As Horde, i have no motivation to hate the alliance

[Ielenia]

Since when is Alliance's specialization not having ranged forces?

Are you trolling right now? Really? Way to twist the meaning of what I wrote.

I mean, other people already proved to you with the cinematic the distance issue and you already conceded on that.

Except the point that it's much easier to carry someone out of harm's way on horseback than it is on foot.

No, my issue was that the only time you addressed the spaceships was when you tried to spread false information about them and when you got corrected on that you dropped the topic altogether, even though their existence is still crucial to the issue at hand.

Care to point out when I did that?

Then prove this sentiment being common in the entire Alliance. Shouldn't be that hard. Yet you're still dancing around the issue.

I don't have to. The burden of proof is not on me. You said that the only ones who wanted this war was Genn and Jaina, because they were the only ones speaking about it. I simply pointed out the others may agree with them, but just opted not to say a word.

Sure. It only killed all of them and Alliance wasn't harassed by flying demons even after the gunship lowered itself so that the ground troops could get onto it.

So there were no spaceships harassing the Horde because we never see any in the cinematic. Good talk.

Who said anything about stopping fighting? Wasn't me. It'd be nice if you argued against what you're actually quoting and not the weak straw-men you have to resort to.

You don't need to stop fighting to see things. Especially when those things are major change in the ongoing fight. What, if the fight was on open field the Alliance would just not spot an incoming cavalry that arrived from hiding to flank them just because they were fighting? Once again your attempt to handwave things paints Alliance as militarily retarded. Is that really the way you want to go?

Except that's basically what you meant. If the ground forces stopped focusing on what was right in front of them, to instead focus on what may have been going on over the cliff, even for half a second, that would mean death. It's one thing if said cliff was in front of them, behind enemy lines, but no. The cliff was to their side, meaning they'd have to turn their heads to look in that direction, meaning the enemy they were fighting would no longer be in their field of view, which can very easily spell death.

And yet I could see them just fine. Pure magic, I say.

Could you? Screenshots plz.

Given how in that bit I responded to your failed attempt at being tongue-in-cheek in regards to Vol'jin, not Sylvanas great goalpost move you got here.

So what? With Vol'jin down, he couldn't give any orders, could he? And again, I fail to see you addressing the claim that such a move would be perfectly within Sylvans' character.

[Planetdune]

As a pure PvE player I have 0 interest in faction conflict.... I wouldn't mind if we were all just the same faction..

[Deleted]

Currently, I would want to crush Alliance when playing Horde. Mind you, not for the "lore" - because Alliance fanboys are so digusting.

[Deleted]

Holy shit people, Alliance sent spies to find out what Horde was doing in Silithus. After realizing that Azerite is like god damn nuclear power, things went south. I'm pretty sure any organisation would intervene if they saw that opposite organisation is gathering resources. And yes Alliance attacked first because Horde didn't go to Silithus to gather some felweed.

[Deleted]

Holy shit people, Alliance sent spies to find out what Horde was doing in Silithus. After realizing that Azerite is like god damn nuclear power, things went south. I'm pretty sure any organisation would intervene if they saw that opposite organisation is gathering resources. And yes Alliance attacked first because Horde didn't go to Silithus to gather some felweed.

The Alliance only found out what azerite can do after they killed goblin miners and blew up infrastructure.

The crown has ordered SI:7 to infiltrate the goblin mining operation and collect any information we can find on this mysterious new substance. My agents have infiltrated the camp, but the clock is ticking and we need to get our hands on some extracted ore samples fast. In other words, I need someone who can take the direct approach. Someone who can handle a fight against overwhelming odds and come out alive. Take the ore samples to Khargus Stonemantle for analysis when you return.

Does that seem like they knew anything? Cause they didn't. For all the Alliance knew azerite is just pretty and the Horde wanted to make jewelry with it.

[Galathir]

So the demon horde was further away than I imagined, but, still, 100-120 yards is not distant enough to allow one to retreat at walking speed safely. Going by average human running speed (so technically a low estimate), it'd take the demons around 20 seconds (or less) to reach the retreating forces.

I have pondered for quite some time whether or not to answer you to this one but you'll get one last answer from me.

There is one (in numbers: 1!) demon that is 100-120 yards away from them. The others are a lot further away. This demon is bound in battle. And even if he were to come at the archers they would not be defenseless because they have several Dark Rangers guarding their backs.

All of these points can be seen clearly both in the video and in my screenshot (even though it is blurry as hell), so I have two possible ways to interpret your post:

a) you are deliberately disingenuous because you are unable to give up your presupposed opinion and admit defeat, no matter what evidence you are confronted with or
b) you are a troll.

In both cases you would have shown yourself unworthy of any further discussion.
So goodbye and enjoy your cognitive dissonance.

[Mehrunes]

The sea route was not unblockaded, and was left without an apparent threat for only the time between the end of actual battle and the mana bomb detonation. That was a day at best. Before that, the Horde navy was present close enough that the Theramore leadership didn't dare attempt an evacuation. That was explicitely stated in Tides of War. Garrosh must have been aware of that, as he used the threat of the Horde navy to lure in more Alliance and allied military, who wouldn't have come if evacuation of the city was an option at that time. Considering that Kirin Tor sent in mages who didn't even consider using portals to get people away suggests that even that wasn't a realistic option and thus was not realised.

The civilians left few days in advance and Alliance sent reinforcements by sea, so I have no idea where you got that from. And why wouldn't the reinforcements have come if there was an evacuation? So if you can evacuate the civilian population from an outpost you just abandon it and let the enemy capture/destroy it? The two have nothing to do with each other.

Also, there was no implication whatsoever that the mana bomb was coming, after the defenders won the battle proper, only that the Horde military stayed some distance away from the city. At that point, evacuation was not a sensible option either, unless the city leadership had to be expected to count with a subsequent unconventional attack coming shortly after they succesfuly defended the city from the conventional threat.

And given how Hawthorne used an opportunity when Taurajo's defenders were out on a hunt, which means it was something Taurajo did not expect or they wouldn't have sent their elite units on a hunt if there was a danger of an attack, they had no implication of it either.

The evactuation was either not viable, due to the number of potential evacuees and the Horde navy being close enough to be a threat to the evacuation, and subsequently, not an option, because the mana bomb was not even hinted to be used (or exist), and the city was considered the safest place for the civilians to be.

And yet everyone who wanted to evacuate did. It's explicitly said in the book that those who stayed chose to do so.

Camp Taurajo, on the other hand, was a training camp. For one, a training camp (also stated in Tides of War), therefore, not to be expected to be civilian heavy (depending on what one considers a civilian, though) for other, a camp, therefore, not to be numerous in occupants.

Except the very Alliance leader that ordered the attack called it a soft target. Which means non-military outpost. It was just also used to recruit, train and arm Horde recruits. For some inexplicable reason when Hawthorne talked about the merits of the expedition he talked about confiscated weapons and destroyed blacksmithing facilities, not a great military blow to the Horde army itself. Hell, he waited with the attack while most of the defensive force was out hunting.

Small space in the alliance lines would be more than enough for an impromptu evacuation of everyone present, which wouldn't have counted in more than a few dozens (otherwise, we're talking about a village, and the situation would be something else entirely).

Which still doesn't change the fact that it was a much smaller and much more immediate opportunity to escape than the Horde sitting by Theramore for days twiddling their thumbs.

[Ielenia]

I have pondered for quite some time whether or not to answer you to this one but you'll get one last answer from me.

There is one (in numbers: 1!) demon that is 100-120 yards away from them. The others are a lot further away. This demon is bound in battle. And even if he were to come at the archers they would not be defenseless because they have several Dark Rangers guarding their backs.

All of these points can be seen clearly both in the video and in my screenshot (even though it is blurry as hell), so I have two possible ways to interpret your post:

a) you are deliberately disingenuous because you are unable to give up your presupposed opinion and admit defeat, no matter what evidence you are confronted with or
b) you are a troll.

In both cases you would have shown yourself unworthy of any further discussion.
So goodbye and enjoy your cognitive dissonance.

And the defense line was failing. On top of that, we have Vol'jin loudly announcing that "they (the demons) are coming from behind". Now, if "from behind", Vol'jin means the swarm of demons attacking the Horde in the cinematic, I have to wonder if Vol'jin likes to waste time announcing something everyone else already knew, or if there was a new swarm of demons coming from a different side, not shown in the cinematic.

[baskev]

There was no warning in Taurajo. The commander only left an opening in his lines so the civilians could escape through there. Horde on the other hand parked in front of Theramore for days, leaving the civilians ample time to escape. So while Garrosh didn't stand inside the gate with an official proclamation, what you say didn't happen is exactly what happened. And one faction giving the civilians from the other the time to escape was your entire point in the previous post.

okay i read it wrong he did not warn them. He only let them escape:

During the events of Cataclysm, the town was destroyed by the Alliance, in order to secure their offensive against the Horde. The Alliance, expanding from Northwatch Hold under false information that the tauren were planning an attack, had razed Camp Taurajo.[1] Several quest chains do show that General Hawthorne, who led the assault, ordered his men to give the townsfolk an opening in their defensive lines for them to escape.

Just like garrosh and the horde army did...

Yes that was my point. And garrosh would have given them time to escape because he was nice like that.

[Mehrunes]

Are you trolling right now? Really? Way to twist the meaning of what I wrote.

I take it you still have no rational explanation for Alliance not being able to field one of the most important troop formations. Even though they had plenty of ranged forces at the beach, the Legion outpost and Krosus area.

Except the point that it's much easier to carry someone out of harm's way on horseback than it is on foot.

You're literally walking back on your own concession you made to other people, where you admitted you remembered things wrong about the distance of the demons.

Care to point out when I did that?

I'm pretty sure "Legion spaceships" were already there from the get-go.

Other than that your only case of "addressing" the topic was denying that you're not addressing it.

I don't have to. The burden of proof is not on me. You said that the only ones who wanted this war was Genn and Jaina, because they were the only ones speaking about it. I simply pointed out the others may agree with them, but just opted not to say a word.

If you can't stop putting words in my mouth then just leave the discussion. You already straw-manned me in this way and I already clarified this nonsensical straw-man of yours. I said that the only ones who talked about it. Nothing about them being the only ones wanting it. Or are you simply confused about the difference between these two terms?

Your adventures with words aside, if I claim they are the only ones who talked about it and you claim that there are more, the burden of proof in regards to your counterclaim is on YOU. Because your counterclaim is also a positive claim. Thanks for shooting yourself in this new and creative way by bringing up the burden of proof though.

So there were no spaceships harassing the Horde because we never see any in the cinematic. Good talk.

This is a non sequitur the size of a galaxy.

Except that's basically what you meant. If the ground forces stopped focusing on what was right in front of them, to instead focus on what may have been going on over the cliff, even for half a second, that would mean death. It's one thing if said cliff was in front of them, behind enemy lines, but no. The cliff was to their side, meaning they'd have to turn their heads to look in that direction, meaning the enemy they were fighting would no longer be in their field of view, which can very easily spell death.

But since you don't need to specifically focus on something in order to notice it, it's not what I meant at all.

Could you? Screenshots plz.

I don't have them at hand since I changed computers, but I posted them in the past.

So what? With Vol'jin down, he couldn't give any orders, could he? And again, I fail to see you addressing the claim that such a move would be perfectly within Sylvans' character.

This is still irrelevant to the point that was made there. Move the goalposts some more, maybe you'll manage to make a full circle eventually and you'll arrive where we left off. And the claim about Sylvanas has nothing to do with the initial thesis of the grand Horde betrayal so thanks for it.

Holy shit people, Alliance sent spies to find out what Horde was doing in Silithus. After realizing that Azerite is like god damn nuclear power, things went south. I'm pretty sure any organisation would intervene if they saw that opposite organisation is gathering resources. And yes Alliance attacked first because Horde didn't go to Silithus to gather some felweed.

But they haven't realized it before they attacked.

Yes that was my point. And garrosh would have given them time to escape because he was nice like that.

Not what I said and it's irrelevant to your initial post.

[baskev]

Not what I said and it's irrelevant to your initial post.

Its not. Alliance attacks waits and lets Horde civ leave.

Garrosh and horde where no longer normal horde by then. If he was Baine would not have sent a warning to the alliance.

[Ielenia]

I take it you still have no rational explanation for Alliance not being able to field one of the most important troop formations. Even though they had plenty of ranged forces at the beach, the Legion outpost and Krosus area.

Perhaps said ranged forces weren't enough, on their own, to clear the skies. Perhaps said ranged forces were necessary to support the melee unit on the ground against demons on the back. It's not hard.

You're literally walking back on your own concession you made to other people, where you admitted you remembered things wrong about the distance of the demons.

How? From the get-go my point was that it was much easier to carry a disabled person on horse-back than on foot. And, again, we never see Vol'jin's exact position in the cinematic. Coupled with the fact he decided to loudly announce the demons coming from behind, lends credence to the idea of the demons coming from another area, not shown in the cinematic.

Other than that your only case of "addressing" the topic was denying that you're not addressing it.

I'm pretty sure saying "I'm pretty sure" implies that I'm not 100% certain on the idea and I could be wrong. But I could be wrong.

the burden of proof in regards to your counterclaim is on YOU. Because your counterclaim is also a positive claim. Thanks for shooting yourself in this new and creative way by bringing up the burden of proof though.

My counter-argument is not a "positive claim". All I argued was a possibility, not a certainty. What I argued was akin to this scenarios: there's three plastic cups upside-down on the table. One of them is clear plastic, the other two opaque. There's a coin inside the clear cup, and you announce "there is a coin in this clear plastic cup", while I am saying, "Yeah, but there could be coins in the other cups, too."

This is a non sequitur the size of a galaxy.

I'm just pointing out your double-standard. You say there were spaceships attacking the Horde despite not a spaceship, or a blast from said spaceships, ever being shown in the Horde cinematic. Not at the beginning, not at the middle, not at the end. So the cinematic is wrong. But then you claim that the Alliance's Skyfire have cleared the skies after shooting three times, felling one flying demon out of three while missing two other shots somehow clears the skies. Because it's shown in the cinematic.

[Deleted]

How far Nathanos actually goes is tell the player to "oversee the extraction efforts in Silithus and prevent the Alliance from interfering", not the fantasy you proclaimed here. Top notch fact you got here though.

"Nathanos Blightcaller says: Gallywix has operations underway in Silithus. Get there at once. And if you see any Alliance skulking about, make quick work of them."

I'm sure "making quick work" of someone means having a stern word with them.

Sylvanas states that after the Alliance already tried to kill and steal for it.

When does Nathanos even order that? And even if he did, there were no Alliance miners... The Alliance literally just send spies and assassins, so the statement "Kill any Alliance" is simply talking about SI:7.

We don't know what would have happened if the Alliance send miners to silithus, it's possible the Horde would have slaughtered them they might not have. But since the Alliance just went ahead and started killing and blowing shit up, it doesn't matter what the Horde might have done in a "What if" situation. The fact of the matter is, the Alliance attacked non-combatants, was tresspasing and blew up infrastructure.

He says it when you accept the quest to go to Silithus. Y'know, before SI:7 is even up to things.

If there were any Alliance miner, but there wasn't.
Fact is Alliance sent spies. No ifs, no buts, no howevers.
Alliance sent spies to infiltrate Horde camps, that's also a fact.
The whole questline is about spying and fucking up Horde campaments.
Need proof? Read the quests, again.
That ain't nonsense.
Again, had the Alliance sent miners to settle and start mining and then Horde killig miners I would agree Horde started a conflict... but no. Horde was mining, minding their business, and the Alliance movilized a military force.
You say I forget that "little" fact... No. The fact that she says any matters not when Alliance is stealing and fucking up Horde camps.
The speculation and the "But if X Sylvanas would've Y" is the only way people can defend the Alliance in Silithus, which is wrong, as they leave all the facts I and others have been highlighting and that are actually present in-game.
So, maybe pay more attention to that instead of snarking up here in the forums next time?

So your suggestion is for the Alliance to send miners even before they know what the hell is going on.

Get over it. The Alliance's behaviour in Silithus is completely sensible and, as it turns out, justified. You don't get to hide behind "oh, we're just poor miners minding our own business" when you're extraction the fantasy equivalent of uranium in order to militarize it. Sylvanas' decision to ramp up production and mine the shit out of Silithus before anyone else can is what provokes the Alliance and escalates the conflict. It makes the Horde just as guilty as the Alliance.

But hey, muh poor Horde/Alliance victim complex/bias or something.

[Terongor]

I don't even get what point you are trying to make.

- - - Updated - - -



This is what I think, too.

My point was it is illogical to hate enemy soldiers because they are just doing their jobs and my example with your logic that genn should hate sylvanas not garrosh even though garrosh ordered the invasion then with your logic jew shouldn't hate Hitler for holocaust but the soldiers who acted on hitlers orders.

[maccajoe]

Yes poor writing. as mostly alliance player i have enough reasons to hate the horde.
But because of poor writing there is not much to hate the alliance for. So far ( in what we know so it might change) the alliance is reacting to horde things.

- - - Updated - - -



Nope, in that case the titans started it. Titan went made and did several worlds over already. Then the narruu came to argus. And from argus they went to dreanor.
So nope, if you go back on ancient history start at the start . Not at the point that makes your point look more valid.

But what you say does not even work. Because the horde and this version of the alliance was not even a thing then.
If you want to start somewhere start at WoW history after warcraft 3. You could argue that Warcraft 3 was a prelude to WoW. but it changes little.
And if you look in WoW...its the harvesting of Warsong that is 1 of the first points of anger between both sides in WoW.

I ask the question how far do we go back and the best answer you have is nope? You even said it twice "nope" why not? How far do we go back then. The Dranei are a literal race the current alliance they affected a current race in the Horde. The titans and naru are not races in the Horde or Alliance.

"if you go back on ancient history start at the start" No you go far back to whats relevant and the Dranei are relevant to the Horde and Alliance. Also starting after wc3 is really dumb so much that happened in wc1 and 2 effect the outcomes of 3 and WoW directly. Wc3 changes plenty the goddamn belves are in the Horde because of wc3..... Lordaeron is gone because of wc3 forsaken exist because of wc3 Arthas is LK because of wc3, Dalaran is gone because of wc3, night elves met humans because of wc3 Theramore exists because of wc3 the list goes on.

You arnt even making sense nor is your argument coherent.

[Serenais]

The civilians left few days in advance and Alliance sent reinforcements by sea, so I have no idea where you got that from. And why wouldn't the reinforcements have come if there was an evacuation? So if you can evacuate the civilian population from an outpost you just abandon it and let the enemy capture/destroy it? The two have nothing to do with each other.

Again, there was only one ship that was sent, the book explicitely states this. But, hey, let' see about the rest below.

And given how Hawthorne used an opportunity when Taurajo's defenders were out on a hunt, which means it was something Taurajo did not expect or they wouldn't have sent their elite units on a hunt if there was a danger of an attack, they had no implication of it either.

If they had no indication whatsoever until the Alliance was right on top of them, someone in there MASSIVELY screwed up. Southern Barrens are a large flat where scouting the enemy forces requires just a telescope, a technology that existed long time before World of Warcraft time period and I am sure the tauren have heard about before - and even if they didn't, Camp Taurajo was originaly set up to keep the quilboar in check, therefore it was not just for the local tauren to sit and wait. They must have been aware about the Alliance forces present in the area, because that is what they have been training to fight in the first place, and the reason why Taurajo was attacked was its direct proximity to Alliance logistic lines. So, if they were not aware of anything right until the Alliance was attacking the camp, either Hawthorne was a genius at moving military formations and disinformation, or someone who was at Taurajo responsible for security screwed in such a proportion that he or she may have just put a gun at the heads of the locals in general. Mind you, Baine himself considered the action at Taurajo legitimate (see: Tides of War), which implies that even the Tauren considered it a military post, not a civilian dwelling, therefore there must have been someone there in charge of security. All in all, Hawthorne could've reasonably expected to have been seen miles ahead with a clear intention of taking the camp, especially if his troops were in formations for an attack on the camp (and since there was a talk of "gaps in the lines", there must have been formations). The tauren are natives in the Barrens, who have lived in the camps under direct threat of the centaur and the quilboar for untold amount of time (I mean, we're talking millenia here), therefore they MUST have a way to "LOOK AROUND".
All in all, Hawthorne didn't have to send any warning beforehand, his forces approaching was pretty much impossible to hide due to the nature of the terrain of the Barrens. The fact that the Tauren had no idea he was coming and had enough time to go on a hunt, not to mention that they didn't bother to scout the movement of the Alliance troopos within the vicinity WITH WHOM THEY WERE AT WAR WITH makes someone who was supposed to be in charge there quite responsible for whatever happened.
I mean, was Hawthorne expected to send a letter two weeks in advance, so the Tauren would not go on a hunt and keep on scouting the surroundings in a warzone?

And yet everyone who wanted to evacuate did. It's explicitly said in the book that those who stayed chose to do so.

Yes, because at the time, it was insanely well defended. I mean, they fended off the Horde, and the the city was very well walled, with the only opening towards the port. Besides, a lot of them were probably aware of why evacuation wouldn't be a viability anyway. See below.

Except the very Alliance leader that ordered the attack called it a soft target. Which means non-military outpost. It was just also used to recruit, train and arm Horde recruits. For some inexplicable reason when Hawthorne talked about the merits of the expedition he talked about confiscated weapons and destroyed blacksmithing facilities, not a great military blow to the Horde army itself. Hell, he waited with the attack while most of the defensive force was out hunting.

Very well, what WAS Hawthorne supposed to do? See above why his approach should've been enough to warn the locals. Heck, the fact that most of them were out hunting means that there were even fewer needed to evacuate.

Which still doesn't change the fact that it was a much smaller and much more immediate opportunity to escape than the Horde sitting by Theramore for days twiddling their thumbs.

By the time the Horde was at Northwatch, it was too late to evacuate. Because:
1) Land route by that time was not an option anymore. The land evacuation would have to go through most of the Dustwallow Marsh, through the only moutnain pass between Southern Barrens and the Marsh, very close to Desolation point. Considering that we are talking a city that out would have to up and go, it would take several days to organise before the population would even get moving. Subsequent moving of a largely civilian group through the Marsh would take a very long time on its own. The Horde army, meanwhile, would be a lot faster to move, due to Barrens being a plain, and an army generaly moves faster than an impromtu evacuation of a very large number of civilians - especially since that army's target was Theramore anyway. But, let's say the population of Theramore makes it past the Shady Rest choke point before the Horde army gets there. They still need to go somewhere. There are only two options, either south, to Feathermoon, or north, to Ashenvale. North is really not possible because that is where the Horde army is coming from, and south is also not possible, due to the Thousand Needles being flooded and no land route being available to get from Southern Barrens to Feralas.
2) Sea route. Theramore was very much the only port that the Alliance could call its own pretty much all over the eastern shoreline of Kalimdor. That means, what ships were in Theramore were the only ones available for the evacuation. Now, we are talking about a city. This means, at least several thousand people. The nearest port that could even handle being a target of said evacuation while not being in the direction of the Horde or outright in the Horde hands, was Gadgetzan (as Steamwheedle Port was largely flooded, and the only other port that wasn't in Horde's hands at the moment on the eastern shore was Ratchet, a stone's throw away from Durotar and VERY close to the just destroyed Northwatch). As for Gadgetzan, it is in the middle of a desert. Therefore, the refugees wouldn't be able to stay there long before they'd exhaust the local supplies, so they would have to be evacuated further. Again, by sea, because the only other place that would even have ressources for them would be Ramkahen in Uldum, and that would require further move of several thousand people over desert. On top of that, Gadgetzan alone was not really close to Theramore, therefore we are talking a few days of naval travel to it at the very least. That means, the evacuation ships would also have to stock on resources for said evacuation, adding further time before the evacuation could even get underway.
That gets us to another problem. Evacuating over sea for several days means that there couldn't be hundreds of people on one ship, more to several dozen at most. And that is on the large ships. These people would have to stay there for several days, after all. On top of that, there were no ships specifically made for ferrying large number of civilians. There likely were troop ships present by the time the forces were built up for defense, but by that time, Theramore was the best place to stay, anyway. Theramore itself was never mentioned to have a large navy of its own, therefore the evacuation would have to be mostly done by fishing boats and cargo ships, plus possibly one or two passenger ships. Cargo ships wouldn't be numerous, we'd be talking less than a dozen (we're talking medievial port, not current day Singapore). Fishing boats would be far more numerous, but those could take only a few people at a time. Those fishing boats would also not be viable for ocean travel, therefore evacuation to Eastern Kingdoms would not be possible using those.
Now, we are talking two weeks at most to get population of Theramore out to Gadgetzan (between it being obvious that a Horde army is going for Theramore and them being at Theramore), although it would likely be much less, given that the Horde kept a sizeable navy close enough that Theramore was constantly aware of its position and what it was doing (meaning, scouting was possible to send back information relatively quickly, thus limiting the distance between Theramore and the Horde navy to "Horde has significant naval presence in Dustwallow Marsh waters"). Once the Horde navy was there, no sea route evacuation was possible (I will expand on this below), thus further limiting the time to move the population. All in all, we are talking several days to evacuate several thousand people to a place not suited for them, equiped to handle them or even being aware that they are en route. There is only space for several hundred people to maybe a thousand, if we REALLY cramp as many people as we can to as many ships and boats as possible, with as few resources as possible (aka, think atlantic slave trade conditions, something I very much doubt the Theramore leadership would be willing to put the people of Theramore through, not to mention that the ships would still have to be equipped for that). Now, we don't know what the distance between Theramore and Gadgetzan is, but on the map. it is just somewhat less than is the distance between Theramore and Orgrimmar - meaning, the distance is very significant. The sea travel wouldn't happen overnight, more like several days. That would be doubled, since the ships would have to come back for more people to evacuate. On top of that, there would be aditional time loading and offloading people and resources at both ends, which would add aditional day, at the very least. All in all, under the best circumstances, we are talking a week of evacuation per thousand people.
So, to summarize, there would be a day or two before the evacuation would start (it would likely be significantly more, it's civilian population effectively rooted in a city where they lived for several years, not all-time ready to immediatelly move, but let's not consider that for the moment) and a week per thousand people. All in all, if Theramore was just four thousand people large (a small town even by medivial standards, nowhere near a city), it would take a MONTH to evacuate. During which nothing else is going on in the city and the Horde is not intervening.
Once the Horde navy arrives in Dustwallow Marsh, it would no longer be possible, as they would be able to intercept and attack the refugee bearing ships within a day or so at most. Meaning, attempting the sea route once the Horde navy was present would be mass suicide, nothing else. Considering that the local population was the major bait Garrosh wanted to keep in (no local population, no reason to send in defence for Theramore; it may have been a massively strategic port, but only the Alliance would send forces to defend that, not the other like Sha'tar or Kirin Tor, who also helped, therefore, the amount of forces eliminated by the mana bomb would be smaller, possibly much smaller, as the Alliance wouldn't have to defend the port proper; finally, once the Horde would hold Shady Rest pass, Theramore would be useless as port anyway, so once a siege is underway, Theramore has no strategic value whatsoever; all in all, Garrosh needed the population to stay, otherwise there would be nothing to bomb), it can be reasoned that the Horde navy would be ordered to intervene (meaning, sink all ships going out of Theramore) once the evacuation would start to discourage further movement of population out and to create additional need for Alliance and its allies to amass forces as much as possible. Alliance could possibly send in large number of ships in (I believe that is, however, discussed in the book as not a viable option either; even if it wasn't, the Alliance would have to send dozens of ships at the very least, which would take weeks, if not more, given that they were active in combat operations all over the ocean between the continents) to safeguard the evacuation, but even if that would happen, only one thousand of people would make it out at best. The next time they would be back, they'd find a crater instead of a city.

All in all. Evacuation of Theramore was never really an option. It's position, the fact that there was no real port to which or land route viable through which the city could be emptied, the amount of time necessary even under the best of conditions and the lack of means to make such an evacuation happen ensured it. We're effectively talking about a Dunkirk situation with no England to come to rescue.
This is very unlike the Taurajo situation, because there were other camps closeby (in fact, survivors of Camp Taurajo DID make it to those; Wowpedia mentions Camp Una'fe and Vengeance Point), the much lower of number of people that had to move and the fact that they were allowed to evacuate. Theramore had neither of these.

[mickybrighteyes]

>.> you know... that wall of text explaining why it wasn;'t possible to evacuate theremore dind't take into account the uber mages present being able to portal to stormwind...

or mass teleport... but that would just take away the drama entirely and make too much sense

[Cyram]

"Nathanos Blightcaller says: Gallywix has operations underway in Silithus. Get there at once. And if you see any Alliance skulking about, make quick work of them."

I'm sure "making quick work" of someone means having a stern word with them.



He says it when you accept the quest to go to Silithus. Y'know, before SI:7 is even up to things.



So your suggestion is for the Alliance to send miners even before they know what the hell is going on.

Get over it. The Alliance's behaviour in Silithus is completely sensible and, as it turns out, justified. You don't get to hide behind "oh, we're just poor miners minding our own business" when you're extraction the fantasy equivalent of uranium in order to militarize it. Sylvanas' decision to ramp up production and mine the shit out of Silithus before anyone else can is what provokes the Alliance and escalates the conflict. It makes the Horde just as guilty as the Alliance.

But hey, muh poor Horde/Alliance victim complex/bias or something.

It's incredible how you bend over the omnipresence quality of the Alliance characters in your narrative to justify what they were doing... I mean in one moment they don't know about Azerite but they know Sylvanas is up to no good with the Azerite they know nothing about but still in the end they know they're in the right by attacking the Horde, even though they don't know why, yet.
You gotta get into the perspective of the whole thing. Respect the events happening and see it through the NPCs' eyes, because they're not omnipresent - that's where the Faction conflict lays.
Let's go at it once more: At the time Anduin was informed of the Azerite they knew Horde was mining stuff (where do you think Shaw got that ore from?). So they could've sent miners instead of the PC and more SI7 and started mining shit, instead of blowing up and infiltrating Horde camps. But they didn't. They sent the PC and SI7 and you had the mission to help the infiltrators kill goblins and get the ores for further examination. Instead of a peaceful approach, the Crown decided to fuck the Horde camps up, which prompted Sylvanas to say "fuck no, no Azerite for them!".

[Mehrunes]

"Nathanos Blightcaller says: Gallywix has operations underway in Silithus. Get there at once. And if you see any Alliance skulking about, make quick work of them."

I'm sure "making quick work" of someone means having a stern word with them.

It may just as well mean putting there in the mining camp as forced labor. Either way, the subject here is still Gallywix' operation, i.e. the mining camp. Not the entirety of Silithus like you claimed.

So your suggestion is for the Alliance to send miners even before they know what the hell is going on.

Mining a resource you want to know more about is a good way to gather samples to learn more about it, yes.

Get over it. The Alliance's behaviour in Silithus is completely sensible and, as it turns out, justified. You don't get to hide behind "oh, we're just poor miners minding our own business" when you're extraction the fantasy equivalent of uranium in order to militarize it. Sylvanas' decision to ramp up production and mine the shit out of Silithus before anyone else can is what provokes the Alliance and escalates the conflict. It makes the Horde just as guilty as the Alliance.

Yeah, attacking the other faction when you don't know shit is super sensible and super justified. And since Sylvanas wasn't mining in Alliance territory, they are free to mine the shit out of whatever they please and they don't have to consult that with the Alliance, nor does it constitute a provocation.

[Serenais]

>.> you know... that wall of text explaining why it wasn;'t possible to evacuate theremore dind't take into account the uber mages present being able to portal to stormwind...

or mass teleport... but that would just take away the drama entirely and make too much sense

Question is whether they can teleport that many people at once, or repeatedly. We only ever saw Jaina (who is supposed to be one of the most powerful) teleport only a handful of people over a relatively short distance (within the scale of a map, although that is an ingame limitation); we never saw anyone doing a large scale teleport over a large distance that the evacuation would require.

They could have opened a portal, though, I agree. Nobody did, or didn't even consider it, though, so question is why. We can either put it on writer not thinking this through, or there being some limitation to, say, how much a portal can transport before it goes away, how many a mage can cast during a certain time, and so on. In this, we can't take the player mage portals at face value - players are capable of things for gameplay reasons that shouldn't be able by anyone or by a very small number of people (ie. mass ressurection).
Anywho, the book doesn't mention any sort of portals or mass teleports even attempted until Rhonin pushed Jaina through a portal just a shy distance away from the city just before the mana bomb exploded. Considering that portals WERE used in the book, but only for individuals, I assume that the author considered them not viable for large scale transportation that the evacuation would require.
Otherwise, as you said, they would just do that. Even if we consider the Theramore leadership to be absolutely inept, the Kirin Tor mages were also present, and they are supposed to be at the top of their class. So if even they didn't attempt it, there must be some sort of limitation.

That being said, large scale transportation via teleports of large number of people and/or portals being impossible (or hard to the point of not being viable for evacuation of Theramore) is also necessary for Garrosh's scheme with the mana bomb working. If it would become obvious that he is after Theramore and that the Horde would be able to just blockade Dustwallow Marsh entrance via Shady Rest pass, there would be no point in further defending Theramore and it would be much easier to just teleport and portal people out and abandon the whole city for the time being than to funnel in immense number of forces.

There is the case of teleportation of Dalaran in Legion, however, that requires the whole Council of Six, and probably can be done only for Dalaran itself (or requires other extraordinary circumstance). Otherwise I don't see why it wouldn't be not only used for Theramore, but in general - and especially weaponised. Why bother with a mana bomb when you could just get six trained mages and drop a city-size rock on the enemy forces/infrastracture repeatedly.