Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[Thalassian Bob]

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[IMG]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FGGdiQCXoAAyMfJ?format=jpg&name=4096x4096[/IG]

And of course, someone already reverse-engineered the HE look from her new armor (LINK TO SOURCE)

You know what? This as a Thalassian Heritage Armor shared, with Purple/Gold and Blue/Silver (this) recolors for Void Elves, and Red/Golden and Black/Silver for Blood Elves, would be pretty awesome.

Beautiful! I'd love for a set like that to become available for Thalassians to use but I'd settle for a good looking hood or two that we blood/void elven hunters can use to complete a Farstrider look! Hunters haven't had a good/natural looking hood since WotLK and that one was more of a mail coif than a hood you'd see attached to a cloak.

Also, the Sylvanas developments are such a frustrating ret con.

Edge of Night established over 10 years ago that Sylvanas has always had a callous streak:

"We have only two dozen rangers up there," he said, his voice now a whisper. "They cannot survive that!" Sylvanas didn't turn her gaze away from the dark mass of shambling corpses crushing its way closer to the river ford. It was the height of the Third War, and hours away from Silvermoon's fall at the hands of Arthas's army.

"They merely need to delay them as we fortify the Sunwell's defense," she answered, her tone measured.

"They will die!"

"They are arrows in the quiver," Sylvanas said. "They must be spent if we are to win this."

She was brash. Empty? No—a fighter. She had a warrior's heart.

It's so invalidating for years of story!

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

Beautiful! I'd love for a set like that to become available for Thalassians to use but I'd settle for a good looking hood or two that we blood/void elven hunters can use to complete a Farstrider look! Hunters haven't had a good/natural looking hood since WotLK and that one was more of a mail coif than a hood you'd see attached to a cloak.

Also, the Sylvanas developments are such a frustrating ret con.

Edge of Night established over 10 years ago that Sylvanas has always had a callous streak:

"We have only two dozen rangers up there," he said, his voice now a whisper. "They cannot survive that!" Sylvanas didn't turn her gaze away from the dark mass of shambling corpses crushing its way closer to the river ford. It was the height of the Third War, and hours away from Silvermoon's fall at the hands of Arthas's army.

"They merely need to delay them as we fortify the Sunwell's defense," she answered, her tone measured.

"They will die!"

"They are arrows in the quiver," Sylvanas said. "They must be spent if we are to win this."

She was brash. Empty? No—a fighter. She had a warrior's heart.

It's so invalidating for years of story!

Yeah, but I think the point even if Sylvanas had always had a callous streak, her past self STILL sees the burniing of Teldrassil as an atrocity. How would she not, it's basically what happened to her people.

I totally get the narrative issues that re-introducing a past version of the character cause, it's basically just a way to walk back her more egregious characterization, but the fact that no matter how callous she was in life, seeing herself turning into a mass murderer would be a BIG shock, you know?

Ranger Sylvanas was at the start of the cinematic in denial that Banshee could ever be her, but by the end she understands they are the same person. It's a "what have I become" moment, it's not about Ranger Sylvanas "never doing that", because she literally did when faced to the darkest path.

Again, I have my issues at forcing Sylvanas into perspective by merging her with an older version of herself, but they are the same person, just in different points of existence, Ranger Sylvanas DID become the Banshee, and I don think the cinematic did portray that.

[Beloren]

[IMG]

You know what? This as a Thalassian Heritage Armor shared, with Purple/Gold and Blue/Silver (this) recolors for Void Elves, and Red/Golden and Black/Silver for Blood Elves, would be pretty awesome.

Actually, I'd prefer it to come more as a package for the Farstrider look. in additional customisations.

Both groups get tattoos (different styles entirely and colours), fuller beards (also a bit different), scars too, and with it Farstrisder based heritage armor with reclours for void and blood elves.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

Actually, I'd prefer it to come more as a package for the Farstrider look. in additional customisations.

Both groups get tattoos (different styles entirely and colours), fuller beards (also a bit different), scars too, and with it Farstrisder based heritage armor with reclours for void and blood elves.

Lol it's not like we actually have a say in the matter XD

It WOULD be cool, of course, but all the HE stuff we have gotten has been low effort stuff so I'm not really expecting much more.

[Beloren]

Lol it's not like we actually have a say in the matter XD

It WOULD be cool, of course, but all the HE stuff we have gotten has been low effort stuff so I'm not really expecting much more.

I know right, but it's fun to pretend like we do


Maybe they see what we want.

[Thalassian Bob]

Yeah, but I think the point even if Sylvanas had always had a callous streak, her past self STILL sees the burniing of Teldrassil as an atrocity. How would she not, it's basically what happened to her people.

I totally get the narrative issues that re-introducing a past version of the character cause, it's basically just a way to walk back her more egregious characterization, but the fact that no matter how callous she was in life, seeing herself turning into a mass murderer would be a BIG shock, you know?

Ranger Sylvanas was at the start of the cinematic in denial that Banshee could ever be her, but by the end she understands they are the same person. It's a "what have I become" moment, it's not about Ranger Sylvanas "never doing that", because she literally did when faced to the darkest path.

Again, I have my issues at forcing Sylvanas into perspective by merging her with an older version of herself, but they are the same person, just in different points of existence, Ranger Sylvanas DID become the Banshee, and I don think the cinematic did portray that.

I suppose so. I just think it's a disappointing route to take to make it seem as though Sylvanas, a character shaped by a burning desire for agency, has essentially not been in control of herself or the choices she's made, for the past decade. I think it's just more evidence of the writing team not understanding the characters they have control over or the universe that has been built for them by their more competent predecessors.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

I suppose so. I just think it's a disappointing route to take to make it seem as though Sylvanas, a character shaped by a burning desire for agency, has essentially not been in control of herself or the choices she's made, for the past decade. I think it's just more evidence of the writing team not understanding the characters they have control over or the universe that has been built for them by their more competent predecessors.

I have seen this read (bolded part) elsewhere but I can't say I see it myself. I don't think the story has said at any point Sylvanas has not been in control of herself, at most she was manipulated by the Jailer who totally!! was gonna bring free will back, y'all!!

IMO the cinematic was about Ranger Sylvanas being in utter denial of what she had become, but she did become that. "That Banshee is you", that's her future, that's why it's so heartbreaking from her perspective.

Again, I don't totally vibe with the necessity of bringing Past Sylvanas up to force that sense of perspective in Present Sylvanas, that does feel like a cop out, but yeah, Banshee Sylvanas, after escaping Arthas control, hasn't been controlled by anyone else.

[Kyriani]

I suppose so. I just think it's a disappointing route to take to make it seem as though Sylvanas, a character shaped by a burning desire for agency, has essentially not been in control of herself or the choices she's made, for the past decade. I think it's just more evidence of the writing team not understanding the characters they have control over or the universe that has been built for them by their more competent predecessors.

You seem to be misunderstanding what's happening in the story. She's not being absolved of her actions, but rather she's taking responsibility for them. This video explains it quite well:

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

You seem to be misunderstanding what's happening in the story. She's not being absolved of her actions, but rather she's taking responsibility for them. This video explains it quite well:

Actually it was watching this very same video that I remembered that Uther explicitly states whats going on on his "Stay a while and listen" with Jaina:

When Arthas struck me down, Frostmourne shattered my soul. But it was not divided into one part that was noble and another that was cruel.
Rather, it was as if a portion of my consciousness remained frozen in time while the rest of my soul carried on.
To feel that missing fragment restored... well, it has caused me to reflect upon many of the choices I have made

I feel like a lot of people that might be misunderstanding what is going on are missing this bit of context; even I, while remembering how the soul splitting worked from doing the campaign and all, had forgotten that Uther states what's going on with the soul split in quite literal and certain terms!

EDIT: LMAO now I'm reaching the end of the vid and literally they are showing that part XD!

[Linkedblade]

You seem to be misunderstanding what's happening in the story. She's not being absolved of her actions, but rather she's taking responsibility for them. This video explains it quite well:
[video=youtube;EQ5Nr4x2OLc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQ5Nr4x2OLc[video]

How exactly can she redeem herself after all she has done? How could she be punished that would be worse than everything she has already been through?

[Vaedan]

I feel like a lot of people that might be misunderstanding what is going on are missing this bit of context; even I, while remembering how the soul splitting worked from doing the campaign and all, had forgotten that Uther states what's going on with the soul split in quite literal and certain terms!

Same here, these little details really help to accept the message this cinematic is trying to give. The problem is that if you can easily skip (like just not clicking to Uther in Korthia) this important explanation how soul split actually works, it is clear that people will not understand. Maybe it was planned to explore more before they had to scratch one patch cycle from Shadowlands development, so all we have is rushed campaign which tries end all covenant stories and one optional "Stay a while and listen".

On the other hand, the cinematic itself is pretty clear though. It has pretty straightforward statements in lines That Banshee is you. Her crimes are unforgivable. I must face the consequences.. The last one is the confirmation that Sylvanas herself realized that it was her who turned into a monster and for the first time, she is not trying to escape her fate. Now I'm actually interested in what insight we will get from the new book.

How exactly can she redeem herself after all she has done? How could she be punished that would be worse than everything she has already been through?

It depends on many things, there are certainly more ways how to redeem or punish her. She can stay in Shadowlands and serve as a new Jailer (or whatever title the prime overseer of the Maw will get after Zovaal), she can return to Azeroth and face "mortal justice". She might be handed down to Tyrande who will decide her fate. At this point, we do not know. What we know is that she is probably willing to face the consequences, as has been implied in the cinematic.

[Tanaria]

It depends on many things, there are certainly more ways how to redeem or punish her. She can stay in Shadowlands and serve as a new Jailer (or whatever title the prime overseer of the Maw will get after Zovaal), she can return to Azeroth and face "mortal justice". She might be handed down to Tyrande who will decide her fate. At this point, we do not know. What we know is that she is probably willing to face the consequences, as has been implied in the cinematic.

Tyrande and Sylvanas are set to meet again in 9.2, although that meeting has not been datamined yet.

I must say, I've been very critical of Sylvanas, but the more "Ranger General" version of her is the character I loved. This was the reason why I made a Blood Elf Hunter. Even though she was dark, she still carried that "vibe" about her during WoTLK.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

Same here, these little details really help to accept the message this cinematic is trying to give. The problem is that if you can easily skip (like just not clicking to Uther in Korthia) this important explanation how soul split actually works, it is clear that people will not understand. Maybe it was planned to explore more before they had to scratch one patch cycle from Shadowlands development, so all we have is rushed campaign which tries end all covenant stories and one optional "Stay a while and listen".

On the other hand, the cinematic itself is pretty clear though. It has pretty straightforward statements in lines That Banshee is you. Her crimes are unforgivable. I must face the consequences.. The last one is the confirmation that Sylvanas herself realized that it was her who turned into a monster and for the first time, she is not trying to escape her fate. Now I'm actually interested in what insight we will get from the new book.

Indeed! I do think the cinematic was clear enough, but I do get how people would have doubts. Nonetheless, Uther's whole story is all about this, and while I get that non Kyrian players only saw one part of it, it was the necessary one to understand what's going on, and the "stay a while and listen" in Korthia pretty much spells it out.

Now, should an important story beat be more prominent than a "stay a while and listen"? I would say so. It feels like a lot of the narrative impact is hanging on to knowledge of this, so I would think that having Uther talk about his experience kind of should have been an impromptu RP moment in Korthia from time to time. TBH it would have been neat that if the "stay a while and listen" events happen randomly thorough the day.

[Vaedan]

Tyrande and Sylvanas are set to meet again in 9.2, although that meeting has not been datamined yet.

Yes, I'm actually really curious how their meeting will turn out. Both went through major change lately. I must say, I hope Tyrande would remain some of the ruthless face Night Warrior brought, but I don't know, with all that "renewal over vengeance", anything is possible.

I must say, I've been very critical of Sylvanas, but the more "Ranger General" version of her is the character I loved. This was the reason why I made a Blood Elf Hunter. Even though she was dark, she still carried that "vibe" about her during WoTLK.

You know, after WotLK, Sylvanas story was about escaping her fate. She knew what is waiting on her and she did what she could to further that fate, nothing suggested she worked for Jailer for years. I wonder... Did she really wanted to serve him all this time? When you watch the Legion cinematic when Vol'jin named her Warchief, she was surprised. In Before the Storm, she admited in her thoughts that she did not want to be a Warchief.
Now I speculate that even though she knew about the Jailer and made a pact with him, while she was on Azeroth, she was doing her business to avoid that... service. She did all she could to not die and get into the Shadowlands. Eventually, Jailer manipulated her into a position of power, reminded her of the pact she made years ago and set her on a path leading to her orchestrating worldwide conflict. When she saw his influence is too great, she submitted and joined his cause finaly.

Maybe we will learn more about this in the new book.

[Kyriani]

How exactly can she redeem herself after all she has done? How could she be punished that would be worse than everything she has already been through?

Redeem herself? I don't think she can. I also don't think that's what Blizzard is trying to do with her. And while were I in Sylvanas's place, I wouldn't believe myself redeemable, it wouldn't stop me from trying to do something... anything... to make up for the terrible things I had done. As for punishment... I don't think there's any that would make the people of Teldrassil feel better, nor make Sylvanas feel like she has repaid her debt to them. Even were Sylvanas to die heroically stopping Zovall from unmaking the universe, the stigma of her prior actions would always be there.

I don't think Blizzard is trying to tell a redemption story, but rather a "fall from grace" story. How Sylvanas went from being a hero of Silvermoon, to a genocidal murderer, and perhaps, how she might try to make up for that even if nothing she does could ever make up for her actions.

[Thalassian Bob]

I have seen this read (bolded part) elsewhere but I can't say I see it myself. I don't think the story has said at any point Sylvanas has not been in control of herself, at most she was manipulated by the Jailer who totally!! was gonna bring free will back, y'all!!

IMO the cinematic was about Ranger Sylvanas being in utter denial of what she had become, but she did become that. "That Banshee is you", that's her future, that's why it's so heartbreaking from her perspective.

Again, I don't totally vibe with the necessity of bringing Past Sylvanas up to force that sense of perspective in Present Sylvanas, that does feel like a cop out, but yeah, Banshee Sylvanas, after escaping Arthas control, hasn't been controlled by anyone else.

You seem to be misunderstanding what's happening in the story. She's not being absolved of her actions, but rather she's taking responsibility for them. This video explains it quite well:

I usually find it very hard to sit through Taliesin's constant apologia and this video was no different. But, I watched the whole thing and still disagree with him about the implications of the fundamentals of the story decision and with the idea that it was a good decision to make.

Even if the writers and the characters believe that Frostmourne's soul-shattering properties do not absolve someone of the sins one element of themselves made while they were not whole, I believe they are wrong and, as such, I do not think this is a good direction to go in. When it comes to real-world justice, we factor in things that might impact someone's cognition: alcohol, narcotics, sleep-walking, trauma, passion etc. A person is not fully capable of making rational decisions when their faculties are impaired and Sylvanas (and Uther) having an aspect of themselves, clearly an empathetic and reflective part, stolen away from them and having the remaining elements of that person go on to do terrible things, undermines the ability to judge that person as being wholly in control of their actions.

Even if Blizzard is suggesting with this cinematic that Sylvanas will no go unpunished for her decisions, it still results in an equally frustrating case of affairs wherein people who ponder the implications of a soul-shattering are going to be compelled to judge her less harshly because she was literally not truly herself - regardless of what Taliesin argues.

[Vaedan]

Even if the writers and the characters believe that Frostmourne's soul-shattering properties do not absolve someone of the sins one element of themselves made while they were not whole, I believe they are wrong and, as such, I do not think this is a good direction to go in. When it comes to real-world justice, we factor in things that might impact someone's cognition: alcohol, narcotics, sleep-walking, trauma, passion etc. A person is not fully capable of making rational decisions when their faculties are impaired and Sylvanas (and Uther) having an aspect of themselves, clearly an empathetic and reflective part, stolen away from them and having the remaining elements of that person go on to do terrible things, undermines the ability to judge that person as being wholly in control of their actions.

Even if Blizzard is suggesting with this cinematic that Sylvanas will no go unpunished for her decisions, it still results in an equally frustrating case of affairs wherein people who ponder the implications of a soul-shattering are going to be compelled to judge her less harshly because she was literally not truly herself - regardless of what Taliesin argues.

The use of alcohol, drugs, acting on a basis of trauma or passion does not change your trial though. You still get punished. The only case when you are being judged differently is when your perception is shrouded and you can't control yourself. Even then, you can be put into the jail, with the constant medical care.

It is not the case of Sylvanas. When your soul is split, it's still you. It does not make good or bad side. It makes your soul incomplete, which creates major pain you are going through. Jailer used that pain to manipulate people. Uther told her she will need to embrace what she become in order to wake up and at the end of the cinematic, she did. She does not expect to be forgiven and Uther did not comfort her that she will, on the contrary.

[Beloren]

The use of alcohol, drugs, acting on a basis of trauma or passion does not change your trial though. You still get punished. The only case when you are being judged differently is when your perception is shrouded and you can't control yourself. Even then, you can be put into the jail, with the constant medical care.

It is not the case of Sylvanas. When your soul is split, it's still you. It does not make good or bad side. It makes your soul incomplete, which creates major pain you are going through. Jailer used that pain to manipulate people. Uther told her she will need to embrace what she become in order to wake up and at the end of the cinematic, she did. She does not expect to be forgiven and Uther did not comfort her that she will, on the contrary.

However it does have mitigating effects. Sylvanas now is not the Sylvanas that committed those crimes. We argue that from perspectives of "not in right mind" , "substance influence", "psychological trauma".. this case is far more powerful because we know her soul was split, and we know how, it will have to have mitigating effects.

Tyrande meeting with Sylvanas should for a change show the High priestess side of her, forgiveness and healing -if Tyrande understands what has actually happened, and has truly found inner peace and resolve through mercy, she will be an advocate for Sylvanas,

- - - Updated - - -

Indeed! I do think the cinematic was clear enough, but I do get how people would have doubts. Nonetheless, Uther's whole story is all about this, and while I get that non Kyrian players only saw one part of it, it was the necessary one to understand what's going on, and the "stay a while and listen" in Korthia pretty much spells it out.

Now, should an important story beat be more prominent than a "stay a while and listen"? I would say so. It feels like a lot of the narrative impact is hanging on to knowledge of this, so I would think that having Uther talk about his experience kind of should have been an impromptu RP moment in Korthia from time to time. TBH it would have been neat that if the "stay a while and listen" events happen randomly thorough the day.

I think it's not as much the cinematic that is difficult as it is the concepts they are tackling. Redemption? Forgiveness? Accountability? Guilt? Responsibility - it's a unique situation for sure - how much is a person to blame when they are not in control of their own faculties themselves or are not entirely themselves. How does this change when they actually become a new person

[Alixie]

Tyrande meeting with Sylvanas should for a change show the High priestess side of her, forgiveness and healing -if Tyrande understands what has actually happened, and has truly found inner peace and resolve through mercy, she will be an advocate for Sylvanas,

This made me vomit. I'm being dramatic, but what an utterly horrific way to wrap up the genocide plotline.

People use religion to guilt trip victims into forgiving and even helping recuperate their own abusers to the point of absolving them of their crimes.

"You wont find salvation without forgiveness."
"Your hatred will eat at your soul."
"You must forgive to move on and heal."
"You are not a person of good faith if you hate instead of love."

Tyrande being a priestess, and to an extent, the religious Night Elves have no obligation to forgive their mass murderer. Sylvanas is neither Alliance, a Night Elf, nor a follower of Elune, therefore she has less reason to make a very extraordinary exception to console or rehabilitate Sylvanas. She owes Sylvanas nothing. Nobody is owed forgiveness.

That being said, I think this scenario is likely to happen. Its egregious because there is a lot of parallel between this story and the abuse that actually happened at Blizzard - and because Blizzard is in charge, they literally can force the moral, "Justice is bad because it is vengeance. Victims must always forgive." They can also literally make God/Elune tell her followers that they need to forgive their genocider, else be denied "renewal".

What would be a twist is if Sylvanas actually did become a follower of Elune, or religious in some way as a form of repentance. Might make for some interesting dialog between Sylvanas, Calia, and the more morally grey Forsaken.

[Mace]

This made me vomit. I'm being dramatic, but what an utterly horrific way to wrap up the genocide plotline.

And i'm sure that is what will happen. It's already been set up.. for Tyrande to lash out now, completely undoes the healing and resolution to fight for life that concluded heer arc.


however it may not be so cringe worthy depending on how the scene is written to play out. Sometimes being hte one to show mercy actually makes you incredible - but it depends on the circumstances and how it is written out.