Why are people bad at wow/raiding.

[mjolnrik]

I loathe people like that.

Its certainly not ideal to not learn how to play your class or read up from people who have more experience, but there is a merit for experimenting your own talent choices or response to certain situtations.
Half the talents on my alt I wouldnt even consider trying just because its not written down on a guide, but they actually work well in certain situations.

[Pillerina]

I know this has a high chance of degenerating into a troll thread, but it's a question I genuinely ask myself while pugging.

Unless you're in a very ambitious mythic guild wow is a very easy game, both in terms of theory and mechanics.

1 read up your spec on icy veins
2 DL a boss mod, if you're a healer maybe DL some raid frames
3 go to wago and DL the highest rated WA package for your class, maybe a raid WA package like those from Reloe (both optional)
4 during encounter look at the output of your boss mod every 15-20 seconds

Congrats! You're a good heroic raider now and you can probably join and compete in a triple digit mythic guild.

So how is it that so many people struggle in heroic? Even if you don't do any of the above steps "move out of shit" alone will be enough for the vast majority of hc encounters and I don't think it takes any kind of talent to step out of shit on a scripted timer that announces what's coming up minutes in advance.

Let's get the obvious explanations out of the way first:
-People don't know the encounters: I mostly do my pugging in 960/965 groups, you have to clear HC a couple of times for that ilvl
-People just don't care: again - 960/965 groups full of angry nerds who will likely kick you if you fail too badly and not having to look for another group is a strong incentive I guess
I also encounter this problem in some mythic guilds where by definition people are at least a bit ambitious and obviously know the encounters.

Most people are bad at most things, ambition and capacity don't always correlate.

[Aesde]

People are bad cause game don’t force them to be good.

You easily can do wrong rotation, don’t use enchants, pots and flasks, don’t have interrupt on your bars and don’t follow the tactic and still have 120 and around 400 IL.

Then the people come to heroic raid or 10+ key and amazed, that’s the game suddenly demand from them to know the tactics, to execute rotation properly, to use consumables, to interrupt and to purge.

They are simply not prepared.
And why do they have to learn something, if they can fooling around on wq and have decent gear and collect pets, mounts and transmoge?

[Nnyco]

My gf doesn't want to read up on things because she doesn't want other people telling her how to play, instead she plays the way she wants even if it's not optimal but she's also having more fun that way.

Wouldnt that resolve in more people tellin her how to play, considerin people will start to explain everytime she fucks somethin because of lack of knowledge?

[Zantera]

There's a lot of people who aren't interested in getting better (or do the job necessary) and also don't push themselves (which is how you get better IMO). I was in a guild like that at the start of BFA until about 1 ½ month ago and it's the most frustrating thing. You're playing with people who keep dying to easy mechanics and they brush it off as "eh, shit happens" and when it comes to m+, people are depleting 10s but they have that mentality of "just gotta finish it and i get the weekly done". Going from that back to a good guild when people are looking to push keys and a +15 in time is brushed off as nothing special, it's a great feeling if you're that type of player yourself who invests time and you get something back.

And like others have said, that mentality of "i wanna play the way i want to, dont tell me what to do" is a TERRIBLE mentality for mythic raiding or even doing keys seriously. That's a fine mentality if you're a casual who is messing around in LFR and mythic 0s but generally I hate being around people like that.

[SirBeef]

I know this has a high chance of degenerating into a troll thread, but it's a question I genuinely ask myself while pugging.

Unless you're in a very ambitious mythic guild wow is a very easy game, both in terms of theory and mechanics.

1 read up your spec on icy veins
2 DL a boss mod, if you're a healer maybe DL some raid frames
3 go to wago and DL the highest rated WA package for your class, maybe a raid WA package like those from Reloe (both optional)
4 during encounter look at the output of your boss mod every 15-20 seconds

Congrats! You're a good heroic raider now and you can probably join and compete in a triple digit mythic guild.

So how is it that so many people struggle in heroic? Even if you don't do any of the above steps "move out of shit" alone will be enough for the vast majority of hc encounters and I don't think it takes any kind of talent to step out of shit on a scripted timer that announces what's coming up minutes in advance.

Let's get the obvious explanations out of the way first:
-People don't know the encounters: I mostly do my pugging in 960/965 groups, you have to clear HC a couple of times for that ilvl
-People just don't care: again - 960/965 groups full of angry nerds who will likely kick you if you fail too badly and not having to look for another group is a strong incentive I guess
I also encounter this problem in some mythic guilds where by definition people are at least a bit ambitious and obviously know the encounters.

1, it's a game and most people do not gave 2 shits about researching information to become a better player. HAs been like this for ever.
2, most peole don't want to bother with going to third party sites to download addons to help them play the game better.
3, did I mention it's just a game?
4, most adults need to experience something 26 times before it becomes rote. So if you are entering a new encounter, you can explain everything perfectly, they could understand everything perfectly, but until they see the encounter a bit, most won't get it. Add to that if they are doing it wrong most of the time, they will learn it wrong and have a hard time breaking that habit to learn it right. Most PuGs won't give the time of day let alone, be patient enough for others to learn.
4, plus it's just a danmed game and most people don't care much about it.

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itt: someone justifying clicking

incredible

MT's all through Cata as a clicker, Cleared all the raids in Heroic. It wasn't until I found some logitech keaybaord with a crap ton of extra buttons on the side that I started using hotkeys, then evolved to a keypad. Ijust never had the dexterity in my hands to use function keys, numbers, all while using the keyboard for movement. I'll never go back, but it is totally justified if someone prefers to do that.

[Spiral Mage]

Why are people so bad at *anything* when there's an easy fix?

It's really strange. All around you, you can see people putting tremendous effort into finding excuses to avoid fixing their problems and usually fixing the problem is considerably easier than continuing to deal with it and requires less effort than fighting it or making excuses for it but they fight as hard as they can against it. And no matter how hard you fight, or whatever excuses you use, it will not make your problem go away. You can blame someone, or something else, but your problem will still be there tomorrow, and the day after that, and the day after that and you will still be unhappy because of it.

Even if fixing your problem is gonna be a pain in the ass, once it's done, it's done. You never have to deal with it again. If not, you will just keep having to deal with it.

[Coffer]

Why are people so bad at *anything* when there's an easy fix?

It's really strange. All around you, you can see people putting tremendous effort into finding excuses to avoid fixing their problems and usually fixing the problem is considerably easier than continuing to deal with it and requires less effort than fighting it or making excuses for it but they fight as hard as they can against it. And no matter how hard you fight, or whatever excuses you use, it will not make your problem go away. You can blame someone, or something else, but your problem will still be there tomorrow, and the day after that, and the day after that and you will still be unhappy because of it.

Even if fixing your problem is gonna be a pain in the ass, once it's done, it's done. You never have to deal with it again. If not, you will just keep having to deal with it.

It doesn't take tremendous effort to simply, you know, not care about improving. BFA in particular gives you no incentive to get better but enough incentives to just kick back and relax, and so long as that continues to be the case, "not being good" at things like raiding won't be a problem.

[KronoFett]

Why are people so bad at *anything* when there's an easy fix?

It's really strange. All around you, you can see people putting tremendous effort into finding excuses to avoid fixing their problems and usually fixing the problem is considerably easier than continuing to deal with it and requires less effort than fighting it or making excuses for it but they fight as hard as they can against it. And no matter how hard you fight, or whatever excuses you use, it will not make your problem go away. You can blame someone, or something else, but your problem will still be there tomorrow, and the day after that, and the day after that and you will still be unhappy because of it.

Even if fixing your problem is gonna be a pain in the ass, once it's done, it's done. You never have to deal with it again. If not, you will just keep having to deal with it.

Great post. It's always easier for people to blame "X" and "Y" for their problems rather than apply effort to change themselves. Change is hard for people.

[Zantera]

It's all about the people you play with as well. If you're mediocre and you're in a mediocre guild with other players that ain't good, chances are you won't even realize how much you're underperforming. With better guilds there's usually a raidleader or officer who looks through logs and will point out to someone if they are playing badly.

[RoKPaNda]

Some people take this game way too seriously. I don't find much in this game particularly challenging to learn, but it doesn't bother me that the vast majority of players are mediocre. I mean, it's a video game. Who cares? Now if someone in your group is holding it back, by all means remove them or try to teach them. At the end of the day though it's just a game. I have casuals friends that are absolutely horrible at the game, but that's their choice, I just don't do any content with them where it'll be a chore because they're bad.

[Otimus]

Because you can literally do everything in the game, everything, pretty much, save for only TWO things (Raiding outside of LFR and Mythic+) without knowing what you're doing is wrong.

This is Blizzard's fault. They designed it this way. They neither teach players how to play nor give incentive for players to learn as they play. The game literally goes from a difficulty level of 1 to something much higher when you step into those things. Can you really freaking blame people? They've probably spent 100+ hours spamming the same two or three spells over and over and having presents showered on them, given 110 levels of progress, and lots and lots of things along the way. At no point does the game go "No, you did this wrong, and now you're doing to get killed." It says "Oh, you can do whatever you want and win!".

Players aren't "bad". Most aren't even given the opportunity to be good OR bad. They don't even know how to freaking play the game "right", because they were told the wrong way was right. This is probably why this game has always had a problem with retaining people. Once they get to the "end", they realize that the game they played before, and the game they play now, are two entirely different things, and it probably isn't worth the bother. That's also why Blizzard has probably started putting in so many more things to artificially slow down people. It's probably easier and cheaper than actually bothering to do things that'll actually make the game better for those people.

and the problem isn't finders existing. The core problem is the entire leveling experience. Finders have nothing to do with this, and are an easy scapegoat.

[Tyrilion]

Because you say so, right?

No because it is shown in the MDIs, WF races, those who bind, and make that little extra effort go way further than those who done. Its Fact. if you dont like that method of play fine, but dont try and deny it makes a player better.

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My GF doesn't want to read up on things because she doesn't want other people telling her how to play, instead, she plays the way she wants even if it's not optimal but she's also having more fun that way.

Id hate raiding with your GF, such a selfish style of play, holding her team back because "i dont wanna be told how to play the right way Wahh" ... she either needs to grow up or stop raiding.

[drbatman]

if it is as easy as steps 1, 2, 3, 4, how come everybody isnt in a top 10 mythic guild?

I mean baseball is easy you just hit a ball with a stick and run, why is that so hard?

why do people suck at baseball?

I think im gonna go read the 4 tips to success in baseball and join the major leagues baby!

[quite an expert in wow]

Because you can literally do everything in the game, everything, pretty much, save for only TWO things (Raiding outside of LFR and Mythic+) without knowing what you're doing is wrong.

This is Blizzard's fault. They designed it this way. They neither teach players how to play nor give incentive for players to learn as they play. The game literally goes from a difficulty level of 1 to something much higher when you step into those things. Can you really freaking blame people? They've probably spent 100+ hours spamming the same two or three spells over and over and having presents showered on them, given 110 levels of progress, and lots and lots of things along the way. At no point does the game go "No, you did this wrong, and now you're doing to get killed." It says "Oh, you can do whatever you want and win!".

Players aren't "bad". Most aren't even given the opportunity to be good OR bad. They don't even know how to freaking play the game "right", because they were told the wrong way was right. This is probably why this game has always had a problem with retaining people. Once they get to the "end", they realize that the game they played before, and the game they play now, are two entirely different things, and it probably isn't worth the bother. That's also why Blizzard has probably started putting in so many more things to artificially slow down people. It's probably easier and cheaper than actually bothering to do things that'll actually make the game better for those people.

and the problem isn't finders existing. The core problem is the entire leveling experience. Finders have nothing to do with this, and are an easy scapegoat.

There is only so much Blizzard can do. And there are actually tooltips and stuff available. Most people find them annoying though and disable them. There is so much information available that explains in-depth what to do, that I don't agree Blizzard should help players even more to become better. It's mostly a mentality thing. I know people that just accept a certain level and don't want to get 'better'. There is nothing wrong with that. Sure, some will blame externals and are delusional, but they will find out they are wrong eventually.

'Bad' players will sooner or later be confronted by their playstyle in some way. For example by pugging and getting a dick comment from someone. They can either suck it up and improve, or just don't do anything with it.

The information is there. Handling it in the right way is the task of the one in front of his PC.

[Kirbypro]

Simply because its too easy for casual players to get into hardcore content. Casual players don't belong in hardcore content. If a player doesn't feel like reading spec guides, learning rotation, optimizing gear, its OK. It doesn't mean they are degenerates that are an insult to some elitist's sensibility. It just means the casual player has gauged the level of play that is enjoyable to them.

That said, since they have only committed to a low level of effort, they should only get low amount of content. They should just be doing some dungeons and call it a day. No raids, no mythic+. Its too easy to get into raids, LFR, group finder normals and heroics, mythic+.

[Ealyssa]

People are "bad" at pretty much everything.

-Why that guy you've seen for more than 5 years in the gym is still just skinny fat ?
-Why that coworker still isn't fired ?
-Why are so many people playing tennis like they just grabbed a racquet for the first time ?
-How can you still fail at coocking pasta after 30 years on earth ?
-Postal service


Only a very small percentage of the population has the drive to put dedication in the things they like and do, be it work or hobbies. Most of humans just surf the wave of the easy way until death.

The entitlement being especially high in online gaming. They paid, they are owed, they deserve playing in level higher than their skill. Expecting to be carried by others.
That's why most of those leech hate the concept of individual ranking/scoring. Like raider.io or ELO scores.

[Otimus]

There is only so much Blizzard can do. And there are actually tooltips and stuff available. Most people find them annoying though and disable them. There is so much information available that explains in-depth what to do, that I don't agree Blizzard should help players even more to become better. It's mostly a mentality thing. I know people that just accept a certain level and don't want to get 'better'. There is nothing wrong with that. Sure, some will blame externals and are delusional, but they will find out they are wrong eventually.

'Bad' players will sooner or later be confronted by their playstyle in some way. For example by pugging and getting a dick comment from someone. They can either suck it up and improve, or just don't do anything with it.

The information is there. Handling it in the right way is the task of the one in front of his PC.

Okay, fine, whatever, what about 99.99% of the content being able to be completed, well, and rewarded, again, well, without knowing anything? You totally glossed over that part, which was the entire crux of what I just said. Like, I don't think it's absurd to say like, getting past level 60 should require you to know the basic functions of the game, right? But it doesn't. Getting past fucking level 120 and an ilvl near 400 doesn't. Doing anything except Mythic+ and Non-LFR raiding doesn't. There's only so much Blizzard can do? How about, like, anything? Because they've effectively done nothing.

WoW has a gigantic difficulty curve problem. Literally all of it except two parts are easy. You don't go 1-2-3-10. You go 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9-10.

This is entirely Blizzard's fault. Now, if a player knowingly knows the game is this way, and expects otherwise, then it's their fault. But it's Blizzard's fault that the game is designed the way that it is, which is a pretty damned bad design.

[Garymorilix]

Okay, fine, whatever, what about 99.99% of the content being able to be completed, well, and rewarded, again, well, without knowing anything? You totally glossed over that part, which was the entire crux of what I just said. Like, I don't think it's absurd to say like, getting past level 60 should require you to know the basic functions of the game, right? But it doesn't. Getting past fucking level 120 and an ilvl near 400 doesn't. Doing anything except Mythic+ and Non-LFR raiding doesn't. There's only so much Blizzard can do? How about, like, anything? Because they've effectively done nothing.

WoW has a gigantic difficulty curve problem. Literally all of it except two parts are easy. You don't go 1-2-3-10. You go 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9-10.

This is entirely Blizzard's fault. Now, if a player knowingly knows the game is this way, and expects otherwise, then it's their fault. But it's Blizzard's fault that the game is designed the way that it is, which is a pretty damned bad design.

Wow. Game has been badly designed since 2004 then. Or maybe what you consider bad design is just the design.

WoW's been out for 15 years and it only got more accessible with every expansion. There are more opportunities now to get good at something than there ever was before. As far as PvE we have 4 raid difficulties, infinite M+. If someone wants to engage in one given difficulty level they have every possiblity to do so.

Most of the difficulty whiners are just that, whiners. You don't take them seriously. These people don't have the will to improve. You can't cater to them when it comes to difficult group content.
I did Uldir HC back then with some social guilds (I have already pugged all of it many times before) just for the fun of it. This was progress raid for them. They had randomly selected talents + randomly selected azerite traits, they chose them by talking to each other not by looking up anything on the net. I tried to suggest them to look up things but they didn't care. They never got curved as a guild as far as I know.

Point is, you can't balance difficult content around people who don't care. BoD HC is easy if you learn the mechanics, yet I still see people who don't know what to do on the first few bosses.

Raiding is not something that Blizz can just force people to do. I'm very eager to hear what your idea of "training ppl ingame" would be like. Especially at lv60. Cuz in reality the moment you force casuals and otherwise bad players to engage in difficult content they abandon the fck out of the game.
Imagine the Mage Tower challenge being mandatory for everyone to beat to go to Argus. People couldn't do that in Antorus gear, and it was balanced around ToS gear (And they were pretty easy, I only didn't manage to do them with 2 classes cuz no max level).

Leveling was always easy.
Questing was always easy.
What else is there except m+ and raids?

[PogYou]

Because apparently games are too hard for people. Imagine what kind of drooling people they are irl.