How 'Casualization' Is Saving WoW For Raiders

[Enrif]

i'm actually against forced personal loot.

but personal loot is unbiased and blind to the needs of others. It is fair, as everyone has the same chances to get upgrades. And no one has to forfeit their reward so someone else can benefit of your work, for no compensation in return. And that you may get the loot a week later is also not a given, maybe it's in 5 weeks, or more, or never, because the raid moved on or stopped or you got put out because your numbers were to low, caused by the lack of loot you would have gotten. This is not fair.

Master Loot, in and of itself is not bad either. The use of it is. Especially with loot prioritization to people who "benefit" the raid most. Which is also a biased term. Does it benefit the raid if the top dps can get a 1% increase, or if the lowest DPS gets a 50% increase? What if this 1% = to the 50%? Who Benefits more to the raid? Does is benefit the raid more if the oldest members receive loot first, or the new guys who are better players?

There are so many things to consider. And as long as humans intervene it's rarely fair.


The fairest way would be by not giving loot at all. Just a currency everyone gets equally and the loot can be bought from a vendor.

BUT, this would also be the most boring way. Getting a piece of loots which is a great upgrade is always a better feeling for the player then just buying a piece from a vendor

[Alkizon]

Firstly. It's not casualization, it all works much easier, you don't need to artificially complicate company's marketing policy. Perhaps you don't have enough experience, or maybe just a vocabulary to expresses idea correctly.

Secondly. Changing loot policy is only consequences of previous innovations, which by definition were also incorrect. Starting from different cross-realm stuff/phasing introduction and ending with lvl-scaling (you can read more at the same link above, but in links there). Personal loot is apotheosis of tragedy in terms of healthy psychology in the game, ascertaining its destruction. Community will be even more fragmented on such terms (I already said about that this is a consequence of previous changes, this is the same direction, nothing has changed since then), even less education of trust, even less social interaction, even less friendly relationships. - You can't experience the world sitting in a room without windows and doors. You can't experience feelings without being open to them, yes, it can be painful, but still it's how we learn and that's the only way to make friends.

Total individualization of gameplay, full control over ability of players to make a free choice (exclusion this from all gameplay capabilities), absolute intolerance to any opportunity "for creativity/learning mistakes" presence.

Don't need to be mistaken, there is no casualization, only sales, only streamlining = linearization gameplay and design => More money for less work to devs.

I would gladly accept guildmasters' decision like "guild will ceased to take someone alien with them" (someone except guildmembers) because of previous change iteration. And then we could see who'll have last laugh It at least would provokes wrong system back to self-regulation (cycle will closed), but I'm afraid that this part of gaming community is already degenerate and such company's decisions only convince in it even more. This decision just wrong from viewpoint of healthy game design, but this is just consequence, no more, no less.

ps. Back to the roots, back to the basic game rules, they must.

[ceall]

So after all, it's just another "no more master looter" thread.

From what I understood, Blizz likes personal loot more than master loot BUT, BIG BUT they won't remove it. They said it should be the preferred loot method, but they did not say, it's going to be the ONLY loot method.

And with re-introduction of weapons, azerite gear being our new "tier sets", accessories being a big impact on player stats and trinkets still being a big factor, I can still see like every single serious mythic raiding guild to still use master loot going forward.

[crusadernero]

They just need to bring badge gear back. Personal and Master is irrelevant. The real problem is both systems are just different ways to roll the dice, when what the game needs is some sort of 'sure fire' way to earn upgrades by doing the content. At least, to a certain 'default' point the harder content is tuned around.

I liked how GW2 did this, where running X dungeon gave you that X dungeon's 'tokens' per boss killed, and if you got extremely unlucky with a drop you want you can go to a vendor after 3-4 runs and get that one item. For stats, or transmog. It's a really nice system to complement the random drops. I've no idea why WoW dropped it.

Yeah the badge system was perfect. Even if I didnt get any loot from the raid/Dungeon, I would get badges knowing that eventually I could get the item(s) I desired.

So weird that they removed it.

[Kakera]

Uninstall please thanks.

[Keltas]

Yeah the badge system was perfect. Even if I didnt get any loot from the raid/Dungeon, I would get badges knowing that eventually I could get the item(s) I desired.

So weird that they removed it.

Because then people could get what they want instead of the casino gambling high from getting the RNG drop version.

Gotta keep people leashed with shitty tactics instead of making the game fun at it's core.

[Sencha]

That's just the opposite but nice try.

[crusadernero]

Because then people could get what they want instead of the casino gambling high from getting the RNG drop version.

Gotta keep people leashed with shitty tactics instead of making the game fun at it's core.

I suppose alot of people get hooked and keeps farming content and pray to the RNG gods that THIS run i'll get the item. Personally I dont get hooked on it, I find it just plain boring.

I have just unsubbed and will be unsubbed until BfA comes out. This RNG nonsense is not for me, not on this big scale.

[Emerald Archer]

The unfortunate truth is that there is no way any one person or group of people (a loot council in this case) can know for certain that this X piece of loot is going to benefit the raid the most by going to Y player. It is just impossible. You can't simply go by "well X piece of loot is going to be the largest percentage dps increase for this person, so it should go to them". There are things such as player performance, how useful that particular class/spec is going to be for upcoming fights, player latency, etc.... All of these things make it impossible to 100% "fairly" distribute loot, and this is the case in casual guilds as well as the top guilds in the world.

Personal loot will still allow the top 1% to really allocate their loot how they see fit by running splits (cloth/leather/mail/plate splits), while also providing a much, much fairer loot system to the rest of the raiders. So when that guy who is consistently putting up those grey parses gets a super titanforged trinket, he'll get it from a 100% rng system, not because he's friends with the raid leader.

There isn't a way to know 100% what will benefit the team the absolute most, but you get as close as you can. It isn't just "best player OR highest % upgrade" there's a mix of both that goes into it. And ofc there's potential for it to not be the best possible decision, but any reasonable person knows that the person in charge is doing the best they can as a human.

But the last part, about the loot bias cause of RL, shouldn't come into it. That is a clear negative of the loot system, not what it's primarily used for, but a poor outcome that can happen if you have a bad leadership.

It seems to me that you've had some loot bias issues in the past, that's the only reason I can think you'd bring that up.

[kamuimac]

They just need to bring badge gear back. Personal and Master is irrelevant. The real problem is both systems are just different ways to roll the dice, when what the game needs is some sort of 'sure fire' way to earn upgrades by doing the content. At least, to a certain 'default' point the harder content is tuned around.

I liked how GW2 did this, where running X dungeon gave you that X dungeon's 'tokens' per boss killed, and if you got extremely unlucky with a drop you want you can go to a vendor after 3-4 runs and get that one item. For stats, or transmog. It's a really nice system to complement the random drops. I've no idea why WoW dropped it.

to force people into raiding

that was the only reason because they realised there are milions of players out there with 0 interest for raiding so they tried to force them in there - this is why we had WoD where there was literaly nothing to do but raid - and people still didnt raid.

badge/jp/ vp gear should be brought back into game asap which is proven by how vigorously people farm essences for legendaries.

people need their easy farms - thats what gets them off.

[Deleted]

Hardcore raiders should go Classic anyway, where you can still farm 40 man raids for months and not get any gear upgrades at all.

[Emerald Archer]

to force people into raiding

that was the only reason because they realised there are milions of players out there with 0 interest for raiding so they tried to force them in there - this is why we had WoD where there was literaly nothing to do but raid - and people still didnt raid.

badge/jp/ vp gear should be brought back into game asap which is proven by how vigorously people farm essences for legendaries.

people need their easy farms - thats what gets them off.

I think a combination of both is perfect, 100% bring back some sort of vp stuff, but also have some unlimited farm content. But that box can be ticked with just m+ imo.

[Detheavn]

Your first paragraph is the essential problem. People misunderstand that there is so little to gain from nolifing in WoW as it currently is.
Bob the no life can run 24/7 mythic + dungeons and raids currently have 974-980 ilvl with 82-85 traits.
Daniel the mythic raider runs guild raids 10-15 hours a week at best and does the mythic 15 cache and has 970-980 ilvl with 80 traits.

Power difference? Non consecuential, since WoW dps efficiency relies 70% of proc chances, daniel and bob will do the same amount of damage.

Joe the casual runs LFR and some mythic +, LFR alone between queues and other factors can take almost the same amount of time a mythic raider does his progression content (even less on farm) and probably does mythic 10-15's. Has around 950-970 ilvl and 78 traits. Joe the casual meets daniel or bob and does half the damage with relatively similar ilvl gear because gear has been funneled to him by mythic cache system, making him clear content by outgearing it, and he never cared about actually learning his class.

I believe, just the way "hardcore" players, real ones, dont care about casuals, casuals should not care about hardcore players. They play very different games, and if casuals feel their ego is being hurt because people who do harder things have better stuff, then he/she should get up from their golden toilet of entitlement and learn that more dedication is rewarded with better things.

You started off making a good point, but then (sadly) assumed casuals are bad

But really, I do agree. This door swings both ways though. Loads of times you see people geared in hc/mythic raids which terribly underperform. This could mean they've been boosted, paid or unpaind, or they simply don't care about some of the content, but need to get their quick hc dungeon done for their essences or need that +15 for their chest. You could say the same here then: If people do not care about casuals, or trivial content, then for the love of everybody's enjoyment... stop doing it.

I'm pretty sure the amount of casuals really caring about the hardcore playerbase is very low, just like the hardcore playerbase caring about the casuals. The most vocal people seem to be people who assume they are 'hardcore' or just trolls, and we are letting them get the better of us :|

[Emerald Archer]

Hardcore raiders should go Classic anyway, where you can still farm 40 man raids for months and not get any gear upgrades at all.

Hmm I think you're mistaking your groups there. Hardcore doesn't = enjoyers of classic.

[MyndZero]

If you think master loot is the worst system in all of WoW, then you're probably someone that doesn't join a guild, and keeps socializing with other players to a bare minimum.

A mod should close this thread, because OP has no idea what the heck his on about.

[Wilfire]

ITT: people who don't understand how Blizzard tunes the game.

If they force personal loot, they will tune the raids to account for the fact that loot distribution will be random rather than optimal. With the new tuning, you won't even notice any changes in your progression. This change saves time and reduces drama.

If you want to drool for 20 minutes over a boss' loot table while the officers argue who that sick trinket should go to instead of spending that time PLAYING the raid, you are, quite frankly, an idiot.

If you think that master loot doesn't breed resentment and apathy, you are either playing dumb or being completely ignorant. I don't know which is worse.

[Gaidax]

I was with OP until he started harping about Master Loot out of blue.

IMO, game should be casual, casuals do carry the game, I am pro LFR and pro pet battles and shit even if I don't do this, but at the same time I think that there should be limit to cuddling and I also do not see master loot as some sort of issue. It was with us forever and unlike back in TBC where ninjaing was a thing, it is almost non-existent now simply because it's not worth you - you are showered by gear anyway, so what's the point of that?

Master loot or not should be a player choice, at least at highest tier of raiding.

[kamuimac]

There isn't a way to know 100% what will benefit the team the absolute most, but you get as close as you can. It isn't just "best player OR highest % upgrade" there's a mix of both that goes into it. And ofc there's potential for it to not be the best possible decision, but any reasonable person knows that the person in charge is doing the best they can as a human.

But the last part, about the loot bias cause of RL, shouldn't come into it. That is a clear negative of the loot system, not what it's primarily used for, but a poor outcome that can happen if you have a bad leadership.

It seems to me that you've had some loot bias issues in the past, that's the only reason I can think you'd bring that up.

and nobody is discussing it - why do you people keep brining this argument when everybody agrees with you about its convinience ?

even devs argree that is most convinient gearing up method - to the point that its too convinient artificially making progression faster

thats why they remove it - because you went with it too far making raids look to trivial

[Sunderella]

I honestly dont think there is anything wrong with the Master Loot. All the guilds I have raided with over the years gave the items to the players that would benefit the most. Everybody acknowledged, agreed and respected that. Never ever did I see any loot drama except for the rare special snowflake that would not accept it.

[Deleted]

How 'Casualization' is Saving WoW For Raiders Whether They Understand It Or Not.

For years Blizzard has listened to the 'hardcore' fanbase (they aren't actually hardcore), which resented at every opportunity like the Immovable Object itself, Blizzard even developing casual content. Every time this happened from the fishing Artifact to the implementation of Pet Battles, Old World level scaling. These changes don't ever effect the ""Hardcore"" player base, they they complained still, yelled at Blizzard "Why are you doing this?".

As someone who started playing WoW in Vanilla who has played long enough, and is old enough to know Vanilla was extremely casual friendly (and also dogshit as an MMO), I have seen the highs and the lows, and also seen Blizzard listening to this extremely vocal minority. In fact whole expansions launched such as Cataclysm, on the basis that people didn't want the casual content in WotLK (despite H LK at the time was probably the hardest raid boss ever designed, not just in WoW but ANY MMO at the time). What happened? The userbase died.

We've gone from Hellfire Citadel in WoD to the Emerald Nightmare when people complained again that it was too easy, then they made Nighthold, and Tomb and guilds were dying in droves.

With the insane demands of it's phantom playerbase, Blizzard started to cannibalize the healthy lifecycle of the WoW guilds and their actual customer base. The hard truth is that without casuals, there is no WoW. Without casual guilds acting as feeder guilds to raiding guilds, there are no raiding guilds. People fail to realize this, and now are digging their heels and screaming at the top of their lungs as Blizzard reverses the years long deathknell for the WoW community. Firstly by killing master loot, which only leads an unlevel, and unfair system. There is no system in WoW of tackling loot which is fair, and drama free besides Personal Loot. Master Loot exists to create imbalances, either by funneling gear overtly or subversively to people.

Master-Loot Is The Worst System In All of WoW
The Only Thing It Is Good At Is Being The Single Largest Source of Misery In This Game

Every system derived out of Master Loot from DKP, to Loot Council, to GDKP, to Sell Runs are all inherently toxic and the only result from these systems is to breed abuse, nepotism, and greed, there is no ethical way to use Master Loot, at all. This is self-evident from how decades later, no one can create a way to make Master Loot even sort of resemble 'fairness'.

Coupled with the overworld changes, people are leveling characters again, they are meeting each other, adding each other to Battle Tag, grouping with each other. Some of these people will even play together long term, joining guilds or creating them, and this all happens organically and naturally, and this is the crucial structure of WoW at the moment, the ability to take a new player or a casual player and grow them into a raider. That system was lately interrupted through WoD, and most of Legion. This isn't an outsider speaking, this is from the perspective of a Mythic raider with the sense enough to see beyond the bubble of their own guild.

Because of casual players, WoW is alive again, people are playing this game, making friends, joining guilds, and soon in BfA the horrendous, guild-destroying, zero-positive system of Master Loot will also be gone. Now those players will not have that wedge drawn between them over something as stupid as purple pixels which the loot-mongering of Master Loot created.

Casuals are saving WoW. It's too bad that most ""Hardcore"" players do not have a broad enough perspective to understand that. I hope, like I think many others hope, that Blizzard continues to do what it is doing, that it has the guts to tell this over-active, narrow-viewed audience that what they want is not good for WoW as a whole, that what they in fact want will only lead to more dead guilds, more canceled accounts, more dead realms. Ultimately the people they hurt the most with their hatred of the casual playerbase is themselves.

People have forgotten how WoW being much more casual and accessible than its competition was what made it so popular to start with.
Inevitably, this game will one day decline. But of course, those that hate the game for some inexplicable reason will always sit nearby, ready to shout at the slightest indication of lowering numbers, so that they may prophecises the end of WoW.