Possible Antorus nerfs?

[Gaidax]

Prydaz isn't bad, but quite often it just pads the numbers - absorbing damage that would have been easily healed through, while not helping during the actually dangerous parts. It won't really help if an additional Aggramar add gets through, since it's a huge burst of damage combined with a nasty dot.

Plus unless people somehow synchronize their Prydaz (-es? -i?), you'll just have some random player take less damage during random moment.

I actually disagree with this a lot. Prydaz is one thing that people who struggle on boss should always consider because that shield can and does save people and if everyone has it some fuckups can be recovered simply by the grace of the fact that it will proc on a good chunk of people in raid and help healers keep up.

If someone is genuinely dying a lot, he should wear it.

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I've seen several 9/11 and 10/11 guilds fold on my server recently. The only good side is the 11/11 guilds can pick their best players to enhance the roster for BFA, but still lots of these players are tired, burnt out, and uninterested in continuing playing. I don't think this is good for game health, because diminishing the number of middle of the pack mythic guilds helps in the short run but hurts a lot in the long run, can even kill a smaller server, depleting its recruitment pool. Legion has been a "medium pop server killer" from mythic guild standpoint, some medium sized servers like Sylvanas EU or Frostmane EU are going downhill because Legion decimated mythic raiding scene with its design - short gaps between tiers, mandatory grinds, nerfs coming very late after guilds were stuck on "brick walls" for months, higher effort required to maintain offspec or alt, add it all up and you see people signing out.

You can't really expect from run the mill no. 2000 guild to play at the level of Method, or even world top 100. If you tell them "git gud or get out", they take the second option and unsub.

Thing is you don't need to play at a level of Method to down this boss and honestly I still happen to see too much bullshit how WoW is easy and all, so there - let's have 2 bosses out of 11 that are not falling over by the usual derping your face over damage and healing abilities real hard and require a bit extra work.

Those who can't kill it - can keep farming first 9, because that's what they can do. As for 11/11 guilds, same logic applies really - we have 11/11 and I log in just to raid one night a week or Alpha nowadays. It is the end of expansion and there is genuinely nothing left to do anyway, whether you are 9/11, 10/11 or 11/11. Heck, I'd say 9/11 guys at least have something to shoot for, 11/11? Weekly mount roll pretty much for those who still don't have it.

[Jujudrood]

I still think Blizz should (and should always) implement the zone debuff on the final raid of an xpac, every xpac, like what they did in ICC.
What was it? 30% reduced boss health/damage? Something like that.
With 4 months to go, and a pre-path probably happening in 2-2.5 months, just zone-wide nerf it.
If people are that butthurt over it because "scrubs" are getting their cutting edge, who cares? There's a date stamp on it.
Fucking drop Velen or DiamonDorf at the entrance, give a buff called 'Velen's Hymn' or some silly shit, and be done with it.
If there are "manly men" out there who don't need no stinkin' buff, then give the same option like in ICC where you talk to homie and disable it.

The raid is old and tired now, let people finish it and move on with happier memories than "wiped for the 500th time on Aggramar... fml".

[Hypasonic]

I still think Blizz should (and should always) implement the zone debuff on the final raid of an xpac, every xpac, like what they did in ICC.
What was it? 30% reduced boss health/damage? Something like that.
With 4 months to go, and a pre-path probably happening in 2-2.5 months, just zone-wide nerf it.
If people are that butthurt over it because "scrubs" are getting their cutting edge, who cares? There's a date stamp on it.
Fucking drop Velen or DiamonDorf at the entrance, give a buff called 'Velen's Hymn' or some silly shit, and be done with it.
If there are "manly men" out there who don't need no stinkin' buff, then give the same option like in ICC where you talk to homie and disable it.

The raid is old and tired now, let people finish it and move on with happier memories than "wiped for the 500th time on Aggramar... fml".

Exactly this, I want to do mythic on my alts and a zone wide nerf would just make it that much easier, as it has done in every other end tier in the past expansions.

[Khallid]

We've been on aggramar since. Our problem originally was our blood DKs. We went through 5 different people doing the job and them all fucking it up horribly. When we didn't extend we would get 2~3 hours on aggramar a week, and when we did extend it was just hours of DKs fucking up constantly and occasional stupid deaths. We got it to <10% so many times and every time someone would grip a fucking add and blow everyone up, or flare the add pile because "muh dps".

If DKs didn't dictate 90% of this fight, I bet a lot of guilds like mine would've killed it months ago before they burned out. Now I bet a lot of guilds are like mine, they burned out and there is literally nobody to recruit.

I'm really sick of not clearing this place because of having to rely on one person not being garbage at their job.

I agree with the issue of a single class being necessary and making or breaking the boss. All you can do is stand there and watch it fail. It seems a bit weird that they don't improve though. After a large number of wipes you usually memorize every single thing that is going to happen and how to deal with it. How are those DKs so bad that they can't learn? I'm also surprised you mention dps fucking it up for the sake of parses. Seems unusual for a mythic group that they don't understand that is a bad thing to do.

[Marrilaife]

I still happen to see too much bullshit how WoW is easy and all, so there - let's have 2 bosses out of 11 that are not falling over by the usual derping your face over damage and healing abilities real hard and require a bit extra work.

And the "WOW is too easy bullshit" will never be eradicated, people were spouting this crap even when early mythic KJ was "mathematically impossible" according to Method and Exorsus. People will always say so, they whine levelling is too easy, Blizzard nerfs low level players, then they still cry now that it's too long. Most of those whiners never participate in any challenging content, quit 3 expansions ago but still feel they're entitled to their opinion, because "they saw someone do it on a stream" or whatever other reasoning. Like for example Mionee solos +15, omg mythic+ is too easy!

Easy / hard is an opinion. Guilds disbanding because they spent a month on a boss and went nowhere is a fact. Now would they continue playing if the boss was nerfed, that's a speculation. But the mount is at least some incentive. What incentive people have to continue if they spent weeks on Aggramar / Argus, had people quit, replaced them with the new, retrained them, reprogressed the boss, more people quit and officers are getting fed up with endless cycle and no results?

Logging once per week to kill Argus for the mount guarantees you stay subbed. People who are stuck on Aggramar / Argus... some of them really want to get that kill, some are just out of patience and unsub, so guilds are folding, and then the people who still want to get the kill have to join different guilds, that maybe used different strat, relearn everything, maybe it will click together maybe it won't...

[kamuimac]

Honestly that's the most obvious change they could implement. But there are probably a few specs that would be completely overpowered with the third legendary (while some specs will deal with Prydaz because they don't have anything more interesting to equip), and I think it would definitely break the Mythic+ thing, unless they go through another round of balance of dungeons to avoid people casually running 20s without sweating

who cares if that happens ? qualifications for MDI are on separate realms which can still keep limit of 2 legendaries and for everyone else ? prepatch is coming in 3 months expansion is over so who cares at this point

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Exactly this, I want to do mythic on my alts and a zone wide nerf would just make it that much easier, as it has done in every other end tier in the past expansions.

true but wouldnt you being equiped in full orange even if it would be for 1 month be so much cooler ?

[Jastall]

Clearly an alt. I don't think it takes too much thinking to comprehend that I couldn't raid with a demon hunter prior to legion.

Cutting Edge is a Feat of Strength, and visible on any character on your account. All you got pre Legion, where you haven't even stepped foot into Mythic, is AOTC in Hellfire Citadel (same day as Time is a Flat Circle which smells like being carried) so that means you haven't raiding the highest tier of difficulty at a serious level since early Mists at least.

I don't think that means your opinion is invalid, but cut the bullshit. You simply have not experienced what raiding at the highest level is nowadays.

[Hypasonic]

true but wouldnt you being equiped in full orange even if it would be for 1 month be so much cooler ?

Yeah, although that would be kinda game-breaking xd. Maybe they could allow us to equip 1 extra legendary per week upto the expansion, but obviously only allow us to wear 2 above 110.

[KaPe]

Yeah, although that would be kinda game-breaking xd. Maybe they could allow us to equip 1 extra legendary per week upto the expansion, but obviously only allow us to wear 2 above 110.

Dark Legacy did a comic about that and knowing Blizzard, that's exactly how they would handle it.

[kamuimac]

Yeah, although that would be kinda game-breaking xd. Maybe they could allow us to equip 1 extra legendary per week upto the expansion, but obviously only allow us to wear 2 above 110.

in 2 months when prepatch hits you will be doin 2k dps or 5k dps

it wont matter either way it will feel shit regardless of how broken it would be

it would give people something to do in that time - they woudl farm the f... out of essences if they had clear goal in sight

[Hypasonic]

in 2 months when prepatch hits you will be doin 2k dps or 5k dps

it wont matter either way it will feel shit regardless of how broken it would be

it would give people something to do in that time - they woudl farm the f... out of essences if they had clear goal in sight

Knowing blizzard, since we rarely get "stuff for free" they'll add some sort of legendary upgrade item instead. Maybe the pantheon upgrade items could be used to upgrade existing legendaries in some way.

[T87]

I'm raiding mythic with 2 guilds, and one of my guilds just got mythic aggramar down this week for the first time.

A big issue with guilds on our level is time. Time for progression vs. Farming. One of my guilds still on mythic aggramar only raids 6h a week, meaning if we do decide to farm, we get minimum time on progression. We don't struggle to the transition at all, but still struggle with the add management in phase 3. We also get a lot of wasted attempts to dumb deaths (people double soaking flame rends, getting greedy and not getting out of searing tempest, ranged missing rend soak, etc). I would say theres more wipes to these simple dumb things than there are to major flubs.

Oh for sure there's wipes to individual players foolishness, but to eliminate those deaths you have to fundamentally change the fight. This is typically what makes health nerfs so effective. You can afford to lose people when the boss has less health.

Flame Rend double soaking - You'd have to be able to soak both, completely removing the need for two groups to soak. Assuming they kept Flame Rend damage the same, this changes the fight drastically as it's no longer a threatening ability.
Ranged missing soak - Reducing the damage of Flame Rend would solve this, and I could definitely see this happening. People missing soaks in phase 3 with all the chaos is for sure an issue for lesser guilds.
Searing Tempest deaths - Same as Flame Rend double soaking, the only way to fix this is to make Searing Tempest not be lethal, making it non-threatening and just an annoying disorient.

There's always more wipes to simple things versus major things. Argus is a very good example of this. The majority of wipes for all guilds are in phase 1. But it's simple, just immediately move the appropriate direction when the boss is casting Cone. I remember our progression on it, there was some players who had it down almost immediately, and others who just couldn't figure it out. Once they figured out there wasn't time for you to get that last cast off, they became more consistent. Being able to make the checks with these foolish deaths (health nerf), and/or completely eliminating the foolish deaths (longer cast time on Cone) suddenly makes far more attempts viable. When we were progressing on it, we couldn't really afford to lose people randomly in any phase. By the time we killed it, we could lose a couple people in phase one and still make the checks. But while progressing, we couldn't. So all of those pulls where you lose someone to foolishness had to be called. Those pulls add add up, fast. Nerfs always drastically increase the amount of viable pulls. Problem is, there's only 15 weeks left. The longer Blizzard waits to nerf, the more severe they're going to have to be.

[Revelations 45]

Cutting Edge is a Feat of Strength, and visible on any character on your account. All you got pre Legion, where you haven't even stepped foot into Mythic, is AOTC in Hellfire Citadel (same day as Time is a Flat Circle which smells like being carried) so that means you haven't raiding the highest tier of difficulty at a serious level since early Mists at least.

I don't think that means your opinion is invalid, but cut the bullshit. You simply have not experienced what raiding at the highest level is nowadays.

Did it every occur to you that I might have switched accounts over the past couple years? You just made a fool of yourself. You can ask Treckie in his stream if you don't believe me but I was an ex nihilum core raider.

[KaPe]

Did it every occur to you that I might have switched accounts over the past couple years? You just made a fool of yourself. You can ask Treckie in his stream if you don't believe me but I was an ex nihilum core raider.

Even assuming that's true, Nihilum hasn't been relevant for years, so your self-claimed glory doesn't really matter.

[Reloe]

Did it every occur to you that I might have switched accounts over the past couple years? You just made a fool of yourself. You can ask Treckie in his stream if you don't believe me but I was an ex nihilum core raider.

so i'm assuming you are referring to the wod-era nihilum yes?
then whats so special about it that you have to mention it at all. WoD Nihilum was just another shitty guild that was raiding 10+hours a day, 7days a week and not even being close to the ranking you should be with this time commtiment. I'm not saying nihilum only had bad players, but compared to their time investment their ranking was below average. Thus the average skill of a player in that guild is lower than the ranking suggests, meaning chances are, you might aswell be just another world 100 raider.

Now that doesn't mean you don't have any say in this conversation. I think that anyone that has cleared any raid on the highest difficulty recently can have a say in this. All that matters is that your statements are reasonable and include explanations as to why you think that way.
And so far the only thing I've seen from you are general statements with no correlation to the actual problem and thats simply why no one is taking you serious.

You basically come in here saying "yo i'm ex nihilum raider, bosses that have been killed at list once by any guild shouldn't ever be nerfed"

[Jastall]

Did it every occur to you that I might have switched accounts over the past couple years? You just made a fool of yourself. You can ask Treckie in his stream if you don't believe me but I was an ex nihilum core raider.

Ah yes, first it was ''well it's my alt'' then it became ''well it's my other account''. Wonder what the next excuse will be. ''Well raiding today is too easy for me'' is the personal favorite one I heard.

Even assuming you're telling the truth, as someone said WoD-era Nihilum was hardly anything special and it doesn't make you an authority on the subject.

[Revelations 45]

Ah yes, first it was ''well it's my alt'' then it became ''well it's my other account''. Wonder what the next excuse will be. ''Well raiding today is too easy for me'' is the personal favorite one I heard.

Even assuming you're telling the truth, as someone said WoD-era Nihilum was hardly anything special and it doesn't make you an authority on the subject.

World #14 HFC gives me more than enough credibility to discuss this topic. I don't know where you're from where #14 isn't "anything special".

[Keltas]

I agree with the issue of a single class being necessary and making or breaking the boss. All you can do is stand there and watch it fail. It seems a bit weird that they don't improve though. After a large number of wipes you usually memorize every single thing that is going to happen and how to deal with it. How are those DKs so bad that they can't learn? I'm also surprised you mention dps fucking it up for the sake of parses. Seems unusual for a mythic group that they don't understand that is a bad thing to do.

The dps fucking it up didn't start until we were a lot of wipes in. you know everyones tired and sick of the boss and just kinda on auto pilot. It's not the highest end guild so a lot of people think their parse matters and when they aren't being told to do the mechanic they ignore it for the parse.


The dk's I just don't know. One dude has been doing it about half the pulls and somehow doesn't have it right still. It's worse when you factor in our ranged problem. We have exactly 10 ranged (we have a lot of monk/pally healers) so none of us ranged can swap to our DKs to do it. We basically HAVE to rely on them, or make them level and gear a ranged, which they probably will just quit if we ask them to do.

[Reloe]

World #14 HFC gives me more than enough credibility to discuss this topic. I don't know where you're from where #14 isn't "anything special".

We may not forget to mention that naguura, who back then raided in method for anyone that isn't aware, joined nihilum's progression on mannoroth and also took over a lot, if not most, of the raidleading and strat adjustments. Now all of you can value that how you want, but for me that definetly lessers the achievement of that world rank even further.

[Marrilaife]

It's not the highest end guild so a lot of people think their parse matters and when they aren't being told to do the mechanic they ignore it for the parse.

A lot of players think "I can defo finish this aimed shot / pyro bracer cast and then move out of shit" and then woops, didn't make it. I don't know if there's any level of guilds where this doesn't happen, but I know for sure it happens as high as world top 100.