I ate too many prunes

[Charge me Doctor]

Flying mount, ground mount, engineering boots, engineering gloves, mirror image, cone of cold, pvp trinket, deep freeze, spellsteal, ice barrier, ring of frost, blizzard, ice lance, combustion, evocation, invisibility, polymorph, ice block, blink, frostfire bolt, frostbolt, alter time, blazing speed, slow fall, counterspell, fireball, fireblast, pyroblast, frost nova, arcane explosion, dragon’s breath, flamestrike, timewarp, berserking, mana gem, refreshment table, frostjaw, goblin glider, presence of mind, conjure food, mage armor, molten armor, frost armor, arcane intellect, portals, teleports = 55+ and I'm probably forgetting some

plus that's not even counting toys and other items that have been removed from everyday combat and rbg/arena macros

Sounds like you weren't getting nearly as much out of your characters as I was. No spell was EVER worthless.

You could remove more than a half of your binds by using macroses like
#showtooltip волна исцеления
/use [@mouseover,help,nodead][help,nodead]волна исцеления
/use [@mouseover,harm,nodead][harm,nodead]молния
/scriptUIErrorsFrame:Clear()

Why they fuck i want to have a healing wave AND lightning bolt on my bars if i can merge them into one? And the remove the bar completely because i know where its keybind and it's just a clutter on my screen at this point?
Ice lance can be easily merged with frostbolt and fireball, so its 3 buttons in one, frost nova with CoC and DB, flamestrike with blizzard.

The point is, it's your choice to clutter your bars with all this shit instead of making proper interface, then complain about pruning on forums and use your own laziness as an argument.

Here, that's how my bars look on my shaman alt, https://imgur.com/glptG9r , such clutter, no space.

The bonus of playing with keybinds over clicking on bars is that you know which button of your keyboard does what, you don't need these cluttered bars on screen, why are people bragging about having 77 useless keybinds AND showing them on the screen taking away like 1/7 of vision?

Maybe there are some people who complained about demons, teleports and polymorphs being merged into one button?

- - - Updated - - -

so if a class has a number of spell like "debuff the X type mob" for each X type in the game and then the number of types is arbitrarily high, then the game is arbitrarily deep?

Fireball(Humanoid), Fireball(Critter), Fireball(Demon), Fireball(Beast), Fireball(Elemental), Fireball(Dragon).

Such deep game, many spells. I like this idea

- - - Updated - - -

If you had been paying attention, people are upset about abilities that had actual uses, like hibernate, soothe, fairy fire and the abilities pertaining to more than one spec for instance.

Oh and to clear up your confusion rosso, I play a subtlety rogue.

Loss of fairy fire was purely PvP balancing thing, so, you can blame it on that.

- - - Updated - - -

...right, because having 70 keybinds is normal, right? How is that even remotely considered fun? You don't even have enough keys for that, you'd HAVE to use a mouse.

Sorry, but you're not the norm if you think that's "acceptable".

You have really easy access to 30-4(wasd) keys, 26x3(shift, alt and ctrl modifiers) -1 (you really don't want to bind alt+f4), so 77. And i'm not counting mouse3 button and mousewheel up and down. But in reality you don't need all of these, 12 binds (20 at max), everything else is excessive

[TheWorkingTitle]

you gained improved flamestrike (passive)
you gained inferno blast (passive)
You gained Improved scorch (passive)
You gained enchaned pyrotechnics (passive)

You just listed a bunch of passives. They are not abilities like I listed. They aren't comparable. These are irrelevant to this discussion.

Unless, of course, you want me to throw in the WoD perks/abilities that Fire Mage lost going into Legion and the Artifact abilities it's losing (while gaining nothing in BFA), in which case its actually even more pruning.

Presenece of mind got replaced with evanesce it was not just "removed"

Fire Mage does not have access to Presence of Mind or Evanescence. It was removed from that specialization, so it's a loss of an ability.

uhh no you didnt lose frostjaw... you still had the choice of frostjaw in wod. https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...-Guide-for-6-2 teir 45 talent

I got my expansions mixed up. We lost Frostjaw from WoD to Legion, among others. Even more pruning happened if you throw in WoD to Legion's losses.

What happened was Mirror Image was ripped from baseline Mage and re-instituted as a Talent. So we not only had our baseline ability taken away, but then they offered it to us again as a Talent at a cost of other choices. What a joke, I forgot about that bullshit.

also looking at mop guide, like 90% of those where NEVER used. no cone, lance, freeze, shatter, explosion, blizzard, mage or frost armor, arcane, frostbolt, frostfire, frostjaw.

And this is where your ignorance shows. Please don't try and act like you know about this subject if you don't actually. All of those abilities were widely used, especially in PvP. I shouldn't even acknowledge this portion it's so wrong.

[bloodmoth13]

So long. i dont miss having BS abilities like expose armor or 12 ranks of 'heal'. I dont need more rotational buttons than i have fingers to press, if making the inputs harder is the only way you can think of adding depth to the game, then you should never be a game developer

[FelPlague]

You just listed a bunch of passives. They are not abilities like I listed. They aren't comparable. These are irrelevant to this discussion.

Unless, of course, you want me to throw in the WoD perks/abilities that Fire Mage lost going into Legion and the Artifact abilities it's losing (while gaining nothing in BFA), in which case its actually even more pruning.



Fire Mage does not have access to Presence of Mind or Evanescence. It was removed from that specialization, so it's a loss of an ability.



I got my expansions mixed up. We lost Frostjaw from WoD to Legion, among others. Even more pruning happened if you throw in WoD to Legion's losses.

What happened was Mirror Image was ripped from baseline Mage and re-instituted as a Talent. So we not only had our baseline ability taken away, but then they offered it to us again as a Talent at a cost of other choices. What a joke, I forgot about that bullshit.



And this is where your ignorance shows. Please don't try and act like you know about this subject if you don't actually. All of those abilities were widely used, especially in PvP. I shouldn't even acknowledge this portion it's so wrong.

1. you listed a few passives, armors, shatter.
2. https://www.altered-time.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=840 yes, in wod they did have evanescence, seems you havent played fire mage in wod.
3. lol legion added alot to fire mage, but it happens, again balancing the game is not allways pruning.
4. funny because you mentioned "no pvp" because if so and your comparing to now then fire has temportal shield and greater pyoblast

[TheWorkingTitle]

1. you listed a few passives, armors, shatter.

I listed exactly one passive - Shatter. The Armors were all abilities, cast-able and used for fighting different enemies in either PvE or PvP.

yes, in wod they did have evanescence, seems you havent played fire mage in wod.

Lol, you've misconstrued this entirely. I said Fire Mage lost Presence of Mind from MoP to WoD.

funny because you mentioned "no pvp" because if so and your comparing to now then fire has temportal shield and greater pyoblast

Quote where I said "no pvp?"

And it doesn't nearly make up for losing all the other abilities Fire Mage lost.

Cone of Cold, Ice Lance, Deep Freeze, Arcane Explosion, Presence of Mind, Blizzard, Mage Armor, Frost Armor, Mirror Image, Alter Time, Arcane Blast, Frostbolt, Frostfire bolt, Conjure Mana Gem, and Evocation.

This is without even listing out everything that was lost from WoD going into Legion, and now Legion going into BFA.

[Aphrel]

So much pruning..
First we lose around 80-90% of our skills when spellranks got removed.
Then we lose around 66% of our skills that gets locked to specialization.
Then we can only pick 1 ability in each talent row out of 3...

Ofc for spellranks its not like we were using all of them.. But some rank 1 spells were used frequently.. to save mana or to slow without doign to much dmg for things that wasnt allowed to die.

Also, since the more popular legendary effects is going to talent rows, thats more skills "lost" since whatever they replace will dissapear AND you wont be able to pick any of the other 2 talents in that row if you pick the legendary talent...

We are slowly reverting back to the 1 button dps rotations we had in vanilla....

[FelPlague]

I listed exactly one passive - Shatter. The Armors were all abilities, cast-able and used for fighting different enemies in either PvE or PvP.



Lol, you've misconstrued this entirely. I said Fire Mage lost Presence of Mind from MoP to WoD.




Quote where I said "no pvp?"

And it doesn't nearly make up for losing all the other abilities Fire Mage lost.

Cone of Cold, Ice Lance, Deep Freeze, Arcane Explosion, Presence of Mind, Blizzard, Mage Armor, Frost Armor, Mirror Image, Alter Time, Arcane Blast, Frostbolt, Frostfire bolt, Conjure Mana Gem, and Evocation.

This is without even listing out everything that was lost from WoD going into Legion, and now Legion going into BFA.

1. still more, if you are going to list passives, im going to list passives
2. no.. no you didnt

Fire Mage does not have access to Presence of Mind or Evanescence. It was removed from that specialization, so it's a loss of an ability.

3. cant seem to find no pvp thought you did oh well, still gained more spells, and again most of those spells were not "fire spells" so really they wernt needed, and their use was either not needed or moved to other spells.

seriously when was the last time you saw a fire mage run out of mana? would you rather they leave mana gem and evocation in without any use other then "look purty"

- - - Updated - - -

So much pruning..
First we lose around 80-90% of our skills when spellranks got removed.
Then we lose around 66% of our skills that gets locked to specialization.
Then we can only pick 1 ability in each talent row out of 3...

Ofc for spellranks its not like we were using all of them.. But some rank 1 spells were used frequently.. to save mana or to slow without doign to much dmg for things that wasnt allowed to die.

Also, since the more popular legendary effects is going to talent rows, thats more skills "lost" since whatever they replace will dissapear AND you wont be able to pick any of the other 2 talents in that row if you pick the legendary talent...

We are slowly reverting back to the 1 button dps rotations we had in vanilla....

i love how you use examples of vanilla of "we have so many buttons" then you say "We are returning to 1 button vanilla" see here is the thing, vanilla had a fuck ton of spells, usually 5 max used often, well the rest were used once a month, one a bg, or once a raid... Pruning down the abilities we dont use or need simply makes less bloat, less confusion for new places, and less chances for something to randomly become super overpowered.

[TheWorkingTitle]

still more, if you are going to list passives, im going to list passives

Let me reiterate for you since you didn't get it the first time. You listed all passives, while I listed 15+ abilities and exactly 1 passive. They aren't equal or comparable. Stop acting like they are.

Here is the list of abilities that were removed from MoP to WoD if you missed it: Cone of Cold, Ice Lance, Deep Freeze, Arcane Explosion, Presence of Mind, Blizzard, Mage Armor, Frost Armor, Mirror Image, Alter Time, Arcane Blast, Frostbolt, Frostfire bolt, Conjure Mana Gem, and Evocation .

This list grows significantly if you consider WoD to Legion and now Legion to BFA. Way more pruning than any additions.

no.. no you didnt

Yes I did. Fire Mage does not have access to either Presence of Mind or Evanescence. We've had both pruned.

still gained more spells

Nope. Just more falsehoods from you, par for the course in this thread. We lost way more abilities(+passives/perks) than we gained.

seriously when was the last time you saw a fire mage run out of mana? would you rather they leave mana gem and evocation in without any use other then "look purty"

That's rich. Once upon a time, Mages had 4+ Mana Gems thanks to Spell Ranks. Mana was an extremely valuable resource that had to be managed then (proving mastery over a class and its limits), and all of my Gems were bound and used in raiding/pvp. As time has gone on, the game has become way more simplified. They eventually limited me to just 1 Mana Gem, before removing Mana as a mechanic for Fire except when we Spellsteal (and that was severely nerfed too, limiting counter-play in PvP). Prunes all around.

Evocation, however, was an absolute staple of Mage from the very beginning. In MoP it was coupled with the Invocation talent which was used in Challenge Modes, Raiding, PvP, and especially Solo-play. Yet another useful ability pruned.

cant seem to find no pvp thought you did oh well

LOL. Why am I not surprised that you mis-remember/mis-quote. This is the second time you've put words in my mouth. You're all over the place because you have no actual argument.

and again most of those spells were not "fire spells" so really they wernt needed, and their use was either not needed or moved to other spells.

Shows you know nothing of what it meant to be a Mage in World of Warcraft. They had access to all three sects of the Arcane (Fire/Frost/Arcane), and could use all three in battle together. That was what a Mage was from Classic to MoP (read: 10 years). The prune undid the entire foundation of Mage. Hence why the game has gone downhill, largely in part due to the prunes. Not only were those abilities needed, but they were an integral part of what defined the very class.

[FelPlague]

Let me reiterate for you since you didn't get it the first time. You listed all passives, while I listed 15+ abilities and exactly 1 passive. They aren't equal or comparable. Stop acting like they are.

Here is the list of abilities that were removed from MoP to WoD if you missed it: Cone of Cold, Ice Lance, Deep Freeze, Arcane Explosion, Presence of Mind, Blizzard, Mage Armor, Frost Armor, Mirror Image, Alter Time, Arcane Blast, Frostbolt, Frostfire bolt, Conjure Mana Gem, and Evocation and many many more if you consider WoD to Legion and now Legion to BFA.



Yes I did. Fire Mage does not have access to either Presence of Mind or Evanescence. We've had both pruned.




Nope. Just more falsehoods from you, par for the course in this thread. We lost way more abilities(+passives/perks) than we gained.




That's rich. Once upon a time, Mages had 4+ Mana Gems thanks to Spell Ranks. Mana was an extremely valuable resource that had to be managed then (proving mastery over a class and its limits), and all of my Gems were bound and used in raiding/pvp. As time has gone on, the game has become way more simplified. They eventually limited me to just 1 Mana Gem, before removing Mana as a mechanic for Fire except when we Spellsteal (and that was severely nerfed too, limiting counter-play in PvP). Prunes all around.

Evocation however, was an absolute staple of Mage from the very beginning. In MoP it was coupled with the Invocation talent which was used in Challenge Modes, Raiding, PvP, and especially Solo-play. Yet another useful ability pruned.




LOL. Why am I not surprised that you mis-remember/mis-quote. You're all over the place because you have no actual argument.




Shows you know nothing of what it meant to be a Mage in World of Warcraft. They had access to all three sects of the Arcane (Fire/Frost/Arcane), and could use all three in battle together. That was what a Mage was from Classic to MoP (read: 10 years). The prune undid the entire foundation of Mage. Hence why the game has gone downhill, largely in part due to the prunes. Not only were those abilities needed, but they were an integral part of what defined the very class.

1. they also got a whole new row of talents, mana was made no longer a problem so evocation and mana gem were not needed, they were given a few new spells but i sadly id changed/removed and again

2. again you had accsess to evanescence, this is why i think you didnt play fire mage.
3. so you lost ok here you go 16 (including shatter). 13 if you count 2 literally made useless, you still had alter time, so 12, arcane blast was literally useless so 11 mirror image still there so 10 spells lost that you could have used.
Now lets see whats added, 3 in 100 slot, 4 new passives, and some spell the guide wont tell me so thats 8. so a total difference of 2, or if you really want i can go back on the mirror image and alter time as they were talents, meaning 12-8 meaning a difference of 4.
4. yes mana was a valuble resource, but in wod it was made no longer one, so why still have mana gems as it would NEVER be used. if a spell is LITERALLY USELESS removing it is not something you should cry about. They havent had a trap in a raid since ICC so you think removing "Disarm trap" is removing playability from rogues? "Oh no i cant disarm trap anymore.... noooooo"
5. ok sure nice job i addmitted my fault and your onto "Nah you have no argument"
6. mhm..


but its plain and simple, removing bloated spells that were uneeded, unused, and simply not fitting to the class have made the game faster and faster and more exciting for the average player, do you really want to go back to vanilla where we had 50+ spells but only used 1 in combat?


also i love how everyone cries about "i want my spec to feel special" but then when they make that spec only able to use that specs spells "Ruining the game" every class had overlap spells in mop and before but with wod they wanted to make every spec unique and remove the overlap, and since then specs have felt the most unique then ever from eachother. (Other then all three warlock specs having used soulshards that was dumb and luckly fixed since)

but i think im done here, every other line is a personal jab and its getting pathetic.

[TheWorkingTitle]

they also got a whole new row of talents

A whole new row of talents = 1 ability max. You can't have all 3 at the same time. Certainly doesn't outweigh the 15+ abilities that were removed from MoP to WoD. The prune is even worse when you add in Legion and BFA's prunes, and doubly worse if you look at what was pruned Classic on.

mana was made no longer a problem so evocation and mana gem were not needed

Yeah, because the game has been simplified and catered to the lowest common denominator. Evocation and Mana Gem would be needed still if the game had more depth like it used to. WoD's/Legion's/BFA's prunes have done a large part in lessening the game.

again you had accsess to evanescence, this is why i think you didnt play fire mage.

Please show me where I said WOD Fire Mage didn't have evanescence. I didn't. I was talking about live. And I played exclusively as a Fire Mage throughout WoD for your information.

3. so you lost ok here you go 16 (including shatter). 13 if you count 2 literally made useless, you still had alter time, so 12, arcane blast was literally useless so 11 mirror image still there so 10 spells lost that you could have used.
Now lets see whats added, 3 in 100 slot, 4 new passives, and some spell the guide wont tell me so thats 8. so a total difference of 2, or if you really want i can go back on the mirror image and alter time as they were talents, meaning 12-8 meaning a difference of 4.

Nope, sorry. The difference is actually higher, easily 20+ once you add in the Legion and BFA's continued pruning. Fire Mage has been pruned to hell and back from MoP-era. The pruning is actually even worse the further you go back actually.

so you think removing "Disarm trap" is removing playability from rogues?

Absolutely. Hunters have traps, dungeons had various traps, etc. Taking that away certainly took away from Rogues survivability and their utility.

ok sure nice job i addmitted my fault and your onto "Nah you have no argument"

This entire conversation has been me correcting you or you claiming falsehoods. You don't have an argument, as evidenced by your replies. You're frantically looking up shit from old guides, trying to posit how the class was played because you have no actual idea.

but i think im done here, every other line is a personal jab and its getting pathetic.

And yeah, I'm giving you a taste of your own medicine. Let's not forget how this started. You attacking me after you mistook me for someone else.

mhm..

That's what I thought.

[Deshi]

I just want some more utility for classes, like bring back cyclone and fearie for feral druids, make explosive trap(knockback version), scatter shot and scare beast baseline for all hunter specs, gouge and smoke bomb could easily be baseline for all rogue specs. We dont need to bring back alot of dps abilitys but rather some of the uniqe utility that made classes feel more complete. And scrap honor talents so both pvp and pve players can use all abilitys at any time.

People also need to remember to many abilitys can make the game feel like a cluster f##k. In MoP every class had so much cc that the biggest complain in pvp at the time was that players felt like they spent more time in a cc then actually playing their character. I cataclysm I think we had reach the borderline between to much and to little.

Admit it, it feels good playing a class that has an uniqe ability to that class that can be used in both pve and pvp, example, a shaman with tremor totem.

For those who do not care for more cc or nich abilitys shouldnt worry if they bring back more of these since it wont affect dps rotations ect.