The real problem of why the raiding scene is becoming more Horde only

[McFuu]

They will, though. The problem actively has to involve something ENCOURAGING people to go alliance, and it has to be free if Blizz actually wants to turn this around. Horde was simply better for years and years, and now we're at the point that it's SO lopsided that you are putting yourself at a huge disadvantage simply by being Alliance - you lose the ability to recruit 90% of the raiding population. EVERY guild needs that capability unless you're extreme top end. The raider pool has to trickle down, and unlike reaganomics it actually does work (as we saw when it shifted horde, this has already happened once, there's no reason it couldn't happen again). The lower guilds won't move over on their own because they'll just die out. You have to be a guild that people are willing to faction transfer to join, which is an extremely small portion of the population.

You are missing the point, the is no reason for anyone to switch back to Alliance. So no one will. If they create a reason to switch back, all the guilds will switch. If they remove the reason for the switch (racials) then up and coming raiders on Alliance have no reason to switch.

The population is never, never going to equalize.

[theyanger]

You are missing the point, the is no reason for anyone to switch back to Alliance. So no one will. If they create a reason to switch back, all the guilds will switch. If they remove the reason for the switch (racials) then up and coming raiders on Alliance have no reason to switch.

The population is never, never going to equalize.

"All the guilds will switch" is such a gross miscalculation. It took a DECADE of horde imbalance for it to get like it is. If they make Alliance OP for one-2 expansions it'd probably equalize naturally. Your'e right they have to actually make alliance more attractive than horde, I said that. There's no other way. They f'd up for too long.

[McFuu]

"All the guilds will switch" is such a gross miscalculation. It took a DECADE of horde imbalance for it to get like it is. If they make Alliance OP for one-2 expansions it'd probably equalize naturally. Your'e right they have to actually make alliance more attractive than horde, I said that. There's no other way. They f'd up for too long.

Let me rephrase, all the guilds and players that care about racials are going to switch. Pretty much the same people that switched from alliance to horde in the first place. The people this whole thread is about.
Honestly the really isn't an issue, we are just pretending there is, but this is how the balance has worked out and there will be no fixing it.
In reality, it would have worked out this way for the top end folks, they would have went to one faction at the end of the day to be as competitive as possible.

[Strakha]

just get rid of racials for once and all and let people play the character they want based on aesthetics. the fact there is a 'right and wrong' choice of a race to pick for min maxing is terrible design. especially when you have +10% rep and then gate things behind rep.

[theyanger]

Let me rephrase, all the guilds and players that care about racials are going to switch. Pretty much the same people that switched from alliance to horde in the first place. The people this whole thread is about.
Honestly the really isn't an issue, we are just pretending there is, but this is how the balance has worked out and there will be no fixing it.
In reality, it would have worked out this way for the top end folks, they would have went to one faction at the end of the day to be as competitive as possible.

Eventually, yes that would happen. But there's no reason it has to be that way. It wasn't an overnight thing for alliance->horde, and it wouldn't be for horde->alliance either. All they need to do is wait for the tide to turn enough and then balance things out. There is plenty of room for there to be both, there was balance for quite a while. Like I said, it took A DECADE of horde being vastly superior to get to where we are now.

Even Method resisted swapping for ages.

[McFuu]

Eventually, yes that would happen. But there's no reason it has to be that way. It wasn't an overnight thing for alliance->horde, and it wouldn't be for horde->alliance either. All they need to do is wait for the tide to turn enough and then balance things out. There is plenty of room for there to be both, there was balance for quite a while. Like I said, it took A DECADE of horde being vastly superior to get to where we are now.

Even Method resisted swapping for ages.

This still will all be simply resolved by removing racials in raids. It's the stem of the problem, and without a competitive disadvantage some people would return to Alliance, and new raiders wouldn't feel compelled to have to switch to Horde.

The game doesn't get broken, we won't go 2 expansions (your time line) with the only successful guilds being the ones that switched to Alliance.

I don't know why people want to break the game to fix what is essentially a non-issue. Remove racials and some rebalancing will occur over time. Do any of the other asinine suggestions in the thread and it's simply breaking the game because you want it, for some reason, to be a race between horde and alliance. It's PvE, no one gives a shit what faction downs a raid first, they only care who and how they did it.

[Emerald Archer]

and new raiders wouldn't feel compelled to have to switch to Horde.

Except people switch to horde now, not because of racials. People switch because the best raiders and guilds, they're all on horde.

Guild looking for the best pool of players to recruit from? Horde.
Player looking for the best guild to raid in? Horde.

For raiding atleast, you don't switch to horde for racials. You seem to think in raids that horde racials are best? When in reality they're very even and which race is best changes for each spec. Human racial is busted strong for a lot of specs.

Removing racials, literally does nothing. Because no one is switching because of racials. This isn't 3 expansions ago. That stopped being a thing a long time ago.

Remove racials and no rebalancing will occur over time, because racials being equal and racials being gone are the same thing when it comes to your "rebalancing" theory. And it has confirmed what any reasonable person can see, racial imbalance is not a thing in raids, it's not a reason to transfer.

Horde have the better and larger player/guild pool because of racial imbalance that happened many years ago. The racials now are not the issue.

But yes, you're right that people suggesting they make alliance racials op to force a rebalance is quite stupid.

[GasaiYuno951]

I mean.. usually new players or kids play Alliance because "They are the good guys" or "I can be Goku with the big muscles and super saiyan hair!"

actually because of that mentality, there are more children and or new players playing horde then alliance.

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Except people switch to horde now, not because of racials. People switch because the best raiders and guilds, they're all on horde.

Guild looking for the best pool of players to recruit from? Horde.
Player looking for the best guild to raid in? Horde.

For raiding atleast, you don't switch to horde for racials. You seem to think in raids that horde racials are best? When in reality they're very even and which race is best changes for each spec. Human racial is busted strong for a lot of specs.

Removing racials, literally does nothing. Because no one is switching because of racials. This isn't 3 expansions ago. That stopped being a thing a long time ago.

Remove racials and no rebalancing will occur over time, because racials being equal and racials being gone are the same thing when it comes to your "rebalancing" theory. And it has confirmed what any reasonable person can see, racial imbalance is not a thing in raids, it's not a reason to transfer.

Horde have the better and larger player/guild pool because of racial imbalance that happened many years ago. The racials now are not the issue.

But yes, you're right that people suggesting they make alliance racials op to force a rebalance is quite stupid.

but the damage was done 3 xpacs ago and its to costly to move back to alliance

[Emerald Archer]

but the damage was done 3 xpacs ago and its to costly to move back to alliance

Yes but creating more imbalance is not a good option to solve it. Free changes is one thing, but intentionally heavily outbalancing racials for 2 expansions? That's a terrible solution.

[McFuu]

Except people switch to horde now, not because of racials. People switch because the best raiders and guilds, they're all on horde.

Guild looking for the best pool of players to recruit from? Horde.
Player looking for the best guild to raid in? Horde.

For raiding atleast, you don't switch to horde for racials. You seem to think in raids that horde racials are best? When in reality they're very even and which race is best changes for each spec. Human racial is busted strong for a lot of specs.

Removing racials, literally does nothing. Because no one is switching because of racials. This isn't 3 expansions ago. That stopped being a thing a long time ago.

Remove racials and no rebalancing will occur over time, because racials being equal and racials being gone are the same thing when it comes to your "rebalancing" theory. And it has confirmed what any reasonable person can see, racial imbalance is not a thing in raids, it's not a reason to transfer.

Horde have the better and larger player/guild pool because of racial imbalance that happened many years ago. The racials now are not the issue.

But yes, you're right that people suggesting they make alliance racials op to force a rebalance is quite stupid.

You are just echoing what I've already said. It's never going to switch back or "rebalance". What I mean by rebalance is there will be less of a rush over, only the top are the ones looking to play Horde. But "casual mythic" raiders can go wherever they want, and largely will. With racials gone one race is the same as any other.
The top end competitive guys will stay Horde because why bother switching, but why do we even care about them.

[Emerald Archer]

You are just echoing what I've already said. It's never going to switch back or "rebalance". What I mean by rebalance is there will be less of a rush over, only the top are the ones looking to play Horde. But "casual mythic" raiders can go wherever they want, and largely will. With racials gone one race is the same as any other.
The top end competitive guys will stay Horde because why bother switching, but why do we even care about them.

Yes but you also suggest disabling talents as a way to rebalance. Which won't rebalance anything.

People aren't "rushing over" because of racials, in fact I checked, more alliance races are better for specs than horde.

It's like 15 Alliance -10 Horde (BM was a point for both because it depends on the build it runs, which can be either)

"Casual mythic" raiders, need hordes population more than high end raiders. They struggle with having enough mythic raiders way more than high end raiding guilds.

Yes our opinions mostly line up, but you talk like alliance racials aren't better in raid right now. And you talk like people switch to horde because horde racials are better.

[theyanger]

Disbaling Racials has a 0% chance of fixing anything. "Balance" just encourages people to remain where they are. Even if they made horde->ally transfers free, the impact would be miniscule: Horde still would have the advantage that the players are on that faction, ergo it is 'free' or cheaper to try people out. Easier to recruit. It's the EXACT issue that existed on pve servers when you couldn't transfer pve->pvp, players from pvp servers wouldn't transfer to pve server guilds (evne good ones) because if they failed or the guild died or whatever they would be stuck.

In this case, if you go ally and you recruit someone, even if they came freely to ally at no cost, they then are forced to stay ally or spend money swapping back. This deters them from doing it at all to begin with.

A net 0 balance has literally no chance to solve the issue unless you simply strip cost from all faction transfers, gamewide. That's the only actual way to make people go ally without making them strictly better: By making it a non-factor costwise no matter what.

Yes but you also suggest disabling talents as a way to rebalance. Which won't rebalance anything.

People aren't "rushing over" because of racials, in fact I checked, more alliance races are better for specs than horde.

It's like 15 Alliance -10 Horde (BM was a point for both because it depends on the build it runs, which can be either)

"Casual mythic" raiders, need hordes population more than high end raiders. They struggle with having enough mythic raiders way more than high end raiding guilds.

Yes our opinions mostly line up, but you talk like alliance racials aren't better in raid right now. And you talk like people switch to horde because horde racials are better.

What? So you're saying it's ALMOST balanced from a dps perspective, yet horde also has every single game breaking utility racial. Horde is miles better for pve and has been sicne Wrath.

[xcitng]

Yes but you also suggest disabling talents as a way to rebalance. Which won't rebalance anything.

People aren't "rushing over" because of racials, in fact I checked, more alliance races are better for specs than horde.

It's like 15 Alliance -10 Horde (BM was a point for both because it depends on the build it runs, which can be either)

"Casual mythic" raiders, need hordes population more than high end raiders. They struggle with having enough mythic raiders way more than high end raiding guilds.

Yes our opinions mostly line up, but you talk like alliance racials aren't better in raid right now. And you talk like people switch to horde because horde racials are better.

Uhh you sure about that? between gobo jump for KJ, BE racial being the best thing in competitive m+ & blood fury doing stuff like giving extra GCD's for fury warrior in their burst windows, I didn't see any horde guilds rushing to alliance for a final boss like multiple guilds went horde for KJ....

[Emerald Archer]

What? So you're saying it's ALMOST balanced from a dps perspective, yet horde also has every single game breaking utility racial. Horde is miles better for pve and has been sicne Wrath.

The topic is strictly raiding. Those "Game breaking utility racials" (Assume you're talking about torrent?) isn't a factor in raiding. People will go what gives the most dps.

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Uhh you sure about that? between gobo jump for KJ, BE racial being the best thing in competitive m+ & blood fury doing stuff like giving extra GCD's for fury warrior in their burst windows, I didn't see any horde guilds rushing to alliance for a final boss like multiple guilds went horde for KJ....

Goblin was only very early on in KJ and not relevant outside of a few of the top guilds. But if your argument is using people from the 1% of the 1% of the 1%. Sure.

BE racial is meaningless, when the conversation was strictly about raiding. People in raid go what does the most dps or what they think looks the best. It's so rare for BE racial to be important in a raid. Antorus would be what? Just Portal Keeper? And even then it's not a fuss on that boss.

Also, why are you using 1 dps spec as an example? When overall more specs prefere alliance racials. That Fury comment is a bit pointless.

The top few guilds are not the majority, they are not even a drop in the pond of horde to alliance imbalance, and which guilds transferred to horde for KJ for goblin? I'm curious which actually changed because of goblin racial. I knew of a few guilds who race changed most of their guild, but they were already horde.

[Ningjinq]

With how competitive M+ is becoming, I wouldn’t say utility racials are irrelevant anymore. Especially because the 2 communities have a very large amount of overlap.

[Sandraudiga]

With how competitive M+ is becoming, I wouldn’t say utility racials are irrelevant anymore. Especially because the 2 communities have a very large amount of overlap.

I agree with that, but I'm with others in believing that intentionally making alliance racial more powerful would be the wrong way to go about it. The new raiding achievements are a good way to slowly help.

That being said, the abilities of the allied races are a bit too powerful compared to base races imo with a slight horde bias. I wish they'd simply remove them, or make them non throughput.

[Emerald Archer]

That being said, the abilities of the allied races are a bit too powerful compared to base races imo

Most of the allied racials have been pretty bad though? Middle of the pack typically.

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With how competitive M+ is becoming, I wouldn’t say utility racials are irrelevant anymore. Especially because the 2 communities have a very large amount of overlap.

While yes that's true, before M+ was a thing, the imbalance existed and was slowly pushing further towards horde.

M+ existing ofc sped up the ever-increasing imbalance, and highlighted some notable utility imbalances moreso than previously, but even if racials were always disabled in m+ or if there was perfect balance for m+, the horde imbalance would still exist and more and more people would continue to swap.

[Sandraudiga]

[QUOTE=Emerald Archer;49281370]Most of the allied racials have been pretty bad though? Middle of the pack typically.

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Not really, I mean Highmountain tauren are going to be extremely powerful for tanking with vers as well as a flat amount taken from each attack that scales with stamina as well as an aoe interupt/knockdown. Nightborn ones are about on par overall.

Similar on alliance side with Lightforged Dranei being kinda crap, but Void Elves get a teleport, no spellcasting delays and a good dps cooldown with good RPPM.

Hard to compare the others since we only know the racials for Mag'har orcs as far as I am aware, but their DPS cooldown racials is really strong and reduced duration of poisons/diseases/curses, but doesn't seem to scale so won't be as powerful later on in xpacs.

From a raiding perspective I'd put the tank benefits of highmountain tauren ahead of the dps cooldown of void elves, but only by a tiny amount. More the disparity of these racials versus some of the base racials. Don't have any math so I could be completely wrong, just seems like they wanted to the allied races to have good racials so people would play them. The more cynical me is aware of the cost of race changes, and how many of my guildies made use of them.

[Emerald Archer]

[QUOTE=Sandraudiga;49281405]

Most of the allied racials have been pretty bad though? Middle of the pack typically.

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Not really, I mean Highmountain tauren are going to be extremely powerful for tanking with vers as well as a flat amount taken from each attack that scales with stamina as well as an aoe interupt/knockdown. Nightborn ones are about on par overall.

Similar on alliance side with Lightforged Dranei being kinda crap, but Void Elves get a teleport, no spellcasting delays and a good dps cooldown with good RPPM.

Hard to compare the others since we only know the racials for Mag'har orcs as far as I am aware, but their DPS cooldown racials is really strong and reduced duration of poisons/diseases/curses, but doesn't seem to scale so won't be as powerful later on in xpacs.

From a raiding perspective I'd put the tank benefits of highmountain tauren ahead of the dps cooldown of void elves, but only by a tiny amount. More the disparity of these racials versus some of the base racials. Don't have any math so I could be completely wrong, just seems like they wanted to the allied races to have good racials so people would play them. The more cynical me is aware of the cost of race changes, and how many of my guildies made use of them.

Highmountain seemed really good at first for tanks, but it's just not anything crazy, it's not miles ahead of anything. I'm pretty sure it isn't even best for all tanks.

Void elves have the teleport sure, that's nice and all, but their dps cd is not very good at all, and the spellcasting thing isn't notable in pve. So pure dps wise they are not the best, nothing really that notable, can't compare to things like human, dwarf, troll, belf, etc. (Which ones are better changes for each spec ofc) But the blink is nice for predictable movement. Not too sure it's worth 15k dps over a fight (which is what it's behind by for something like MM on avg)

Nightborne and Lightforged are actual bin. Lightforged is useless for dps gain and Nightborne only works on magical dmg and even then is not nearly or even close to being the best race for magical classes.

It's 7th for Aff and 4th for Frost mage.

As for the others, nothing to be said until sims come out.

So Void elf and Highmountain are the only non-bin ones. And even then, I'm struggling to find a spec who has void elf as close to best. At least close enough so that the blink in situations can end in a higher dmg gain.

I know it fits such a nice story, "Blizzard creates new races with over powered racials to force players into paying to change race" but that just isn't how its been so far. Which is disappointing, I'd have loved to have a reason to race change to a new race.

[Sandraudiga]

[QUOTE=Emerald Archer;49281433]

Highmountain seemed really good at first for tanks, but it's just not anything crazy, it's not miles ahead of anything. I'm pretty sure it isn't even best for all tanks.

Void elves have the teleport sure, that's nice and all, but their dps cd is not very good at all, and the spellcasting thing isn't notable in pve. So pure dps wise they are not the best, nothing really that notable, can't compare to things like human, dwarf, troll, belf, etc. (Which ones are better changes for each spec ofc) But the blink is nice for predictable movement. Not too sure it's worth 15k dps over a fight (which is what it's behind by for something like MM on avg)

Nightborne and Lightforged are actual bin. Lightforged is useless for dps gain and Nightborne only works on magical dmg and even then is not nearly or even close to being the best race for magical classes.

It's 7th for Aff and 4th for Frost mage.

As for the others, nothing to be said until sims come out.

So Void elf and Highmountain are the only non-bin ones. And even then, I'm struggling to find a spec who has void elf as close to best. At least close enough so that the blink in situations can end in a higher dmg gain.

I know it fits such a nice story, "Blizzard creates new races with over powered racials to force players into paying to change race" but that just isn't how its been so far. Which is disappointing, I'd have loved to have a reason to race change to a new race.

Yeah, when I said on par I meant more on par with base races rather than on par with Void Elf and Highmountain tauren, obviously with some exceptions where base races have a good racial to compare. I know as a dps class I'd choose void elf if I could, the 5% buff would be up with every use of my wings including the initial burst given its 33% proc rate and 1 minute internal CD. Atm in legion that would pull ahead of human stat bonus racial, though unsure if it will in legion given crusade might not be our best talent choice.

I do think Highmountain Tauren will be the number one tank class, esp if the base damage reduction works on magical attacks. Unsure if it does, still powerful if it doesn't and dominant if it does. Like for a dot does it reduce each tick by that amount, or is it calculated on max damage and reduces each tick by a smaller amount? Been a couple weeks since I played a highmountain tauren on alpha, but I believe it is supposed to be around 360ish damage reduced at 120 in dungeon gear. Not game breaking, but can't think of a better defensive racial. I think the only one that would come close would be Stoneform? Happy to be corrected if I am missing one.

Don't really think the blink of Void Elf is great in and of itself since it takes multiple presses and you have to wait for the void portal thing to get to where you want to go, will take at least 2 GCDs to use properly. Though with the overall slowed down combat on alpha its not as bad as it would be on live.