Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[FlubberPuddy]

Aww not even on the list

You're between Darththeo and Varodoc, specifically the orange slice

Yeah, fighting to get something rather than trying to hover why those who fight for it are not getting it is a clear win to me!

Also, I love how it shows that even the most prominent poster against High Elves being included only 'cared' half as much about em lol

Brings my earlier point home where I said that the people who are against it wouldn't really care if it got added, and here we see that poster has since then retired from posting here.

Because we're finally getting High Elves and no one's life nor the game's identity is turning itself upside down over a few extra character customization decisions.

[Ignaz]

When you think only a "perfect" solution/proof is valide, when something does not require a perfection

that's not even a fallacy.
To understand scientific principles, it requires the closest thing to perfection that exists (since perfection is untouchable). Scientific theory is black and white, so you cannot adapt it to a fantastic world where there is no theoretical consistency.

Seeing the fact they never end up doing a neutral race again, and firmly going against the idea of blurring the faction lines when asked, and since pandarens are in the limbo of the race development getting nothing since their introduction... does not look like they end up liking it.

Evidence proves otherwise. Regarding the ideas of race that blizzard manages, playable race ends up being translated as a playable group, and that is why you find the same races (in the context of the species) being playable as different options; both in the same faction and in different factions.
Velves are an example. Although they are not available in 1 playable option for both factions like pandaren, they end up being the same; Until Blizzard sets out to create Velves children, they will remain Belves corrupted by the void.
Saying that a Velf is another race is like saying that someone with cancer is a different race. and saying that a kul'tiran human is another race is like saying that someone who goes to the gym and increases their muscle mass becomes another race.

you have no idea, you think you are the first one or something?

Believe me, i'm not the first to see through you. I don't deserve that credit.

nope, just cold reality, saw a lot of arguments saying exactly that, why do you think kul'tirans discussion come up here in the first place? exactly because people used as an argument of "same race only with cultural differences" can be playable look at kul'tiran high elves are totally possible because of that!!1!!1!

So does the fact that the example of another race coincides have to be wrong?
what I see is that this example does not suit you because it contradicts your point, that is why you drown in an illogical fight against grammatical laws

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Why? Why does it "make no sense"? Where does it say that druidism is something "exclusive" and there is no way other races cannot be a part of it? Humans can, for example, thanks to Gilneas. Kul'Tiras had access to druidism thanks to the Thornspeakers. They witnessed the druids during the war against the Drust, and saw their potential.

I think Tauren s learned it from Nelves (another example)

[Kyriani]

Blizzard is currently doing their best in fixing the wonky timeline issues that exist today by creating a new 'official' starting point in the game with the new island and then straight into BFA with old content being more of a sightseeing option, slapping in VE and nightborne into the DH starting area would just create another one.

I'd imagine that if any races get access to Demon Hunter from this point forward, they'd have a truncated starting experience much like the allied race and Pandaren Death Knights do. Kayn Sunfury and Altruis the Sufferer would be there and the player would pick which one of them to work with (like DH's currently do in their starting experience). There'd be a quick initial quest that awards some starting gear/weapons and off into BFA content (or chromie time) they'd go to level up and then head into Shadowlands.

[Ielenia]

Because thornspeakers have nothing to do with kul'tirans, why the kul'tirans now, descendants of the kul'tirans of old, would hear the call of the wild, instead of you know, the descendants of the thornspeakers?

Probably because the original thornspeakers are likely dead, since Ulfar is the sole living drust Thornspeaker and they left no descendants.

The idea that the drust have interbred with the Kul Tirans does not match what we see in the game, because otherwise we would still see drust living in Boralus, or at least thriving at the Thornspeaker home. Because, for your idea to be true, it means that the drust and their descendants have bred exclusively with humans and never with each other, for them to literally disappear and leave Kul Tirans that resemble in nothing the drust's original form.

And like i said, you and the others are misinterpreting his quotes, because this way it will fit more in the HE argument

Considering that, to my knowledge, you're the only one defending that particular interpretation, the most likely scenario, is that you are the one misinterpreting Ulfar's quotes. "You all are wrong, I am right" is not exactly a compelling argument to make.

Again: it's basic grammar. Ulfar is speaking of the thornspeakers as "we". He is including himself in it. Therefore, when speaking of the descendants of the thornspeakers, he would say "our descendants", but he doesn't. He says "their descendants".

However, if Ulfar had said something akin to "The other thornspeakers went to live with the Kul Tiran society, and their descendants came to us." then you'd have a point, because in the first sentence Ulfar is removing himself from the group being talked about. But he doesn't do that. At no point Ulfar removes himself from the group in that way.

they look like vrykul but fat, they are also strong, you know, their racials reflect exactly that, their face, their size, their features, but again, is expectable that they just look alike, since their drust ancestors would be from generations ago

They look nothing alike. Forearms are too thick, legs are shorter, chin is too thick, body is curved back instead of forward, etc.

No, you can see the thornspeakers, and there is none of the normal kul'tirans there being a druid.

We also see many, many thornspeakers who never leave their "animal" forms. How do you know, as absolute fact, that none of them are normal or even thin Kul Tirans?

You seem to be pretty pissed about someone else "assumptions",

I'm not pissed. I'm just pointing out how you're using your assumptions as hard facts, and use those assumptions to base your entire argumentation line. And when someone points out how they're nothing but assumptions, you start "demanding" we assertions of fact that we never did.

but is just one more bit to show how kul'tirans situation are no way the same as the high elves, with or without drust ancestry.

It is, actually. Just like Cenarius chose to teach the night elves, why couldn't the Thornspeakers decide to teach the kul tiran humans?

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No, they are not the same words.

Yes. They are the exact same words. The fact that I didn't copy the entire paragraph is meaningless because the omitted words serve no purpose to what was being discussed. You contested my statement that the Tushui and Huojin pandaren living in peace in the Wandering Isle, as your "used to live" little quip implies.

Not me.

Yes. You. Because twice you attacked my grammar mistakes.

It does have issued, as I pointed you.

It doesn't. This is nothing more than you arguing semantics when both words convey the exact same meaning in the context of what is being discussed.

I already pointed you how you did,

And I pointed out already how you're wrong, that I did not lie.

But we already discussed the about how "the game calls them". In this aspect, it doesn't matter if they renamed the race or not. The game "calls them" Huojin Pandaren, Tushui Pandaren, Blood Elves and High Elves, and that's just an ingame fact.

The lore calls them "pandaren, pandaren, blood elves and high elves." When you, as a pandaren player, speak to an NPC that refers to you as your race in their quest text, they call you "pandaren", regardless if you're Horde or Alliance. But if you are a blood elf, they call you blood elf. They don't call you "elf".

I was talking about implicatures, not implications.

Either way, you're still wrong. Because you're inferring meanings to statements of mine that has nothing to do with said meanings. Evidence of that is how you "brought as evidence" how I call the 'mag'har orcs' when I never mentioned them even once in our conversation, or in any recent conversation in the thread, too.

I didn't put words in your mouth,

You did, as mentioned above.

Yes, I know perfectly what polite means.

Then you don't know the meaning of "know perfectly". Again, a polite person does not outright accuse someone of lying because of a possible misunderstanding. A polite person does not accuse others of being "little children". A polite person person does not accuse others of being "cowards". And yet you did all that.

[Vaedan]

It is, actually. Just like Cenarius chose to teach the night elves, why couldn't the Thornspeakers decide to teach the kul tiran humans?

Well, Ulfar clearly says that they tought them.

We Thornspeakers joined Kul Tiran society. Some of their descendants heard the call of the wilds and wished to learn the ancient ways, and so we have taught them.



It is obvious that kul tiran druids are result of cultural influence, it is not biological trait. I assume if gilneans would approach thornspeakers and train with them, they would be able to master their kind of druidism, just as they did with cenarion druidism.

Thank you for the post. You sum up all thoughts in that nicely.

[Doffen]

You're between Darththeo and Varodoc, specifically the orange slice


Also, I love how it shows that even the most prominent poster against High Elves being included only 'cared' half as much about em lol

Brings my earlier point home where I said that the people who are against it wouldn't really care if it got added, and here we see that poster has since then retired from posting here.

Because we're finally getting High Elves and no one's life nor the game's identity is turning itself upside down over a few extra character customization decisions.

Not listed on the names on the list! :P

Yeah,I am number 12-15 or something I noticed. Half of the post is the same discussion over 3-4 periods. L o l

And yeah, agree as always on that.

[Syegfryed]

that's not even a fallacy.

thats literally what a fallacy means

Evidence proves otherwise

evidences don't proves otherwise, since we don't have another neutral race like pandarens to prove otherwise

Velves are an example. Although they are not available in 1 playable option for both factions like pandaren, they end up being the same;

if they do not work like pandaren they did not end up being the same, simple as that

Believe me, i'm not the first to see through you. I don't deserve that credit.

thanks for your work here expositor

So does the fact that the example of another race coincides have to be wrong?

the thing they are both different, so the same example does not fit

[Syegfryed]

Probably because the original thornspeakers are likely dead, since Ulfar is the sole living drust Thornspeaker and they left no descendants.

except by his quotes it leave heavily implied they did live descendants, and those are the ones he speak about to teach

The idea that the drust have interbred with the Kul Tirans does not match what we see in the game,

Except indeed matches, because of their appearance

because otherwise we would still see drust living in Boralus

except only a few drust joined the kul'tirans and it was 2700 years ago, their bloodline was diluted within the kul'tiran

Considering that, to my knowledge, you're the only one defending that particular interpretation, the most likely scenario, is that you are the one misinterpreting Ulfar's quotes. "You all are wrong, I am right" is not exactly a compelling argument to make.

You and the others are defending that particular interpretation to support the high elf thing, the kul'tiran subject was brought up exactly in a tentative to support that

Again: it's basic grammar. Ulfar is speaking of the thornspeakers as "we". He is including himself in it. Therefore, when speaking of the descendants of the thornspeakers, he would say "our descendants", but he doesn't. He says "their descendants".

And again, since he did not left any, no reason to include "ours"

They look nothing alike. Forearms are too thick, legs are shorter, chin is too thick, body is curved back instead of forward, etc.

are you joking? they definitely look alike

We also see many, many thornspeakers who never leave their "animal" forms. How do you know, as absolute fact, that none of them are normal or even thin Kul Tirans?

until proved otherwise we stick with evidence right?

I'm not pissed. I'm just pointing out how you're using your assumptions as hard facts, and use those assumptions to base your entire argumentation line. And when someone points out how they're nothing but assumptions, you start "demanding" we assertions of fact that we never did.

you already did point out some dozen posts ago, again, your eagerness in continue to do that, thinking i will change my stance is cute

It is, actually. Just like Cenarius chose to teach the night elves, why couldn't the Thornspeakers decide to teach the kul tiran humans?

this quote have nothing to do with what i said, and why there is none normal human kul'tiran druid? just the ones who look like drust? too much "coincidences"

[Ignaz]

thats literally what a fallacy means

so, is the correct use of science a fallacy?

evidences don't proves otherwise, since we don't have another neutral race like pandarens to prove otherwise

Pandaren are not even a neutral playable race. According to Lore, only the Pandaren that the player uses is the one that decides to take a side in addition to the leader that represents him in the faction. If they were natural they weren't a playable option.
the only difference between a Belf and a Velf is that one is void-infused and the other is not. They are all still thalassian elves

thanks for your work here expositor

You're welcome -wink-

the thing they are both different, so the same example does not fit

That in your imaginary world (I'm not talking about wow)

At least try to prove it with facts, not with assumptions and misused gramar.

[Ielenia]

except by his quotes it leave heavily implied they did live descendants, and those are the ones he speak about to teach

No, it does not imply that, and I've explained why, several times already: if Ulfar was talking about the Thornspeaker drust descendants, he would say "our descendants", but he did not say that. He used the word "they", and since he referred to the Thornspeakers as "we" in that very same line of text, it means that "their descendants" means it's the Kul Tiran descendants, not the drust.

And, once again: if the drust actually really bred with the humans, we would still see drust alive today, in Boralus. But we don't. So we have two options, as far as I can see:
• The drust bred exclusively with the humans and never with each other;
• The drust did not beed with the humans.
Option #1 is highly unlikely, which means that option #2 is the most likely correct answer.

Except indeed matches, because of their appearance

It has nothing to do with appearances, as I explained already. It's about the complete absence of living dust within Kul Tiran society. If they bred with the humans, we should have living drust today, because it's unrealistic to assume they'd breed only with humans.

except only a few drust joined the kul'tirans and it was 2700 years ago, their bloodline was diluted within the kul'tiran

"A few"? Where did this came from? There is no mention, vague or otherwise, of the number of Thornspeaker drusts that existed back then, or how many joined the Kul Tiran society. And by the way: how much, or how few, is "a few"?

You and the others are defending that particular interpretation to support the high elf thing,

No. We're "defending" it because that's the correct interpretation according to writing logic.

And again, since he did not left any, no reason to include "ours"

Wrong. In that exact same line, he was speaking of the Thornspeakers as "we", so, logic dictates that if those descendants we was talking about were descendants of the Thornspeakers, he would use the word "our" instead of "their".

are you joking? they definitely look alike

No, they don't, and I pointed out the several differences between them.

until proved otherwise we stick with evidence right?

Here's the thing, though: there is none conclusive. You're assuming that they're all "fat kul tiran" without any conclusive evidence. That'd be like me saying that Jaina is actually trans... because we have no evidence that she is not trans. Or that Anduin is adopted because we don't have conclusive evidence that he is not adopted.

you already did point out some dozen posts ago, again, your eagerness in continue to do that, thinking i will change my stance is cute

Are you admitting you're arguing in bad faith? That you're not here to discuss, you just want to argue for arguing's sake? What's the point of discussing if you are not willing to change your mind, regardless of the evidence presented?

this quote have nothing to do with what i said, and why there is none normal human kul'tiran druid?(1) just the ones who look like drust?(2) too much "coincidences"

1) How do you know there is none? We have many, many thornspeakers in "animal" form. How do you know-- for sure-- that none of them are non-fat Kul Tirans?
2) None of them look like drust. None of them look like vrykul.

[Alixie]

Wow this argument about Kul Tirans being Drust is still going on?
I hate to break it to you. But all humans are part Vrykrul.

[Graden]

hh

This is glorious.

[Edward Wu]

We're deep into the wilderness of semantics.

[Leinadh]

It is incredible to see people discussing that playable Kul Tirans are half Drust when we already had a dev confirm us they are plain normal humans with a different model just for the sake of making them look different from playable Stormwind Humans. Wanting to discuss this is beyond me.

[Edward Wu]

It is incredible to see people discussing that playable Kul Tirans are half Drust when we already had a dev confirm us they are plain normal humans with a different model just for the sake of making them look different from playable Stormwind Humans. Wanting to discuss this is beyond me.

Probably the same people who've been denying that Void Elves aren't High Elves for 2 years now.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

No, it does not imply that, and I've explained why, several times already: if Ulfar was talking about the Thornspeaker drust descendants, he would say "our descendants", but he did not say that. He used the word "they", and since he referred to the Thornspeakers as "we" in that very same line of text, it means that "their descendants" means it's the Kul Tiran descendants, not the drust.

Gdarn you are going to make me have to agree with Syeg, you know that?

-"We Thornspeakers joined Kul Tiran society" Means Thornspeakers as a whole joined, Ulfar, individually, didn't. The "joined KT society" really implies a lot here, specially since Ulfar literally remained -individually- isolated.
-"Some of their descendants heard the call of the wilds and wished to learn the ancient ways" It's making reference to the Thornspeakers that joined KT society.

I agree that so far this is all just strong implication, but the fact that Only Kul Tiran NPC Models are Thornspeakers/Druids, is evidently making the implication ridiculously obvious.

[Ielenia]

-"We Thornspeakers joined Kul Tiran society" Means Thornspeakers as a whole joined, Ulfar, individually, didn't. The "joined KT society" really implies a lot here, specially since Ulfar literally remained -individually- isolated.

So how do we know that Ulfar, specifically, individually, did not join the Kul Tiran society? I'm asking because, as far as I can tell, the only reason to say that he did not is solely to support this "'their' descendants = drust descendants" claim.

I've read and re-read his WoWpedia page, along with his quotes. Nothing in there even hints at him, specifically, never having joined the Kul Tiran society. So that means we basically have an assumption without evidence being used to support a claim.

We also have Gorak Tul angry at Ulfar for teaching the secerts of the Thornspeakers to the Kul'Tirans, with Gorak Tul calling the Kul Tiran "wretches". However, I'll freely admit that this is not conclusive evidence of anything, since his words could go either way, meaning that Gorak Tul disapproves of teaching the Thornspeaker secrets to non-drust, or that he simply considers the drust descendants "abominations" if the Kul Tirans are indeed a mix of drust/human blood.

However, I'll repeat what I said more than once to Syeg already:

And, once again: if the drust actually really bred with the humans, we would still see drust alive today, in Boralus. But we don't. So we have two options, as far as I can see:
• The drust bred exclusively with the humans and never with each other;
• The drust did not beed with the humans.
Option #1 is highly unlikely, which means that option #2 is the most likely correct answer.

[FlubberPuddy]

Afrasiabi at BlizzCon 2018 (so after BFA release, after those lines were written) said about Kul Tirans “btw they are human” so I’m not sure why the discussion on that is still going on.

I’m too lazy to find the video now but I can find it later. Might’ve been the same one where he was asked about High Elf customization coming to Void Elves.

Regardless though, this line of conversation about whether Kul Tirans are or aren’t human is akin to the Night Elf discussion that was happening earlier.

That is, move it to another thread or PMs if y’all wanna discuss that.

It’s getting tiresome to see it in the High Elf Discussion thread.

[Swnem]

I have no stick in this disvussion but i want to say that the Kul'tiran and Vrykul models do indeed look alike. Not identical, but similar.

It would be cool to see some vrykul like customisation options for the Kul'tirans.

[Syegfryed]

Gdarn you are going to make me have to agree with Syeg, you know that?

-"We Thornspeakers joined Kul Tiran society" Means Thornspeakers as a whole joined, Ulfar, individually, didn't. The "joined KT society" really implies a lot here, specially since Ulfar literally remained -individually- isolated.
-"Some of their descendants heard the call of the wilds and wished to learn the ancient ways" It's making reference to the Thornspeakers that joined KT society.

I agree that so far this is all just strong implication, but the fact that Only Kul Tiran NPC Models are Thornspeakers/Druids, is evidently making the implication ridiculously obvious.

don't try with him, i already give up, it makes totally sense that the descendants of the old drust, would wish to learn the ancient ways of their ancestors, something alien to the normal kul'tirans, since their ancestors had nothing to do with the drust.

which is very ironic how people were saying i was the one who keep pushing just to get the final word in the discussion

It is incredible to see people discussing that playable Kul Tirans are half Drust when we already had a dev confirm us they are plain normal humans with a different model just for the sake of making them look different from playable Stormwind Humans. Wanting to discuss this is beyond me.

they didn't say they were "plain normal humans", but a variant/breed of the human race.

having a bit of drust blood diluted in the group of humans, from 2700 years ago, would not make then "half-drust", would still make then humans but with some drust blood, meaning some characteristics would come up, vrykuls are technically big humans anyway.

its what happens with the moknathal too, the less ogre blood the more the individual is just an orc