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  1. #181
    Deleted
    Two differences tbh. Round and bouncy differences.

  2. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by Powerogue View Post

    "Isn't it obvious, warchief? I serve the Horde."

    Would she betray the horde if it came down to a choice between her ambitions to control Lordaeron for the forsaken and conquer death itself and the best interests of the horde? We don't know. I feel like this is the expansion where we'll find out, one way or the other.
    She wouldn't, simply because betraying the horde will bite her in the ass and I think she knows that all too well.

    She can accomplish way more at the head of the horde than as an exiled horde.

  3. #183
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    No thanks to Elisande, mind you.
    clearly she doesnt partecipated to the insurrection but anyway without that initial bargain they all died.
    elysande had to made a choise and she predict right, clearly not interpreting what would happen in the middle

    Quote Originally Posted by Leodric View Post
    I am not arguing that DKs can't control lesser undeads. My point was that Sylvanas was not controlled by Arthas at that point but by the Lich King.

    Sylvanas Windrunner: How could I not? For some reason I no longer hear the Lich King's voice in my head. My will is my own once again.
    Sylvanas Windrunner: You dreadlords seem to know why.
    Varimathras: We've discovered that the Lich King is losing his power! As it wanes, so too does his ability to command undead such as you.

    Also, you compare Sylvanas, a Banshee Queen to a common Undead. I don't think Blizzard intended that a DK would be able to control someone like her.
    and nobody is saying that scourge isnt linked to the lk, but the power to command could be passed at will between the member. in all the campaing we see nathrezims and arthas passing the control of ghouls and zombies...
    then arthas even ressed and controlled a frost wyrm with his power alone (ch4 legacy of the damned), why he should be in difficult with a banshee?

  4. #184
    Quote Originally Posted by omeomorfismo View Post
    clearly she doesnt partecipated to the insurrection but anyway without that initial bargain they all died.
    elysande had to made a choise and she predict right, clearly not interpreting what would happen in the middle
    Again, she wasn't right. You'd have a point if she did all that she did knowing the heroes of the Alliance and the Horde would come, defeat her and the Legion, and save her people. But she didn't. And she told us so. The nightborne who served the Legion? Those are either dead or imprisoned. Likely dead. The ones who got saved were the ones who were subjugated, the ones that were being taken to feel the soul engines. We know that the Legion doesn't really keep up their promises. The nightborne's fate was sealed, either way. Her people was saved in spite of Elisande.

  5. #185
    I dont want to join the circlejerk around Sylvanas, but... I'd rather get bombed by an iron star than by a plague bomb only to be denied eternal rest and be forced to serve the one who killed me in the first place. And before someone says that each new forsaken is given a choice, that was maybe canon in Cata, but not now for sure. Sylvanas specifically orders to kill them so she can raise them. You'd be a fool to think that she murders a whole village just to give them choice of serving her. The post-Legion generation of forsaken are surely being brainwashed.

  6. #186
    Quote Originally Posted by keymil View Post
    I dont want to join the circlejerk around Sylvanas, but... I'd rather get bombed by an iron star than by a plague bomb only to be denied eternal rest and be forced to serve the one who killed me in the first place. And before someone says that each new forsaken is given a choice, that was maybe canon in Cata, but not now for sure. Sylvanas specifically orders to kill them so she can raise them. You'd be a fool to think that she murders a whole village just to give them choice of serving her. The post-Legion generation of forsaken are surely being brainwashed.
    The only teeny tiny problem wiht that being, if Sylvanas intended to raise them don't you think she would prehaps just maaaaybe send somebody capable of ressurrecting them as a part of the assalut?

  7. #187
    They are setting Sylvanas / Nathanos up so she / he can leave the Horde to teach Dark Rangers, I have been saying it for some time now and it is becoming more obvious.
    “If you don't believe me that is too damn bad!”

  8. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by sighy View Post
    The only teeny tiny problem wiht that being, if Sylvanas intended to raise them don't you think she would prehaps just maaaaybe send somebody capable of ressurrecting them as a part of the assalut?
    Why? She usually (at least as shown in the starting zone) has the corpses taken to Deathknell. Why should she risk her few remaining Val'kyr when she has all the time in the world to clean up after a fight and take it slow?

    I mean, I still don't think the orders are hers, she has usually tried taking the people from lands she conquered as slaves (living slaves, not undead ofc). I mean it is possible, she has concluded that this is too risky this time around, but simply bombing the vale and just leaving as few survivors as possible would serve the same purpose and issuing a written order to wipe out everything seems too much out of character to me.

  9. #189
    Quote Originally Posted by Shandalay View Post
    Why? She usually (at least as shown in the starting zone) has the corpses taken to Deathknell. Why should she risk her few remaining Val'kyr when she has all the time in the world to clean up after a fight and take it slow?

    I mean, I still don't think the orders are hers, she has usually tried taking the people from lands she conquered as slaves (living slaves, not undead ofc). I mean it is possible, she has concluded that this is too risky this time around, but simply bombing the vale and just leaving as few survivors as possible would serve the same purpose and issuing a written order to wipe out everything seems too much out of character to me.
    I mean she did bomb Southshore n such after well over a decade(from end of wc3:tft to cata) of hostilites initiated by human incapability to accept existence of the Forsaken.

    Admittedly i don't know the sequence of events in BfA, however a source of food is a very viable military target in terms of medieval(ish) period warfare. Then again if that was the case we would see the Horde taking the supplies so who knows.

  10. #190
    Dreadlord Leodric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by omeomorfismo View Post
    clearly she doesnt partecipated to the insurrection but anyway without that initial bargain they all died.
    elysande had to made a choise and she predict right, clearly not interpreting what would happen in the middle



    and nobody is saying that scourge isnt linked to the lk, but the power to command could be passed at will between the member. in all the campaing we see nathrezims and arthas passing the control of ghouls and zombies...
    then arthas even ressed and controlled a frost wyrm with his power alone (ch4 legacy of the damned), why he should be in difficult with a banshee?
    Because it is clearly stated that not Arthas controlled her, but the Lich King. You can play the tft campaign yourself to see. Sylvanas is the banshee queen, again you can't compare sylvanas to a common undead such as a frost wyrm. If he would have been able to control her, she wouldn't be able to betray him. He also didn't control Kel'thuzad for example, he stood with Arthas cause he was loyal to him.

    The power to command could be yes who knows, that's head canon, I don't know how exactly it works, but in this particular case it was the lich king himself. Maybe they retconned it later in some chronicle book, but I don't think so.

  11. #191
    Quote Originally Posted by sighy View Post
    The only teeny tiny problem wiht that being, if Sylvanas intended to raise them don't you think she would prehaps just maaaaybe send somebody capable of ressurrecting them as a part of the assalut?
    As someone already said, they dont have to be raised at the very moment of their deaths.

    When Sylvanas first presents Garrosh the power of the val'kyr, the human corpses already are there. And I highly doubt that a group of humans just so happened to wander there. Also, each new forsaken post Wotlk is one turned by Sylvanas, not saved from LK's grasp. Do you think all of new generation forsaken are humans killed in Deathkneel? Yes, some of them could be the defias from around the place, but most of them are being transported here.

    And as much as she wants a new "flesh" in her ranks, I doubt she is willing to raise them in public.

  12. #192
    Dreadlord Leodric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sighy View Post
    I think even, if they didn't allow Tyrande to talk(because her anti-skill in diplomacy is truely astounding) the Nightborne would ultimately lean toward the Horde, because they jsut have so much in common, with the blood elves and the Night Elves only recently lifted the "arcane means execution" policy. Also we know for a fact that Blood Elves maintained contact after the Nighthold, which Night Elves didn't according to what Thalysra says in the unlock scenario.

    It is kinda like Night Elves joining the alliance in Vanilla, because back then tehy didn't realy have a good reason for it either, after the battle at mount hyjal.

    But if you are going to take this approach the army of the light are even bigger dicks in that regard
    Yep, more leaning towards the Horde, but not so much to fight against the NE. Also I think the Night Elves had more reasons to join the Alliance than the Nightborne do. Orcs killed Cenarius (under Fel, but still). They were on Kalimdor settling near Ashenvale + Orcs having bargains with the trolls + tauren. It makes sense that they would need allies against such threat, especially seeing how the Orcs needed lumber.

    About the Army of the light, I don't know if the Horde + Alliance helped them canon wise? I mean we as players helped them as representitives of our order hals afaik, that's why it makes for example sense to me that the Highmountain joined the Horde.

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    Quote Originally Posted by keymil View Post
    I dont want to join the circlejerk
    Do you know what a circle jerk is?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Unholyground View Post
    They are setting Sylvanas / Nathanos up so she / he can leave the Horde to teach Dark Rangers, I have been saying it for some time now and it is becoming more obvious.
    that would be nice. Could see that as a new class

  13. #193
    Quote Originally Posted by Leodric View Post
    Yep, more leaning towards the Horde, but not so much to fight against the NE. Also I think the Night Elves had more reasons to join the Alliance than the Nightborne do. Orcs killed Cenarius (under Fel, but still). They were on Kalimdor settling near Ashenvale + Orcs having bargains with the trolls + tauren. It makes sense that they would need allies against such threat, especially seeing how the Orcs needed lumber.

    About the Army of the light, I don't know if the Horde + Alliance helped them canon wise? I mean we as players helped them as representitives of our order hals afaik, that's why it makes for example sense to me that the Highmountain joined the Horde.

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    Do you know what a circle jerk is?

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    that would be nice. Could see that as a new class
    Night Elves and Orcs+friends were at peace and kinda lukewarm, if not friendly in the time between WC3 and vanilla, with open trade until Wrathgate. Also got a bit of a retcon, from their savage, vicious persona, in WC3.

    I suppose people like Liadrin were looking for the next holiday destination then i suppose.

    The whole faction thing got put on ice durning all of legion outside of Stormheim, where i just hate the alliance storyline with a passion. I mean i know why Greymane is there, but why the hell am i helping him fuck all our war effort against the legion? And if Rogers realy was from Southshore she would know that the Humans there have been harrassing the Forsaken, from the moment Forsaken were a thing. I mean what did they think was gonna happen, when the Forsaken just had egnouh? Suprise...exactly what ended up happening.(bit of an off topic rant, but whatever)

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    Quote Originally Posted by keymil View Post
    As someone already said, they dont have to be raised at the very moment of their deaths.

    When Sylvanas first presents Garrosh the power of the val'kyr, the human corpses already are there. And I highly doubt that a group of humans just so happened to wander there. Also, each new forsaken post Wotlk is one turned by Sylvanas, not saved from LK's grasp. Do you think all of new generation forsaken are humans killed in Deathkneel? Yes, some of them could be the defias from around the place, but most of them are being transported here.

    And as much as she wants a new "flesh" in her ranks, I doubt she is willing to raise them in public.
    In Silverpine for instance they do it on the spot in WPL they do it on the spot. Soo meh both work i say. (sidenote)I just find it rather odd that all the living family members of the Forsaken down south would demand the extermination of their undead relatives and want nothing to do with them.

  14. #194
    Quote Originally Posted by Leodric View Post
    Because it is clearly stated that not Arthas controlled her, but the Lich King. You can play the tft campaign yourself to see. Sylvanas is the banshee queen, again you can't compare sylvanas to a common undead such as a frost wyrm. If he would have been able to control her, she wouldn't be able to betray him. He also didn't control Kel'thuzad for example, he stood with Arthas cause he was loyal to him.

    The power to command could be yes who knows, that's head canon, I don't know how exactly it works, but in this particular case it was the lich king himself. Maybe they retconned it later in some chronicle book, but I don't think so.
    even ignoring that frost wyrm were the pinnacle of scourge army i doubt that sapphiron is a "common undead"...

    and in chronicle3 pag 66 its said after the summon of archimonde "The demon lord then transferred control of the scourge to the dreadlords" meanwhile at pag 77
    "he subtly influenced the scourge, sometimes causing the undeads to disobey their Legion masters and run amork"
    the passing of undead control is definitely true and dks/necromancers have some power on them.

    and still, even if all scourge is bounded to lk, arthas was the general, the one that managed all the conquest of lordaeron and quel'thalas.
    isnt like that lk think a maneouvre, tell to arthas to say that order, ghoul A listen that order, lk let that ghoul A to do that order as a some weird puppets game.
    lk can be even the master jailer of scourge still the orders were from arthas (and in general from the few with a limited free will as liches and dks)...

    finally kel'thuzad is a special case, if i dont remeber wrong he was gifted with true free will thanks his deep loyalty.

  15. #195
    Quote Originally Posted by sighy View Post
    In Silverpine for instance they do it on the spot in WPL they do it on the spot. Soo meh both work i say. (sidenote)I just find it rather odd that all the living family members of the Forsaken down south would demand the extermination of their undead relatives and want nothing to do with them.
    Makes sense considering she and her val'kyr are already there. Also at that time she probably didnt care about who anyone thinks, and TBH there was also this orc general who already witnessed the raising.
    You know, its probably not that much of a secret that Sylvanas uses her val'kyr to create new forsaken, but I guess its kind of tabu and until someone doesnt see it themselves, they just dont allow that final thought of realization to get to their heads.
    Imagine Sylvanas raising dead in front of Saurfang/Baine/whoever the troll leader is (lol). They'd leave the Horde in an instant if they witnessed it themselves.

    One more example came to my head. We recover the corpse of Lord Godfrey who killed himself quite some time before we even get to Gilneas. The corpse got transported and raised in a more suitable place.

  16. #196
    Dreadlord Leodric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by omeomorfismo View Post
    even ignoring that frost wyrm were the pinnacle of scourge army i doubt that sapphiron is a "common undead"...

    and in chronicle3 pag 66 its said after the summon of archimonde "The demon lord then transferred control of the scourge to the dreadlords" meanwhile at pag 77
    "he subtly influenced the scourge, sometimes causing the undeads to disobey their Legion masters and run amork"
    the passing of undead control is definitely true and dks/necromancers have some power on them.

    and still, even if all scourge is bounded to lk, arthas was the general, the one that managed all the conquest of lordaeron and quel'thalas.
    isnt like that lk think a maneouvre, tell to arthas to say that order, ghoul A listen that order, lk let that ghoul A to do that order as a some weird puppets game.
    lk can be even the master jailer of scourge still the orders were from arthas (and in general from the few with a limited free will as liches and dks)...

    finally kel'thuzad is a special case, if i dont remeber wrong he was gifted with true free will thanks his deep loyalty.
    So what now, you mentioned frostwyrms and now you come with Sapphiron who is not a common frostwyrm just like Sylvanas is not a common Banshee.

    Again you are arguing about something which completly dismisses what she has said herself. She even said she can't hear the voice of the Lich King in her head anymore, no mention of Arthas his voice or any mention of Arthas controlling her. So why would there be the possibility of Arthas controlling her when she betrayed him?

    Also now you are mixing up orders (general) and mind control. He might have been a general or the leader during the campaign but there is a huge difference between someone ordering you stuff to do and actually controlling you. The control from the LK faded and so Sylvanas could do her stuff. Arthas also had no idea she was about to betray him that's why Sylvanas and her banshees led them to a trap and then shot him with the arrow. Doesn't sound to me that he controlled her, else he would have noticed it right? But the LK noticed that he was going to get betrayed by her and told him too late, because he knew he had no control over her anymore. Just play the campaign and you will see yourself.
    Last edited by Leodric; 2018-04-09 at 07:03 PM.

  17. #197
    Quote Originally Posted by Leodric View Post
    Again you are arguing about something which completly dismisses what she has said herself. She even said she can't hear the voice of the Lich King in her head anymore, no mention of Arthas his voice or any mention of Arthas controlling her. So why would there be the possibility of Arthas controlling her when she betrayed him?

    Also now you are mixing up orders (general) and mind control. He might have been a general or the leader during the campaign but there is a huge difference between someone ordering you stuff to do and actually controlling you. The control from the LK faded and so Sylvanas could do her stuff. Arthas also had no idea she was about to betray him that's why Sylvanas and her banshees led them to a trap and then shot him with the arrow. Doesn't sound to me that he controlled her, else he would have noticed it right? But the LK noticed that he was going to get betrayed by her and told him too late, because he knew he had no control over her anymore. Just play the campaign and you will see yourself.
    Not 100% sure what this conversation is about but it sounds like you're debating who had control over Sylvanas when she didn't have free-will?

    In Cataclysm she goes on a horseback ride with the Horde PC and descirbes her breaking free from Arthas' control.


    Lady Sylvanas Windrunner says: A similar fate befell all that would die to the Scourge war machine.
    Lady Sylvanas Windrunner says: In death, they were reborn as mindless undead.
    Lady Sylvanas Windrunner says: But Arthas was not invincible! With each passing day his power wanted - his grip over the will of the damned loosening.
    Lady Sylvanas Windrunner says: It was when Arthas was at his weakest that I struck!
    Lady Sylvanas Windrunner says: And though the hour of his atonement had come, the worm managed to escape his fate, returning to the frozen wastes of Northrend.
    Lady Sylvanas Windrunner says: With Arthas gone, so too was the control he held over the undead masses of Lordaeron. After recovering my body, I freed the remaining Scourge that were left behind.
    There are also scenes in Arthas: Rise of the Lich King and Blood of the Highborne where Arthas is clearly controlling her physically(e.g. using his hand to force her to do something)

    My guess is it was both? Arthas had the ability to physically control her and make her do what he wanted, but the Lich King also had influence when Arthas wasn't directly controlling her.

  18. #198
    Dreadlord Leodric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koraggar View Post
    Not 100% sure what this conversation is about but it sounds like you're debating who had control over Sylvanas when she didn't have free-will?

    In Cataclysm she goes on a horseback ride with the Horde PC and descirbes her breaking free from Arthas' control.




    There are also scenes in Arthas: Rise of the Lich King and Blood of the Highborne where Arthas is clearly controlling her physically(e.g. using his hand to force her to do something)

    My guess is it was both? Arthas had the ability to physically control her and make her do what he wanted, but the Lich King also had influence when Arthas wasn't directly controlling her.
    Again, that's why I have said in my previous posts that it was technically ner'zhul as the Lich King who hold control over her and the Undead and acknowledged Arthas as being the general/DK who ordered the whole campaign.

    Quote Originally Posted by Leodric View Post
    technically speaking it was ner'zhul, when he lost power she regained control over herself again to betray him.
    .
    I can't imagine they retconed the whole idea that Ner'zhul losing power is the main factor why Arthas got weaker and the control over the Undead faded.
    Last edited by Leodric; 2018-04-09 at 07:21 PM.

  19. #199
    As it's been said, Garrosh and Sylvanas have very different motives, and by comparison Sylvanas' story is still being written.
    In classic, it was much more understood that the Forsaken were allied with the Horde for no real reason other than self preservation and that Thrall wanted a foothold in the Eastern Kingdoms. The Tauren, Trolls, and Orcs did not trust them, which is why Horde Forsaken Characters started off as Neutral with their own faction races, and likewise Orc/Tauren/Trolls were neutral with the Forsaken. While Sylvanas has always had a rebellious streak, starting in BC with the Blood Elves she started being more of a team player, although still focused on her own motives. In the years since, the Undead have become crucial in the horde, whether they like it or not.

    I think that Sylvanas will always have an air of deception around her, but I think a big part of the expansion will be the "reveal" as to why Vol'jin picked her. And i think that it will be a character switch for her, realizing that she may still have more humanity than she previously acknowledged.

    My suspicion is that after the first arc of the expac (when the war dies down because of some inevitable existential threat) there will be some Windrunner Sisters moment that will parallel Sylvanas's Undeath with Alleria's Void, and the result will be Sylvanas becoming a more credible leader by realizing she still has things to "live" for.

    My 2 cents. But the people who hate Sylvanas will always hate Sylvanas, and will look right over the Orc Internment Camps that Humans had. *ahem*

  20. #200
    Quote Originally Posted by mcastillo88 View Post
    As it's been said, Garrosh and Sylvanas have very different motives, and by comparison Sylvanas' story is still being written.
    In classic, it was much more understood that the Forsaken were allied with the Horde for no real reason other than self preservation and that Thrall wanted a foothold in the Eastern Kingdoms. The Tauren, Trolls, and Orcs did not trust them, which is why Horde Forsaken Characters started off as Neutral with their own faction races, and likewise Orc/Tauren/Trolls were neutral with the Forsaken. While Sylvanas has always had a rebellious streak, starting in BC with the Blood Elves she started being more of a team player, although still focused on her own motives. In the years since, the Undead have become crucial in the horde, whether they like it or not.

    I think that Sylvanas will always have an air of deception around her, but I think a big part of the expansion will be the "reveal" as to why Vol'jin picked her. And i think that it will be a character switch for her, realizing that she may still have more humanity than she previously acknowledged.

    My suspicion is that after the first arc of the expac (when the war dies down because of some inevitable existential threat) there will be some Windrunner Sisters moment that will parallel Sylvanas's Undeath with Alleria's Void, and the result will be Sylvanas becoming a more credible leader by realizing she still has things to "live" for.

    My 2 cents. But the people who hate Sylvanas will always hate Sylvanas, and will look right over the Orc Internment Camps that Humans had. *ahem*
    I Agree mostly.

    In chronicles it says they pretty much joined the Horde, because Quel'thalas declined their attempt at reconnecting and Stormwind(by extension places like southshore) responded with attempts at their extermination.

    Sylvanas is a proven tactitian and proven to go the distance, for the people who choose to follow her. Heck it might be her branch of ruthlessness we need in order to win over the Naga, Azshara, N'zoth or whatever comes out way.

    Weell as portrayed she believes going to the afterlife is the worst thing that can possibly happen to someone so there might be a theme comparing surviving and living.

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