



and


Much nicer than the buildings in


For me, as a person who loves night elves, I want them in the best their race can offer, I’m always going to want the nicer, prettier and better buildings and stuff for them. What is your motivation?

They are both night elven, and I ell you which one I would hope for night elves to have (especially in a city). You tell me nigh elves don’t build like that anymore and distanced themselves from that, you’re wrong, but even if you were right, as a fan, I’d rather hope for them to build like that and have that as their home, than have that one instead.

What should belizzard as developers then do? After having designed something incredible like Zin’Azshari and Suramar for night elf civilization? Make night elves unable to live there? Make it for horde elves instead? Do you understand how terrible and annoying that feels to night elf and alliance fans… clever and fake excuses like this is not what night elves do anymore will fall on deaf ears. Fans will highlight Darnssus, will recall the Highborne and arcane magic returned, will highlight the long vigil is over, and they are doing civilization again – and will ask do explain why night elves somehow cannot decide to do something much nicer and prettier or rise to the occasion…. Please explain why you will design something much uglier and leave it to waste or worse give it to the horde instead? Is this not bias? They will then ask horde fans how they would feel if Atal'dazar and Silvermoon were taken over to the alliance and the Zandalari and Blood elves were homeless living as refugees or in ruins. But then expect Nelf fans to be fine about it.

I tell you what this is, it’s just a case of Horde fans not wanting alliance fans to have the cool night elf stuff.
Just like they don’t alliance fans having high elves – because they’re pretty. It looks like the horde doesn’t want the alliance getting any of the nice pretty elven stuff. They want them in rural, backwards s , ruins or homeless environs. Want them with humans but not to have the elven legacy. This is what this is all about 1000 pages of back and forth. Alliance fans saying this is alliance fans stuff too, horde fans saying, no this isn’t. It is the same reason why you feel Night elves don't do arcane magic, when you know they do, feel it is wrong or a mistake by blizzard when if you paid attention to their lore it's been there with them in a major and minor ways , in all their classes and all their societies and is the most basic attribute of the Elf race, for which they are the original and most experienced and diverse of all the elven racial off shoots.





Blizzard Gave These to Night Elves - Why Shouldn't Night elves Have Both Kinds Available?
Maybe I’m this way because blizzard actually gave the race this sort of stuff, if this wasn’t night elf architecture, I wouldn’t be wanting it for night elves. But I can tell you this, long before Legion expansion gave ingame Suramar or Warbringers Azshara showed Zin'Azshari, from reading the novels, the WC3 manual and seeing the extensive ruins, I’ve always wanted to see a night elf pre-sundering city and wanted the night elves to be in that. This does not mean I hate the forest, I main a druid, I love the forest trust me, but I love it's not the only thing to night elves, and I like the cityscape and civilization side of them too, so naturally I want to see them have that as well as the forest stuff.

In the wake of a lot of forest stuff been shown for night elves, what makes you think night elf fans wouldn't want a gorgeous great city and maybe a smaller one with a town or two like this? Seriously.. none of it means the removal of the forest ones, and all of them are night elven. And trust me, if I like night elves, I shouldn't have to roll Nightborne sub-race or cross to a faction who's character I don't like in order to experience that.

The way I read their story is that they had something great that was destroyed by something evil. Their Queen got addicted because of her arrogance, and that led to reckless irresponsible actions that brought the Legion that destroyed all

The civilization was described as wondrous and beautiful as the lore tells it, this is how the lore views it, you don’t use such words if it was evil and corrupt or hated - none of which the Lore ever mentions or shows. It shows the Queen and the palace Highborne court becoming evil and corrupt, and the Legion destroying everything all the night elves had built together, not just one group or one individual, everything they built. The same night elves, then endure 10k years without their wondrous things, their good things, incredible things, also their comforts, their cool things, a lot of improvements and progress, endure all this instead dedicating their lives to preventing the return of the Legion, t the cost of using their magic and restoring their lives. Do you not see, this is endured because they have to. They put away arcane magic, civilization, building a society and nation, any form of rebuilding, not because they despised the former, but because they were protecting the world and I'm sure some viewed it as making up for their folly.

Long Vigil and a Well Earned Restoration.
That’s 10k years in a military state, unwilling for the sake of the world to rebuild themselves up, just to protect it…I’m greatly touched by this, and this from many night elves who did not agree with or bend knee to the evil of the legion

They did not deserve to have their civilization so destroyed like that, and they’ve more than paid for it with 10k years of duty and responsibility. They more than any other night elf group deserve to have restored some of the wonders they produced in a world they sacrificed so much to preserve and paid heavy price in order to do it.

The way I see it, they have more than earned returning to that wondrous state, and rebuilding. They don’t need to be an empire to get a few cool zones, cool cities and towns, and great forests.

The way I see it, they also have everything to create the gorgeous wondrous cities from their best era, as well as the incredible forests from the long vigil era. Even if they didn't, in known lore, I would write lore for them to gain what they need. Fortunately it's already there, the Shen'drlar (the architects and magical engineers of the Queen's top projects and wonders - are still around, as well as other Highborne from the day, the Ancient druids who's magic combined with the elves' magic buil those things are still around the trees are about and they pass all their memories down - the info is all there. Darnassus showed an incredible feat without arcane magic back in the group, it should be more than possible with what they have now. and if it wasn't I 'd make it so.

They more so than the Shen'dralar, the Nightborne groups deserve the best their race has to offer and can produce. They've done well, suffered the most, and did so without compromise. Of all the elven groups, these ones should.

Why Night Elf Fans Want These
Now, while I don't speak for everyone, I find it unbelievable I have to explain why someone would want cool things. When you genuinely like something you want it to be the best it has to offer. And the buildings and cities, life in the pre-sundering era was the best the race achieved. What was bad about it was when they got arrogant , addicted and reckless… it was an attitude of some of the ruling class that was bad, not the entire thing. It was the Evil legion that destroyed their Empire and civilization.. the civilization, the magical wonders, the magic itself, things were not bad and you know it


So I don’t understand why horde fans keep trying to badger night elf fans who want he wondrous stuff for the race, trying to make it seem like the night elves wouldn’t want that because the Long vigil moved away from that (they claim - a false claim they cannot verify ofc), all while failing to account for the reasons why these moves are happening, and clearly not having night elves’ beset interests at heart, they’re horde supporters, they don’t care about nigh elves. My conclusion is they're obviously not looking for the faction they don't play to have cool things or things "better" than theirs even if the lore gives it such..afterall, people who like elves love that sort of thing, so if you put some of it on the horde but not on the alliance, and the alliance want it, the horde jealous /greedy types aren't going to want them to have it. (I notice most horde fans ARE NOT like this, it is specific minority)

Why should I listen to what you want for a race you don’t particularly like or care about, why are you trying to persuade me using bad arguments , not to want or desire more, or to feel that night elves won’t get more. Neither you nor I ultimately determine that, and I can assure you, players would prefer the nice stuff over the not so nice stuff.

I tell you what this is, it’s just a case of Horde fans not wanting alliance fans to have the cool night elf stuff.
Just like they don’t alliance fans having high elves – because they’re pretty. It looks like the horde doesn’t want the alliance getting any of the nice pretty elven stuff. They want them in rural, backwards s , ruins or homeless environs. Want them with humans but not to have the elven legacy. This is what this is all about 1000 pages of back and forth. Alliance fans saying this is alliance fans stuff too, horde fans saying, no this isn’t. It is the same reason why you feel Night elves don't do arcane magic, when you know they do, feel it is wrong or a mistake by blizzard when if you paid attention to their lore it's been there with them in a major and minor ways , in all their classes and all their societies and is the most basic attribute of the Elf race, for which they are the original and most experienced and diverse of all the elven racial off shoots.



I f blizzard came out in 10.0 and gave Zin’Azshari fully restored or Suramar as the night elf capital, not one night elf player would go "oh blizzard this is terrible!", "I don’t want this blizzar", "this isn’t night elven blizzard, it belongs to the horde blizzard" , " oh blizzard I prefer night elf forest villages and tree homes for cities" … err, no! Not one, because players like cool and incredible things, and they would want the best for the race they like. For the night elves, the best cityscapes are what we’ve seen for Suramar and Zin’Azshari, I honestly don’t understand your claim that night elves would prefer Auberdine/Lor’danel type architecture over that, nor would the fans.

So I’m not going to take my cue for what night elves want or like from player that love trolls, BElves and races that hate the Night elves. Sorry.



Conclusion
So in conclusion, let me ask you, what is it to you about night elves not having this, you're not mainly fans of the race or faction, your motive is suspicious. You mean you don't understand why Night elf fans like myself would want really cool looking night elf cityscape like Suramar or Zin'Azshari - you think we don't like it at all, and don't find it cool - just because the Legion rwrecked it and Azshara misused her power to call them? DO you think everyone hates useful tools that can be used for immense good because someone gets too arrogant and bauses their power? Or hate something they loved greatly because someone else destroyed it?

I like night elves my first character in wow was a night elf, obviously later I became a blood elf and now I play only horde. I'm going to tell you what I think

1) the night elves decided not to rebuild any of the ruins in kalimdor they were able to do so but instead built new structures with an architectural style that could be said to be druidic.
2) the elves who loved arcane magic and wanted to build cities in the night elf society were exiled by Malfurion and created quelthalas.
3) I personally thought that the nightborne would be a good allied race of the night elves (at that time we called that idea sub-race and surely you remember that) but many players in the alliance said that the nightborne had to be from the horde and the alliance had to have the blood elf model. and in the end that happened now suramar is the capital of a playable horde race and suramar's architectural style is part of what the horde is.
3) night elves must have highborne personalization there is a group of shendrelar (not all shendrelar) who joined the darnassian in recent years but they are a small group and therefore their representation within these societies cannot be the prevailing one when druids rule.
4) the architectural style of the night elves can be seen clearly in what was their racial capital! It is in the capital where all the culture of that society was clearly visible and what we see makes it clear to us what type of buildings were used by the Darnassians







that was darnassus the capital of the night elves was the maximum point of the civilization that they created after abandoning the imperial style.

night elves should have cities that respect their cultural identity, obviously I think shendrelars could have an arcane-oriented district in night elves cities because they are part of that society and deserve representation but the main culture is the one that always we saw in today's Darnassian society.
zin azshari from my personal point of view should be a city shared by all the elves since they all have a relationship with it.

[Syegfryed]

Not in a debate where you want to make your point.

this isn't rly a debate, we are just discussing things for giggles, cause most of things are already set in stone

That's why you can't use real life science to explain your fantasy game point, end.

and im saying that until proved otherwise by then, we can do that

No, our discussion started when you try to use scientific principles to try to shape your point about a fantasy world.
And demographically speaking, there is a difference between playable race and race (it's obvious).

to be fair, other people were discussing different principles of the "races" and "playable races", i was merely trying to bring a point about that not being the case in the elf dilemma

It does matter a lot. Mannerisms and expressions are an important part of identity. If you put a bag on the head of an iconic character and see him/her move, you will identify him/her, that is to identify a known pattern. Now put a bag on the head of a Belf, would you not identify him/her?

but our point of discussion in general here is not identifying is it? its about actual races, themes

A difference that you deny at the same time.

i didn't though

You can't because you would find a sea of contradictions

but you still can try, its what we always do, try to find some meaning and pattern

Then, show me the sources with which you can prove that since the beginning of Warcraft there were black Helves and it wasn't an inclusive Blizzard campaign for Shadowlands.

You sure think they will say "its just our inclusive campaign guys"? we had a Q&A recently saying those options are all lore friendly, and were things that already existed, they just didn't had the means to do it.

call it retcon or anything else, but is canon now

Reread what you write. Mutations are natural and are part of biology.

But that alone isn't a mutation, a tan isn't a mutation

I don't know if you understand the scale you're talking about. When we talk about evolutionary processes, we are not talking about a single step (from one generation to another) we are talking about a very large number of steps that represent the mutations expressed both physiologically and phenotypically, and those changes take a long time and a harsh environment to express.

thats... what im talking about all of this is about trade of genes too

Sure genes do, but conditioning is the one in charge of accustoming the individual to work, not genes.

and like i said, there is genes to make conditioning better or easier

If you are morbidly obese, you will not transfer your fat to your children, but if you raise your children with the same habits that you live with (and that make you obese) they will end up as morbid obese

but if you have a couple of genes who give you predisposition to obesity, there is big chances for that to go to your children

Taking that utopian idea (nothing according to reality, since it is impossible for two individuals to do exactly the same exercises, in the same way and with the same starting range) and taking it proportionally, there should be no difference.

if one have predisposition and have a "better genetic" is more likely to have difference

[Amaterasu65]

Dunno why there's such a debate on black skinned elves. Even if there wasn't any dark-skinned Thalassian elf in the lore, it really doesn't matter much in gameplay after so many years of Blizzard doing stuff contradicting the lore. People can play as a dark skinned elf and that's it. They can justify the black skin to the elf being a half-elf born from a black human and an elf. New short ears can easily support this! Just be happy we get more choices so that players can immerse themselves in the game more by having customizations that appeal to them, or represent them.

And yeah, ofc it is an inclusivity tactic by Blizzard. It's not bad that Blizzard is staying modern.

[Rhlor]

asian high elf

[delus]

this isn't rly a debate, we are just discussing things for giggles, cause most of things are already set in stone



and im saying that until proved otherwise by then, we can do that



to be fair, other people were discussing different principles of the "races" and "playable races", i was merely trying to bring a point about that not being the case in the elf dilemma


but our point of discussion in general here is not identifying is it? its about actual races, themes


i didn't though


but you still can try, its what we always do, try to find some meaning and pattern


You sure think they will say "its just our inclusive campaign guys"? we had a Q&A recently saying those options are all lore friendly, and were things that already existed, they just didn't had the means to do it.

call it retcon or anything else, but is canon now



But that alone isn't a mutation, a tan isn't a mutation



thats... what im talking about all of this is about trade of genes too



and like i said, there is genes to make conditioning better or easier


but if you have a couple of genes who give you predisposition to obesity, there is big chances for that to go to your children



if one have predisposition and have a "better genetic" is more likely to have difference

I think all the talk of genetics is irrelevant when discussing a magical world. In the real world lighter skin allows for a greater production of vitamin D which is useful in areas with less sunlight. Quel'thalas is north of Azeroth's equator so the elves would be lighter skinned according to the rules of our reality. In short, brown skinned Thalassians are just for funzies. Don't overthink it any more than that.

[FlubberPuddy]

Don't overthink it any more than that.

I think he's just choosing to continue with his illogical logic as his first line there says he's not debating and just discussing 'for giggles' or as I often see it with such posters "I want to always have the Last Word".

Not sure if @Ielenia or @Ignaz have picked up on that yet.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

Honestly @ravenmoon this is neither the place for this discussion nor is it one I even care to have at all. Is just wild to see people that claim to be NE fans to so deeply misrepresent what night elves actually are. This is the Ur example of liking something for what you want it to be above what it is. It's not even an issue if I agree with NE's going back to the imperial aesthetic, but how you can dismiss every and all evidence that doesn't suit your flimsy argument.

Back to HE's the topic at hand; this new bastion unicorn recolor is basically an upscaled quel'dorei steed lol.

[Edward Wu]

Honestly @ravenmoon this is neither the place for this discussion nor is it one I even care to have at all. Is just wild to see people that claim to be NE fans to so deeply misrepresent what night elves actually are. This is the Ur example of liking something for what you want it to be above what it is. It's not even an issue if I agree with NE's going back to the imperial aesthetic, but how you can dismiss every and all evidence that doesn't suit your flimsy argument.

Back to HE's the topic at hand; this new bastion unicorn recolor is basically an upscaled quel'dorei steed lol.

That's going to look great on my Alliance High Elf.