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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by crusadernero View Post
    I remember before that it was a thing saying "Let the tank pull first". Does not even matter these days. The group just plow along with the tank grabbing aggro from whatever mob a dps pulls in a split second.

    Its like tanks these days are needed for raids and thats about it.
    I'm sure that's true if you avoid all forms of challenging content. Sure isn't true in mythic+.

    It's almost like most of the unsubbed nostalgia freaks here have no idea of what the game is even like nowadays, because dungeons and raids have never - at any point in WoW's history - been more challenging than they are now.

    The difference is now that there is an easy tourist mode for those people who can't be bothered with challenge and just want to chill. But there's no reason at all you have to participate in easy tourist mode if you don't want to.

    It's stupid in the extreme to avoid all the challenging things in game, and then go around saying the game isn't challenging enough.
    Last edited by ydraw; 2018-03-22 at 02:44 PM.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by ydraw View Post
    I'm sure that's true if you avoid all forms of challenging content. Sure isn't true in mythic+.

    It's almost like most of the unsubbed nostalgia freaks here have no idea of what the game is even like nowadays, because dungeons and raids have never - at any point in WoW's history - been more challenging than they are now.

    The difference is now that there is an easy tourist mode for those people who can't be bothered with challenge and just want to chill. But there's no reason at all you have to participate in easy tourist mode if you don't want to.

    It's stupid in the extreme to avoid all the challenging things in game, and then go around saying the game isn't challenging enough.
    The point is in classic there was one mode, that you either played or didn't. So you engaged everyone in the same content. One difficulty.

    I've got no issue if people want even harder content. Great. But I want the default content to be challenging too.

    If you were a fresh 60 it was hard. If you were well geared, mistakes still cost. Even if you're T3 geared, complacency can still kill you. Mistakes were punished and that is how it should be. It's almost impossible to die in any form of LFG/LFR mode in retail.

    I don't want to have to join a guild to do a difficult dungeon. Or have an achievement. Or 10 billion gearscore or whatever other metric people use now.

    I just want to type "LFG Strat Live - rogue", get a group, talk to some people I've never met, chill and do the dungeon.

    A key aspect to this is the engagement on a personal level with randoms. That just doesn't happen apart from abuse in retail.

    We make our own Mythic+ by doing dungeons like LBRS and UBRS in vendor gear xD

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Gavll View Post
    The point is in classic there was one mode, that you either played or didn't. So you engaged everyone in the same content. One difficulty.

    I've got no issue if people want even harder content. Great. But I want the default content to be challenging too.
    Why though?

    When there was only one difficulty, the only effect it had was that people who couldn't handle that difficulty didn't do it. Ever.

    You weren't "engaging everyone in the same content" at all. People just totally avoided it.

    The problem with making default content "challenging" to you is that there is a massive, massive disparity in play skill amount the WoW population. What you find "challenging" is too easy for the cream of mythic raiders, and totally impossible for others. That's the whole point of multiple difficulties, and by and large, the people who are opposed to multiple difficulties are opposed because they think worse players don't "deserve" content.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Gavll View Post
    A key aspect to this is the engagement on a personal level with randoms. That just doesn't happen apart from abuse in retail.
    Completely untrue. It happens more now than it ever did in Vanilla.

    To be fair there probably was a fair period of time when it was true that dungeons were too easy - but that was before the implementation of challenge modes and Mythic dungeons in WoD. The experience you are looking for exists now in retail. You just refuse to participate in it.
    Last edited by ydraw; 2018-03-23 at 01:31 PM.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by ydraw View Post
    Why though?

    When there was only one difficulty, the only effect it had was that people who couldn't handle that difficulty didn't do it. Ever.

    You weren't "engaging everyone in the same content" at all. People just totally avoided it.

    The problem with making default content "challenging" to you is that there is a massive, massive disparity in play skill amount the WoW population. What you find "challenging" is too easy for the cream of mythic raiders, and totally impossible for others. That's the whole point of multiple difficulties, and by and large, the people who are opposed to multiple difficulties are opposed because they think worse players don't "deserve" content.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Completely untrue. It happens more now than it ever did in Vanilla.

    To be fair there probably was a fair period of time when it was true that dungeons were too easy - but that was before the implementation of challenge modes and Mythic dungeons in WoD. The experience you are looking for exists now in retail. You just refuse to participate in it.
    I haven't seen anyone say anything other than "ogogogogo!", "hello" or "noob" in a random dungeon run since LFG was introduced pretty much. I also don't like how any of the classes play now, so no, the experience I am looking for does not exist in retail, hence why I don't play.

    Yes. I am of the opinion that it's better when content is locked behind difficulty. I didn't get into AQ40 or Naxx in vanilla. I didn't cry about it. It just added to the mythos and motivated me to do the end-game stuff in TBC. If you aren't good enough then you can't do it I'm afraid. Just like real life. This is supposed to be an MMORPG remember?

    How is anyone supposed to believe that the "big bad" is actually big or bad when it can be killed by 10 facerolling retards who get epic loot for clicking on squirrels?

    If it can only be killed by top guilds, then you know it was hard and a worthy adversary. It adds to the sense of the world.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Gavll View Post
    If it can only be killed by top guilds, then you know it was hard and a worthy adversary. It adds to the sense of the world.
    And that's exactly what mythic raid bosses are like now. The trick is to just think of mythic bosses and LFR bosses as 2 different bosses. Which is what everyone does.
    I haven't seen anyone say anything other than "ogogogogo!", "hello" or "noob" in a random dungeon run since LFG was introduced pretty much.
    Then you haven't done any challenging content. That is not the game's fault. You can't use the random dungeon finder to complete M+ or even regular mythic dungeons.

    How is anyone supposed to believe that the "big bad" is actually big or bad when it can be killed by 10 facerolling retards who get epic loot for clicking on squirrels?
    Would it make you feel better if the loot was a different colour? Because sure, you can get "epic" loot for clicking on a squirrel. But it's 100 ilvls lower than the epic loot you get for killing mythic raid bosses.

    In vanilla you could buy epic BOE's from the AH. That doesn't mean that they were any good.
    Last edited by ydraw; 2018-03-24 at 02:49 AM.

  6. #26
    I am Murloc! Deficineiron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ydraw View Post
    Why though?

    When there was only one difficulty, the only effect it had was that people who couldn't handle that difficulty didn't do it. Ever.

    You weren't "engaging everyone in the same content" at all. People just totally avoided it.

    The problem with making default content "challenging" to you is that there is a massive, massive disparity in play skill amount the WoW population. What you find "challenging" is too easy for the cream of mythic raiders, and totally impossible for others. That's the whole point of multiple difficulties, and by and large, the people who are opposed to multiple difficulties are opposed because they think worse players don't "deserve" content.
    I suspect human nature plays a role here. It may not seem logical from certain viewpoints, but offering a single difficulty, period, and keeping the base difficulty engaging (not faceroll) will attract some players more and most of them probably cannot explain it (and their critics , at least here, almost invariably end up in personal attacks, claims of telepathy , and other odd behavior - this does not refer to you ydraw).

    An interesting exception to this was bc - the heroic dungeons were very challenging at gear level, but they were added difficult content on top of dungeons that, particularly level 70 normals, were not forgiving either. Yes, I know, everyone in t5 blew through normal level 70s, but they were tuned for players lucky to by in avg ilvl 105 or so (lvl 70 base gear ilvl was 115). additionally, revered keys for heroics required running those same normal 70s many times in most cases in any event.
    Last edited by Deficineiron; 2018-03-24 at 04:40 AM.
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  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Deficineiron View Post
    I suspect human nature plays a role here. It may not seem logical from certain viewpoints, but offering a single difficulty, period, and keeping the base difficulty engaging (not faceroll) will attract some players more
    That's the problem though. What's engaging to one person is not engaging to another.

    If original raid bosses from Vanilla were put into BFA as the mythic raid bosses, most dedicated raiders would quit because it would be far too easy, and entire raids would be cleared in a day.

    There is a very good reason for multiple difficulties, and that's something that I guess Classic aficionados are going to have to find out the hard way.

  8. #28
    Warchief Daffan's Avatar
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    We already worked this out in WOTLK

    When you have such easy content that anyone can breeze through, nobody needs or wants to talk nor has the time to when you zerg it down in 10 minutes. It's impossible to fail, just waiting to collect loot.
    Content drought is a combination of catchup mechanics and no new content.

  9. #29
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    It should be obvious to anyone that bad circumstances--in this case a subjective opinion--are not likely to be fun.

    Co-operative play on the other hand can be a lot of fun. At some level it's a part of what the game is about and the reason why people should dip into it with friends and guildmates. It's a bonus when it works out with a random group.
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