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  1. #501
    Blizzard is not encouraging it.. They are handing out warforged items from the easiest content, so why should raiding be any different?
    You just need to stop inviting people without checking their logs first.

  2. #502
    Or maybe blizz could stop handing out items left and right, and make the game more rewarding again.

  3. #503
    Want a serious answer?

    ignoring natural skill, age, time spent on the game, internet connection and computer one the main issues that don't allow the "masses" to evolve is... the f*cking UI. A game with 15 years with monthly subscription and baffles me that we still use the vanilla UI with little additions.

    If the game had the correct frames position, the information we get from weakauras (boss fights, cooldowns, debuffs, etc) alot of ppl could/would improve. But NO... we still need 10 more years of paying per month 11 to 13 euros (in EU) to Blizzard enters the XXI century. Or count with the support of our community to create the UIs, weakauras etc that as you know most of the "people bad at wow/raiding" don't use it, don't know how to configure correctly, etc.

  4. #504
    To be honest I'd say that I'm a very bad player. Been playing since WotLK. Well I can say, and thank god i did, i did get way better than i was at first. But as it comes to Mythic+ and Raiding I am very bad. The main thing is that i dont feel like really paying attention to this part of the game. On the other hand I think i'm okay at PvP. Not the focusses rated PvP, but more the sitback 1vX kind of PvP (Admitting that in most of these situations the enemies aren't good players at all, but still with all the CC it feels good to win a 1vX)

    I think its mostly mindset from people that make them 'bad'. Which is probably mostly the case with me.. Maybe im wrong though, maybe even if i would put in the effort and such i'd still suck, but who knows. I think the biggest accomplishment i got in wow, is Getting close to Lord of the Reins (Not even there yet, imagine). But this isnt skill based AT ALL.

  5. #505
    I think the connotation of "bad gamers" is mainly due to them relying too heavily on people who know what they are doing, and getting carried.

    I can recall many times and fights where someone in better gear, set is doing worse than other people with less gear, who simply just know how to play their class.

    A lot of stuff is given to us quite easily, without any real test of skill. Raiding does test that, not only for yourself, but how well you work as a team, and with other players. Same for PvP

    Getting carried is quite commonplace now. Do a few world quests, get LFR welfare epics, and ur caught up.. But, does this truly give someone the edge in knowing their class, and being able to compete on the same level as people who have.. More time and effort into their class and game.

    TLDR: People are lazy, and often times don't care enough to try and get the best outcome.

  6. #506
    Quote Originally Posted by Alphatorg View Post
    1 read up your spec on icy veins
    2 DL a boss mod, if you're a healer maybe DL some raid frames
    3 go to wago and DL the highest rated WA package for your class, maybe a raid WA package like those from Reloe (both optional)
    4 during encounter look at the output of your boss mod every 15-20 seconds
    Yeah. Buy a game, don't attempt to discover anything yourself, just read a guide. Then proceed to download a bunch of mods that basically play the game for you.

    Now that's fun'.

    OP, I'm not making fun of you, because in essence you're absolutely right, that's WoW. I'm making fun of the fact that Blizzard made a game that basically requires cheats in order for players to be somewhat successful at content that's supposedly challenging.
    "Just flow with the go..." - Rickson Gracie

  7. #507
    Quote Originally Posted by nocturnus View Post
    Yeah. Buy a game, don't attempt to discover anything yourself, just read a guide. Then proceed to download a bunch of mods that basically play the game for you.

    Now that's fun'.

    OP, I'm not making fun of you, because in essence you're absolutely right, that's WoW. I'm making fun of the fact that Blizzard made a game that basically requires cheats in order for players to be somewhat successful at content that's supposedly challenging.
    boss mods just speeds up the learning process. When I raided i have it installed so information can be synced for other people and I do raid announcements, but I don't actually look at them myself.

    you absolutely don't need any of the listed items above to do well, but it requires a lot more effort to reach the same conclusion (gearing, talents, etc).

  8. #508
    Quote Originally Posted by david0925 View Post
    boss mods just speeds up the learning process. When I raided i have it installed so information can be synced for other people and I do raid announcements, but I don't actually look at them myself.

    you absolutely don't need any of the listed items above to do well, but it requires a lot more effort to reach the same conclusion (gearing, talents, etc).
    You don't and you do.

    Barely anyone (especially at mythic levels, puke) has the patience to deal with players who want to play the game without hand-holding-mods, that's the unfortunate truth.

    And I get that, since I believe (now don't all go on a rage for me saying this) barely anyone actually enjoys raiding. So people want to get it over with, loot and get the heck out asap.
    Last edited by nocturnus; 2019-07-03 at 02:18 PM.
    "Just flow with the go..." - Rickson Gracie

  9. #509
    Quote Originally Posted by nocturnus View Post
    Yeah. Buy a game, don't attempt to discover anything yourself, just read a guide. Then proceed to download a bunch of mods that basically play the game for you.

    Now that's fun'.

    OP, I'm not making fun of you, because in essence you're absolutely right, that's WoW. I'm making fun of the fact that Blizzard made a game that basically requires cheats in order for players to be somewhat successful at content that's supposedly challenging.
    Wow doesn't force you to do anything, you pick the speed you want to progress at yourself. I was talking about "serious" groups specifically in my OP though.
    And comparing mods to cheats is just silly, first of all they don't play the game for you, most of them just display information in a more efficient way, and secondly Blizzard polices what mods are allowed to be capable of, they even design bosses around them afaik.



    Quote Originally Posted by nocturnus View Post
    You don't and you do.

    Barely anyone (especially at mythic levels, puke) has the patience to deal with players who want to play the game without hand-holding-mods, that's the unfortunate truth.

    And I get that, since I believe (now don't all go on a rage for me saying this) barely anyone actually enjoys raiding. So people want to get it over with, loot and get the heck out asap.
    The actual thing you're describing is that people - when in a competitive setting - get frustrated when people on their team are holding them back and I don't think it's something that's restricted to raiding or wow.

  10. #510
    Quote Originally Posted by Alphatorg View Post

    The actual thing you're describing is that people - when in a competitive setting - get frustrated when people on their team are holding them back and I don't think it's something that's restricted to raiding or wow.
    No, I'm referring to when you get past the progress; doing the same thing over and over just isn't fun. Why do you think raiding participation has dropped so much since mythic +? Because the only reason people indulged it, was loot, not fun. Now that loot can be acquired elsewhere, people stop doing what they don't enjoy.
    Last edited by nocturnus; 2019-07-07 at 06:34 PM.
    "Just flow with the go..." - Rickson Gracie

  11. #511
    Give this game some good old long questlinies with some shine shit at the end.

    Make players have to work for it.
    Boom suddenly alot of people will again care about thier char and learn the fucking rotation to beat the challenge for said shine shit

  12. #512
    What is "DL"? How do I DL a Boss Mod? And where is Wago located and Icy-who?

    My point is lack of communication.

    When I used to Main Tank just 5man Dungeons I would always ask people in my group if they knew the boss encaounter we were about to face and if someone said "no" I'd give them a quick rundown of what would come and how to deal with it. Took me about 30-60 secinds to do so and I've never wiped a group. And if I was new to the dungeon then someone else would brief us - and if all of us were new we'd pay attention and tell each other what we've observed.

    But the art of communication with your group is slowly going away. Go DL a mod - what the what?

    Yes it mostly falls on the Tanks shoulders to be the one making sure everyone is onboard with what is going to happen. Been like this since Vanilla. At least in my wow. Part of why I stopped tanking when rl intruded on my wow time. But I rarely see that anymore. In fact I've watched Tanks yolo away from the group not paying attention to the groups of Nagas/pirates/murlochs/whatever chewing on the healer and dps folks, until they relized the group had fallen behind before dying from lack of healing and dps. I suspect the raiding culture (in LFR) is a lot like this.

    In short: If you know the boss tactics then make sure to let your group in on them before pulling the boss, thus making everyone better raiders and prevent unnessecary wipes

  13. #513
    Quote Originally Posted by nocturnus View Post
    No, I'm referring to when you get passed the progress; doing the same thing over and over just isn't fun. Why do you think raiding participation has dropped so much since mythic +? Because the only reason people indulged it, was loot, not fun. Now that loot can be acquired elsewhere, people stop doing what they don't enjoy.
    But progression is a part of raiding, for mythic guilds it's actually the important part of raiding, the boredom that comes from farming is quite relative as well, it depends on how long it takes for the next raid to be released, how much fun the people in your raid group are, how much you care about rankings, whether your guild tries speed kills or the use of alts etc.
    I'm sure there are/were many people who kept pugging heroic just for the loot, but I don't see the issue if Blizzard gives them an alternative. I think the biggest killer for (mythic) raid guilds are WQs and AP/herb grinds, because they slowly burn out people who don't want to have to commit more than raid nights to the game, as well as officers who already have guild management as a daily chore.

  14. #514
    Light comes from darkness shise's Avatar
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    Raiding is not easy.

    When you are a teenager or even on your early 20s, or later and you are doing nothing, sure it is easy. It was for me.

    Once you grow a bit and you get a job and responsibility, you can not think about all that much anymore, maybe just enough to log in, raid, log out. Your focus is not the same, your practice is much less now too.. all in all you have less time in a game where time = skill (unless you genuinely suck that much).

    So in short: if you can play several hours a day, sure it is easy.
    If you can only log in for the raids and your heads is still at the office, thinking about how you have a meeting with the engineers tomorrow to discuss a building detail, then trust me, it becomes hard and all of a sudden you find yourself dying on a fire, cause you genuinely didn´t see it (and your 10 years old version is laughing at you).

  15. #515
    Why is person X better at Y than me? Because he's either smarter than you, works harder or has better genetics. Or any combination of both.

    Like with everything in life: nature, nurture and effort.

    All the other fluff in this thread still boils down to either of those. "Lack of communication from Blizzard?" no, that's an externalised strawman for your lack of intelligence. "Relying too much on other people telling them what to do?", same story.

    A smart guy looks for the information he needs to improve and can draw his own conclusions, do his own tests, find the available tools and learn how to use them, look into his own sims instead of waiting for Preach to give him wrong info he hasn't even spent more than 5min drawing up for his video.

    In this politically correct era there's always a poor ass excuse. The answer is simply: git gud. Be better. If I'm legit bad at something, it's due to my own ineptitude. I don't have to be stellar or the best ever, but there's never any excuse for being downright bad at anything.

    Barring health concerns etc, but we're not talking about that.
    Last edited by Ashina; 2019-07-05 at 12:04 PM.

  16. #516
    Quote Originally Posted by Gibsonz View Post
    Want a serious answer?

    ignoring natural skill, age, time spent on the game, internet connection and computer one the main issues that don't allow the "masses" to evolve is... the f*cking UI. A game with 15 years with monthly subscription and baffles me that we still use the vanilla UI with little additions.

    If the game had the correct frames position, the information we get from weakauras (boss fights, cooldowns, debuffs, etc) alot of ppl could/would improve. But NO... we still need 10 more years of paying per month 11 to 13 euros (in EU) to Blizzard enters the XXI century. Or count with the support of our community to create the UIs, weakauras etc that as you know most of the "people bad at wow/raiding" don't use it, don't know how to configure correctly, etc.
    There are world first raiders that use the default UI with minimal addons.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by nocturnus View Post
    You don't and you do.

    Barely anyone (especially at mythic levels, puke) has the patience to deal with players who want to play the game without hand-holding-mods, that's the unfortunate truth.

    And I get that, since I believe (now don't all go on a rage for me saying this) barely anyone actually enjoys raiding. So people want to get it over with, loot and get the heck out asap.
    Mythic raiders typically care more about getting the kill than they do getting loot.

  17. #517
    Please dont forget, raids (old-heroic/new-mythic) in the PRE-LEGION times were heavy nerfed by NERF-PATCHES after the tier or by MASSIVE-BUFFS you could stack over-time. While you could run lots of raids with family and friend players at the end of most tiers this was no longer true after LEGION. Mythic 1-fail = 1-wipe mechanics stayed even after the tier ended. It was necessary in the past, since the RAID-OR-DIE system was in place and the catch-up mechanics were not made for raiding players.

    Casual raiders could clear the harder raid difficultys because the game overnerfed/overbuffed the content at the end of each tier. Thats no longer the case since 2 expansions and maybe - I guess the OP is a LEGION/BFA starter - this is what you see in the game right now.
    hidden information WoWArmory | Raider.IO | WoWProg | logs Logs1 | Logs2 | Logs3

  18. #518
    Quote Originally Posted by temple1906 View Post
    There are world first raiders that use the default UI with minimal addons.

    Mythic raiders typically care more about getting the kill than they do getting loot.
    Merely a fraction of the mythic raiders are 'world first' raiders and let's be honest, who the fuck cares about them?

    Maybe I haven't been clear enough, but I'm talking about when you get past progressions, when you've already got the kill.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Alphatorg View Post
    But progression is a part of raiding, for mythic guilds it's actually the important part of raiding, the boredom that comes from farming is quite relative as well, it depends on how long it takes for the next raid to be released, how much fun the people in your raid group are, how much you care about rankings, whether your guild tries speed kills or the use of alts etc.
    I'm sure there are/were many people who kept pugging heroic just for the loot, but I don't see the issue if Blizzard gives them an alternative. I think the biggest killer for (mythic) raid guilds are WQs and AP/herb grinds, because they slowly burn out people who don't want to have to commit more than raid nights to the game, as well as officers who already have guild management as a daily chore.
    Which is why I said "when you get past the progress". That's when the grind begins, that's when you start doing content for all the wrong reasons and that's when players lose their patience.
    "Just flow with the go..." - Rickson Gracie

  19. #519
    Quote Originally Posted by temple1906 View Post
    There are world first raiders that use the default UI with minimal addons.
    If you check I said

    "Want a serious answer?

    ignoring natural skill, age, time spent on the game, internet connection and computer one the main issues that don't allow the "masses" to evolve is... the f*cking UI. A game with 15 years with monthly subscription and baffles me that we still use the vanilla UI with little additions.

    If the game had the correct frames position, the information we get from weakauras (boss fights, cooldowns, debuffs, etc) alot of ppl could/would improve. But NO... we still need 10 more years of paying per month 11 to 13 euros (in EU) to Blizzard enters the XXI century. Or count with the support of our community to create the UIs, weakauras etc that as you know most of the "people bad at wow/raiding" don't use it, don't know how to configure correctly, etc."
    How many world first raiders use the frames (player and boss) at top left corner and how many of them don't use ANY weakauras or boss mods with timers/announcements?
    That's what I was trying to say on my post.

  20. #520
    Because they don't have the attitude to get better and still can experience all content the game provides.

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