1. #19801
    Quote Originally Posted by shoc View Post
    I still don't get the confusion, with the changes, isn't it easy to conclude that Blood Elves and Void Elves are both equally High Elves?
    I think you are missing the context that makes current alliance high elves and blood elves "hit the spot" differently. It has been answered many a times, but it's good to remind in case someone has missed it.

    Basically, it's a contextual difference; current alliance high elves have never been part of the horde; much like Alleria, they have been alliance and remained so. That's the context specific to alliance high elves, contrasted to BE's, that became Horde. The point is that this difference of ideological context makes them two groups with different ideologies and goals and environments, and simply not interchangeable form a lore perspective.

  2. #19802
    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    I think you are missing the context that makes current alliance high elves and blood elves "hit the spot" differently. It has been answered many a times, but it's good to remind in case someone has missed it.

    Basically, it's a contextual difference; current alliance high elves have never been part of the horde; much like Alleria, they have been alliance and remained so. That's the context specific to alliance high elves, contrasted to BE's, that became Horde. The point is that this difference of ideological context makes them two groups with different ideologies and goals and environments, and simply not interchangeable form a lore perspective.
    But if you're a player playing a Void Elf High Elf, or a Blood Elf High Elf, it doesn't really matter does it. Whatever ideology or goals your RP dude might have is in the hands of individual player agency, not exactly determined by MMO-C pedants.

  3. #19803
    Quote Originally Posted by Geisl View Post
    Pretty much this.

    I also suspect that going forward we're going to get more High Elf/Void Elf mingling sort of like how we see in Stormwind, since the new customizations are coming for that race option as a whole. Blizzard now justified giving more variance to its NPCs.

    Very similar to how they're giving Blood Elf Paladins and Priests NPCs Golden Eyes when they received that customization and how Night Elves NPCs with Tyrande got their Night Warrior eyes from that.

    I really do think we're going to reach a point one day where racials within a given race are customizeable as well (within reason for that race). Though I'm talking like another decade+ probably. If another revamp of the character creation customization doesn't happen before then.

    Danuser already spoke on how if they had to explain every option out with a story in-game they wouldn't have the resources to do it and thus it would just never happen.

    By piece-mealing out options like Wildhammers and High Elves and the different Troll tribes etc they can save all that explaining background and just include little snippets here or there going forward (like plunking in more High Elf looking NPCs around Void Elves or even just around the Alliance in general now as we've finally gotten them as an option).

    And the reason why I say this ^ (the previous paragraph) will most likely happen is because they literally just did that in BFA, where they peppered in every Legion Allied Race where they realistically could in order to showcase the new options available to players.

    I don't doubt that when we get back to Azeroth after Shadowlands, that we'll see a lot of intraracial diversity within each major faction!
    Hopefully tbh! In terms of immediacy, I do hope that some options (like new VE skin tones and sandfury skin tones) get some flavor text; not every new customization option needs urgent addressing and should be considered as already being part of the worldbuilding (like darker skin tones and wildhammer dwarves), but situations like VE and Trolls would do well with a bit more of explanation, otherwise we are left to simply Headcanon that VE's can make more and somehow Sandfury joined the Horde.

    And again, it's barely more than some flavor text that we need on the short time, and moving forward of course we can get more depth through NPC's and quest text.

    For me the most glaring issue is that VE sustainability has to be addressed, and it has been since their inception. And unlike Forsaken which took them 6 years to address them, they also had far more vast numbers initially, plus any potentially new freed scourge to join them; unlike Void Elves, that were already concieved like a very, VERY limited group.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by shoc View Post
    But if you're a player playing a Void Elf High Elf, or a Blood Elf High Elf, it doesn't really matter does it. Whatever ideology or goals your RP dude might have is in the hands of individual player agency, not exactly determined by MMO-C pedants.
    While there's an overlap between lore of the game and personal interpretation, they are indeed different issues at their core. One is about personal enjoyment and you can be whatever you want, but the later is quite simple about discussing the lore of the game.

    The whole issue about Void Elves being made of High Elves is linked to the unanswered question of whether Void Elves can recruit new members. That's a lore concern that exist regardless of personal headcanon.

    Like many of my void elves are simply high elves and will continue to be so -just as I started with a human model, now I simply use a VE one, and soon one that will further look like a HE- but I am still interested on what it all means in terms of VE sustainability and Thalassian Lore overall on the alliance.

    So indeed, there is overlap, but they are two different issues altogether.

  4. #19804
    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post

    The whole issue about Void Elves being made of High Elves is linked to the unanswered question of whether Void Elves can recruit new members.
    https://wow.gamepedia.com/High_Elf_Wayfarer

    Question answered, they've been in game for like 2 years now.

  5. #19805
    Quote Originally Posted by shoc View Post
    https://wow.gamepedia.com/High_Elf_Wayfarer

    Question answered, they've been in game for like 2 years now.
    I do think we need more confirmation than that, and again, as I have said, this is a lore issue about VE sustainability as well. The implication these students can actually become VE's is not confirmed, and certainly is not much to ask for it to be so.

    Confirmation would be good, either through a bit of flavor text, or a small even where we see these Wayfarers and Scholars "become" Void Elves. That's really all we need for now, but, just as it is an issue about VE sustainability, it's also about where the VE's are going as a group.

    Cause let's not forget they are the thinnest AR in terms of lore; beyond Umbric and Alleria's desires to make Silvermoon Alliance again, they have little in terms of motivation; contrasted to every other AR, all of them with much richer contexts. Void Elves certainly do need more lore, hence why the idea of thalassian unification on the Alliance is desirable from a lore perspective.

  6. #19806
    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    I do think we need more confirmation than that, and again, as I have said, this is a lore issue about VE sustainability as well. The implication these students can actually become VE's is not confirmed, and certainly is not much to ask for it to be so.

    Confirmation would be good, either through a bit of flavor text, or a small even where we see these Wayfarers and Scholars "become" Void Elves. That's really all we need for now, but, just as it is an issue about VE sustainability, it's also about where the VE's are going as a group.

    Cause let's not forget they are the thinnest AR in terms of lore; beyond Umbric and Alleria's desires to make Silvermoon Alliance again, they have little in terms of motivation; contrasted to every other AR, all of them with much richer contexts. Void Elves certainly do need more lore, hence why the idea of thalassian unification on the Alliance is desirable from a lore perspective.
    They way I see it, we've got confirmation of fair-skinned, blue-eyed High Elves who can use Entropic Embrace to turn Voidy in combat, Ethereal Connection to reduce Transmog costs, and Spatial Rift to literally teleport through a void rift? Plus, they literally say 'A path long denied to us is open at last.' so it's not like they are just hanging out on an asteroid forever wondering if they can be Void Elves or not.

    The problem of sustainability of a race is such a moot point in Warcraft lore that we could say the same about literally every race. Seemingly none of the races reproduce and populations replenish themselves as needed. If we're gonna be pedantic about it - this *should be* ALL of the Horde aligned Goblins in the game, right here:



    Which is why being a Warcraft Lore Pedant is an exercise in utter futility.

  7. #19807
    Quote Originally Posted by shoc View Post
    They way I see it, we've got confirmation of fair-skinned, blue-eyed High Elves who can use Entropic Embrace to turn Voidy in combat, Ethereal Connection to reduce Transmog costs, and Spatial Rift to literally teleport through a void rift? Plus, they literally say 'A path long denied to us is open at last.' so it's not like they are just hanging out on an asteroid forever wondering if they can be Void Elves or not.

    The problem of sustainability of a race is such a moot point in Warcraft lore that we could say the same about literally every race. Seemingly none of the races reproduce and populations replenish themselves as needed. If we're gonna be pedantic about it - this *should be* ALL of the Horde aligned Goblins in the game, right here:



    Which is why being a Warcraft Lore Pedant is an exercise in utter futility.
    I certainly don't think asking for a bit more clarification is being pedantic TBH, honestly feels weird to have to argue in favor of adding more depth to the worlbuilding even if it's through flavor text. Don't get why anyone would be against that. Really comes across as not caring about the lore, which, well good on ya, but some of us do care?

    As for goblins, it is stated on the Lore that they have high reproduction rates, and they can recruit from any other cartel; even the new Goblin leader is from no cartel.

    Sustainability of a race is intrinsically linked to what their path is, and of course I would like to see some goals for Void Elves -build an actual city, further study the mysteries of the void to meet other goals, etc-

  8. #19808
    Quote Originally Posted by Geisl View Post
    I think when people start to focus on all the little details they miss the big picture.

    Like Ion literally telling the crowd at Blizzcon you can now play a Wildhammer Dwarf, despite that it's going to have bronzebeard racials/start in Ironforge.

    He said that because for the first time players can make themselves look like a Wildhammer Dwarf and thus play it.

    Same thing is happening here with High Elves.

    Players can now make themselves look like a High Elf and thus play it. Same with Blood Elves getting the option as well.

    Not even Blizzard is like 'well it's just a bronzebeard with tattoos, not a real wildhammer' because that's simply missing the point which is the look conveys the meaning.

    Just like multi-racial humans now existing was never equal to previously making white european stormwindians with dark skin since Classic.
    Seriously.

  9. #19809
    I'm less concerned about the "whether they can recruit more" question since the answer seems to be yes to me, but rather my concerns lay with the "how". We have no lore at all detailing the process that new recruits undergo to join the Ren'dorei. I don't believe for a moment that Umbric would support or allow anyone, even if willing, to go through the process he and his followers were forced to endure. A process that was never intended to result in Void Elves and only did so because it was interrupted before completion. I also don't believe that anyone Alleria, Locus Walker, or Umbric would be willing to teach, would subject themselves to such a risky process either.

    So, in my mind, "slow and steady" training, like what Alleria went through with Locus Walker, seems like a more realistic and believable method for new elves to join the Ren'dorei. A Dark Naaru also isn't necessarily required. Alleria did possess certain void magic before she encountered Nhal'athoth and L'ura, and such powerful beings may not be necessary for new recruits to absorb, as she did, in order to gain their powers.

    What I'd like to see is in-game information that tells us something, anything, about the process by which these new recruits are gaining their powers. That alone could explain the new skin options and it would also confirm that the High Elf Wayfarers and Silvermoon Scholars really are joining the Ren'dorei.
    Last edited by Kyriani; 2020-06-28 at 12:58 PM.

  10. #19810
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriani View Post
    I'm less concerned about the "whether they can recruit more" question since the answer seems to be yes to me, but rather my concerns lay with the "how". We have no lore at all detailing the process that new recruits undergo to join the Ren'dorei. I don't believe for a moment that Umbric would support or allow anyone, even if willing, to go through process he and his followers were forced to endure. A process that was never intended to result in Void Elves and only did so because it was interrupted before completion. I also don't believe that anyone Alleria, Locus Walker, or Umbric would be willing to teach, would subject themselves to such a risky process either.

    So, in my mind, "slow and steady" training, like what Alleria went through with Locus Walker, seems like a more realistic and believable method for new elves to join the Ren'dorei. A Dark Naaru also isn't necessarily required. Alleria did possess certain void magic before she encounter Nhal'athoth and L'ura, and such powerful beings may not be necessary for new recruits to absorb, as she did, in order to gain their powers.

    What I'd like to see is some in-game information that tells us something, anything, about the process by which these new recruits are gaining their powers. That alone could explain the new skin options and it would also confirm that the High Elf Wayfarers and Silvermoon Scholars really are joining the Ren'dorei.
    This.

    The way I see it, Alleria first learned how to wield the void, then stored power within her body by consuming powerful void beings. She's like a "Voidwell" herself. Umbric and the others, however, had far less knowledge on how to use the void safely, and were first empowered by the ritual ("the powers you have are considerable"), so they had to master the void after or be consumed by it. The new recruits are going through Alleria's proccess of learning first, but instead of having to feed on void beings, they use the abundant energy of Telogrus to power themselves. Maybe the blue skin comes with absorbing too much energy without knowledge, and some reckless new recruits could transform by trying to have more than they can control.

    But that's my interpretation. We need a canon explanation.
    Whatever...

  11. #19811
    Quote Originally Posted by DeicideUH View Post
    This.

    The way I see it, Alleria first learned how to wield the void, then stored power within her body by consuming powerful void beings. She's like a "Voidwell" herself. Umbric and the others, however, had far less knowledge on how to use the void safely, and were first empowered by the ritual ("the powers you have are considerable"), so they had to master the void after or be consumed by it. The new recruits are going through Alleria's proccess of learning first, but instead of having to feed on void beings, they use the abundant energy of Telogrus to power themselves. Maybe the blue skin comes with absorbing too much energy without knowledge, and some reckless new recruits could transform by trying to have more than they can control.

    But that's my interpretation. We need a canon explanation.
    My thinking is along this line as well, I would just like some sort of canon information added to the game confirming such.

  12. #19812
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriani View Post
    My thinking is along this line as well, I would just like some sort of canon information added to the game confirming such.
    It's absurd that a playable "race" has been around for over two years and we know next to nothing about it.
    Whatever...

  13. #19813
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriani View Post
    I'm less concerned about the "whether they can recruit more" question since the answer seems to be yes to me, but rather my concerns lay with the "how". We have no lore at all detailing the process that new recruits undergo to join the Ren'dorei. I don't believe for a moment that Umbric would support or allow anyone, even if willing, to go through the process he and his followers were forced to endure. A process that was never intended to result in Void Elves and only did so because it was interrupted before completion. I also don't believe that anyone Alleria, Locus Walker, or Umbric would be willing to teach, would subject themselves to such a risky process either.

    So, in my mind, "slow and steady" training, like what Alleria went through with Locus Walker, seems like a more realistic and believable method for new elves to join the Ren'dorei. A Dark Naaru also isn't necessarily required. Alleria did possess certain void magic before she encountered Nhal'athoth and L'ura, and such powerful beings may not be necessary for new recruits to absorb, as she did, in order to gain their powers.

    What I'd like to see is in-game information that tells us something, anything, about the process by which these new recruits are gaining their powers. That alone could explain the new skin options and it would also confirm that the High Elf Wayfarers and Silvermoon Scholars really are joining the Ren'dorei.
    I've always thought that the lore of the Velves has a lot of potential, however it has been too neglected by Blizzard, even making us think they were a '' in case of emergencies, break the glass '' to try to please everyone. I hope that in the pre patch they expand the lore that surrounds the Velves.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by DeicideUH View Post
    It's absurd that a playable "race" has been around for over two years and we know next to nothing about it.
    Agree. Even mechagnomes have had more narrative development
    Last edited by Ignaz; 2020-06-29 at 06:43 PM.

  14. #19814
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Brazil
    Posts
    22,244
    Quote Originally Posted by Ignaz View Post
    I've always thought that the lore of the Velves has a lot of potential, however it has been too neglected by Blizzard, even making us think they were a '' in case of emergencies, break the glass '' to try to please everyone. I hope that in the pre patch they expand the lore that surrounds the Velves.
    Exactly. Void Elves had literally zero lore for their race developed throughout the entirety of BfA: nothing about how new recruits come to be; nothing about how they deal with the whispers, other than 'we quiet them'; nothing about their new powers and how they control it... nothing.

    At best, we have Umbric who got some minor development as an elf who wants to unite Sivlermoon under the Alliance banner, but that's the same goal that Alleria has, so it feels a little stale.

    And the Sylvanas' upcoming book where Turalyon and Alleria are supposed to show up... I feel they'll be mostly sidelined, and all development that happens for Alleria will be Alleria-only, meaning it'll be her relationships with her husband and her sisters, nothing about the void.

    Heck, lightforged draenei's recruitment scenario at least depicts how they're 'created'.
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
    "You sit in OG/SW waiting on a Mythic+ queue" by Altmer <- Oh, the pearls in this forum...
    "They sort of did this Dragonriding, which ushered in the Dracthyr race." by Teriz <- the BS some people reach for their narratives...

  15. #19815
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Exactly. Void Elves had literally zero lore for their race developed throughout the entirety of BfA: nothing about how new recruits come to be; nothing about how they deal with the whispers, other than 'we quiet them'; nothing about their new powers and how they control it... nothing.

    At best, we have Umbric who got some minor development as an elf who wants to unite Sivlermoon under the Alliance banner, but that's the same goal that Alleria has, so it feels a little stale.

    And the Sylvanas' upcoming book where Turalyon and Alleria are supposed to show up... I feel they'll be mostly sidelined, and all development that happens for Alleria will be Alleria-only, meaning it'll be her relationships with her husband and her sisters, nothing about the void.

    Heck, lightforged draenei's recruitment scenario at least depicts how they're 'created'.
    You're right. For some time I thought that with the integration of two allied races strongly linked to light and void, they would be developing in parallel a narrative of balance between both poles, however; With what little they have shown about the most basic characteristics of the Velves, and now with the addition of light skin to make them more similar to their non-corrupt counterparts, I see that it goes from being a special playable race to a simple fan service.

    I hope I'm wrong and that they have a very strong lore prepared for them. I repeat, the potential they have is incredible, and even more when there are topics as interesting as the fight between the great forces.

  16. #19816
    I've long thought that they mishandled all the allied-races introduced in legion. Since it's now shown that HE fans will never settle for nothing less then HE on the alliance, they should have introduced them in legion. They could have had a story of HE migrating to the Broken Isles for a new home, and maybe dabbling in the void in search of a new power to help the alliance(that is, being given the options for both HE and Voidy customizations). Conversely, the horde would be given repentant Eredar, having settled in the Isles to hide from the legion or some other excuse. Highmountain antlers for Tauren and Lightforged options for Draenei would be customization options.

  17. #19817
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Exactly. Void Elves had literally zero lore for their race developed throughout the entirety of BfA: nothing about how new recruits come to be; nothing about how they deal with the whispers, other than 'we quiet them'; nothing about their new powers and how they control it... nothing.

    At best, we have Umbric who got some minor development as an elf who wants to unite Sivlermoon under the Alliance banner, but that's the same goal that Alleria has, so it feels a little stale.

    And the Sylvanas' upcoming book where Turalyon and Alleria are supposed to show up... I feel they'll be mostly sidelined, and all development that happens for Alleria will be Alleria-only, meaning it'll be her relationships with her husband and her sisters, nothing about the void.

    Heck, lightforged draenei's recruitment scenario at least depicts how they're 'created'.
    With the new High Elf customization options announced, wouldn't surprise me if Blizzard downplays the Void aspect of Thalassian elves on the Alliance going forward, as most assuredly, 90% of Void Elf players will just make their Void Elves look like High Elves anyway.

    "Oh, they're still Void-y and stuff... but we don't really feel there's much need to explore that in lore, they quieted the voices down. Here's some red hair."

  18. #19818
    Quote Originally Posted by Ignaz View Post
    I've always thought that the lore of the Velves has a lot of potential, however it has been too neglected by Blizzard, even making us think they were a '' in case of emergencies, break the glass '' to try to please everyone. I hope that in the pre patch they expand the lore that surrounds the Velves.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Agree. Even mechagnomes have had more narrative development
    I agree that Void Elves have a wealth of potential. The problem is that allied races weren't designed with exploring potential in mind. They were intended to be "drop and go" races that required little investment and no development beyond whatever expansion they featured in before they became playable. That's why Void Elves are in the predicament that they are in. Unlike, the Nightborne, the Highmountain, and even the Lightforged, Void Elves were never featured as a race we interacted with in Legion prior to their unlock.

    Alleria's arc was just that... Alleria's arc. The terms "Void Elf" and "Ren'dorei" don't exist until after the unlock scenario and the initial group of Void Elves (Umbric and his followers) look nothing like Alleria so I feel it's very unfair to try and equate her Argus arc as anything to do with Void Elves as a race. The Argussian Reach reputation also has nothing to do with Void Elves and made little sense as a requirement for their unlock.

    So because of their shoddy implementation compared to other allied races, Void Elves need additional development lore-wise that other allied races don't require since they were all fairly well established prior to unlock. I really hope that Blizzard realizes and acknowledges that and doesn't just add the customization options and then leave Void Elves on the sidelines with no development like they did in Battle for Azeroth. And by development I don't mean just a bunch of generic npc's sending enemies into void portals, or the latest chapter of "escort Magister Umbric here and there". I mean development as a people and a race.
    Last edited by Kyriani; 2020-06-29 at 09:31 PM.

  19. #19819
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyphael View Post
    With the new High Elf customization options announced, wouldn't surprise me if Blizzard downplays the Void aspect of Thalassian elves on the Alliance going forward, as most assuredly, 90% of Void Elf players will just make their Void Elves look like High Elves anyway.

    "Oh, they're still Void-y and stuff... but we don't really feel there's much need to explore that in lore, they quieted the voices down. Here's some red hair."
    I highly doubt that. Somebody recently released a prologue for the upcoming novel, in which the "void" aspects of Alleria are noted by other alliance characters, and so much so that either Anduin or Shaw (can't remember which) have internal doubts about Alleria's loyalties. Furthermore, she is repeatedly referred to as a void elf in the prologue.

    The "void" aspect of void elves isn't going anywhere, it's what defines them.
    Blood elves are our high elves - Chris Metzen

  20. #19820
    Quote Originally Posted by Strippling View Post
    The "void" aspect of void elves isn't going anywhere, it's what defines them.
    I hope this remains true because I like the void aspects. But I would also like to see some lore development on that end, as well as some mention of the integration of those High Elf Wayfarers and Silvermoon Scholars into the Ren'dorei. And most importantly, I'd like to see mention of how the new generation of Void Elves are gaining their abilities.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •