"Cynically negative" community cause of communication breakdown

[Gigabear]

You can't reply to every post and there are people who just make dozens of negative post every day who are going to whine no matter what. Engaging with them makes no difference and whatever you say they are going to spin your words.... Such people are not worth engaging with. It's as true for a WOW community manager as it is for anyone of us in real life.

The wisdom is in being able to pick out the legitimately negative from those who might benefit from some engagement, as opposed to wholesale refusing to engage at all with a large slice of the community. Anyone who thinks I'm the former simply has not been paying attention.

[Paulosio]

To me this just comes across as a load of adolescent kids upset that their posts aren't getting the attention they feel they deserve. It's like they are seeking some form of validation in the form of a blue reply... There are hundreds or thousands of posts on the forums a day and most of them are repeating things that have already been adressed by blue posts in response to other peoples posts...

The funny part is that if Blizz did reply to every such post but used some sort of template that just repeated the original response, people would still complain even though they were getting the same info as the original person. There are only so many ways you can rephrase the same info. What would be the point in not just using a template reply system besides making some special snowflake feel good about themselves for getting a bit of attention ? Not using such a system would just mean the forum managers had to spend longer on each reply and therefore less people would get responses (which in turn people would whine about). This is just another example of how the forum managers can never win.

It's like when you watch a Twitch stream and people keep asking the same questions @Thestreamer trying to get their attention, that have been answered a thousand times and which they could get the answer to in 5 seconds on google but they want the validation of getting the streamers attention. An example of this is Asmongold getting asked the BFA release date about a 100 times today when the answer is in the stream title and everyone already knows the answer or that they could go to MMo champion and find it out anyway.

[Gigabear]

There are hundreds or thousands of posts on the forums a day and most of them are repeating things that have already been adressed by blue posts in response other peoples posts...

If Blue had already addressed an issue in a meaningful way, I wouldn't be after them for a response on that issue, obviously. Examples of not resolving issues include Ilvl scaling, Leveling EXP nerfs.

With Ilvl scaling, the last we heard was they were still open to axing the system. But they never RESOLVED the issue by either removing it, or coming out and saying definitively they were not. Last we heard on exp was they were monitoring it, but have said nothing since on both issues with a metric ton of feedback left, usually AGAINST the changes. Instead of giving us a resolution, they leave the issue to die in a containment thread. They also nerfed some dungeons further, without including the info in patch notes or mentioning it at all.

Anyone asking for a response to an issue that is already resolved can be linked the original reply. There is no need for them to reply again. BUT, in cases where they have not resolved the issue, they should definitely attempt to do so.

[Mekkle]

I feel its a bit shit on both ends of the spectrum, a lot of people in the community just like to screech without and constructive feedback just because it makes them feel good.

Then the devs half the time say the words "WE feel -x- about this, WE think -x-" sometimes going with what they personally believe. Kind of a crap.

[MoanaLisa]

I feel its a bit shit on both ends of the spectrum, a lot of people in the community just like to screech without and constructive feedback just because it makes them feel good.

Then the devs half the time say the words "WE feel -x- about this, WE think -x-" sometimes going with what they personally believe. Kind of a crap.

The fact is that the feedback the developers value most centers around subjective stuff about how someone feels about x or y topic. The very last thing they are looking for is game design advice. Take that for what it is. There are very few absolutes.

[InfiniteCharger]

The fact is that the feedback the developers value most centers around subjective stuff about how someone feels about x or y topic. The very last thing they are looking for is game design advice. Take that for what it is. There are very few absolutes.

Absolutely.

Look at the Beta forums. Only those with access to the Beta can post there. How often do you see the Devs actually interacting with the players posting there?

Blizzard ALLOWS GD to be an open ended free for all mish mash and pile of whatever threads folks want to open and sure they can complain all they want. But those forums are owned by Blizzard. So it is their responsibility to manage and maintain them. Whatever goes on there in terms of what they allow and don't allow is completely on them. Sure, maybe they don't have the staff or resources to constantly monitor all these forums but given that most of the threads and posts seem to be from the same relatively few folks, it really shouldn't be that hard to manage.

But beta forums aren't GD. I mean even a courtesy comment or two on the goals and intentions of x feature and the things to look for in upcoming patches in beta would be nice. Followed by the courtesy comments of good feedback, we thought of that but this is what we want to do. Or even, just the basic, well given our priorities and the timeline of launch we can't really do x, y, z, but we will definitely make note of your concerns.... Not to mention 'thanks for the feed back, we are coming close to wrapping up the dev of this feature and we appreciate all your comments and suggestions'. Come on now this isn't rocket science.

[Netherius]

I think part of the problem is when communication breaks down, people tend to fill in the blanks themselves, and it's usually negative. Also what doesn't help is content creators are posting negative videos because they are trying to prod information out of Blizz so they can create more videos and generate more income. I can't blame them really that's their livelihood, but it's a cheap move. Sometimes it's just because they want to give feedback or shed light on a subject, but more often then not it's to push blizzard into releasing info to create a video. You'll notice after today's announcement some content creators who were saying they were so worried about the state of BfA are suddenly all aboard the hype train again.

[clevin]

You can't reply to every post and there are people who just make dozens of negative post every day who are going to whine no matter what. Engaging with them makes no difference and whatever you say they are going to spin your words.... Such people are not worth engaging with. It's as true for a WOW community manager as it is for anyone of us in real life.

That doesnt matter. You don't have to communicate with every poster and it's obviously fine to ignore the trash stuff "ZOMG Y YOU H8 MY CLASS" etc.

But there are also a lot of good posts made and they rarely engage there.

People upthread have asked for examples of how Blizzard has failed to do this and I have two examples, one recent and one not.


First, the recent one... Zandalari will be unlocked after launch. Great, fine. But WHEN? After a player finished a story that takes place during 8.0? In 8.1? Just tell people (and yes, that should be known by now).

The not recent one... flying. Again, they say "It will be unlocked via pathfinder later..." but again, why didn't they just say "you'll have it in 7.2" or whatever?

This one also suffers from a line they use a lot for other things... 'the team liked the way X worked'... OK but if a lot of players didn't... maybe your team is wrong. And face it, as consensus driven as they might be let's not pretend that the new dev has as much say Ion. Hell, with flying they never really did explain why they liked this change.... that's the other thing they can do for major changes. Give real, defensible reasons for doing something. They did that for the PVP template idea and even though it didn't seem to work out, we at least got reasoning.

[Niwes]

tbh: blizz give a fuck.

look at last times alpha/beta:

thousands and thousands of ppl all told the same stuff about class mechanics problems. i say it again: not 1000 ppl with 1000 different oppinions. no „never let the player decide stuff or the game will become horrible“ shit. no „every player thinks he is a dev“ stuff. i talk about a LOT of ppl structured analyzed bad designed class mechanics, or game design in regards of reward structure and L system, and they showed the foreseable obvious problems in clean analysis, statistics, math, test, etc. - i repeat: A LOT of ppl, theorycrafters and semi profs, said with a common speech the same and obvious things. 90% of them all said the same things. because it were obvious things. blizzard did nothing. Legion went live, as half beta product (class wise) and step by step they faced the problems everybody of the community told them a thousand times while beta. some of the problems get fixed in patches (more later than sooner), some were workarounded halfassed. blizzard didnt talk. blizzard didnt listen. in the end, they had the problems, thousands of ppl warned them months before. the simple and obvious interpretation: blizz give a fuck.

why?

the reason why this is happening (above is just ONE example, its also in many other areas of the game/development) is that blizz is completely trained to cost effective development. this means, in simpler terms „try to dev/work the way you invest least possible effort, with most possible profit“. in reality this means stuff is reduced to its core, not absolutelly needed stuff is canceled, things get homogenized, streamlined, product is in an endless living dev chain, without clear release-with-quality-state-x cycles, and and and. all that leads to cost effectiveness, profit maximizing and its all about quarter numbers. long term investments or goals, quality, loyal customer base, etc is all put in the background and has very low priority in cost effective development. one effect of cost effective development is, you stop really care about customers and use marketing to give the customers a feel of control while in reality you piss on them, look at your target audience and data, and go one fixed route (the most cost effective one). thats what blizz do. always.

to what result this leads?

the problem with this business model is, that superficial the marketing machine works, ppl are half happy, at least ok with it, and everything is shiny shine. the reality is: humans, or the human mind, under the hood, are not that stupid. they get some type of a slight feeling of being blind sided. its a bit like „something is not ok but i cant put my finger on it“. sort of that (hopefully you know what i wanna say). and this leads to cynism and mistrust in the game, the structures, the company, and the descissions. this way the community get a common sense of being ripped. mistrust in the developers and the company is the result. its just that you cant set customers and company on a „same level“, because if you wanna have customers on that level, they must be able to understand WHY the devs do x, and they must share the same point of view. this means, to bring them on the same level and understanding why things are like they are, blizz have to say „look, we want get max money out of it, cost effective development, ...“ and thats a really bad marketing and image for them and will never happen. so the result is: company and players NEVER can act on the same view level. its always that gap. mistrust is the result. and cynism is the direct translation of human minds for this.

as complex this maybe sounds (in first place cause of my bad english) as simple it is, and its the solely and simple reason, for that high niveau of cynism in the community.

short version: players want quality and good experience. blizz want to make max money. that gap in different goals leads to cynism. the higher the gap, the higher the cynism. simple as that.

- - - Updated - - -

Absolutely.

Look at the Beta forums. Only those with access to the Beta can post there. How often do you see the Devs actually interacting with the players posting there?

Blizzard ALLOWS GD to be an open ended free for all mish mash and pile of whatever threads folks want to open and sure they can complain all they want. But those forums are owned by Blizzard. So it is their responsibility to manage and maintain them. Whatever goes on there in terms of what they allow and don't allow is completely on them. Sure, maybe they don't have the staff or resources to constantly monitor all these forums but given that most of the threads and posts seem to be from the same relatively few folks, it really shouldn't be that hard to manage.

But beta forums aren't GD. I mean even a courtesy comment or two on the goals and intentions of x feature and the things to look for in upcoming patches in beta would be nice. Followed by the courtesy comments of good feedback, we thought of that but this is what we want to do. Or even, just the basic, well given our priorities and the timeline of launch we can't really do x, y, z, but we will definitely make note of your concerns.... Not to mention 'thanks for the feed back, we are coming close to wrapping up the dev of this feature and we appreciate all your comments and suggestions'. Come on now this isn't rocket science.

yep. blizz would better get away with just being honest. ppl understand stuff like „we just have x budget. so A has more priority than B.“. if they talk more to ppl aand be more honest, they put ppl on the same level as them. which leads to „trust“. (you are right, its not rocket science)

so why they dont do that ?

because a non cynism community doesnt guarantee for more money income.

in the business model of blizz, based on cost effective development and modern marketing tactics, you just cant be that honest, or at least have to believe it hurts more than it solves.“

[Gigabear]

Much has been said of me in the past few years. Much has been said of communication. Every step of the way, there have been those all too eager to tell me why I was wrong. That I was inherently toxic. That I should just shut up. Well, it is with mixed emotions that I consider taking them up on that. Today's info dump, especially the BFA release date strongly indicates another WoD. I've seen enough of Alpha to know that while they might barely get the features working in time, they won't be able to iterate on anything in response to feedback even if they wanted to.

Instead of spending an endless amount of time on circular arguments, sometimes you just have to step away and let history be the judge of who was right. I'll just be over here revving up in Ashes of Creation. I'm going to want to be on another planet by the time this expac drops

[MoanaLisa]

Absolutely.

But beta forums aren't GD. I mean even a courtesy comment or two on the goals and intentions of x feature and the things to look for in upcoming patches in beta would be nice. Followed by the courtesy comments of good feedback, we thought of that but this is what we want to do. Or even, just the basic, well given our priorities and the timeline of launch we can't really do x, y, z, but we will definitely make note of your concerns.... Not to mention 'thanks for the feed back, we are coming close to wrapping up the dev of this feature and we appreciate all your comments and suggestions'. Come on now this isn't rocket science.

The other effect that they worry too much about, but is a real concern nonetheless, is that any time blue text appears on any kind of substantive topic that discussion usually derails. I can see both sides of this. But Blizzard has very clearly taken the default position of being mostly observers of their forums, especially once Street left, instead of active participants. Given Greg Street's experience there it's understandable if not ideal. Street was an individual voice who was comfortable with give and take. Hazzikostas much less so which is maybe a little surprising given his background at Elitist Jerks. Only a little though since EJ was a very controlled place. It's understandable that he doesn't want to step into that.

And yes, Blizzard's forums are hilariously mismanaged in just about every way possible. Those are my observations given what I do here. It's just mind-numbingly incompetent.

I do wish they would say more though, pick some threads and do what used to be called a water-cooler commentary on the various points without giving away any decisions as such. They could turn comments off on it as far as I'm concerned since commentary on developer statements is generally useless. They could pay more attention to European forums as well. Or any attention.

Going after CM's on this front is pointless. They aren't the problem.

[Eosia]

To me this just comes across as a load of adolescent kids upset that their posts aren't getting the attention they feel they deserve. It's like they are seeking some form of validation in the form of a blue reply... There are hundreds or thousands of posts on the forums a day and most of them are repeating things that have already been adressed by blue posts in response to other peoples posts...

And the thing is their forum mod team doesn't do their job and allows it. They let threads like the "Give Alliance High Elves!" ones clog up the front page (I once counted about 7 or 8 different threads on the topic). So when players point out that a topic has been over-discussed, Ion and co said "No", etc. The forum mods punish that person instead.

In all fairness, players have been cynically mislead and manipulated. Calm, thoughtful, well explained feedback falls on deaf ears. Neither reason nor passion prevail, and the wellspring of goodwill does not flow forever.

Exactly. Legion was a perfect example. A great chunk of the class changes made in 7.1.5 were brought up on the alpha. I echoed them when I got access to the beta. When 7.0 hit the PTR those testers said the same thing too... and the changes still went live. And then four months later, a year after alpha started, they were like "Oops! Our bad" and implemented the feedback suggested.

I feel its a bit shit on both ends of the spectrum, a lot of people in the community just like to screech without and constructive feedback just because it makes them feel good.

Then the devs half the time say the words "WE feel -x- about this, WE think -x-" sometimes going with what they personally believe. Kind of a crap.

I wonder how they feel about losing 50% of the playerbase over the years. And they can't blame all that on China's shifting game market and such.

Look at the Beta forums. Only those with access to the Beta can post there. How often do you see the Devs actually interacting with the players posting there?

You're right. There has been next to no engagement whatsoever. And there are tons of well-written and presented posts on various topics and it's like they just simply don't care. Why even both having people test it then?

[MoanaLisa]

I wonder how they feel about losing 50% of the playerbase over the years. And they can't blame all that on China's shifting game market and such.

One thing that doesn't pass the smell test is that they would have millions more players if CM's/Developers just said more on their forums. Whatever else this is about it's not the cause of masses of people exiting from the game.

[Eosia]

One thing that doesn't pass the smell test is that they would have millions more players if CM's/Developers just said more on their forums. Whatever else this is about it's not the cause of masses of people exiting from the game.

It's not a deciding factor in and of itself, I agree. But people do quit because they feel Blizzard just doesn't care and saying more on the forums is a sign they do care. One that doesn't require much time/resources versus the potential returns.

[Aevari]

I understand them not replying to threads which don't support the growth of WoW in a positive light, But there are alot of good threads in the forums that don't get recognition when they are generally good discussions going on.

I don't believe that not engaging with the community because of how some people act in the forums is the best course of action. Community Managers need to step in more and put an end to those types of discussions.

When alot of the community is cynical it can definitely be hard to want to communicate with us but at the end of the day it's their job to moderate the forum and engage with us. Communication is a part of the job description. Yes I doubt they read every thread -- I mean come on its a huge forum. But at the end of the day if the community isn't the best to deal with to the point where community managers wont step up both sides need to come together to initiate something, otherwise nothing will change. Unfortunately that being said you can never silence trolls and toxic people in a forum, that's where they thrive but just because there is trash in the forum doesn't mean all of us are trash. Less we forget that many people share their thoughts on the forums be they good or bad, its one of the more vocal ways people want to get their views and critiques out. You'll never be able to please everyone.

I admit when I found out on the forums today that devs said they wouldn't be working on new goblin and worgen models I had a good whine about that, but will that stop me from playing the game and enjoying it? No. Did I voice my disappointment hoping that the CMs will forward that through to devs, I sure did -- gosh I hope they collect that feedback other than the positive type because you need both to succeed.

[Al Gorefiend]

Give me an example where Blizzard "isn't listening" to the community please.

Because I've yet to not enjoy their game, and every major criticism of a previous expansion is changed, removed or fixed in the next one.

Case in point: where are the RNG legendaries in BfA? Gone. Because nobody liked the system.

Why are we getting Azerite armor? Because tier sets have ALWAYS been #2 cause of raid group and Guild tension since Vanilla, #1 being super rare mounts (which, surprise, mythic mounts are 100% drop now)

Why Island Expeditions? Because they've been trying to nail 1-3 player content since MoP. First iteration of scenarios were unrewarding and too repetitive, so now scenarios 2.0 are randomized and will feel fresh every time.

Like I'm not a Blizzard apologists, some decisions they make piss me off to no end, removing abilities each expansion being #1. But I don't feel like they aren't listening to us, they're just trying to experiment new ideas and see what sticks the best, because the game is never finished in their eyes.

People think Blizz aren't listening because people are selfish and arrogant on the Internet and fail to see the larger picture and many rarely do research before asking questions on the forums. And everyone thinks their class is the worst and their faction is the unfavored one by Blizz.

[PaterMDx]

lol i want you to speak to the leage community and see if they think the devs include them very highly in the dev process, players first, when skins can cost 300$ and heros constantly come out super over powered first weeks then get mega nerfed once they are reduced in cost.

mimimi when skins can cost 300$ mimimi

in a f2p game with 0 disadvantages if you never ever played mimimi

some people even bitch if stuff is FREE

[Deleted]

I don't think you need to be a rocket scientist to know that if you're building a game based on the feedback of a cynically negative community, you aren't going to end up with a good game.

I know that's not really relevant to the thread but it just came to mind.

But yeh, on topic: I think there's truth in saying cynically negative communities break down communications and basically everything. Unfortunately though, cynical negativity is rife both within and outside of WoW. I'd pretty much say it's all a vast majority of young people know these days. It's no surprise.

The cynical negativiy is a thing they have bred, though. It's not like they are not receiving constructive, nice-worded criticism at all. People just get tired at some point because every effort they do seems to be wasted. And then dev's complain about things they could have prevented if they have just took a different approach.

[Osmeric]

I don't think communication failure is the actual problem. The bigger problem is that the game has incompatible audiences, and Blizzard goes silent to keep stringing along those who it decided to disfavor, to keep them in the dark a bit longer so more money can be extracted before they wise up and quit.

[Eosia]

People quit for all kinds of reasons. It's not really relevant to this discussion.
You're implying there's a significant number of people quitting due to their communication policy. I very much doubt it's the case.

How am I implying that when I literally said "It's not a deciding factor"? All I am saying is if I feel the developers do not care about their own product and the people who play it, why should I care?

And it's a given that people quit for all sorts of reasons. The #1 reason most people I know that have quit was because of Real Life concerns which there is nothing you can really do about that. New job, new baby, relationship aggro, etc. are all outside Blizzard's sphere of control. But people quitting because of apathy is something Blizzard can actually do something to help mitigate. Of course they are not going to be 100% able to prevent that attrition but every subscriber they save is still a subscriber.

I personally know couple of prominent theorycrafters who got disheartened after trying to communicate using feedback, bugreports and testing. They've quit - but I would never suggest that's a significant number - the actual people affected by their shoddy community management and communication policy is just handful of serious testers anyway.

And I see that as a problem. If I am going to Theorycrafter X and they have up and quit because Blizzard stopped listening to them, it is a reflection of a problem with Blizzard.

Patch 7.1.5 was a clear indicator of a problem at Blizzard's end. I remember seeing a large chunk of the class changes in that patch as being something mentioned during Alpha.... and Beta.... and 7.0 on the PTR.... and launch. Hunter traps being one that sticks out. Suddenly, a year later, they're finally listening to the feedback? I don't remember off the top of my head, but I don't think there were many replies to it. And certainly no Dev Water Cooler posts or similar.

Why not address the concerns in the alpha forums about the over-pruning and the feeling that leveling has become just another time/content gate rather than being a power-up for our characters?

The big masses crying for "nerfs, buffs and balance" don't really matter because they never really perform any testing, they've no idea how to write actionable feedback and generally don't even have a way to verifiably show the results of their tests (because they don't test).

And yet Blizzard has allowed them to thrive and, in some cases, encouraged them through hamfisted, and probably bot-driven, enforcement of their forum "rules". For example, I was given a suspension because I dared to complain about the number of threads created by the little children crying for High Elves in the forums. At one point the numerous threads took up about 20% of the topics in General Discussion's first page. And yes, I know GD is one step up from being the septic tank of the WoW Forums. But when I made a post pointing this out, the children reported me and I got suspended for "Trolling/Harassment". I appealed and was told it would stand, my ticket closed on their end, and that any further inquiry into the matter would be ignored (PS: Not a great thing to tell your customers BTW).

This whole communication breakdown is a small group of people who should be heard - but due to Blizzard acting hamfisted, they get thrown into the same bin as the raving forum masses.

It's not them being "hamfisted" in that regard, but rather by allowing the crap to go on like that and bury legitimate concerns/feedback/etc. But the thing is, even with that crap flying around, they can still answer it. Take the aforementioned High Elf for Alliance debate. With the numerous threads, how hard is it to put together a post under the larger umbrella of Allied Races and their place in WoW and put the question to rest once and for all? Then the threads can be closed by the forum mods referring folks to those posts and handing out suspensions for those who continue to create new threads.

Give me an example where Blizzard "isn't listening" to the community please.

Just about every class change in Patch 7.1.5. If you want specifics, Ice Trap being given back to Beast Master and Marksman Hunters. This change was discussed in alpha... in beta... on the PTR when 7.0 hit that... and when Legion launched. A year later Blizzard finally listened as both those specs got Ice Trap and Tar Trap (the aoe slow that replaced Frost Trap) returned to those specs.

If you want another one, how about the fact that after telling Blizzard that we didn't want to be

And for bonus... the events leading to #NoFlyNoSub

I understand them not replying to threads which don't support the growth of WoW in a positive light, But there are alot of good threads in the forums that don't get recognition when they are generally good discussions going on.

I don't believe that not engaging with the community because of how some people act in the forums is the best course of action. Community Managers need to step in more and put an end to those types of discussions.

You hit the nail on the head perfectly here. What is the point of having Community Managers really? Lately the most I've seen of Lore has been hosting duty be it an eSports thing or a Live Q&A. Using MMO-C's Blue Tracker, the last post I was able to find from him was 2 months ago talking about PvP Tuning Changes.

And when other players step up to the plate, they get suspended for trolling.

You'll never be able to please everyone.

Yup. It's impossible to please 100% of the people all of the time. But it IS possible to please 0% of the people all of the time.

I admit when I found out on the forums today that devs said they wouldn't be working on new goblin and worgen models I had a good whine about that, but will that stop me from playing the game and enjoying it? No. Did I voice my disappointment hoping that the CMs will forward that through to devs, I sure did -- gosh I hope they collect that feedback other than the positive type because you need both to succeed.

Exactly. Even if the actual content of your post doesn't make it to them, the CMs should at least be saying "Hey WoW team, there's a big uptick in posts on the forums expressing disappointment in the fact we're not updating Worgen/Goblin models. Is there anything you'd like us to post on the issue?"