Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[Aldo Hawk]

oh i am quite aware as i said that i same as you can't have everything on whim. Problem that - if blizzard prove me wrong i'll accept the truth. And accept that if you push enough pressure on game development company you can have everything you want, no matter how silly it sounded(as an example: when enraged fans of pharamercy ship attacked developer for proving them wrong. there i see same behaviour). But for now - well i belive in blizzard (at least wow team) as someone who can keep their word on lore aspect. And you look like bunch of "enraged kids" (remember - i used my example, not mean that you are exactly kids) who not get toy they wanted, while can have many different toys (other races, other games). so... sorry

The only thing you proove is your ignorance on the HE matter, it's just my observation, someone who bring those kind of points is unaware of the situation.

I care more about people being aware than being against alliance HE in this thread, just rethink it a bit, you have tons of people giving examples on why you are wrong with factual proof found in-game.

[Nuggsy]

Would You like people to hide heads in the sand, when they see violence?

I would enjoy much more to have some lightheaded conversations in fan-fiction threads, sharing concepts, speculating, and exchanging thoughts on what people find appealing in different fantasy worlds, cause politics already takes much of my everyday life - way to much, for me to be willing search more of it afterhours. However when I see violence - i call it by name. If You see it as "agenda" more than personal attitude - seems irrelevant.

And If You can not see mansplaining even in situation, when bunch of guys surrounds woman and start to yell at her to subordinate, and acknowledge their superiority in an total abstract subject - any further explanations from my won't help. Even if I was willing say anything more on the subject, which I'm not.

I think it's great to stand up and help people who are in need but just because a guy is being a jerk to a girl doesn't mean he's 'mainsplaning' it just means he's being a jerk. There is no need to tie in a sexist term to describe it when it's simply just being rude, regardless of the genders involved.

[Deleted]

And I see no value in pretending that it wold be as likely to encounter exact behavior in case of a man. It wouldn't. Statistical importance of revealing gender as singular factor influencing on obtained ratings of work or statements is scientifically proven. And if there is even tinny chance, that someone here will in future take step back, and think if he is not by chance taking part in something, that looks rather bad - its worth going ahead of the row.

And as much, as I'm not willing to go full political - do not expect me to cooperate in maintaining names of specific forms of violence as taboo.

[Ithekro]

An analogy for what High Elf fans want would be in terms of customer-company relations:

A nation wide company sells a product to half the nation on one form. Advertises that form in the other half of the country with a slightly different label, but doesn't actually sell it in that part of the county. Consumers in that part of the country ask if they can have the product, and the company says no. If you want that product you need to move to the other side of the country. When asked why, they say its a regional thing only. "Even with the different labeling you advertise it under?" The company says that is basically the same thing, but you have to move to get it.

Years later people are still asking for that product to be sold in their half of the country. The new marketing campaign says they'll sell something like it soon. The people are excited by this prospect. When the product arrives, it is the same general look of the product. The labeling is blue and tastes entirely different. "This isn't want we were asking for." Its basically the same thing, but doesn't taste at all like the product sold in the other half of the country, and its also blue, yet the rest of the packaging and look of the item is the same. When asked again why they can't just have the product, they are told its region only and told to move to the other side of the country or just live with the blue product that tastes nothing like the product is suppose to taste.

Customer relations. Now, is this a company failure to understand the consumer? Is this a consumer failure to understand some vague regional reasoning for them not to be able to have said product? There isn't a law in place making it illegal or anything. Its just that the other region thinks it a staple of their region and they don't want to dilute "their" product by letting the other region have it.

That's my take of this issue.

[Friendlyimmolation]

An analogy for what High Elf fans want would be in terms of customer-company relations:

A nation wide company sells a product to half the nation on one form. Advertises that form in the other half of the country with a slightly different label, but doesn't actually sell it in that part of the county. Consumers in that part of the country ask if they can have the product, and the company says no. If you want that product you need to move to the other side of the country. When asked why, they say its a regional thing only. "Even with the different labeling you advertise it under?" The company says that is basically the same thing, but you have to move to get it.

Years later people are still asking for that product to be sold in their half of the country. The new marketing campaign says they'll sell something like it soon. The people are excited by this prospect. When the product arrives, it is the same general look of the product. The labeling is blue and tastes entirely different. "This isn't want we were asking for." Its basically the same thing, but doesn't taste at all like the product sold in the other half of the country, and its also blue, yet the rest of the packaging and look of the item is the same. When asked again why they can't just have the product, they are told its region only and told to move to the other side of the country or just live with the blue product that tastes nothing like the product is suppose to taste.

Customer relations. Now, is this a company failure to understand the consumer? Is this a consumer failure to understand some vague regional reasoning for them not to be able to have said product? There isn't a law in place making it illegal or anything. Its just that the other region thinks it a staple of their region and they don't want to dilute "their" product by letting the other region have it.

That's my take of this issue.

It still comes off as way too entitled.

You don't have to move across the country to role Horde, nor is is reasonable to ask the Game's design to bend to your whims because you don't like how they design things.

Blizzard does not owe people high elves.

[Ithekro]

Does it? Blizzard advertises High Elves in the Alliance since Vanilla. Why is it entitlement to want to play what is advertised, yet for arguably vague reasons, aren't playable within the faction they are advertised in?

[Friendlyimmolation]

Does it? Blizzard advertises High Elves in the Alliance since Vanilla. Why is it entitlement to want to play what is advertised, yet for arguably vague reasons, aren't playable within the faction they are advertised in?

They have never advertised high elves to the Alliance, Alliance may have took it as advertising, but Even in Vanilla Blizzard decided not to add High elves to the Alliance.

The reasons aren't vague unless you try to muddy them up in a vain effort to reinforce your point.

Edit: Before Pandaren are inevitably brought up again, They were designed from the start to be able to be on either side, and Blizzard still didn't like how they turned out, they want their factions to look different.

When that point inevitably goes to "but Void elves are just H/Belves painted blue, it makes them different enough for Blizzard.

And when that once again falls back into "They can change the model." At that point don't ask for High elves, because they are the exact same species as blood elf, they are the exact same thing.

With the current design of WoW High elves aren't happening. Pray for an end to factions and then you'll get them in the form of Blood elves, but it's doubtful that will happen.

And then someone brings up Pandaren again and the cycle continues.

[Ithekro]

And yet they display more High Elves in the Alliance over time. How is that not advertising? Even with the sadistic twist of adding the "but you can't play that unless you play Horde" added to the advertising of all the High Elves in the Alliance. High Elves that have been there the entire game. High Elves that are specifically not Blood Elves. Sometimes painfully to the point of it being pointed out specifically by the characters themselves.

[FlubberPuddy]

Yeah the "Blizzard not advertising High Elves on Alliance" argument is bullshit.

Why do people think Vulpera will most likely go to Horde? Because they're shown to be working alongside Horde and has a faction listed for Horde players.

Why do people think Wildhammer Dwarves would most likely go Alliance? Because they're shown to be working alongside Alliance.

Why do people believe San'layn would go Horde? Because they're shown to be working alongside Horde.

Why do people think Sethrak for Alliance? Because the Alliance NPCs apparently say they look forward to working with Sethrak later.

People are putting race groups leanings toward one faction over another with a lot less than High Elves have been shown with Alliance.

That's possibly the most dumb argument one could make in trying to deny Alliance High Elves. It very clearly and easily falls flat on its face.

And no Pandaren are required to see this.

- - - Updated - - -

When that point inevitably goes to "but Void elves are just H/Belves painted blue, it makes them different enough for Blizzard.

This is probably the most logical explanation Ion said, that eye color isn't enough of a difference (he still denotes there is a difference by saying this), but skin apparently is.

Except even that falls on its face, when we have Nightborne that come with shades of purple akin to Night Elves. Then we have Void Elves inheriting some pale blue/purple shades. The game even references this with a quest called "Not Our Purple Elves".

The game now is saturated with 3 types of blue/purple elves.

It's going to look very weird if Blood Elves stay as the only "human-esque skin toned" elves in the game. I have to wonder how long will that last essentially.

For sure there aren't going to be anymore blue/purple elves added since Blizzard is known for being a stickler about puffing their chest over "keeping things more unique/different"

[Deleted]

Blizzard does not owe people high elves.

Of course not!
It's just their job and their own interest to properly recognize their customers expectations.

And so - maintaining demands and keeping feedback clear still have sense. Cause it is still possible for them to try to answer demand of classic elves, when they find a way to prevent huge population unbalances in future. It's good reason to keep calm and wait.

And when that once again falls back into "They can change the model." At that point don't ask for High elves, because they are the exact same species as blood elf, they are the exact same thing.

I think I understand problem here -

Unlike Blood Elves, High Elves are not just a name found in Blizzards work. Its also a common name, present in many fantasy settings. It itself contains strong references to classical elf representations. And that is why Ions spells do not work - people do not recognize this references in form of Blood Elves, or Void Elves, in their theme, their character and story. They however recognize it in last remaining in game High Elves, and use this name, cause strongly prefer them, to be starting point for story leading to reintroduction classic elf. They just won't agree with You, if You will follow strict Blizzards definition.

And that's perfectly good, because some field of compromise and some flexibility is probably needed here.

Pray for an end to factions and then you'll get them in the form of Blood elves, but it's doubtful that will happen.

Void Elves unfortunately already proved, that continuation of Blood Elf story is not accepted by many High Elf fans as solution. Their introduction stimulated High Elf fans to speak as loud as ever for years, instead of silencing them. So I guess it will not work.

[Byleth]

And that is why Ions spells do not work - people do not recognize this references in form of Blood Elves, or Void Elves, in their theme, their character and story. They however recognize it in last remaining in game High Elves, and use this name, cause strongly prefer them, to be starting point for story leading to reintroduction classic elf. They just won't agree with You, if You will follow strict Blizzards definition.

Ion is not a bloody wizard... He's just the game director, so what he says goes.

That said, I too see a need for the classic 'good' high elf archetype in World of Warcraft. Perhaps, HE fans energies would be better directed into suggestions for a new, distinct, lore rich race that would meet all the criteria mentioned.

I'm willing to bet that had the Nightborne been given to the Alliance, the very loud pro-HE voices we hear today would be quiet background noise. If anything I believe that it would be possible to add something new that would scratch the itch Alliance has.

[Deleted]

Ion is not a bloody wizard... He's just the game director, so what he says goes.

Unfortunately he enters such role, when goes out in front of people and announces "We decided, that since this day, 2 + 2 = 7".

And such equation is thing also existing outside his game.

That said, I too see a need for the classic 'good' high elf archetype in World of Warcraft. Perhaps, HE fans energies would be better directed into suggestions for a new, distinct, lore rich race that would meet all the criteria mentioned.

But this whole thread was at the beginning meant to be exactly that thing - set of ideas, how to drive from existing in game High Elves "new, distinct, lore rich race" answering best criteria of classic elves.

This is already happening, and High Elf fans are trying to do it all the time - discussing for example about which existing in game ties to the rest of the Warcraft world they see as most promising. When they are not trolled, attacked and pushed hard to defend themselves of course.

[Byleth]

Unfortunately he enters such role, when goes out in front of people and announces "We decided, that since this day, 2 + 2 = 7".

The reality is, it's his job to make the call. So we all have to live with 7, at least until he decides it's 9 or 13 - or maybe even 4.

This is already happening, and High Elf fans are trying to do it all the time

And I would 100% join you on that quest - If you were willing to totally drop existing High Elves as a playable race. They are the same race as Blood Elves, end of.

I am very happy to help contribute to a the creation of a distinct, new race though

[Obelisk Kai]

And I would 100% join you on that quest - If you were willing to totally drop existing High Elves as a playable race. They are the same race as Blood Elves, end of.

I am very happy to help contribute to a the creation of a distinct, new race though

Can we just say Half Elves?

Also I disagree that the game needs a classic High Elf race. Blood Elves are the classic High Elf race, that's their thing, particularly after the healing of the Sunwell stopped the mana vampire theme.

[Byleth]

Can we just say Half Elves?

Also I disagree that the game needs a classic High Elf race. Blood Elves are the classic High Elf race, that's their thing, particularly after the healing of the Sunwell stopped the mana vampire theme.

Come on man. These guys have been working very hard in at a hopeless task for so long. Even I want to give them a bone at this point.

I can at least agree with them that there is a lack of a good classical high elf archetype in the Alliance. It should just never be the high elves as the are in game currently.

I think half elves could be a very fair compromise.

[Deleted]

I already stated here few times, that obedience is no virtue for me. I never, ever "live with" things.

And why to drop them, when they can just be developed? When they have already popularity? Catch much of the audience attention? There is even no need to advertise "High Elf" banner. During that development answering for players nostalgia can be in fact achieved as well, as need of distinction and uniqueness.

They are the closest match to classic elves niche. They just need a story pushing them further - one of proposals of stories about finding new home, or dealing with consequences of refusing to use controversial magical practices, or finding their balance in some similar way Nightborne had. They just need highlighting changes in lifestyle, appearance, behavior. Creating some new settlements - as I proposed here many times, changing architecture style to some point, as many of them would be now exiles, or refuges forced to hide themselves. This solution have strong advantages - is strongly rooted in existing story, allows to keep close parallel storytelling between them and Blood Elves, and so - keep the tension. keep players focused. Many existing ideas can be integrated in good solution - like for example more frequent crossbreeding can be secondary explanation of new appearance etc.

I'm writing mostly about groups like Elves allying themselves with Wildhammer Dwarves, rather than Silver Covenant, as I see them much more promising both in storytelling, and in addressing to request of classical elf.

Creativity is not an art of making assputs, but rather and art of reusing and rearranging existing motifs in unexpected, and surprising ways.

As far as I know Blizzards way of introducing races - requests for High Elves and Half Elves will be integrated and merged anyway. Cause it was never their preferable way, to introduce just half-breeds under open banner.

stopped the mana vampire theme.

I strongly hope, that Alleria and Umbric will force them to return to that theme

[Obelisk Kai]

Come on man. These guys have been working very hard in at a hopeless task for so long. Even I want to give them a bone at this point.

They have been working hard. But as I have said before they are attempting to reinvent the wheel, and given Ion's comments the only way they can succeed is to reinvent the wheel in such a way that the resulting wheel is NOT round. That is of course a contradiction.

I can at least agree with them that there is a lack of a good classical high elf archetype in the Alliance. It should just never be the high elves as the are in game currently.

I think half elves could be a very fair compromise.

There is a lack of a High Elf archetype in the Alliance. There is also the lack of a Zombie archetype, an Orc archetype, a Minotaur archetype, a Goblin archetype and a Troll archetype. The lack of an archetype does not mean the gap has to be filled. The ABSENCE of certain archetypes is as important to what defines a faction as what is present. Having said that, Half Elves COULD be the answer. But I am unsure if Blizzard wants to go in that direction, maybe if Arator gets a unique model at some point.

- - - Updated - - -

I strongly hope, that Alleria and Umbric will force them to return to that theme

That will not happen. The dichotomy between light based Blood Elves and Void based Void Elves dovetails too neatly with the upcoming light versus shadow conflict to be discarded so easily and before it even had a chance to be developed as a story thread.

[Friendlyimmolation]

I strongly hope, that Alleria and Umbric will force them to return to that theme

Just as people hope Lor'themar beheads both Umbric and Alleria infront of the gates of Silvermoon.


Everyone has unrealistic desires.

[Deleted]

Well, You clearly see folks, that conflict between Thalasian elven factions catches attention instantly, and so - It would not be wise from Blizzards perspective to let it into oblivion xD

There is also the lack of a Zombie archetype

This one is going to be solved soon

an Orc archetype, a Minotaur archetype, a Goblin archetype and a Troll archetype.

Thing is - part of classic elf archetype, as I (and many other people) understand it, is to stay allied with Humans and Dwarves. And as much as I love Blood Elves - I rather could not say, they deal with that part well

Best solution in my opinion, is to differentiate from existing High Elves those, who will not be willing to follow Alleria's path to the end, as they were not willing to suck magic from living creatures before, and give them story about finding new ways, slightly turned in favor of nature, reusing some WC2 concepts (to address nostalgia), use some proposed here bronze skins - as consequence of either new lifestyle, crossbreeding, or their own balance searchings in other way. Use Silver Covenant just in recruiting scenario.

That story would in fact strongly follow path of Tolkien elves - who after destruction of Beleriand, become forced to search new settlements, hidden in forests, mountains or underground, between their less noble relatives. And such - it is classic to the core.

What does in fact stop us, from supposition, that there might be exist some unknown refuge camps in all that empty mountains of Eastern Kingdoms, during reigns of Scourge and Horde, now rediscovered after Alliances offensive?

[ninthbelief]

An analogy for what High Elf fans want would be in terms of customer-company relations:

A nation wide company sells a product to half the nation on one form. Advertises that form in the other half of the country with a slightly different label, but doesn't actually sell it in that part of the county. Consumers in that part of the country ask if they can have the product, and the company says no. If you want that product you need to move to the other side of the country. When asked why, they say its a regional thing only. "Even with the different labeling you advertise it under?" The company says that is basically the same thing, but you have to move to get it.

Years later people are still asking for that product to be sold in their half of the country. The new marketing campaign says they'll sell something like it soon. The people are excited by this prospect. When the product arrives, it is the same general look of the product. The labeling is blue and tastes entirely different. "This isn't want we were asking for." Its basically the same thing, but doesn't taste at all like the product sold in the other half of the country, and its also blue, yet the rest of the packaging and look of the item is the same. When asked again why they can't just have the product, they are told its region only and told to move to the other side of the country or just live with the blue product that tastes nothing like the product is suppose to taste.

Customer relations. Now, is this a company failure to understand the consumer? Is this a consumer failure to understand some vague regional reasoning for them not to be able to have said product? There isn't a law in place making it illegal or anything. Its just that the other region thinks it a staple of their region and they don't want to dilute "their" product by letting the other region have it.

That's my take of this issue.

Your analogy is close, but you forgot a bit at the beginning where the product had been advertised for years on one side of the country, just never sold -- THEN it's added to the other side, and continously advertised on the former for years.

When the product comes out, it's also as far away from the initially advertised product physically possible while still maintaining to be the same kind of product.

Again, I don't hate Void Elves, but they will become a lot more beloved after we get the High Elves that Blizzard have been dangling in fronst of us for years and years.

Also, as far as this topic goes about Blizzard just using High Elves as the Alliance opposite of Blood Elves -- that's literally the point of BFA.