Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[Aldo Hawk]

Blood elves are our high elves. In fact, they are our main high elven society in the WoW universe. Sorry that this fact upsets you?

Whether void elves are former blood elves or high elves doesn't really matter. The point I was making was that not even 2 weeks ago several posters in this thread argued against things that they now are backing.

So far as the high elf race goes, there are three variants of the race being represented in game (blood elves, void elves, high elves), with blood elves being the main representation of the high elf race in WoW. Hence, blood elves are our high elves. It's quite simple.

Well, as I said, not bothering too much with this argument, I'm just answering to it by linking a previous explanation just so others can look at it since it has been clear you aren't open to acknowledge truth going against your way.

This is a post I made explaining why what Strippling said about the Chris Metzen's phrase is wrong: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...1#post52208550

[Vaedan]

The blood elf theme has been pushed as being the high elf theme. The only thing that was ever missing was the blue eyes which was given to them. So it wasn't as if they gained that theme recently. They had it since TBC.
The problem is the void elf change means they can play a void theme OR a high elf theme.

So now, its a 2 to 1 situation.
Simply because they don't bring anything design wise that is unique to themselves that separates them from those on the alliance. It is why MMOs almost never share races, not even skin colors, because aesthetics are such a powerful facet that it affects the way the game is perceived.

So now, you have blood elves who...offer paladins. Which you can get thorugh zandalari/tauren as well. That's about it though, and Paladins aren't even a necessary or wanted class.
Which velfers (because lets be real they never cared for high elves just the skins) also want.


So...if a void elf gives me more than blood elves do? Why are blood elves even an option? Despite being the original option, they've become redundant and inferior.

To be honest, because of all you mentioned, blood elves should never be added to the Horde in the first place. They did exactly what all anti-helfers are thinking high elves would do - they blurred the faction lines. As you say, blood elves do not belong to the Horde given their skins, given their aestetics, given them being centered around sophisticated culture, diplomacy and aristocracy. Horde was not centered around those traits, and it was never the main theme of the faction. On the other hand, Alliance was made on those principles. Now you can't blame people that they want to play high elves on the Alliance, when they fit in the faction and are even historicaly tied to the faction as well. Even night elves would fit in the Horde better for many reasons then blood elves.

I remember that when Blizzard announced Blood elves on the Horde, majority of the Horde players were not happy with that. It took a while before they got used to elves on their faction, and there are still players who does not like them. I believe that if Blizzard decided to not add elves to the horde during TBC, almost nobody would want them on the red side now and there would be very little threads dedicated to the horde elves, on the contraty of the alliance high elves, which are non-ending request.

I don't say Horde can't have access to high culture and fancy races. In fact, there are races which fits Horde pretty well and are build around those principles - Zandalari Trolls and even WoD ogres (while they are not really fancy, they had developed empire ruled by mages).

Also, there are still many themes blood elves have and void elves will not have. Void elves abandoned Sunwell, it is no longer a thing for them. Sun, fire, light are all thematics which will be unique to blood elves. They will have to share something with void elves, but it was clear that they are going to share the minute void elves were announced as playable alliance allied race.

[Strippling]

Well, as I said, not bothering too much with this argument, I'm just answering to it by linking a previous explanation just so others can look at it since it has been clear you aren't open to acknowledge truth going against your way.

This is a post I made explaining why what Strippling said about the Chris Metzen's phrase is wrong: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...1#post52208550

I never responded to your original response because you weighed your personal opinion on the matter too much. It's a simple statement.. "blood elves are our high elves". No amount of mental gymnastics changes the fact that they are the MAIN representation of the high elf race in WoW. Again, you can post 3 paragraphs or copy paste your 3 paragraph post, doesn't change the simplicity of the statement. Blood elves are the main representation of the high elf race in WoW, that is a factual statement and one that cannot be genuinely disputed. It's why Metzen stated what he did.

- - - Updated - - -

To be honest, because of all you mentioned, blood elves should never be added to the Horde in the first place. They did exactly what all anti-helfers are thinking high elves would do - they blurred the faction lines. As you say, blood elves do not belong to the Horde given their skins, given their aestetics, given them being centered around sophisticated culture, diplomacy and aristocracy. Horde was not centered around those traits, and it was never the main theme of the faction. On the other hand, Alliance was made on those principles. Now you can't blame people that they want to play high elves on the Alliance, when they fit in the faction and are even historicaly tied to the faction as well. Even night elves would fit in the Horde better for many reasons then blood elves.

I remember that when Blizzard announced Blood elves on the Horde, majority of the Horde players were not happy with that. It took a while before they got used to elves on their faction, and there are still players who does not like them. I believe that if Blizzard decided to not add elves to the horde during TBC, almost nobody would want them on the red side now and there would be very little threads dedicated to the horde elves, on the contraty of the alliance high elves, which are non-ending request.

I don't say Horde can't have access to high culture and fancy races. In fact, there are races which fits Horde pretty well and are build around those principles - Zandalari Trolls and even WoD ogres (while they are not really fancy, they had developed empire ruled by mages).

Also, there are still many themes blood elves have and void elves will not have. Void elves abandoned Sunwell, it is no longer a thing for them. Sun, fire, light are all thematics which will be unique to blood elves. They will have to share something with void elves, but it was clear that they are going to share the minute void elves were announced as playable alliance allied race.

In WCIII the high/blood elves did not have a good relationship with humans. In chronicles we learn that their relationship with humans was one of convenience and they weren't particularly fond of their alliance with humans. As soon as they could they rescinded their allegiance to the Alliance.

Just because you feel blood elves never should have been added to the Horde does not make that notion correct. Given that their relationship with humans was fickle and given the actions of the humans toward them in WCIII, it wasn't unreasonable that they ended up joining the Horde. Some people cry "buh buh, the orcs attacked them why would they join them??". Well, the night elves attacked humans in WCIII yet they both ended up in the same faction.

The alliance never had "claim" on the high elf race. Before WoW was even around the high elves (now known as blood elves) were no longer part of the Alliance, and if anything had a valid reason to wage war on the Alliance if they decided to do so. Arthas destroyed their city and Anduin claimed the Alliance as responsible for Arthas. Furthermore, Garithos attempted to execute them. Blood elves on the Horde made so much more sense than on the Alliance.

The high elf race has been more represented with the Horde than the Alliance throughout the warcraft franchises lifetime.

Also, in regards to the bold, tell that to the players asking for the "light infused" class (ie paladin) for void elves.

[Aldo Hawk]

I never responded to your original response because you weighed your personal opinion on the matter too much. It's a simple statement.. "blood elves are our high elves". No amount of mental gymnastics changes the fact that they are the MAIN representation of the high elf race in WoW. Again, you can post 3 paragraphs or copy paste your 3 paragraph post, doesn't change the simplicity of the statement. Blood elves are the main representation of the high elf race in WoW, that is a factual statement and one that cannot be genuinely disputed. It's why Metzen stated what he did.

Yeah well all you have is to label my explanation as mental gymnastic when it is obviously a very simple explanation that faces your out of context use of the phrase and bury it on the ground where it belongs.

I mean, you can see in the post that Chris mentions other fantasy worlds in a non specific manner, so yeah, my take on it is much more informed than yours that is just the parroting of one phrase and leaving it as a husked slogan of what it was to fit a new meaning inside it.

'I think nobody has abused High elves to this degree' <--- Mentioning other fantasy worlds, AKA High elf as the broad term in fantasy.

AKA High elves in wow are different than in other fantasy worlds and AKA Blood elves and High elves exist at the same time so even if the phrase means what you push for it meaning it actually would just be wrong, so yeah well.

So excuse me if I don't stop by five mere seconds at your spiteful answers and take them seriously when it's obvious that this has become long ago just narrative pushing from your and other's part.

I think at this point the mere fact that developers are introducing ways to actually play High elves should be a gargantuan 'I told you so' in the face of many people here, like you, Snoflake, and Obeskik Kairos.

[Vaedan]

I never responded to your original response because you weighed your personal opinion on the matter too much. It's a simple statement.. "blood elves are our high elves". No amount of mental gymnastics changes the fact that they are the MAIN representation of the high elf race in WoW. Again, you can post 3 paragraphs or copy paste your 3 paragraph post, doesn't change the simplicity of the statement. Blood elves are the main representation of the high elf race in WoW, that is a factual statement and one that cannot be genuinely disputed. It's why Metzen stated what he did.

- - - Updated - - -



In WCIII the high/blood elves did not have a good relationship with humans. In chronicles we learn that their relationship with humans was one of convenience and they weren't particularly fond of their alliance with humans. As soon as they could they rescinded their allegiance to the Alliance.

Just because you feel blood elves never should have been added to the Horde does not make that notion correct. Given that their relationship with humans was fickle and given the actions of the humans toward them in WCIII, it wasn't unreasonable that they ended up joining the Horde. Some people cry "buh buh, the orcs attacked them why would they join them??". Well, the night elves attacked humans in WCIII yet they both ended up in the same faction.

The alliance never had "claim" on the high elf race. Before WoW was even around the high elves (now known as blood elves) were no longer part of the Alliance, and if anything had a valid reason to wage war on the Alliance if they decided to do so. Arthas destroyed their city and Anduin claimed the Alliance as responsible for Arthas. Furthermore, Garithos attempted to execute them. Blood elves on the Horde made so much more sense than on the Alliance.

The high elf race has been more represented with the Horde than the Alliance throughout the warcraft franchises lifetime.

Also, in regards to the bold, tell that to the players asking for the "light infused" class (ie paladin) for void elves.

If you read what I wrote, I comment that blood elves does not belong to the Horde visually and thematicly and that they blurr the faction line in giving Horde features which are defining points of the Alliance. I do not say that they are wrong addition lorewise, but even that there are few BUTs:
- you say humans attempted genocide. It was actually ONE human (Garithos), not the nation of humans as whole. On the other hand, ORCS commited genocide on elves and burned their forest during Second War.
- Trolls are nemesis of thalassians. Elves hate trolls very much. If you say that Darkspear are different trolls to those who elves hate, then I say stormwindian humans are different to those who followed Garithos. If the elves can move past centuries long hatred, then I see no reason why should they bear hatred towards humans.
- in WC3, night elves were actually pretty friendly towards blood elves. This grudge they have towards each other is purely WoW thing.

I never said blood elves had great relations with humans at the end of WC3. Based on WC3, it was clear that elves have issue with humans, but there are plenty of ways of what to do with this, blood elves joining Horde was not the only solution, but I don't deny that it was lore that made it happen. If anything, WC set up blood elves more as morally grey characters, which could still easily end up in the Alliance. We all know that the main reason why blood elves went to the Horde was gameplay. Blizzard needed a race with ties to Outland and which can give paladins to the Horde, and one with ties to the Outland and which can give shamans to the Alliance.

My point is that blood elves definitely changed the Horde. In my view, they damaged the Horde identity since they lack any defining point of the Horde, and are more relatable as Alliance race. You say Alliance never had a claim on the high elf race... well, perhaps not. But still elves are more natural on the Alliance than on the Horde, which before TBC had even lesser claim on the elf race than the Alliance, which actually had some history and lore tied to the elves.

As for velf paladins... I would accept them only as a "void knight" class skin if that ever happens, I would be much more happy to see void elf and nightborne demon hunters tbh. Even Ion said it does not make sense to have void elf paladin few years ago, and while everything can change, this is not likely the case.

For alliance elf paladin fantasy, night elves make much more interesting option. I can easily relate to night elves seeking retribution for Burning of Teldrassil, harnessing power of Black Moon.

[elbleuet]

Arthas acted on behalf of the Scourge (you know... an evil faction). And when he did this, he was undead and no longer human.

So claiming the Alliance is responsible is pure nonsense.

The elves lost their homeland, but the Alliance lost Arthas, Terenas, Uther, Antonidas but also 2 major kingdoms.

And yes. High elves are an iconic Alliance race. That's precisely why Blizzard gave us your thalassian model, but also the possibility to unlock high elf costumizations.

[Kyriani]

With absolutely no proof or evidence you feel free to share this feeling? It's kind of sad because it just comes off as insensitivity to the people who love the races they play and have been given little attention.

Also I wasn't addressing you but another person.

I wasn't trying to be insensitive, I was trying to inspire hope

The only "evidence" I have, if you can even call it that (I wouldn't), is that it seems rather odd to me that Blizzard would focus on a single allied race for such attention, when the other three of the initial batch are also in dire need of additional options, and the method Blizzard is using for Void Elves (simply inheriting existing stuff rather than having new stuff made) is a much quicker and easier thing to do compared to making entirely new assets. In a lot of cases (but not every case), it's as simple a matter as copy/pasting some files into a folder and maybe adding some entries to an index.

I also have another "feeling/instinct/prediction" (whatever you want to call it) that one reason this might be happening for Void Elves (and why it may happen for other allied races) is that more time has become available with the cancellation of Blizzcon. I expected Shadowlands to launch before Blizzcon of this year. With its cancellation, it's no longer a deadline for Blizzard nor do the artists need to take time away from Shadowlands development to make things to show off at Blizzcon. While I do not work for Blizzard, I do have some background in game development, and I'd guess that Blizzcon's cancellation has gained Blizzard at least a month of additional dev time for Shadowlands even without having to move up the release date.

I realize that's all assumption and opinion on my part. I fully admit that. But I felt that sharing my thoughts with you might have offered you some comfort and maybe inspire some hope for you. I apologize if they did the opposite.

[Ardenaso]

I don't know the lore all that well, so I'll start this question by first explaining my understanding of events that lead me to the question in the first place:

So, as far as I understand, the High Elves were dependent on the Sunwell throughout the RTS games until Arthas destroyed it. Then, the High Elves (soon renamed the Blood Elves) went through withdrawal due to some sort of a magic addiction that they now struggled to sate. They started to feed on alternate forms of magic, occasionally the fel, leading to corruptions such as their green eyes and things of that nature. They drained mana from living things, like those mana wyrms.

So here's my question...

What about the High Elves that never joined the Blood Elves of Quel'thalas? The High Elves that remained with the Alliance? The Silver Covenant, the Quel'danis Lodge, all the random High Elves wayfarers we see. Were they not equally affected by the destruction of the Sunwell?

The Blood Elves found alternate forms of magic to feed on, but does this then apply to the High Elves of the Alliance too? Were there those green demonic pillars hidden somewhere that they fed on, like the green pylons in Silvermoon City? If not, how did they sate the hunger?

You should delete your post and ask here instead. This is the High Elf megathread and this is where you ask all things High Elf. Don't make the same mistake as I did before

- - - Updated - - -

Anyway, the High Elves also hoarded mana crystals away from the Blood Elves which greatly contributed to their exile

[Vaedan]

Arthas acted on behalf of the Scourge (you know... an evil faction). And when he did this, he was undead and no longer human.

So claiming the Alliance is responsible is pure nonsense.

The elves lost their homeland, but the Alliance lost Arthas, Terenas, Uther, Antonidas but also 2 major kingdoms.

And yes. High elves are an iconic Alliance race. That's precisely why Blizzard gave us your thalassian model, but also the possibility to unlock high elf costumizations.

This. Claiming Alliance was responsible for Arthas is truly nonsense. What Anduin meant is that Alliance also born evil and non tolerant characters like Arthas and Daelin and thus is also part of the cycle of hatred. The fact that most of the shit Arthas has done was under the Scourge banner is undisputable, and thus Alliance is no longer responsible for that. It is like saying Horde is responsible for Legion's Invasion, since it was caused by Gul'dan, which used to be part of the Horde.

[DeicideUH]

Arthas acted on behalf of the Scourge (you know... an evil faction). And when he did this, he was undead and no longer human.

It's so weird when people try to blame the Alliance for Arthas' actions.

Arthas never led the Alliance in his campaign against the other races. It wasn't an Alliance army that invaded Quel'thalas or sacked Dalaran. The Alliance was actually the first victim of Arthas, with it being betrayed from within and having its forces killed and scattered. The almost entirety of the Scourge campaign in WC3:RoC is Arthas destroying every Alliance force or nation in his path.

Garithos at least was leading a warband of Alliance troops, so you can blame the Alliance for following his lead and granting him troops. That's not the case of Arthas. Even the campaign in Northrend, before he returned to attack everyone, was unsanctioned.

[Ardenaso]

I just realized this: I haven't seen any reaction from the High Elf NPCs about Kael'thas' betrayal and death

[baskev]

What are you even talking about. Yes, they are more than just a look, and Ion recognised that in his interview. But said they wouldn't add them because of their looks.

I am responding to your posts after you started to respond to me.

Did he....he said if you want blue eyed pale skinned elves the horde is there for you. that sentence alone is enough the suggest that they thought they where nothing more then looks. That combined with the current planned looks for void elves kinda confirms it.

They did not think about void elves or high elves long enough. they see the reaction that a lot of people want high elves. So they think this will fix it.
For me and many others its a big fat nope.

we would just love to see a decent allied race, and a wishlist item. Instead of the 1 allied race. And 4...what ever they are's.

[DeicideUH]

I just realized this: I haven't seen any reaction from the High Elf NPCs about Kael'thas' betrayal and death

We've seen only the Quel'lithien ones, who didn't know of his actions and still viewed him as a hero who would return to end Lor'themar's dictatorship some day. It's seen in the "Under the Shadow of the Sun" short story.

From that, I guess at least some high elves saw Lor'themar as an usurper and Rommath's teachings as lies, as they opposed Kael'thas' measures while still hoping he'd return to set things right.

[Ielenia]

Blood elves are losing aesthetics that were unique to them.

I don't remember you making this much fuss over nightborne having the same skin color as the night elves, really.

The skin color alone was a HUGE gain for void elves, leave the hair colors and styles that are unique to blood elves with the blood elves thanks.

If you actually bothered to really read and understand what the pro-high-elf community has been asking for, void elves gaining light skin tones is actually a huge loss, since it basically nails the idea that high elves as an actual playable race is nigh impossible to happen now.

But, hey, no matter how many times we repeat this to all of you, you never deviate from this "all you want is the blood elf model" nonsense.

- - - Updated - - -

That is the definition of a compromise.
If a compromise gives you exactly what you wanted, then it isn't a compromise. That is what compromise means. When you talk salt with the sugar.

Just read what you wrote. First you accuse the pro-high group of not caring about lore and only wanting the BE model:

Which is why the mass majority of helfers are going. "yes this is what we wanted."?

And now you're backpedalling by saying "it's a compromise".

I beg to differ, because it only took a color change to make you, and several other helfers to begin clapping their hands with approval and completely forgetting to have them as a separate AR.
Like...please, you can't keep that up when your actions say otherwise.
You got quite a bit, your denial of it doesn't mean much, but hey, it just goes to show.
when you give a mouse a cookie
First void elves, now skins, and now people asking for void elf paladins and silvermoon as a base.

Me? Re-read my posts, and properly inform yourself of my position before you go throwing egg on your own face. I'm not "clapping my hands in approval" or "completely forgetting to have them as their own AR". But here's the problem: just because I'm accepting this as a compromise, does not mean this is what I wanted nor that I'm happy with the results.

To you? Maybe.
Objectively? It means quite a bit. The model is the exact same as the blood elf, separated only by color. So the model may not matter to you, but color does?
That is insightful

The simple fact void elves are getting light skin tones shows how the "player model" has stopped mattering a long time ago.

No it isn't, because if it was about lore you wouldn't suggest ways of making high elves, the exact same people from the same region separated by only a decade of time, look different from blood elves.

You do know that the sole reason pro-high-elf supporters have been giving those suggestions, was to try to appease the anti-high-elfers who would constantly harp on this "you just want the blood elf model" nonsense.

Its like you read, but you ignore it.
Void elves have void theme and blood/high elf theme.
Blood elves have blood elf theme, and no other theme.
So yeah, what do they get in return?
This is simply math.
1+? = 2
Blood elves need the 1

You do know that, to get something in return, they actually need to lose something? And the blood elves lost nothing. And how about the "holy/light" theme? The golden eyes and all that shit? Did they somehow "lose" it too? Did they lose that customization option?

That is the definition of a compromise where you dont get everything you want. Sorry.

But the void elves were not a compromise since we got absolutely nada of what we have been asking for.

Honestly dude, you're being incredibly obtuse.

And you're just projecting.

Blood elves literally lost a theme to void elves.

They lost absolutely nothing. They still possess that "theme".

You don't need to remove something for it to be lost.

Yes. You do.

"I dont care that i look the exact same as a blood elf. Thats what I wanted."

And that is objectively false. Insultingly false, too, since giving light skin tones to the void elves gives nothing of what I've been asking for.

- - - Updated - - -

They really weren't, though.

But they indeed are, though. I never claimed they are some major players like other playable races, though.

- - - Updated - - -

3 patches worth in which they had a storyline through the silver covenant.
The rest? Quest givers.
Does this mean humans are major for horde too since they occassionally help in WoW?

There were high elves in Theramore. The Silver Covenant is an Alliance-aligned group, who helped us through the Wrath expansion, and against the Thunder King on the Alliance side.

- - - Updated - - -

they never were an iconic race in the vast majority of wow, they barely are a sidekick race, appearing in some instances

And so were the goblins... but here we are.

yeah look different with the same fair skin color, sure.

Yeah, considering how void elf are getting light skin tones similar to blood elves in Shadowlands, I think Blizzard might agree more with me than you, here. Looks like it is sufficient differentiation.

[Syegfryed]

And so were the goblins... but here we are.

goblins didn't join the alliance

Yeah, considering how void elf are getting light skin tones similar to blood elves in Shadowlands, I think Blizzard might agree more with me than you, here. Looks like it is sufficient differentiation.

and thats the point though, people only care about looks

[Ielenia]

goblins didn't join the alliance

No, but they joined the Horde, and were just as much a "never an iconic race" of the Horde, only showing up here and there to help, just like the high elves.

and thats the point though, people only care about looks

No, that's false.

[Rhlor]

I just realized this: I haven't seen any reaction from the High Elf NPCs about Kael'thas' betrayal and death

read in the shadow of the sun

either way those high elves are now Wretched

[Ardenaso]

read in the shadow of the sun

either way those high elves are now Wretched

how about Alliance High Elves, Highvale, or the Allerians

[Highelf]

You guys think Broflake is actually ObeliskKai?

[Rhlor]

how about Alliance High Elves, Highvale, or the Allerians

we know that auric sunchaser leader of allerian stronghold returned to quelthalas along with many high elves in wotlk, those high elves are sad to see that kaelthas turned evil. but they say nothing about his death.

the rest there is no information