WoW Has Never Been Harder, Players Have Never Been Better

[Myta]

World of Warcraft has never been harder, and more challenging than it is today. Likewise, the players that are playing WoW have never been better.

Even from the lowest levels, has never been more difficult than the LFR that was given in Legion. Compare Warlords of Draenor where you may wipe of Archimonde once or twice, to today where undergeared players absolutely can wipe to Aggramar due to how he spams Flame Rend which he does in no other difficulty except LFR, and Argus where there are innumerable ways you can wipe the raid on top of not meeting the DPS check.

In addition to this, because LFR is harder and players have been getting better, we have seen a massive uptick in players pugging Normal/Heroic raids than any expansion previously, keep in my I have been playing since Vanilla beta. I have never seen this many active pug raids in the history of World of Warcraft. More people are getting their Ahead of Curve through pugging than they ever have before (killing the last boss on the 2nd hardest difficulty for non-curve raids of the past)

Also, more players are clearing Mythic Antorus by pugging than they ever have before since that feature was enabled, and in the history of WoW never have I seen pugs as successful as they are today.

Never, ever, ever has 5man content been as hard as it is in Legion

It is a very rewarding, very entertaining, and very difficult content that is now spontaneously building Blizzard an e-sports brand out of nowhere.

What LFR needs to go away posters and MMO-C readers don't understand, is that because WoW has become more difficult over the years, actively and directly less casualized, this has caused a direct effect of pushing players into higher content, and feeding Mythic guilds with new recruits from heroic to trial, than in every expansion previously. Nighthold was a bit rocky because of the AP requirements, but as Blizzard fixed it's AP/AK & Legendary systems, it massively boosted the long-term health of the expansion.

Raiding has never been harder, LFR has never been harder.

The problem is, that people who love to quote Asmongold don't realize is that they literally do not want players to be better. They see the existence of casual content at all as 'offensive' to them, even though it exists as a gradient into harder content, and if that casual content went away, if LFR went away than there would be no normal mode puggers/raiders, no heroic mode puggers/raiders, and no mythic puggers/raiders. Mythic guilds rely on that staircase to survive. You can say Titanforging is a problem, and Blizzard has acknowledged it is a problem, but if it genuinely was this apocalyptic thing that meant no one cared about doing Mythic content, than less people would be doing mythic content. Instead we see the opposite, more people are doing mythic level content than in any expansion previously.

The evidence for this is in the premade groupfinder tool, where I can find a group forming for any dungeon, any raid during peak hours of any dungeon/raid at any difficulty at all hours of the day since Legion launched (and whenever Mythic gets xrealm enabled for that content).

Posters want to be doomsayers, they want the game to be dead, and they actively become angered when Blizzard does anything that leads to a positive result. It's time to ignore these people, and not give their ramblings the time of day. Because casual content is what feeds Mythic guilds, and without casual content there is no WoW.

[JackWest]

You are joking, right? The average player has never been this bad as they are right now. And the game has never been as "wellfare" as it is now, and players getting fed loot they havent earned.

Edit: I dont think the "let me play the game the way I want" guy, "or you could explain the fights instead of me reading journal" or the max level mage who has no clue what Time Warp is are gonna improve. Specially not by doing lfr. They just go there, die on first mechanic so they can afk and collect loot

[Myta]

You are joking, right? The average player has never been this bad as they are right now. And the game has never been as "wellfare" as it is now, and players getting fed loot they havent earned.

You can only believe that if you think that people who don't do Mythic don't deserve gear.

If the goal is: Funnel players up through the ranks of raiding into Mythic guilds, creating long-term health in the game, than Legion has done so.

But, if the goal is: Have much easier content (like Naxx40) that is harder to get access to solely for bragging rights, than Legion has failed.

Arguing in good faith, arguing with deeply held and rationally arrived at conclusions based on what you see in WoW, you cannot look at the casual raiding/5mans etc. and say it is easier than the past. It flat out isn't, the mechanics are more difficult to the point where even world first guilds said as much. At every conceivable level WoW has gotten harder, and it's playerbase has only gotten better.

You cannot look at LFR Archimonde and look at even LFR Coven of Shivarra and not say that LFR has gotten far more difficult over the years, but players have not noticed it because they have gotten better at WoW.

[JackWest]

You can only believe that if you think that people who don't do Mythic don't deserve gear.

If the goal is: Funnel players up through the ranks of raiding into Mythic guilds, creating long-term health in the game, than Legion has done so.

But, if the goal is: Have much easier content (like Naxx40) that is harder to get access to solely for bragging rights, than Legion has failed.

Arguing in good faith, arguing with deeply held and rationally arrived at conclusions based on what you see in WoW cannot look at the casual raiding/5mans etc. and say it is easier than the past. It flat out isn't, the mechanics are more difficult to the point where even world first guilds said as much. At every conceivable level WoW has gotten harder, and it's playerbase has only gotten better.

You cannot look at LFR Archimonde and look at even LFR Coven of Shivarra and not say that LFR has gotten far more difficult over the years, but players have not noticed it because they have gotten better at WoW.

They do deserve gear, but way lower ilvl. You cant possibly tell me a person who never stepped into HC(which drops 945 ilvl) deserves 965 equipped. Yes, I have seen that

Also, I did raid back in HFC and every time I joined for Archimonde lfr on an alt, grp had 5-6 Determination stacks, aka 5-6 wipes. Every time i've been coven lfr is 1 shot. Ofc a lot die to the flames and so but still 1 shot

[Rawrajishxc]

You are joking, right? The average player has never been this bad as they are right now. And the game has never been as "wellfare" as it is now, and players getting fed loot they havent earned.

Edit: I dont think the "let me play the game the way I want" guy, "or you could explain the fights instead of me reading journal" or the max level mage who has no clue what Time Warp is are gonna improve. Specially not by doing lfr. They just go there, die on first mechanic so they can afk and collect loot

So damn true.

[Djuntas]

Information is just more readily available from 2006. That makes any games be easier, but yes, Blizzard have made the end-game of raiding harder, but it still dosen't make it harder 95% rest of the game.

Having 1 hard area, doesn't make wow hard. Lvling is faster than back then, gold grind is non-existent and gearing methods are more available than before.

Also, to many of us been here for too long. I personally don't play wow seriously any more for years really, but I still keep the rust away, but new players might be inexperienced, still if they want to improve its much easier than back in even just WOTLK let alone vanilla. I played terrible in vanilla, doesn't mean I didn't kill 5 bosses in naxx40, honestly it's embarrassing thinking back.

[Hunterwep]

LFR has never been harder:
Then why are only two good Healers needed? Seriously have you ever looked at healing done in LFR.
3 other healers can go AFK and boss still goes down with ease.
I find farming herbs less mind numbing than doing LFR. Me being a Healer.

[potis]

Players are better? Yes.

Raiding is harder? Yes.

Your post lost any credibility though when you said "LFR is harder".

No, LFR is not harder, Durumu was the last fight where you can say "Whelp this isnt so bad for LFR".

Players are indeed overall better but thats only because its a 14 year old game and the information existing is massive and all over the place and someone eventually reads something and evolves, if ever so slightly.

So yes, the players are better because in the majority there is barely any new blood, its mostly people already playing for years, some never get better, they are just decent enough to not be considered mentally challenged.

[korijenkins]

Wow is harder, but websites like MMO-Champ and Wowhead trivialize content with in-depth guides on how to do every single thing. Vanilla was difficult because those guides didn't exist, and there was no YouTube to go to.

I don't think players are better. My experiences in PvP and Mythic Raiding tell me players are actually worse than ever, but there are so many systems implemented to hold their hand that is covers up a lot of badness. The fact remains that if you backpeddle or keyboard turn you are inferior to someone who strafes or moves with the mouse. Also there seems to be a chronic issue in PvP with players not even using abilities on the global CD, giving them a massive amount of deadtime in between attacks. PvE is plagued with players not hitting CDs, and dying as a result. I've lost track of how many mages I've seen die without hitting ice block, or how many hunters without turtling, or how many...

Theoretically the game is harder, but the internet negates the difficulty increase. If these sites didn't exist, if guides didn't exist, this game would be very hard still.

[Velerios]

Sorry, but LFR is too easy.

We only had 1 time a pretty damn good LFR experience, and that was Throne of Thunder. That was actually quite a hard LFR (and yes, in the first weeks it was pretty hard). Groups never talked as much as there in LFR. And yes, i want it back (and give us a heroic LFR with a copy&paste of Normal mode)

[Grym]

I haven't played Legion, but I am interested to know.

Cata 5man vs Legion 5man, which is harder?

People were rage quitting at Cata 5man however I loved it.

[potis]

I haven't played Legion, but I am interested to know.

Cata 5man vs Legion 5man, which is harder?

People were rage quitting at Cata 5man however I loved it.

Neither, what the OP is describing is M+ scaling where the majority of the game thinks that finally doing a +5 is somehow a life accomplishment and that the +10 is "Wow you are so good".

When reality is right now with all the gear and legendaries and changes you should be doing a +15 in under 10mins while facerolling cause its not that dangerous apart from certain "moments" that any half-arsed tank knows by now, and after something like +19 and up is where you can say "Whelp, fun!"

[Palinn]

5 man content is only "hard" because it has an infinite loop of building stats on monsters. The average dungeon-content (say Keystone 15s) didn't seem especially difficult to me. That being said, I would be interested in seeing a comparison between how many players have gotten "Keystone Master" vs how many obtained the mounts for Challenge Modes in MOP. I personally don't even think Challenge Modes in MOP were the hardest 5man content, either... In my experience the most challenge I faced in 5mans was early BC, finishing the attunements - before people started getting gear some of those challenges could be appropriately difficult.

As far as LFR being harder... That's just silly.

[shaunika123]

the top 10-15% are better than ever

but the bottom 75% are way worse, because the game doesnt require anything from them for a reward so they're not incentivized to learn.

leveling your character to max level used to take more effort than it does to clear a normal raid now.

[Rainyhealz]

https://www.method.gg/raid-history/legion

Considering XAVIUS world first took less than 48 hours and Argus took less than 2 weeks. Raiding is definitely easier. Yogg, Lich king, and even bc raids such as the eye and ssc took longer ....

The op is obviously troll. The flame rend is easily handled with 2 tanks that can turn toward a raid

Link provided shows world first timelines

[shaunika123]

https://www.method.gg/raid-history/legion

Considering XAVIUS world first took less than 48 hours and Argus took less than 2 weeks. Raiding is definitely easier. Yogg, Lich king, and even bc raids such as the eye and ssc took longer ....

The op is obviously troll. The flame rend is easily handled with 2 tanks that can turn toward a raid

Link provided shows world first timelines

that's a very VERY faulty assumption.

lich king had limited attempts for starters.

TBC raids took longer due to attunement and insane gear requirements not because of skill requirements.

the raids have been objectively getting harder and harder, plus both Al'ar and Lady Vashj were literally unkillable for a couple weeks due to bugs.
and even after the bugfix Al'ar was only killable by pre soulstoning everyone before every attempt on a warlock alt. outside the raid

just look at the mechanics.

the first boss in mythic antorus has more mechanics than a final boss used to in TBC.

[Rainyhealz]

that's a very VERY faulty assumption.

lich king had limited attempts for starters.

TBC raids took longer due to attunement and insane gear requirements not because of skill requirements.

the raids have been objectively getting harder and harder.

just look at the mechanics.

the first boss in mythic has more mechanics than a final boss used to in TBC.

Yogg has just as many mechanics, if not more.
SoO garrosh has more mechanics than xavius.

Having bosses like Argus who res those and forgives mistakes makes the raid easy

[Logwyn]

Never, ever, ever has 5man content been as hard as it is in Legion

Umm.... what is this a joke right? Before you got geared I'd say BC heroics were hard. Harder than this mythic crap in legion. Raiding isn't hard either.. Its not.

[Swalload]

Neither, what the OP is describing is M+ scaling where the majority of the game thinks that finally doing a +5 is somehow a life accomplishment and that the +10 is "Wow you are so good".

When reality is right now with all the gear and legendaries and changes you should be doing a +15 in under 10mins while facerolling cause its not that dangerous apart from certain "moments" that any half-arsed tank knows by now, and after something like +19 and up is where you can say "Whelp, fun!"

Important point here also. Tank players are doing most of the work, making DPS just go from one aoe target dummy to the next, controled and offred by the tank, all they have to do is not stand in shit. And to help tank players do that, Blizzard made all tank specs god-like.

[Deleted]

the top gets better as mechanics evolve over the time,the bad players get worse as you can be more lazy nowadays due to TF etc.
nothing new.