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  1. #141
    Legendary! Lahis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OneWay View Post
    I don't think he said anything that "non oppressive" governments aren't doing as well. But oh, it's communism! It's China!
    Sure, all governments are afraid of free information. It can always be used against them.

  2. #142
    Quote Originally Posted by bungeebungee View Post
    It doesn't really matter to me if you do or you don't, what matters to me is that apparently all is fine and good in the US ... things are just a problem in China. Oppression is such a handily flexible phrase that way.



    It's quite subjective. You are taking a set of values as you see them and using them as a filter to justify how you want another culture to react. Slogans are great, but at the end of things reality needs to be faced. That reality is that there are 1.3 to 1.6 billion people who need to be fed, housed and employed. Among the oppressive measures of the Chinese government, those bastards are trying to get toilets for everyone! http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/201..._136783293.htm

    Regime change has had consequences in the Middle East. We can look back to the Taiping Rebellion and see how that fueled a rush of Chinese overseas. It remains to be seen if the current initiative to move China to a socialist model will work. There will undoubtedly be stumbles given the size of China's population, regional differences, and other factors. Recall, however, that China is barely more than 100 years out of feudalism and the emergence of regional warlords was a problem for quite a while after the last dynasty was replaced. Even today, groups like Eastern Lightning are trying to build cults of personality that represent a worse direction things could go.
    Who is saying everything is fine and good in the United States? Do you enjoy building Godzilla-sized straw men?

    I'm going to go ahead and stick with freedom on this one, thanks.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Katie N View Post
    Your ideas of freedom will lead to destabilization of society, no thank you. I prefer stability over chaos.
    Thanks for making my case for me, enjoy that oppression.

    The only real question is how much oppression you want to tolerate in order to have that stability. Are you in favor of genocide? I would hope not. So, your sweet spot is somewhere in between denial of freedom of speech and expression, and murder. I'll let you try and point to exactly how much oppression you are willing to tolerate.

    On that note, Tiananmen Square actually happened.

    I'm going to go ahead and stick with freedom on this one, thanks.
    Quote Originally Posted by Destroyer of Leftism View Post
    While I certainly support more sex for more people and don't think the old norms are viable, it's also become pretty obvious that leftists only support sexual freedom because they think it will spread STDs more, damage the family and damage society. Their intentions are not to spread more freedom, they just want people sick, hopefully dependent on their healthcare too.
    Yes, someone actually said that.

  3. #143
    Scarab Lord bungeebungee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo
    I'm going to go ahead and stick with parroting random buzzwords on this one, thanks.
    I fixed your typo.

    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo
    Who is saying everything is fine and good in the United States?
    Handy how much of the language you quoted flew over your head for this one.

    If people studiously ignore problems in other places because "ZOMG CHINA" it isn't necessary to say everything is fine and good in the US because it is being treated as a given that they are. In particular, this thread starts with an article quoting Xi as saying: “We cannot let the internet become a platform for disseminating harmful information and stirring up trouble with rumors,” To address that as a perceived ill, while ignoring the extent to which similar issues are boiling away in the US (thread was started by a US poster) is pretty biased. We have a president actively calling things he doesn't like fake news, specifically taking aim at the media at rallies, restricting media access and what do we get in this thread? We get posts that seem to ignore all of those things because they're apparently only a problem if a Chinese guy says them.
    "No one -- however smart, however well-educated, however experienced -- is the suppository of all wisdom"

    Quote Originally Posted by Katie N
    Wtf? No weapons? xD What is this? Restricted training environment?
    Commenting on "anything goes" for martial arts and self defense

  4. #144
    Quote Originally Posted by bungeebungee View Post
    I fixed your typo.



    Handy how much of the language you quoted flew over your head for this one.

    If people studiously ignore problems in other places because "ZOMG CHINA" it isn't necessary to say everything is fine and good in the US because it is being treated as a given that they are. In particular, this thread starts with an article quoting Xi as saying: “We cannot let the internet become a platform for disseminating harmful information and stirring up trouble with rumors,” To address that as a perceived ill, while ignoring the extent to which similar issues are boiling away in the US (thread was started by a US poster) is pretty biased. We have a president actively calling things he doesn't like fake news, specifically taking aim at the media at rallies, restricting media access and what do we get in this thread? We get posts that seem to ignore all of those things because they're apparently only a problem if a Chinese guy says them.
    Who says I'm ignoring shit? You keep trying to make inferences that I'm ignoring other problems, but I'm not. If you wish to discuss those problems, then bring it into those other threads. This is about China, if you want to talk about Trump... then you will easily find me on those threads.

    China has a government that is actively trying to silence free speech, and remove freedom of thought. Hell, most people in China are not even allowed to learn about Tiananmen Square.

    Tiananmen Square happened, are you willing to admit that?
    Quote Originally Posted by Destroyer of Leftism View Post
    While I certainly support more sex for more people and don't think the old norms are viable, it's also become pretty obvious that leftists only support sexual freedom because they think it will spread STDs more, damage the family and damage society. Their intentions are not to spread more freedom, they just want people sick, hopefully dependent on their healthcare too.
    Yes, someone actually said that.

  5. #145
    Elemental Lord Jinro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post

    Tiananmen Square happened, are you willing to admit that?
    Has anyone in the thread denied that it happened?

  6. #146
    Quote Originally Posted by Freighter View Post
    Has anyone in the thread denied that it happened?
    Did I say they had?

    Consider it a test.
    Quote Originally Posted by Destroyer of Leftism View Post
    While I certainly support more sex for more people and don't think the old norms are viable, it's also become pretty obvious that leftists only support sexual freedom because they think it will spread STDs more, damage the family and damage society. Their intentions are not to spread more freedom, they just want people sick, hopefully dependent on their healthcare too.
    Yes, someone actually said that.

  7. #147
    Elemental Lord Jinro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Did I say they had?

    Consider it a test.
    What's the point of even asking if someone is willing to admit something has happened if there has been no denial about the events?

  8. #148
    Quote Originally Posted by Freighter View Post
    What's the point of even asking if someone is willing to admit something has happened if there has been no denial about the events?
    Well, the entire discussion is about the limitations of free speech and the press in China, so it's very relevant.
    Quote Originally Posted by Destroyer of Leftism View Post
    While I certainly support more sex for more people and don't think the old norms are viable, it's also become pretty obvious that leftists only support sexual freedom because they think it will spread STDs more, damage the family and damage society. Their intentions are not to spread more freedom, they just want people sick, hopefully dependent on their healthcare too.
    Yes, someone actually said that.

  9. #149
    Elemental Lord Jinro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Well, the entire discussion is about the limitations of free speech and the press in China, so it's very relevant.
    Not particularly relevant to the forum as nobody is denying it happened, here.

  10. #150
    Quote Originally Posted by Freighter View Post
    Not particularly relevant to the forum as nobody is denying it happened, here.
    Well, that's your opinion, but it's a very important issue in regards to China and why they push policies such as this. We have historical evidence as to the motives for such action, as well as the consequences. This isn't a matter of what COULD happen, it's a matter of what has ALREADY happened.

    The poster claims to be in China, which may, or may not be true. Personally, I think it is true. If it is, what happens if he or she brings up that event from 30 years ago? What happens if they try and talk about it? What happens if they try to teach others about it?

    f the other poster cannot talk about it, or refuses to acknowledge the atrocities that happened, then that speaks volumes, does it not? The fact is that most people in China are not able to see such imagery.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tianan...otests_of_1989

    https://www.history.com/this-day-in-...re-takes-place

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-a8126461.html

    Many people in China will never have the freedom to see these things, or to openly speak of them.
    Last edited by Machismo; 2018-04-26 at 02:37 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Destroyer of Leftism View Post
    While I certainly support more sex for more people and don't think the old norms are viable, it's also become pretty obvious that leftists only support sexual freedom because they think it will spread STDs more, damage the family and damage society. Their intentions are not to spread more freedom, they just want people sick, hopefully dependent on their healthcare too.
    Yes, someone actually said that.

  11. #151
    Quote Originally Posted by Lahis View Post
    Opressive government afraid of free exchange of information.

    Water is also still wet.

    More news at 11.
    You miss the biggest point. Today, the strongest weapon of USA is information control and propaganda. They are constantly trying to get the control of other countries media to spread their propaganda against one party and to make them elect a puppet president or simply create civil wars. It is not even a conspiracy, in CIA declassified documents, you can read how many times they did it in the past (they only declassify files after a number of years).
    The only way you can protect your country from this is to censure foreign information. But then when they do this, we call it an attack on freedom of speech and so we call their leader a dictator and so we have a reason to invade the country in the name of freedom.

  12. #152
    Quote Originally Posted by lummiuster View Post
    You miss the biggest point. Today, the strongest weapon of USA is information control and propaganda. They are constantly trying to get the control of other countries media to spread their propaganda against one party and to make them elect a puppet president or simply create civil wars. It is not even a conspiracy, in CIA declassified documents, you can read how many times they did it in the past (they only declassify files after a number of years).
    The only way you can protect your country from this is to censure foreign information. But then when they do this, we call it an attack on freedom of speech and so we call their leader a dictator and so we have a reason to invade the country in the name of freedom.
    You are literally calling for propaganda and control in order to stop propaganda and control...

    It's interesting that one can gain access to declassified documents from the American government, yet you are calling for outright opaqueness and censorship...

    Jesus, the irony is fucking insane.
    Quote Originally Posted by Destroyer of Leftism View Post
    While I certainly support more sex for more people and don't think the old norms are viable, it's also become pretty obvious that leftists only support sexual freedom because they think it will spread STDs more, damage the family and damage society. Their intentions are not to spread more freedom, they just want people sick, hopefully dependent on their healthcare too.
    Yes, someone actually said that.

  13. #153
    Dreadlord Sellest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bungeebungee View Post
    I'm of two minds on this...
    Thank you for your insight on this. I am all up for free of speech and access to information. Problem starts when people without critical thinking access information which is not true and they start believing it.

  14. #154
    Scarab Lord bungeebungee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo
    Did I say they had?
    Internet jackassery detected. No, I think I'll leave it to you to go back and read my posts in this thread. When you find the one where I denied something, bring it to my attention and I'll respond.

    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo
    This is about China, if you want to talk about Trump... then you will easily find me on those threads.
    No. To be specific, this is about countries controlling Internet access. If you want to say China's approach to it is wrong, be prepared to distinguish what Xi says from what Trump says. You're going to have to work harder to have your scapegoat.

    @Freighter Would you do me the favor of going back to my earlier posts in this thread and linking for this meathead the posts where I specifically accessed Tiananmen articles (including a Tank Guy photo), mentioned talking to people who were there, etc? I already did the "This is blocked/nobody can see/they arrest people" dance once this round. I wonder how he thinks I'm posting in this thread?
    "No one -- however smart, however well-educated, however experienced -- is the suppository of all wisdom"

    Quote Originally Posted by Katie N
    Wtf? No weapons? xD What is this? Restricted training environment?
    Commenting on "anything goes" for martial arts and self defense

  15. #155
    Quote Originally Posted by bungeebungee View Post
    Internet jackassery detected. No, I think I'll leave it to you to go back and read my posts in this thread. When you find the one where I denied something, bring it to my attention and I'll respond.



    No. To be specific, this is about countries controlling Internet access. If you want to say China's approach to it is wrong, be prepared to distinguish what Xi says from what Trump says. You're going to have to work harder to have your scapegoat.

    @Freighter Would you do me the favor of going back to my earlier posts in this thread and linking for this meathead the posts where I specifically accessed Tiananmen articles (including a Tank Guy photo), mentioned talking to people who were there, etc? I already did the "This is blocked/nobody can see/they arrest people" dance once this round. I wonder how he thinks I'm posting in this thread?
    So, you guys are all free to talk about how bad the government is, that Tiananmen Square was an affront to free speech and politics?

    Here's the thing, Trump is an authoritarian asshat. Luckily, we have a constitutional republic that can stop him from doing a lot of the heinous shit that he wants to do. Your leader has far more authority, and is even more anti-freedom than Trump.
    Quote Originally Posted by Destroyer of Leftism View Post
    While I certainly support more sex for more people and don't think the old norms are viable, it's also become pretty obvious that leftists only support sexual freedom because they think it will spread STDs more, damage the family and damage society. Their intentions are not to spread more freedom, they just want people sick, hopefully dependent on their healthcare too.
    Yes, someone actually said that.

  16. #156
    Scarab Lord bungeebungee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo
    So, you guys are all free to talk about how bad the government is, that Tiananmen Square was an affront to free speech and politics?
    No gold star for you. Catch up and read what I've written so far, I'm not going to rewrite it for each new entrant. Clumsy as the search feature is, you should be able to manage to do it yourself.

    @Freighter Sorry, never mind. After this last post, I can see this would be like trying to show a flat Earther pictures from orbit. What can a simple 14 year old Chinese girl do? I knew I should have used an MLP avatar!
    "No one -- however smart, however well-educated, however experienced -- is the suppository of all wisdom"

    Quote Originally Posted by Katie N
    Wtf? No weapons? xD What is this? Restricted training environment?
    Commenting on "anything goes" for martial arts and self defense

  17. #157
    Quote Originally Posted by bungeebungee View Post
    No gold star for you. Catch up and read what I've written so far, I'm not going to rewrite it for each new entrant. Clumsy as the search feature is, you should be able to manage to do it yourself.

    @Freighter Sorry, never mind. After this last post, I can see this would be like trying to show a flat Earther pictures from orbit. What can a simple 14 year old Chinese girl do? I knew I should have used an MLP avatar!
    That's not really an answer to the question, is it?

    I'm going to go ahead and side with freedom on this one... freedom is awesome.
    Quote Originally Posted by Destroyer of Leftism View Post
    While I certainly support more sex for more people and don't think the old norms are viable, it's also become pretty obvious that leftists only support sexual freedom because they think it will spread STDs more, damage the family and damage society. Their intentions are not to spread more freedom, they just want people sick, hopefully dependent on their healthcare too.
    Yes, someone actually said that.

  18. #158
    Warchief Deldavala's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    So, you guys are all free to talk about how bad the government is, that Tiananmen Square was an affront to free speech and politics?
    It is perfectly legal to have a civil discussion about the shortcomings of the goverment(I have attended two such events in Beijing with more than 500 participants), its also legal to discuss Tiananmen Square both the overreaction from the goverment and the politcal background it stemmed from. What isnt legal is trying to rile up the public with talks about "Reigniting the revolution" and "Tear down the goverment".

  19. #159
    Quote Originally Posted by Deldavala View Post
    It is perfectly legal to have a civil discussion about the shortcomings of the goverment(I have attended two such events in Beijing with more than 500 participants), its also legal to discuss Tiananmen Square both the overreaction from the goverment and the politcal background it stemmed from. What isnt legal is trying to rile up the public with talks about "Reigniting the revolution" and "Tear down the goverment".
    So, you are not in Norway?

    What exactly defines "civil discussion?"
    Quote Originally Posted by Destroyer of Leftism View Post
    While I certainly support more sex for more people and don't think the old norms are viable, it's also become pretty obvious that leftists only support sexual freedom because they think it will spread STDs more, damage the family and damage society. Their intentions are not to spread more freedom, they just want people sick, hopefully dependent on their healthcare too.
    Yes, someone actually said that.

  20. #160
    Warchief Deldavala's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    So, you are not in Norway?

    What exactly defines "civil discussion?"
    Currently I am in Norway, I just came back from a seminar in Guangzhou.

    Not sure about the definition, but there was order in our debate. In the first one I attended there was 8 Officials from different parts of the goverment, all having an open panel debate. People had to sign up to ask questions and they would answer them. My chinese is not good enough to follow everything, but I got the main arguments. There was a point where one guy got stopped before he could finish since he started derailing about someting, and started slinging personal insults to one of the panel members.

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