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  1. #681
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    One thing that doesn't pass the smell test is that they would have millions more players if CM's/Developers just said more on their forums. Whatever else this is about it's not the cause of masses of people exiting from the game.
    It's not a deciding factor in and of itself, I agree. But people do quit because they feel Blizzard just doesn't care and saying more on the forums is a sign they do care. One that doesn't require much time/resources versus the potential returns.

  2. #682
    Quote Originally Posted by Eosia View Post
    It's not a deciding factor in and of itself, I agree. But people do quit because they feel Blizzard just doesn't care and saying more on the forums is a sign they do care. One that doesn't require much time/resources versus the potential returns.
    People quit for all kinds of reasons. It's not really relevant to this discussion.
    You're implying there's a significant number of people quitting due to their communication policy. I very much doubt it's the case.

    I personally know couple of prominent theorycrafters who got disheartened after trying to communicate using feedback, bugreports and testing. They've quit - but I would never suggest that's a significant number - the actual people affected by their shoddy community management and communication policy is just handful of serious testers anyway.

    The big masses crying for "nerfs, buffs and balance" don't really matter because they never really perform any testing, they've no idea how to write actionable feedback and generally don't even have a way to verifiably show the results of their tests (because they don't test).

    This whole communication breakdown is a small group of people who should be heard - but due to Blizzard acting hamfisted, they get thrown into the same bin as the raving forum masses.

  3. #683
    Field Marshal Aevari's Avatar
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    I understand them not replying to threads which don't support the growth of WoW in a positive light, But there are alot of good threads in the forums that don't get recognition when they are generally good discussions going on.

    I don't believe that not engaging with the community because of how some people act in the forums is the best course of action. Community Managers need to step in more and put an end to those types of discussions.

    When alot of the community is cynical it can definitely be hard to want to communicate with us but at the end of the day it's their job to moderate the forum and engage with us. Communication is a part of the job description. Yes I doubt they read every thread -- I mean come on its a huge forum. But at the end of the day if the community isn't the best to deal with to the point where community managers wont step up both sides need to come together to initiate something, otherwise nothing will change. Unfortunately that being said you can never silence trolls and toxic people in a forum, that's where they thrive but just because there is trash in the forum doesn't mean all of us are trash. Less we forget that many people share their thoughts on the forums be they good or bad, its one of the more vocal ways people want to get their views and critiques out. You'll never be able to please everyone.

    I admit when I found out on the forums today that devs said they wouldn't be working on new goblin and worgen models I had a good whine about that, but will that stop me from playing the game and enjoying it? No. Did I voice my disappointment hoping that the CMs will forward that through to devs, I sure did -- gosh I hope they collect that feedback other than the positive type because you need both to succeed.
    Last edited by Aevari; 2018-04-06 at 05:28 AM.
    "If you lose sight of something, the only person who can find it again is you"

  4. #684
    Over 9000! Al Gorefiend's Avatar
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    Give me an example where Blizzard "isn't listening" to the community please.

    Because I've yet to not enjoy their game, and every major criticism of a previous expansion is changed, removed or fixed in the next one.

    Case in point: where are the RNG legendaries in BfA? Gone. Because nobody liked the system.

    Why are we getting Azerite armor? Because tier sets have ALWAYS been #2 cause of raid group and Guild tension since Vanilla, #1 being super rare mounts (which, surprise, mythic mounts are 100% drop now)

    Why Island Expeditions? Because they've been trying to nail 1-3 player content since MoP. First iteration of scenarios were unrewarding and too repetitive, so now scenarios 2.0 are randomized and will feel fresh every time.

    Like I'm not a Blizzard apologists, some decisions they make piss me off to no end, removing abilities each expansion being #1. But I don't feel like they aren't listening to us, they're just trying to experiment new ideas and see what sticks the best, because the game is never finished in their eyes.

    People think Blizz aren't listening because people are selfish and arrogant on the Internet and fail to see the larger picture and many rarely do research before asking questions on the forums. And everyone thinks their class is the worst and their faction is the unfavored one by Blizz.
    Last edited by Al Gorefiend; 2018-04-06 at 07:37 AM.

  5. #685
    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    lol i want you to speak to the leage community and see if they think the devs include them very highly in the dev process, players first, when skins can cost 300$ and heros constantly come out super over powered first weeks then get mega nerfed once they are reduced in cost.
    mimimi when skins can cost 300$ mimimi

    in a f2p game with 0 disadvantages if you never ever played mimimi

    some people even bitch if stuff is FREE

  6. #686
    Quote Originally Posted by Pencil View Post
    I don't think you need to be a rocket scientist to know that if you're building a game based on the feedback of a cynically negative community, you aren't going to end up with a good game.

    I know that's not really relevant to the thread but it just came to mind.

    But yeh, on topic: I think there's truth in saying cynically negative communities break down communications and basically everything. Unfortunately though, cynical negativity is rife both within and outside of WoW. I'd pretty much say it's all a vast majority of young people know these days. It's no surprise.
    The cynical negativiy is a thing they have bred, though. It's not like they are not receiving constructive, nice-worded criticism at all. People just get tired at some point because every effort they do seems to be wasted. And then dev's complain about things they could have prevented if they have just took a different approach.

  7. #687
    I don't think communication failure is the actual problem. The bigger problem is that the game has incompatible audiences, and Blizzard goes silent to keep stringing along those who it decided to disfavor, to keep them in the dark a bit longer so more money can be extracted before they wise up and quit.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler
    Q: Why was the anti-vaxxer's 4 year old child crying? A: Midlife crisis.

  8. #688
    Quote Originally Posted by TelefonoGatewood View Post
    People quit for all kinds of reasons. It's not really relevant to this discussion.
    You're implying there's a significant number of people quitting due to their communication policy. I very much doubt it's the case.
    How am I implying that when I literally said "It's not a deciding factor"? All I am saying is if I feel the developers do not care about their own product and the people who play it, why should I care?

    And it's a given that people quit for all sorts of reasons. The #1 reason most people I know that have quit was because of Real Life concerns which there is nothing you can really do about that. New job, new baby, relationship aggro, etc. are all outside Blizzard's sphere of control. But people quitting because of apathy is something Blizzard can actually do something to help mitigate. Of course they are not going to be 100% able to prevent that attrition but every subscriber they save is still a subscriber.

    Quote Originally Posted by TelefonoGatewood View Post
    I personally know couple of prominent theorycrafters who got disheartened after trying to communicate using feedback, bugreports and testing. They've quit - but I would never suggest that's a significant number - the actual people affected by their shoddy community management and communication policy is just handful of serious testers anyway.
    And I see that as a problem. If I am going to Theorycrafter X and they have up and quit because Blizzard stopped listening to them, it is a reflection of a problem with Blizzard.

    Patch 7.1.5 was a clear indicator of a problem at Blizzard's end. I remember seeing a large chunk of the class changes in that patch as being something mentioned during Alpha.... and Beta.... and 7.0 on the PTR.... and launch. Hunter traps being one that sticks out. Suddenly, a year later, they're finally listening to the feedback? I don't remember off the top of my head, but I don't think there were many replies to it. And certainly no Dev Water Cooler posts or similar.

    Why not address the concerns in the alpha forums about the over-pruning and the feeling that leveling has become just another time/content gate rather than being a power-up for our characters?

    Quote Originally Posted by TelefonoGatewood View Post
    The big masses crying for "nerfs, buffs and balance" don't really matter because they never really perform any testing, they've no idea how to write actionable feedback and generally don't even have a way to verifiably show the results of their tests (because they don't test).
    And yet Blizzard has allowed them to thrive and, in some cases, encouraged them through hamfisted, and probably bot-driven, enforcement of their forum "rules". For example, I was given a suspension because I dared to complain about the number of threads created by the little children crying for High Elves in the forums. At one point the numerous threads took up about 20% of the topics in General Discussion's first page. And yes, I know GD is one step up from being the septic tank of the WoW Forums. But when I made a post pointing this out, the children reported me and I got suspended for "Trolling/Harassment". I appealed and was told it would stand, my ticket closed on their end, and that any further inquiry into the matter would be ignored (PS: Not a great thing to tell your customers BTW).

    Quote Originally Posted by TelefonoGatewood View Post
    This whole communication breakdown is a small group of people who should be heard - but due to Blizzard acting hamfisted, they get thrown into the same bin as the raving forum masses.
    It's not them being "hamfisted" in that regard, but rather by allowing the crap to go on like that and bury legitimate concerns/feedback/etc. But the thing is, even with that crap flying around, they can still answer it. Take the aforementioned High Elf for Alliance debate. With the numerous threads, how hard is it to put together a post under the larger umbrella of Allied Races and their place in WoW and put the question to rest once and for all? Then the threads can be closed by the forum mods referring folks to those posts and handing out suspensions for those who continue to create new threads.

    Quote Originally Posted by Al Gorefiend View Post
    Give me an example where Blizzard "isn't listening" to the community please.
    Just about every class change in Patch 7.1.5. If you want specifics, Ice Trap being given back to Beast Master and Marksman Hunters. This change was discussed in alpha... in beta... on the PTR when 7.0 hit that... and when Legion launched. A year later Blizzard finally listened as both those specs got Ice Trap and Tar Trap (the aoe slow that replaced Frost Trap) returned to those specs.

    If you want another one, how about the fact that after telling Blizzard that we didn't want to be

    And for bonus... the events leading to #NoFlyNoSub

    Quote Originally Posted by Aevari View Post
    I understand them not replying to threads which don't support the growth of WoW in a positive light, But there are alot of good threads in the forums that don't get recognition when they are generally good discussions going on.

    I don't believe that not engaging with the community because of how some people act in the forums is the best course of action. Community Managers need to step in more and put an end to those types of discussions.
    You hit the nail on the head perfectly here. What is the point of having Community Managers really? Lately the most I've seen of Lore has been hosting duty be it an eSports thing or a Live Q&A. Using MMO-C's Blue Tracker, the last post I was able to find from him was 2 months ago talking about PvP Tuning Changes.

    And when other players step up to the plate, they get suspended for trolling.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aevari View Post
    You'll never be able to please everyone.
    Yup. It's impossible to please 100% of the people all of the time. But it IS possible to please 0% of the people all of the time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aevari View Post
    I admit when I found out on the forums today that devs said they wouldn't be working on new goblin and worgen models I had a good whine about that, but will that stop me from playing the game and enjoying it? No. Did I voice my disappointment hoping that the CMs will forward that through to devs, I sure did -- gosh I hope they collect that feedback other than the positive type because you need both to succeed.
    Exactly. Even if the actual content of your post doesn't make it to them, the CMs should at least be saying "Hey WoW team, there's a big uptick in posts on the forums expressing disappointment in the fact we're not updating Worgen/Goblin models. Is there anything you'd like us to post on the issue?"

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