Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[Yavi Dawnsong]

See, I don't agree with this either.

Well, again as was my point, this is all well and good for RP, but does not translate to being lore accurate.
You used the dwarves and trolls as an example, but lore wise they are also restricted to being bronzebeard and darkspear.
The fact that you can visually change your character to represent another race/faction does not actually make them it, Blizzard themselves said that the purpose of adding these new visual options was to facilitate the playerbase to RP as what they visually represent.

I don't think its required to add High Elves as another full fledged allied race, I would like it, but its not required.
I was just saying that the High Elves people want to play are not available from a strictly lore based standpoint, and no matter how many skin tones and hair colours they recieve that will not change.

[Kyriani]

I was just saying that the High Elves people want to play are not available from a strictly lore based standpoint, and no matter how many skin tones and hair colours they recieve that will not change.

But don't the High Elf Wayfarers count for anything as far as a "lore based standpoint" is concerned regarding the availability of High Elves? Sure, more definitive in game text telling us specifics would be welcome, but the implications of the High Elf Wayfarers has to count for something no?

[Yavi Dawnsong]

But don't the High Elf Wayfarers count for anything as far as a "lore based standpoint" is concerned regarding the availability of High Elves? Sure, more definitive in game text telling us specifics would be welcome, but the implications of the High Elf Wayfarers has to count for something no?

Nothing concrete, the most it proves is that some High Elves are learning how to control the void, that's all.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

Well, again as was my point, this is all well and good for RP, but does not translate to being lore accurate.
You used the dwarves and trolls as an example, but lore wise they are also restricted to being bronzebeard and darkspear.
The fact that you can visually change your character to represent another race/faction does not actually make them it, Blizzard themselves said that the purpose of adding these new visual options was to facilitate the playerbase to RP as what they visually represent.

I don't think its required to add High Elves as another full fledged allied race, I would like it, but its not required.
I was just saying that the High Elves people want to play are not available from a strictly lore based standpoint, and no matter how many skin tones and hair colours they recieve that will not change.

I think the point is that new Void Elves would come from the High Elves people want; thusly, be the HE's people want, just using void.

Like if a High Elf starts using Void and call themselves a Void Elf, then they are still of the high Elves we want -which was a big issue with VE's as introduced being made out of BE's-

It's the Alleria argument; she's pretty much the archetype of High Elf most people appreciate, and now she is a Void Elf.

[Ielenia]

I don't agree with this line of thinking.

The group of elves with Umbric were Blood Elves and became the first Void Elves (after Alleria of course). But we have in-game indication that new Void Elves may not necessarily be Blood Elves thanks to the High Elf Wayfarer NPC's in Telogrus. It stands to reason that if those High Elf Wayfarers are joining the Void Elves, that some Void Elves are in fact, Alliance High Elves that have decided to join the Ren'dorei along with those defecting Silvermoon Scholar Blood Elf NPC's.

What little lore we have regarding Void Elves only tells us how Umbric's group was transformed. There is no lore yet stating how new elves joining the Ren'dorei are acquiring their powers. I'd say it's rather unlikely that they are recreating Durzaan's ritual and interrupting it in the hopes of doing it just right to avoid transforming new recruits into insane void-ethereals. It seems far more logical (and much safer) that new members of the Ren'dorei would be learning to harness the void in a similar manner to Alleria with hers and Locus Walker's guidance. That's a far more reasonable and simple explanation for the new skins. And that would mean that new void elves aren't being transformed in the same manner as Umbric and his people were, but rather learning their art like any other magic (and possibly absorbing void beings summoned in Teleogrus) just as Alleria did.

Hopefully the devs won't just plop the options in on patch day and call it good without also adding at least a little lore dialogue to NPC's in Telogrus that expands upon what we know and fills in some of the gaps. Goodness knows that Void Elves need a great deal of expansion to their limited lore. But even without that, just the presence of the High Elf Wayfarers implies that at least some Void Elves are Alliance High Elves that have joined the Ren'dorei. I mean, if you're going to assume that Void Elves are making more of their kind, they obviously need elves willing to join and it's fair to also assume that the Silvermoon Scholars and the High Elf Wayfarers are those candidates.

This is something I've said before in this thread. The new void elves (as in, void elves created after Umbric's original group got rescued from that trap) would be the result of a much safer experiment that doesn't rely in "stopping a trap at the precise moment".

[shoc]

I think the point is that new Void Elves would come from the High Elves people want; thusly, be the HE's people want, just using void.

Like if a High Elf starts using Void and call themselves a Void Elf, then they are still of the high Elves we want -which was a big issue with VE's as introduced being made out of BE's-

It's the Alleria argument; she's pretty much the archetype of High Elf most people appreciate, and now she is a Void Elf.

I still don't get the confusion, with the changes, isn't it easy to conclude that Blood Elves and Void Elves are both equally High Elves?

[FlubberPuddy]

I think the point is that new Void Elves would come from the High Elves people want; thusly, be the HE's people want, just using void.

Like if a High Elf starts using Void and call themselves a Void Elf, then they are still of the high Elves we want -which was a big issue with VE's as introduced being made out of BE's-

It's the Alleria argument; she's pretty much the archetype of High Elf most people appreciate, and now she is a Void Elf.

Pretty much this.

I also suspect that going forward we're going to get more High Elf/Void Elf mingling sort of like how we see in Stormwind, since the new customizations are coming for that race option as a whole. Blizzard now justified giving more variance to its NPCs.

Very similar to how they're giving Blood Elf Paladins and Priests NPCs Golden Eyes when they received that customization and how Night Elves NPCs with Tyrande got their Night Warrior eyes from that.

I really do think we're going to reach a point one day where racials within a given race are customizeable as well (within reason for that race). Though I'm talking like another decade+ probably. If another revamp of the character creation customization doesn't happen before then.

Danuser already spoke on how if they had to explain every option out with a story in-game they wouldn't have the resources to do it and thus it would just never happen.

By piece-mealing out options like Wildhammers and High Elves and the different Troll tribes etc they can save all that explaining background and just include little snippets here or there going forward (like plunking in more High Elf looking NPCs around Void Elves or even just around the Alliance in general now as we've finally gotten them as an option).

And the reason why I say this ^ (the previous paragraph) will most likely happen is because they literally just did that in BFA, where they peppered in every Legion Allied Race where they realistically could in order to showcase the new options available to players.

I don't doubt that when we get back to Azeroth after Shadowlands, that we'll see a lot of intraracial diversity within each major faction!

- - - Updated - - -

I still don't get the confusion, with the changes, isn't it easy to conclude that Blood Elves and Void Elves are both equally High Elves?

I think when people start to focus on all the little details they miss the big picture.

Like Ion literally telling the crowd at Blizzcon you can now play a Wildhammer Dwarf, despite that it's going to have bronzebeard racials/start in Ironforge.

He said that because for the first time players can make themselves look like a Wildhammer Dwarf and thus play it.

Same thing is happening here with High Elves.

Players can now make themselves look like a High Elf and thus play it. Same with Blood Elves getting the option as well.

Not even Blizzard is like 'well it's just a bronzebeard with tattoos, not a real wildhammer' because that's simply missing the point which is the look conveys the meaning.

Just like multi-racial humans now existing was never equal to previously making white european stormwindians with dark skin since Classic.

[FossilFree]

Hopefully, Blizzard makes those braids an option in place of tentacles. Add in some void tattoos and a better EE animation, and we are set!

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

I still don't get the confusion, with the changes, isn't it easy to conclude that Blood Elves and Void Elves are both equally High Elves?

I think you are missing the context that makes current alliance high elves and blood elves "hit the spot" differently. It has been answered many a times, but it's good to remind in case someone has missed it.

Basically, it's a contextual difference; current alliance high elves have never been part of the horde; much like Alleria, they have been alliance and remained so. That's the context specific to alliance high elves, contrasted to BE's, that became Horde. The point is that this difference of ideological context makes them two groups with different ideologies and goals and environments, and simply not interchangeable form a lore perspective.

[shoc]

I think you are missing the context that makes current alliance high elves and blood elves "hit the spot" differently. It has been answered many a times, but it's good to remind in case someone has missed it.

Basically, it's a contextual difference; current alliance high elves have never been part of the horde; much like Alleria, they have been alliance and remained so. That's the context specific to alliance high elves, contrasted to BE's, that became Horde. The point is that this difference of ideological context makes them two groups with different ideologies and goals and environments, and simply not interchangeable form a lore perspective.

But if you're a player playing a Void Elf High Elf, or a Blood Elf High Elf, it doesn't really matter does it. Whatever ideology or goals your RP dude might have is in the hands of individual player agency, not exactly determined by MMO-C pedants.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

Pretty much this.

I also suspect that going forward we're going to get more High Elf/Void Elf mingling sort of like how we see in Stormwind, since the new customizations are coming for that race option as a whole. Blizzard now justified giving more variance to its NPCs.

Very similar to how they're giving Blood Elf Paladins and Priests NPCs Golden Eyes when they received that customization and how Night Elves NPCs with Tyrande got their Night Warrior eyes from that.

I really do think we're going to reach a point one day where racials within a given race are customizeable as well (within reason for that race). Though I'm talking like another decade+ probably. If another revamp of the character creation customization doesn't happen before then.

Danuser already spoke on how if they had to explain every option out with a story in-game they wouldn't have the resources to do it and thus it would just never happen.

By piece-mealing out options like Wildhammers and High Elves and the different Troll tribes etc they can save all that explaining background and just include little snippets here or there going forward (like plunking in more High Elf looking NPCs around Void Elves or even just around the Alliance in general now as we've finally gotten them as an option).

And the reason why I say this ^ (the previous paragraph) will most likely happen is because they literally just did that in BFA, where they peppered in every Legion Allied Race where they realistically could in order to showcase the new options available to players.

I don't doubt that when we get back to Azeroth after Shadowlands, that we'll see a lot of intraracial diversity within each major faction!

Hopefully tbh! In terms of immediacy, I do hope that some options (like new VE skin tones and sandfury skin tones) get some flavor text; not every new customization option needs urgent addressing and should be considered as already being part of the worldbuilding (like darker skin tones and wildhammer dwarves), but situations like VE and Trolls would do well with a bit more of explanation, otherwise we are left to simply Headcanon that VE's can make more and somehow Sandfury joined the Horde.

And again, it's barely more than some flavor text that we need on the short time, and moving forward of course we can get more depth through NPC's and quest text.

For me the most glaring issue is that VE sustainability has to be addressed, and it has been since their inception. And unlike Forsaken which took them 6 years to address them, they also had far more vast numbers initially, plus any potentially new freed scourge to join them; unlike Void Elves, that were already concieved like a very, VERY limited group.

- - - Updated - - -

But if you're a player playing a Void Elf High Elf, or a Blood Elf High Elf, it doesn't really matter does it. Whatever ideology or goals your RP dude might have is in the hands of individual player agency, not exactly determined by MMO-C pedants.

While there's an overlap between lore of the game and personal interpretation, they are indeed different issues at their core. One is about personal enjoyment and you can be whatever you want, but the later is quite simple about discussing the lore of the game.

The whole issue about Void Elves being made of High Elves is linked to the unanswered question of whether Void Elves can recruit new members. That's a lore concern that exist regardless of personal headcanon.

Like many of my void elves are simply high elves and will continue to be so -just as I started with a human model, now I simply use a VE one, and soon one that will further look like a HE- but I am still interested on what it all means in terms of VE sustainability and Thalassian Lore overall on the alliance.

So indeed, there is overlap, but they are two different issues altogether.

[shoc]

The whole issue about Void Elves being made of High Elves is linked to the unanswered question of whether Void Elves can recruit new members.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/High_Elf_Wayfarer

Question answered, they've been in game for like 2 years now.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

https://wow.gamepedia.com/High_Elf_Wayfarer

Question answered, they've been in game for like 2 years now.

I do think we need more confirmation than that, and again, as I have said, this is a lore issue about VE sustainability as well. The implication these students can actually become VE's is not confirmed, and certainly is not much to ask for it to be so.

Confirmation would be good, either through a bit of flavor text, or a small even where we see these Wayfarers and Scholars "become" Void Elves. That's really all we need for now, but, just as it is an issue about VE sustainability, it's also about where the VE's are going as a group.

Cause let's not forget they are the thinnest AR in terms of lore; beyond Umbric and Alleria's desires to make Silvermoon Alliance again, they have little in terms of motivation; contrasted to every other AR, all of them with much richer contexts. Void Elves certainly do need more lore, hence why the idea of thalassian unification on the Alliance is desirable from a lore perspective.

[shoc]

I do think we need more confirmation than that, and again, as I have said, this is a lore issue about VE sustainability as well. The implication these students can actually become VE's is not confirmed, and certainly is not much to ask for it to be so.

Confirmation would be good, either through a bit of flavor text, or a small even where we see these Wayfarers and Scholars "become" Void Elves. That's really all we need for now, but, just as it is an issue about VE sustainability, it's also about where the VE's are going as a group.

Cause let's not forget they are the thinnest AR in terms of lore; beyond Umbric and Alleria's desires to make Silvermoon Alliance again, they have little in terms of motivation; contrasted to every other AR, all of them with much richer contexts. Void Elves certainly do need more lore, hence why the idea of thalassian unification on the Alliance is desirable from a lore perspective.

They way I see it, we've got confirmation of fair-skinned, blue-eyed High Elves who can use Entropic Embrace to turn Voidy in combat, Ethereal Connection to reduce Transmog costs, and Spatial Rift to literally teleport through a void rift? Plus, they literally say 'A path long denied to us is open at last.' so it's not like they are just hanging out on an asteroid forever wondering if they can be Void Elves or not.

The problem of sustainability of a race is such a moot point in Warcraft lore that we could say the same about literally every race. Seemingly none of the races reproduce and populations replenish themselves as needed. If we're gonna be pedantic about it - this *should be* ALL of the Horde aligned Goblins in the game, right here:



Which is why being a Warcraft Lore Pedant is an exercise in utter futility.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

They way I see it, we've got confirmation of fair-skinned, blue-eyed High Elves who can use Entropic Embrace to turn Voidy in combat, Ethereal Connection to reduce Transmog costs, and Spatial Rift to literally teleport through a void rift? Plus, they literally say 'A path long denied to us is open at last.' so it's not like they are just hanging out on an asteroid forever wondering if they can be Void Elves or not.

The problem of sustainability of a race is such a moot point in Warcraft lore that we could say the same about literally every race. Seemingly none of the races reproduce and populations replenish themselves as needed. If we're gonna be pedantic about it - this *should be* ALL of the Horde aligned Goblins in the game, right here:



Which is why being a Warcraft Lore Pedant is an exercise in utter futility.

I certainly don't think asking for a bit more clarification is being pedantic TBH, honestly feels weird to have to argue in favor of adding more depth to the worlbuilding even if it's through flavor text. Don't get why anyone would be against that. Really comes across as not caring about the lore, which, well good on ya, but some of us do care?

As for goblins, it is stated on the Lore that they have high reproduction rates, and they can recruit from any other cartel; even the new Goblin leader is from no cartel.

Sustainability of a race is intrinsically linked to what their path is, and of course I would like to see some goals for Void Elves -build an actual city, further study the mysteries of the void to meet other goals, etc-

[protip]

I think when people start to focus on all the little details they miss the big picture.

Like Ion literally telling the crowd at Blizzcon you can now play a Wildhammer Dwarf, despite that it's going to have bronzebeard racials/start in Ironforge.

He said that because for the first time players can make themselves look like a Wildhammer Dwarf and thus play it.

Same thing is happening here with High Elves.

Players can now make themselves look like a High Elf and thus play it. Same with Blood Elves getting the option as well.

Not even Blizzard is like 'well it's just a bronzebeard with tattoos, not a real wildhammer' because that's simply missing the point which is the look conveys the meaning.

Just like multi-racial humans now existing was never equal to previously making white european stormwindians with dark skin since Classic.

Seriously.

[Kyriani]

I'm less concerned about the "whether they can recruit more" question since the answer seems to be yes to me, but rather my concerns lay with the "how". We have no lore at all detailing the process that new recruits undergo to join the Ren'dorei. I don't believe for a moment that Umbric would support or allow anyone, even if willing, to go through the process he and his followers were forced to endure. A process that was never intended to result in Void Elves and only did so because it was interrupted before completion. I also don't believe that anyone Alleria, Locus Walker, or Umbric would be willing to teach, would subject themselves to such a risky process either.

So, in my mind, "slow and steady" training, like what Alleria went through with Locus Walker, seems like a more realistic and believable method for new elves to join the Ren'dorei. A Dark Naaru also isn't necessarily required. Alleria did possess certain void magic before she encountered Nhal'athoth and L'ura, and such powerful beings may not be necessary for new recruits to absorb, as she did, in order to gain their powers.

What I'd like to see is in-game information that tells us something, anything, about the process by which these new recruits are gaining their powers. That alone could explain the new skin options and it would also confirm that the High Elf Wayfarers and Silvermoon Scholars really are joining the Ren'dorei.

[DeicideUH]

I'm less concerned about the "whether they can recruit more" question since the answer seems to be yes to me, but rather my concerns lay with the "how". We have no lore at all detailing the process that new recruits undergo to join the Ren'dorei. I don't believe for a moment that Umbric would support or allow anyone, even if willing, to go through process he and his followers were forced to endure. A process that was never intended to result in Void Elves and only did so because it was interrupted before completion. I also don't believe that anyone Alleria, Locus Walker, or Umbric would be willing to teach, would subject themselves to such a risky process either.

So, in my mind, "slow and steady" training, like what Alleria went through with Locus Walker, seems like a more realistic and believable method for new elves to join the Ren'dorei. A Dark Naaru also isn't necessarily required. Alleria did possess certain void magic before she encounter Nhal'athoth and L'ura, and such powerful beings may not be necessary for new recruits to absorb, as she did, in order to gain their powers.

What I'd like to see is some in-game information that tells us something, anything, about the process by which these new recruits are gaining their powers. That alone could explain the new skin options and it would also confirm that the High Elf Wayfarers and Silvermoon Scholars really are joining the Ren'dorei.

This.

The way I see it, Alleria first learned how to wield the void, then stored power within her body by consuming powerful void beings. She's like a "Voidwell" herself. Umbric and the others, however, had far less knowledge on how to use the void safely, and were first empowered by the ritual ("the powers you have are considerable"), so they had to master the void after or be consumed by it. The new recruits are going through Alleria's proccess of learning first, but instead of having to feed on void beings, they use the abundant energy of Telogrus to power themselves. Maybe the blue skin comes with absorbing too much energy without knowledge, and some reckless new recruits could transform by trying to have more than they can control.

But that's my interpretation. We need a canon explanation.

[Kyriani]

This.

The way I see it, Alleria first learned how to wield the void, then stored power within her body by consuming powerful void beings. She's like a "Voidwell" herself. Umbric and the others, however, had far less knowledge on how to use the void safely, and were first empowered by the ritual ("the powers you have are considerable"), so they had to master the void after or be consumed by it. The new recruits are going through Alleria's proccess of learning first, but instead of having to feed on void beings, they use the abundant energy of Telogrus to power themselves. Maybe the blue skin comes with absorbing too much energy without knowledge, and some reckless new recruits could transform by trying to have more than they can control.

But that's my interpretation. We need a canon explanation.

My thinking is along this line as well, I would just like some sort of canon information added to the game confirming such.

[DeicideUH]

My thinking is along this line as well, I would just like some sort of canon information added to the game confirming such.

It's absurd that a playable "race" has been around for over two years and we know next to nothing about it.