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  1. #341
    Quote Originally Posted by Drsephuz7 View Post
    And here you have the perfect example of why people suck in games - they always think they are right regardless of how utterly stupid the scenario is
    Right back at you, that door swings both ways.

    I mean you are comparing muscle memory + feeling your keyboard with muscle memory when clicking your keys on screen - close your eyes and you'll "see" how much more a clicker will fuck up compared to someone using keybinds using muscle memory (let me guess your mousearrow "feels" where it is on the screen when you touch your mouse right?.) - if you click you will have to look where you click at points whilst you never have to look at your keyboard due to feeling it + muscle memory.
    Yes, i always know exactly where my mouse pointer is on the screen and i rarely look for it. Yes, i can close my eyes, not know where the pointer is at and click on any of my abilities. Yes, i can do my rotations just fine with my eyes closed.

    Just because you cant do it, doesnt mean others cant do it. Thats called ignorance.

    But hey,guess thats a poor argument aswell so unfortunate - literally no way to help people like this.
    (Ive been clicking too when starting and yes you can easily reach glad,clear raids etc whilst clicking thats not the point,the point is you will have more overview and situational awareness by using keybinds and for some kind of playing this is a huge advantage.)
    No, you will. Not everyone. You.

    The fact that you wont be able to sustain a rotation with your eyes closed as a clicker proves that using keybinds just needs less input to pull off overall which means you can focus more on other things if you have proper binds - doesnt mean you cant do xxx as a clicker.
    Yes i can.

  2. #342
    Quote Originally Posted by Grimreaper View Post
    Right back at you, that door swings both ways.


    Yes, i always know exactly where my mouse pointer is on the screen and i rarely look for it. Yes, i can close my eyes, not know where the pointer is at and click on any of my abilities. Yes, i can do my rotations just fine with my eyes closed.

    Just because you cant do it, doesnt mean others cant do it. Thats called ignorance.


    No, you will. Not everyone. You.


    Yes i can.
    You keep saying that, but there's just no proof of that...
    I can say that i can walk on water, but with no substansial proof of the deed, no one in their right mind will believe me. Because it defies logic.

    As said earlier, you might be able to play extraordinary well for a Clicker, and you might actually perform very well on a target dummy.
    But not on a real boss with mechanics and deffinetly not in high end pvp


    Madness will consume you!!!

  3. #343
    Quote Originally Posted by Grimreaper View Post
    Right back at you, that door swings both ways.


    Yes, i always know exactly where my mouse pointer is on the screen and i rarely look for it. Yes, i can close my eyes, not know where the pointer is at and click on any of my abilities. Yes, i can do my rotations just fine with my eyes closed.

    Just because you cant do it, doesnt mean others cant do it. Thats called ignorance.


    No, you will. Not everyone. You.


    Yes i can.
    then make a video with closed eyes - go ahead ill wait for that laugh but its not gonna happen anyway so i might aswell just end it for you right here.
    old post of you 2k14

    "Yes, it is easier with keybinds, i've got no illusions there. The end result is the same tho. There is basicly no difference in performance. It can still be done with clicking, as is my only point."

    So why do you even argue? With the same time input and learning time,keybinds are superior to clicking end of story. (cause it's easier just like you said)
    That a good clicker will be better at performance than someone new to keybinds is irrelevant to that matter - maybe you will get this at some point (doesnt matter how you play the game if you are willing to put time in and learn,yet this doesnt mean its the best.)

    Just like a good runner can reach higher speeds than a bike if the one driving the bike just learned how to drive it - still the bike has a higher top speed overall.

    If clicking would have even the slightest upside to keybinds then you would see top players do it - its a stupid argument but thats just how it is.
    Last edited by Realfleks; 2018-04-18 at 04:48 PM.

  4. #344
    Quote Originally Posted by Dahij View Post
    My gf doesn't want to read up on things because she doesn't want other people telling her how to play, instead she plays the way she wants even if it's not optimal but she's also having more fun that way.
    But isn't it the only reason why people might tell her how to play? I mean is that so hard to read literall half a page of A4?

  5. #345
    Quote Originally Posted by Drsephuz7 View Post
    then make a video with closed eyes - go ahead ill wait for that laugh but its not gonna happen anyway so i might aswell just end it for you right here.
    old post of you 2k14

    "Yes, it is easier with keybinds, i've got no illusions there. The end result is the same tho. There is basicly no difference in performance. It can still be done with clicking, as is my only point."

    So why do you even argue? With the same time input and learning time,keybinds are superior to clicking end of story. (cause it's easier just like you said)
    That a good clicker will be better at performance than someone new to keybinds is irrelevant to that matter - maybe you will get this at some point (doesnt matter how you play the game if you are willing to put time in and learn,yet this doesnt mean its the best.)

    Just like a good runner can reach higher speeds than a bike if the one driving the bike just learned how to drive it - still the bike has a higher top speed overall.

    If clicking would have even the slightest upside to keybinds then you would see top players do it - its a stupid argument but thats just how it is.
    It's easier to play well with keybinds, but it's not faster (not that it matters much anyways, GCD says hi). Yes, it's better for most people, but not for everyone. Does it take longer to get good at clicking for the average player? Yes. Does that make clicking bad? No.

  6. #346
    Quote Originally Posted by Grimreaper View Post
    It's easier to play well with keybinds, but it's not faster (not that it matters much anyways, GCD says hi). Yes, it's better for most people, but not for everyone. Does it take longer to get good at clicking for the average player? Yes. Does that make clicking bad? No.
    Does that make keybinds better? Yes. - nothing else needs to be said,if you are a lazy player and want to improve you will want to decide for decent binds over learning how to be a "good" clicker.

  7. #347
    Quote Originally Posted by JackWest View Post
    You dont need to watch anything if you use your brain as its meant to: i think if spell A makes your spell B do a lot more damage for x time, you should make sure you can use spell B as much as possible in that window. Thats pretty intuitive imo(talking about mm hunt here). Or if you get a proc making your Spell A have no cost and do 400% more damage, you should click that the moment you get it. (Frost dk). Or if you pick have a passive as tank which makes any enemy with your ranged dot on them, do less damage to you, you should keep it on highest uptime as you can(guardian deuid). All those feel ‘intuitive’ to me but i still see 960-970 ilvl players who dont know those things. Not to mention, if boss spawns add that does 5 sec cast you should interrupt it(odyn in HoV) yet a lot of players dont. Its even in the in-game journal. But who bothers reading that, right?
    reading journals and guides is pretty boring activity for anyone but real enthusiast - dont blame people for not wanting to be bored when playing game.

    i get where you are coming from very well - there was a point in my life when i was reading guides for every single class , when i known timers on bosses by heart to and had planned when to use my abilities etc but that was long time ago and got me eventually really burned out

    nowadays i have much more fun just playing the game even if its on shit level - but its so much more fun

  8. #348
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    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    reading journals and guides is pretty boring activity for anyone but real enthusiast - dont blame people for not wanting to be bored when playing game.

    i get where you are coming from very well - there was a point in my life when i was reading guides for every single class , when i known timers on bosses by heart to and had planned when to use my abilities etc but that was long time ago and got me eventually really burned out

    nowadays i have much more fun just playing the game even if its on shit level - but its so much more fun
    What i meant is, that you dont need external sources to learn to play the game. Everything is in the game already, but people simply dont bother ‘going through it’

  9. #349
    Quote Originally Posted by JackWest View Post
    What i meant is, that you dont need external sources to learn to play the game. Everything is in the game already, but people simply dont bother ‘going through it’
    what i mean is game should be designed in way that you learn organicaly what to do and how to do . im not saying you should be able to reach 100 % potential but if people would be able to reach 70% by playing the game wow would be so much better game. atm its impossible . that is the design flaw that imo costed them milions of subs (alongside ton of other bad game design decisions like moving into directio of rng dictating most of stuff concerning your chars now)

    if it meant that they would have to get rid of half of abilities that noone besides top 1 % uses - so be it - so far any mmorpg game that was catered towards hardcore playerbase failed completly - why wow decided to go in this direction is beyond me but hey they wanted to kill of their game they are certainly succeding with last 2 expansions.

  10. #350
    Quote Originally Posted by JackWest View Post
    What i meant is, that you dont need external sources to learn to play the game. Everything is in the game already, but people simply dont bother ‘going through it’
    Try playing any type of semi difficult pvp or pve content using in game voice chat then come back and tell me you don't need external sources to play.
    Quote Originally Posted by Breezy Badger View Post
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  11. #351
    Mechagnome JackWest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alright View Post
    Try playing any type of semi difficult pvp or pve content using in game voice chat then come back and tell me you don't need external sources to play.
    You do realise blizzard have voice chat for half legion now?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    what i mean is game should be designed in way that you learn organicaly what to do and how to do . im not saying you should be able to reach 100 % potential but if people would be able to reach 70% by playing the game wow would be so much better game. atm its impossible . that is the design flaw that imo costed them milions of subs (alongside ton of other bad game design decisions like moving into directio of rng dictating most of stuff concerning your chars now)

    if it meant that they would have to get rid of half of abilities that noone besides top 1 % uses - so be it - so far any mmorpg game that was catered towards hardcore playerbase failed completly - why wow decided to go in this direction is beyond me but hey they wanted to kill of their game they are certainly succeding with last 2 expansions.

    I am pretty sure if a person picks a class from lvl 1, levels it to max and wvery time they lesrn new ability they read what it does, by level cap they will know how to play that class pretty well. From what i understand you want ‘press [interrupt keybind]!’ Message, when enemy is casting. Thats not teaching. Thats what i call ‘babysitting’ and it only leads to player not learning what to use, but relying on game to tell them what to do when.

  12. #352
    Quote Originally Posted by JackWest View Post
    You do realise blizzard have voice chat for half legion now?

    - - - Updated - - -




    I am pretty sure if a person picks a class from lvl 1, levels it to max and wvery time they lesrn new ability they read what it does, by level cap they will know how to play that class pretty well. From what i understand you want ‘press [interrupt keybind]!’ Message, when enemy is casting. Thats not teaching. Thats what i call ‘babysitting’ and it only leads to player not learning what to use, but relying on game to tell them what to do when.
    I gotta agree with you there... But there are other ways to teach players how to play.
    Like, put a single player challenge in place like the Mage tower or the proving grounds, make the rewards a little more appealing for the wider audiences (such as mounts, pets and appearences) and make the challenges hard enough so that players have to invest a little time in reading their abilities and grow their knowledge of their class organicaly.
    Perhaps they can introduce an entry level challenge that will hold their hands like the Proving Grounds did... And have a clear indicationthat the next parts of the challenge will be completely without any help


    Madness will consume you!!!

  13. #353
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    Quote Originally Posted by killwithpwr View Post
    I gotta agree with you there... But there are other ways to teach players how to play.
    Like, put a single player challenge in place like the Mage tower or the proving grounds, make the rewards a little more appealing for the wider audiences (such as mounts, pets and appearences) and make the challenges hard enough so that players have to invest a little time in reading their abilities and grow their knowledge of their class organicaly.
    Perhaps they can introduce an entry level challenge that will hold their hands like the Proving Grounds did... And have a clear indicationthat the next parts of the challenge will be completely without any help
    I’d be fine with anything that teaches people. My issue is when it carries them instead, so they develop egos and confidence that they are good, while they are actually bad

  14. #354
    I think one of the major reasons is Feedback. Not once when leveling are players confronted with a meaningful hurdle that challenges the way they play, and you can play at 110 doing end game content without receiving any feedback you are doing something wrong.

    For example, I play Elemental Shaman, and RNG procs are huge for an ele shaman. Earth and Frost Shock Overload procs, crit rate, Glove procs, boot procs, etc. all play a huge impact. Yet sometimes you just get completely screwed over by RNG. There was a normal argus kill where I was with another ele shaman geared roughly the same, but he had 100 million more Earth Shock damage over the fight because he had decent crit luck. I had around 47% crit chance, but only around 18% of my Earth Shocks actually crit.

    Then take last night on Heroic Varimathras. I play my build I use for mythic Aggramar (Icefury with Boots+Sephuz cause I don't want to switch), and I get complete ass damage. Only a 22% parse in 975 gear. Only 3 Maelstrom refunds from boots during the fight. I threw it in analyzer and noticed I had 8% downtime during that fight. I had necrotic only once so I lost ~ 5 seconds or so to that, but it meant I lost roughly 20 seconds elsewhere in the fight not casting when I was moving or stutter stepping, or running out of instant casts while running during fissure.

    Now without an analyzer, how would I know what I'm doing is wrong? How would I know that I'm playing wrongly when I could just blame bad RNG?

    Another example is dungeons. How many people have no idea of trash mechanics or certain boss mechanics? The game is awful at teaching players mechanics of trash and bosses. How many people stand in Avalanche without knowing what hit them in NL? Or Penetrating Shot in HoV? Hell, even mechanics that prevent you from attacking like the robot in Upper Karazhan people don't know whats going on. Because the punishment for screwing up mechanics is damage to the player, its much easier to blame the healer or run easy enough content to where it no longer matters.

    The only boss in dungeons that punishes a player for failing mechanics directly is Xavius in DHT, and players actually understand the growing paranoia/nightmare bolt mechanic on that fight pretty well. I think an easy step to push for better learning is to implement more debuff mechanics if you fail. For example, get hit with an avoidable mechanic, lose 30% haste for 5 seconds.

    But its clear, Blizzard has no problem with letting players walk around a hurdle if they choose.

  15. #355
    I'll be honest, the main reason I think people play this game poorly is because people don't want to play it good.
    The modern gamer mentality of "if something went wrong it's someone else's fault" really, REALLY hurts the average performance.
    No single person is flawless, it's the way you handle your flaws that counts. And many players just don't want to bother. And some of them come and blame those who eventually kicked them for "elitism". Most of the time it's not elitism, it's a form of equality of opportunity - when you perform well, you get the job, when you perform bad eventually you will lose it.

  16. #356
    Because they banned all rotation bots and now we have to focus on doing rotations instead of mechanics

  17. #357
    Quote Originally Posted by Grimreaper View Post
    Because you say so, right?
    If you can't understand something so obvious nobody can help you with that
    “Light thinks it travels faster than anything but it is wrong. No matter how fast light travels, it finds the darkness has always got there first, and is waiting for it.”

  18. #358
    To answer the thread title without reading OP: Because some people think it's too hard to install DBM and react to the warnings. You can practically sleep through some bosses (like Dual Doggos fight in Antorus).

  19. #359
    I actually had a friend that was ideologically set into playing with clicking and I really wanted her to play with me. So at some point we've found a solution - she played a healer with VuhDo and BAM! - we got into mythic during WoD and raided quite nicely. For other roles though, yeah, keybinds should go all the way, especially when tanking.

  20. #360
    Quote Originally Posted by Thaeha View Post
    It's funny how easily people who have been gaming for years forget that having the coordination just to even use your keyboard and mouse in conjunction to move and attack at the same time is a relatively advanced and difficult skill for the vast majority of adults who aren't used to gaming, and WoW attracts a lot of non-gamers and casual players who aren't nearly as advanced as all that.

    When my Dad plays WoW, he will have to stop moving, look down at the keyboard and find his number keys in order to start hitting his keybindings, and he spends most of the time looking at the keyboard to make sure he's hitting the right keys. He's just got no experience playing PC games and doesn't have the hand-eye coordination or muscle memory to use both his mouse AND keyboard at the same time while also being able to look at the screen, be aware of his position AND on top of that have the headspace to memorize mechanics and pay attention to the timers and announcements on a boss mod. He's cleared LFR playing like this, but he would never get anywhere in Heroic. It's not like he doesn't try, but he would need a lot of practice and time but due to work and other commitments he only plays for like 2-3 hours one evening a week.

    It's easy to forget when you're a 16-25 year old gamer that not everyone is on the same natural level as you are, and things that seem "easy" for you are long established skills you picked up with time.
    Mostly this. Most hardcore gamers have a serious learning bias in that once they've mastered a skill, they totally forget what the learning process was like. And for most players it's a long, hard road to even get to the point where they're "decent" even with all the resources in the world available to them. I have over ten thousand hours of experience across multitudes of games which allows me to jump into almost any game I play and start deconstructing the system because all that practice has drilled fundamental game literacy into my brain. This simply isn't the case for the vast majority of the gaming community and they need time and effort learning and being coached with good advice.

    Then you have the players who just can't due to some form of disability. For example, my 72 year old mother plays because she love farming and with constantly respawning nodes and mobs she doesn't have to worry about running out of things to "pick up" after an hour or so. She has plates in both wrists and has trouble using the mouse and keyboard. I helped her learn how to use the mouse to run around and made a one-button macro for her BM hunter and bound it to most of the keys on her keyboard so she can just hit it while running around. She barely does over 200k dps, but she's okay with that and its fine because she only queues for normal dungeons and sometimes raid finder if she ever gets bored of farming. There are a lot of gamers out there who simply cannot live up to the "standard" of being the best at something which is one important reason why "casual" content has to exist.

    But then there's also the crowd that likes "play for fun" or prefers to "play my way". They're the ones I don't waste my time with personally because they're either stupid or lazy. I "play for fun" too, but my fun is in learning how the game is designed and using those systems to overcome the challenge. People don't buy movies and then put the disc in the toaster then claim they like to "watch movies for fun" so why would they waste more money and time doing it with games? It's fucking baffling. If you want to play yourself instead of playing the game just go write fanfic or something.
    Last edited by sister; 2018-04-19 at 08:30 PM.

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