why "kultiran" and not Vyrkul for the alliance

[Khaza-R]

I would have no problem with Kul Tirans over Vykrul, if Kul Tirans actually looked like Vykrul or a missing link between them.

Currently the Kul Tiran models we've seen look like a half-human, half-ogre hybrid.

[Futhark]

If they made Vrykul Tauren height, everyone that likes Vrykul won't care, and everyone who doesn't like Vrykul will complain they're too short (for petty reasons).

[Korrah]

Or because the vrykuls doesnt use the human skeleton.

[Velerios]

Or because the vrykuls doesnt use the human skeleton.

This is actually the most correct answer to this. Allied race are done because they have all an shared skeleton with one of the existing races. Building a race from ground up takes much much more time than creating an allied race.

[Magnagarde]

Huge humans have been a thing since Warcraft III. Look at characters like the knight units or hell, Garithos himself. And there have been differently sized humans throughout the game (they are just used more rarely these days, but head to Eastern Plaguelands and you'll find at least one of them). Calling this an 'asspull' is ridiculous. It's not even remotely.

And you are doing the same thing. Don't presume to speak for other people. Speak only for yourself. You are disappointed, you didn't expect it, you didn't want it, but that isn't true for others.

You're comparing RTS-based model proportions with proportions in a game that has its own model-size standard for 13 years now and which hasn't changed, untill now. Warcraft III models in no way make this addition more senseful in WoW as these are two completely different genres of games or are you telling me that Jaina is bigger than a cottage(because W3 shows her being bigger) or that several units bigger than a ship they're boarding can board the ship anyway(because W3 clearly shows it to be so).

The original WoW was intended to have humans of different shapes and sizes, but it was ultimately scrapped. Now that they lack inspiration, idea or will to add something senseful, they keep throwing in filler races; the biggest reason behind Kul Tirans being a thing is because the Horde got two orc races.

It isn't true for everyone else indeed, but it is true for a huge part of the playerbase and community, which is reflected upon the fact that so many are either complaining about it or outright ridiculing the addition.

[therealbowser]

I think a good compromise for people who want(ed) vrykul would be Arathi/Arathor humans. Easier said than done lore-wise, but it definitely would appeal to most vrykul fans, which really are more drawn to the Norse/Barbarian aspect of the Vrykul than the large stature.

I'll admit, that is actually pretty cool. I still prefer Kul'tirans, but I'd love if humans were able to get more customization in that way.

- - - Updated - - -

You're comparing RTS-based model proportions with proportions in a game that has its own model-size standard for 13 years now and which hasn't changed, untill now. Warcraft III models in no way make this addition more senseful in WoW as these are two completely different genres of games or are you telling me that Jaina is bigger than a cottage(because W3 shows her being bigger) or that several units bigger than a ship they're boarding can board the ship anyway(because W3 clearly shows it to be so).

The original WoW was intended to have humans of different shapes and sizes, but it was ultimately scrapped. Now that they lack inspiration, idea or will to add something senseful, they keep throwing in filler races; the biggest reason behind Kul Tirans being a thing is because the Horde got two orc races.

It isn't true for everyone else indeed, but it is true for a huge part of the playerbase and community, which is reflected upon the fact that so many are either complaining about it or outright ridiculing the addition.

In other words, if it doesn't support your argument it isn't true:

Obviously Warcraft III models were misproportioned. And no, I'm not talking about building sizes, but rather body shapes. They were just wrong, clearly.
Obviously Blizzard is only adding different race sizes because they lack inspiration, despite the fact this requires far more work.
Obviously everyone feels the same way you do and are not, in fact, a vocal minority.

No, when you feel like actually responding to my points I will show you the same courtesy. Until then there's nothing to discuss because you are ignoring every point that doesn't support your argument. And that's no way to have a discussion, sorry.

[Magnagarde]

In other words, if it doesn't support your argument it isn't true:

Obviously Warcraft III models were misproportioned. And no, I'm not talking about building sizes, but rather body shapes. They were just wrong, clearly.
Obviously Blizzard is only adding different race sizes because they lack inspiration, despite the fact this requires far more work.
Obviously everyone feels the same way you do and are not, in fact, a vocal minority.

No, when you feel like actually responding to my points I will show you the same courtesy. Until then there's nothing to discuss because you are ignoring every point that doesn't support your argument. And that's no way to have a discussion, sorry.

I addressed the only point you made and sank it to the bottom of the e-ocean. You are comparing models between two completely different genres of games. Deathwing was the size of two archers in Warcraft 2; sorry for sinking your arguement yet again.

The only one ignoring "points" here is you, such as ignoring the fact that a huge part of the playerbase and community actually does dislike the Kul Tirans, but I assume you believe it must be me creating all those complaint threads or making all those posts that complaing about it, switching back and forth between my numerous and inexhaustible alts.

[seleri]

Vrykul will be playable at some point so it doesn't really matter in the long run, but I agree that Kul Tiran are disappointing compared to them, at least aesthetically. As far as lore goes, we know next to nothing about the Kul Tiran compared to vrykul right now, though Kul Tiran druid lore and the sea priests seem like it might be interesting.

[bufferunderrun]

all of the alliance races are complete ass pulls with the exception of the dark iron dwarves, void elves and light forged draenei came out of nowhere, no previous lore.. nothing. meanwhile the horde gets the zandalari which we've hear from for years and the nigthborne that had basically half of an expansion expanding and telling their story... Wtf is a void elf... how when and where are light forged draenei made. We get all but a 30 sec intro telling us this. Now we get kultiran human, that has everything to do with the new expansion but nothing to do with the lore before other then jainas people, so if jaina is from kultiras whyisnt she fat like the "kultiran" human model. This all seems very one sided, kinda of frustrating tbh

because vrykul even the most gentle one don't fit the alliance theme, those guys are brutal, merciless, cunning, their society is way more similar to orcs than it's to humans and last vrykul think of human as "defective" products.

Making them bow to anduin like all other alliance races is too much bs even for the pro bullshitters in blizzard story dept, viking bowing their head to the stormwind's hipsters? Keep dreaming.

[Jack Black]

How I and probably many players see Vrykuls:



Meanwhile new Kul Tirasian "strong men":

[Coconut]

Clearly, Shaq was dating a child, then.

There's people of different heights. And different height averages in different nations across the world. Hell, Hafthor Bjornnson (The Mountain of Game of Thrones) is 2 heads shorter than his tallest brother, and 2 heads taller than Lena Headley (Cersei Lannister on Game of Thrones). And you've gotta think that among giant-ass human races there's going to be an even more drastic height difference between the tallest and the shortest based on where they live and what kind of allowances the environment they live in gives for that height.

A Vrykul population living in the Scholazar Basin, with plentiful foods, water, massive predators, and a high Oxygen Content to the air due to the quantity of plants and height at sea level in a sheltered valley, would be taller than those in the Storm Peaks with limited food supplies, limited accessible drinking water, and thinner oxygen Content due to elevation.

But then "Magic" comes into play and fucks science in the butt and none of it makes sense so Short Vrykul can just be short compared to their brothers and still massive to humans because Magic Said So.

Size variation within one population (which you don't see in WoW, you can assume everyone is of average size) is one thing, two populations of different sizes is another. What you're suggesting is that Vrykul should have one population of Shaqs and a different population of Shaq's Girlfriends, and for some reason we would be allowed to play as Shaq's Girlfriend but wouldn't be allowed to play as Shaq.

But size is not the only issue. Blizzard can easily add a "new tribe" that is smaller, just like they retconned Suramar to have Nightborne. The Nightborne are cool, unique and interesting, so they are worth the retcon. Vrykul are not. Here are the main issues:

1. All playable races have their own unique combination of characteristics that defines them as "fantasy" races, and even specifically "Warcraft" races. Vrykul are a bland copy paste of a real world culture, with no deviation other than their height. Sure, you may say you like Vikings, but that doesn't make them any more original. This isn't Civilization or Age of Empires, it's not a game where I want to play as a real world culture. If it is, why not add Ancient Egyptian humans, Mongolian humans, Feudal Japanese humans, Cowboy humans, etc, etc, etc?

2. Part of the fantasy of many races, especially in the Horde, is that they are "large", particularly larger than humans, since this is a frame of reference that is easy to understand regardless of "canonical" sizes one may glean from Wowpedia. The fantasy of an Orc is that of a warmongering barbarian that is bigger and bulkier than a human. Having a playable human (in everything but name) that is a warmongering barbarian bigger and bulkier than an Orc dilutes the fantasy of both orcs and humans, because whichever of the two you play, you would feel "less" compared to a Vrykul. People who chose to make Tauren and Trolls (I can attest for the latter) also wouldn't like to suddenly bow before people playing this Human model 2.0.

So it's not just the lore height... if it's just one thing, it may be worth trying to make it work, but Vrykul are problematic from at least three perspectives.

Yeah, I understand that Alliance players have a great desire to play humans that could punt an Orc and headbutt a Tauren. Alliance players always want superlatives and they always want to shit on the Horde like nobody plays it. They want the largest playable race in the game to be a giant human. They want to play the prettiest hum... sorry, elves, in the game, but they must absolutely have human-colored skin or they will act like they were slapped in the face. And if they get burly humans with a unique and interesting culture and deep roots in lore, then it's suddenly too many humans and you'll see them bawling like children while at the same time engaging in an absolutely disgusting campaign of fat shaming the new race and anyone who likes it.

So maybe the desire for Vrykul should NOT be satisfied, because it comes from a place that is just as shallow as the race itself.

If they made Vrykul Tauren height, everyone that likes Vrykul won't care, and everyone who doesn't like Vrykul will complain they're too short (for petty reasons).

Another way to put that is that people who obsessively want something are ready to make silly or unreasonable concessions, while people who don't share their obsession are not.

[Techno-Druid]

Size variation within one population (which you don't see in WoW, you can assume everyone is of average size) is one thing, two populations of different sizes is another. What you're suggesting is that Vrykul should have one population of Shaqs and a different population of Shaq's Girlfriends, and for some reason we would be allowed to play as Shaq's Girlfriend but wouldn't be allowed to play as Shaq.

You seem to be overly fixated on height, something vrykul fans don't really care about. You care about consistency and I do as well, but I don't consider the height of a race that has never had a stated height (other than Cairne stating they were taller than tauren) to be breaking consistency. I consider it on par with remodeling playable races that had different NPC models (.i.e. nightborne, worgen).

But size is not the only issue. Blizzard can easily add a "new tribe" that is smaller, just like they retconned Suramar to have Nightborne. The Nightborne are cool, unique and interesting, so they are worth the retcon. Vrykul are not. Here are the main issues:

Your opinion, I personally find them very cool.

1. All playable races have their own unique combination of characteristics that defines them as "fantasy" races, and even specifically "Warcraft" races. Vrykul are a bland copy paste of a real world culture, with no deviation other than their height. Sure, you may say you like Vikings, but that doesn't make them any more original.

Pandaren are based on China, Han Chinese specifically and sure you could make the argument that they also take from Chinese ethnic groups in China not traditionally considered Han Chinese (Tibetans, Uyghurs and Miao people for example).

And what about tauren? You can literally pinpoint which Native American cultures which each tauren race is culturally based on. Tauren from Kalimdor being based off the Plains Tribes in the Midwest, taunka being based off the Canadian First Nations and the Highmountain tauren being based off the Pacific Northwest tribes.

This isn't Civilization or Age of Empires, it's not a game where I want to play as a real world culture. If it is, why not add Ancient Egyptian humans, Mongolian humans, Feudal Japanese humans, Cowboy humans, etc, etc, etc?

To date, we have African humans from Stranglethorn in the shape of Makasa along with her brothers Adashe, Akashinga and Amahle (although their ancestry is supposedly Stromic, so I have to question whether humans are as adaptable as orcs and trolls). Arab humans in the shape of the Wastewander Bandits formerly led by a Caliph.

This is of course ignoring the Native American tauren, Samurai Burning Blade and the Chinese pandaren.

2. Part of the fantasy of many races, especially in the Horde, is that they are "large", particularly larger than humans, since this is a frame of reference that is easy to understand regardless of "canonical" sizes one may glean from Wowpedia.

Tauren are really the only race that are any part defined by height to the point where Baine points this out in the tauren starting zone. Orcs have always been portrayed as only slightly taller than humans outside of the non-canon Warcraft Movie and trolls, while being slightly shorter or in the case of Zandalari on par with tauren, have never been defined by height.

The fantasy of an Orc is that of a warmongering barbarian that is bigger and bulkier than a human. Having a playable human (in everything but name) that is a warmongering barbarian bigger and bulkier than an Orc dilutes the fantasy of both orcs and humans, because whichever of the two you play, you would feel "less" compared to a Vrykul. People who chose to make Tauren and Trolls (I can attest for the latter) also wouldn't like to suddenly bow before people playing this Human model 2.0.

Point to me where my Norse orcs are? Oh wait, there really aren't any. Orcs borrow from the Huns, Mongols, Turks and various shamanistic cultures, but don't overlap with the Norse is any (noticable) ways. Additionally having multiple barbarian races doesn't dilute the fantasy of orcs in the same way having draenei or nightborne or any race with a high culture and advanced civilization doesn't dilute the fantasy of blood elves. They're different races with different cultures.


You also seem to be under the impression that vrykul are a better form of human, which is not true. Humans will always be popular in fantasy because they're more diverse, vrykul as much as I like them, pail in comparison to what humans (and orcs) in Warcraft can be.

Yeah, I understand that Alliance players have a great desire to play humans that could punt an Orc and headbutt a Tauren.

Well you have to admit, that would be pretty awesome to see.

Alliance players always want superlatives and they always want to shit on the Horde like nobody plays it.

Or they just want a race of barbaric half-giants...not everything is Horde vs Alliance.

They want the largest playable race in the game to be a giant human. They want to play the prettiest hum... sorry, elves, in the game, but they must absolutely have human-colored skin or they will act like they were slapped in the face.

You really think vrykul are pretty? Lol. You're really missing the appeal of vrykul to many people who want them.

People want vrykul and ogres because aside from being badass, they invert the factions while also being familiar. Vrykul represent a barbarian race but one that could fit in the Alliance aesthetically. They're not just humans in orc transmog. Same applies for (Gorian) ogres, they're a high culture, but only one that could be forged in the harsh environment of Draenor. They're not just orcs in belf or human transmog.

[Coconut]

You seem to be overly fixated on height, something vrykul fans don't really care about. You care about consistency and I do as well, but I don't consider the height of a race that has never had a stated height (other than Cairne stating they were taller than tauren) to be breaking consistency. I consider it on par with remodeling playable races that had different NPC models (.i.e. nightborne, worgen).

I am not fixated with height, as I went on to explain in the very post you quoted. A height change would be fine for Ogres, because they have plenty of other defining characteristics. But for Vrykul, height is the ONE DISTINCTIVE CHARACTERISTIC that sets them apart from vikings and humans in general.

And you really need to stop with this unmitigated bullshit about "stated height". Come on! I don't give a flying rat's ass what their "stated height" is. Their relative height compared to other playable races is extremely evident in game. Every single WoW player who leveled through Stormheim and goes there to do his dailies can already tell how tall Vrykul are. That's years of immersion waved away because their height wasn't precisely stated in some obscure book.

Changing a model is not the same thing, that's done to keep up with graphics or give a race more depth. The height change you are so ready to accept is entirely self-serving.

Pandaren are based on China, Han Chinese specifically and sure you could make the argument that they also take from Chinese ethnic groups in China not traditionally considered Han Chinese (Tibetans, Uyghurs and Miao people for example).

And what about tauren? You can literally pinpoint which Native American cultures which each tauren race is culturally based on. Tauren from Kalimdor being based off the Plains Tribes in the Midwest, taunka being based off the Canadian First Nations and the Highmountain tauren being based off the Pacific Northwest tribes.

To date, we have African humans from Stranglethorn in the shape of Makasa along with her brothers Adashe, Akashinga and Amahle (although their ancestry is supposedly Stromic, so I have to question whether humans are as adaptable as orcs and trolls). Arab humans in the shape of the Wastewander Bandits formerly led by a Caliph.

This is of course ignoring the Native American tauren, Samurai Burning Blade and the Chinese pandaren.

There's always some real world inspiration in fantasy. I said as much in a different thread on the same subject. But at some point the similarities stop, they are combined with other concepts, and something original emerges. First and foremost, the Pandaren, the Tauren and the Burning Blade ARE NOT HUMANS. Then, their cultures and histories are quite different once you get beyond the borrowed aesthetics.

The Pandaren don't really parallel the Chinese with the continent shrouded in mists, giant turtle island, their history with the Sha and their love for food and beer. The Tauren don't parallel the plight of the Native American tribes, and they avoid many stereotypes about "Indians" - they don't take scalps, they don't use smoke signals, they don't dance around fires, Tauren females are never called squaws, etc. They also embrace anachronistic technology (Tauren warriors are often shown in full plate armor) and some aesthetic elements are creatively changed - Tauren carry totem poles on their backs and use them as weapons.

With Vrykul, though, the similarities just keep going on and on and on. They are vikings all the way, except that they are giant. You may say it's cool, but it's painfully unoriginal.

Just look at the backstory of Highmountain versus Stormheim. Huln Highmountain fought against the Legion during the first invasion, his horns were a blessing from Cenarius, then he chased Deathwing from his lands, helped free the Drogbar and rescued a black dragon from corruption, which became his family's advisor. There's no Pacific Northwest here, it's all Warcraft lore. Stormheim on the other hand just parallels a bunch of stuff from Norse mythology. Odyn is Odin, Helya is Hel, Halls of Valor are Valhalla, Val'kyr are valkyries, Helheim is the realm Hel within Nifleheim, Huginn and Muninn are Odin's ravens, Havi is another name for Odin, etc, etc... DO YOU GET ALL THE REFERENCES, GUYS??

Point to me where my Norse orcs are? Oh wait, there really aren't any. Orcs borrow from the Huns, Mongols, Turks and various shamanistic cultures, but don't overlap with the Norse is any (noticable) ways. Additionally having multiple barbarian races doesn't dilute the fantasy of orcs in the same way having draenei or nightborne or any race with a high culture and advanced civilization doesn't dilute the fantasy of blood elves. They're different races with different cultures.

You also seem to be under the impression that vrykul are a better form of human, which is not true. Humans will always be popular in fantasy because they're more diverse, vrykul as much as I like them, pail in comparison to what humans (and orcs) in Warcraft can be.

The similarities go beyond just "barbarian race". They both have a culture of proving themselves in battle. They are both large and brawny and have a "Hulk smash" feel to them. Their armors and weapons are somewhat similar... But Vrykul also have the seafaring theme, and they look like Humans, which a lot of people like, and they have their own version of the Light theme, except it's somehow even more specific and defined.

Yup. Vrykul are the mega version of Orcs and Humans combined. This makes them a great opponent to face (I suspect back in Wrath this was the idea - Vrykul were menacing because they had the best of both main Horde and Alliance races), but not so much a good playable race.

I don't buy your BS about humans being popular because they are diverse, Warcraft humans are hardly diverse. They are popular because we are humans and it's the easiest race to identify with. If you give a player who is not that invested in lore the choice between a larger human and a smaller human, though, why not take the larger one? Maybe Vrykul are the "real" humans that we should be identifying with, and the old humans are some weird midget pixies or something.

Well you have to admit, that would be pretty awesome to see.

I'm sure that's what what Alliance players dream of. They are an odd and insecure bunch.

You really think vrykul are pretty? Lol. You're really missing the appeal of vrykul to many people who want them.

People want vrykul and ogres because aside from being badass, they invert the factions while also being familiar. Vrykul represent a barbarian race but one that could fit in the Alliance aesthetically. They're not just humans in orc transmog. Same applies for (Gorian) ogres, they're a high culture, but only one that could be forged in the harsh environment of Draenor. They're not just orcs in belf or human transmog.

Oh, please! That's why so many people whined recently that they wanted Vrykul instead of Kul'tirans, because they wanted a barbarian race, bless their sweet little hearts. It had nothing to do with wanting fit, sexy models over "fat" ones. No, nothing at all! Vrykul men look like Khal Drogo and Vrykul women look like Lagertha from Vikings or Angelina Jolie in her youth, but NOPE! THAT'S NOT WHY WE WANT THEM, THEY ARE NOT PRETTY, LOL! #BARBARIAN RACE! /sigh...

How about Alliance getting Ogres, hmm? I wouldn't call them a high culture exactly, more like entitled, imperialistic shits, just like the Alliance. Other than that, they are pretty brutal and unsophisticated, so they would be a neat thematic inversion while still matching politically with the faction. Wouldn't that be cool? Or is it a bad idea because they're fat and ugly, and the Horde should be getting that?

[Edgekidxxx]

Because no matter what you ppl get, you complain

It's true, oh it's true.