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  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by rogerwilko View Post
    Maybe when/if MM will be simpler, the mentality that BM is 'brain dead' / 'for noobs' so the players who chose BM are 'unworthy and below me' will also be gone.
    How would that work, it would only turn MM into the same category....
    However, I don't think that this is MMs/BMs problem right now. The specs themselves feel bad - in MY opinion.

    I do enjoy MM a lot less in BFA than in Legion... by a huge margin, but I was also someone who said that the vulnerability-mechanic was actually adding depth to MM and liked it from day 1. And when Sidewinders became an option instead of being mandatory, MM was at it's best.
    But even if I ignore that, what I'm seeing on the screen in BFA while playing it, is so boring. It's a downgrade - it's putting us back a decade from a design perspective imho. The talents are a complete joke - useless +% overalldmg passives all around and even the active talents are not adding *anything* to my gameplay.

    Whether I can move or not doesn't matter, the whole thing is lacking.
    AiS/MM hunter could deal 5 times more damage than any other spec, it would still be boring to watch and play.

    Lets just compare MM with Demo - which for a reason is currently liked by the community, even by other classes. Without talents

    MM:

    Steady Shot - Generator
    AiS - Spender + high dmg ability with CD
    AS - Spender - used to not cap out on Focus
    RF - High dmg Ability with CD - Generator

    That's MM - you already know how to play it with that alone.

    Demo:

    SB - Generator for Ressource 1
    Felhounds - Ressource 1 Spender Dmg Ability (DoT) with CD - Generator for Ressource 2
    Ressource 2 - used for high dmg abilities, enables movement, can be stored for future use.
    HoG - Ressource 1 Spender Dmg Ability, no CD, usable for movement - Generator for Ressource 2 (souls through imps) and Ressource 3 (imps)- amount of damage and ressource generated depends on amount of ressource 1 spent
    Ressource 3 - used for burst, AoE and movement, will decay over time. Will always consume the whole ressource "bar" (imps)
    Implosion - will transfer DoT damage into AoE + Burst - loss of overall damage as payment.
    Demonbolt - Ressource 2 Spender - better Generator for Ressource 1 - enables movement, ST burst -

    Does not only sound as if it has a whole different level of depth to it, but it also plays amazingly well and demands decision making on the fly. Skills interact with each other.
    Last edited by KrayZee; 2018-06-17 at 08:17 PM.

  2. #122
    Epic! rogerwilko's Avatar
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    I spent a few hours on the Beta MM. It does feel strange. BUT! I don't main Hunter, so can't really compare it with the current MM or the older ones. I'm just looking at all the classes and specs that I'm interested through my prism. Pew pew-ing the target dummy and some mobs it's what I did so far.

    Regarding Demo, yes, they put a lot of thought into it. It's definitely another 'team' (?) that worked on the spec, than the team handling Hunters. It has a different flavor / ideas / interactions.

    But diversity is good. IMO it's very healthy for WoW to have very different specs and classes. Because there are many many types of players.

  3. #123

  4. #124
    Pit Lord Daethz's Avatar
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    I enjoyed MM with sidewinders in early Legion, you actually had to put effort into where you where standing in relation to your target to maximize your dps.
    And then they nerfed it to death and made Sidewinders useless, pushing us back into the mindless focus gain focus discharge rotation and nothing more while keeping the spec weak in relation to to other classes and specs.

    Atleast with sidewinders fights with plenty of mobs in the vicinity of the boss/or infront of the boss would allow you to get an edge on any other spec or class out there, that's gone now.

  5. #125
    Yep, they completely misunderstood (or understood too well: fun detected, fun deleted) why everyone liked SW:PS so much. Bad hunters, your gameplay is supposed to be managing your resource while other classes dps! That's why it's coming back with a vengeance in BFA.

    The MM/Demo analysis really lays out just how boring focus is. Oh, but extra buttons add complexity! Wrong, they just add more focus shots to try to pay for diluting damage over more buttons.
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    I'll buy an Anduin shirt if Delaryn doesn't end up betraying Sylvanas by the end of the expansion.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex86el View Post
    "Orc want, orc take." and "Orc dissagrees, orc kill you to win argument."

  6. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by Daethz View Post
    I enjoyed MM with sidewinders in early Legion, you actually had to put effort into where you where standing in relation to your target to maximize your dps.
    And then they nerfed it to death and made Sidewinders useless, pushing us back into the mindless focus gain focus discharge rotation and nothing more while keeping the spec weak in relation to to other classes and specs.

    Atleast with sidewinders fights with plenty of mobs in the vicinity of the boss/or infront of the boss would allow you to get an edge on any other spec or class out there, that's gone now.
    And it replaced arcane and multi shot, two abilities that are both boring and unsatisfying, imo.

  7. #127
    Epic! rogerwilko's Avatar
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    Why do people say MM is boring (on beta)? Is it because it has few procs / because it's predictable?

  8. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by rogerwilko View Post
    Why do people say MM is boring (on beta)? Is it because it has few procs / because it's predictable?
    few procs, clunky, and very very simple - no real synergy in the talent choices to get different feeling builds. It's fundamentally boring.
    1) Load the amount of weight I would deadlift onto the bench
    2) Unrack
    3) Crank out 15 reps
    4) Be ashamed of constantly skipping leg day

  9. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by rogerwilko View Post
    Why do people say MM is boring (on beta)? Is it because it has few procs / because it's predictable?
    Super basic, stale, the screen is "dead" and inputs are "slow".
    I'm missing the satisfaction I get out of Legion-AiS and there is nothing in that spec that could spice things up (like procs or short timed buffs) - the talents are an insult

    BM looks like it'd be the more complex spec tbh. And BM is pretty simple already.

  10. #130
    The only gripe I have with MM atm is the lack of «cool» procs (Lock n’ Load being a talent makes it too reliable on beating its competitors), otherwise I actually like the slowed down pace of MM. I’ve always enjoyed having singular «BOOM» spells (Chaos Bolt, super-juiced Mortal Strikes for Arms etc), and right now firing off an AiS feels like it hurt like a bitch for the mob I hit. The slower pace also makes your character stop having constant eplieptic seizures in its animations, except for rapid fire. The foaming at the mouth goes on full speed there.

    I’ve been a hunter main for every expansion bar Legion, where the vulnerability mechanic and the loss of being able to hard-swap to priority targets at a whim made me leave the class in disgust. Coming back in full for BfA tho!

  11. #131
    Great, welcome back! We no longer have decent AoE, most talents are boring passives/don't feel like the build really changes, focus regen is slower, and it's lost what little complexity Legion had. But at least that nasty vulnerable went away!
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    I'll buy an Anduin shirt if Delaryn doesn't end up betraying Sylvanas by the end of the expansion.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex86el View Post
    "Orc want, orc take." and "Orc dissagrees, orc kill you to win argument."

  12. #132
    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    Great, welcome back! We no longer have decent AoE, most talents are boring passives/don't feel like the build really changes, focus regen is slower, and it's lost what little complexity Legion had. But at least that nasty vulnerable went away!
    To each their own I guess, but out of the beta-classes I’ve played so far, by far the most enjoyable spec is MM, with the lock specs being a close 2nd. It’s a shame that the new iteration of MM sucks for you, but I will agree with you on the current talents’ lack of impact on the spec. Most of them are simply «which passive will give me the most simmed dps» instead of considerably changing your playstyle. The Steady Shot talents are especially jarring, considering how little use the ability gets in your rotation.

  13. #133
    There is something I don't understand about this thread.

    Here is how current MM plays now:
    ...->Marked shot->Arcane->(Arcane?)->Aim->Aim->Arcane untill buff->repeat. And some windbursts on top of that.
    And not much outside of that.

    Getting rid of that is "putting us back a decade from a design perspective"? Like...really?
    If anything is "fundamentally boring" it is that "rotation". 2 button+1 trigger.
    Comparing to current MM even BM feels like complicated spec (at least you need to manage DF stacks...)

    As for MM in BfA - I play a bit MM on beta and it seems more fluid, less repetitive and overall better. Even focus management is there.
    Don't forget the ability to move outside of Aim.
    (if Serpent Sting happens to be good choice for dps - we will even have a dot to manage.)

    Yeah, talents may have better synergy. But comparing to current common talent choices I don't see any "synergy loss" since it is not much there.

  14. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by Dikka View Post
    Here is how current MM plays now:
    ...->Marked shot->Arcane->(Arcane?)->Aim->Aim->Arcane untill buff->repeat. And some windbursts on top of that.
    And not much outside of that.
    aside from the fact that this is the optimal scenario which you have to plan and adjust for during every encounter whatsoever and that this has been the only time Hunter ever had something like that

    Getting rid of that is "putting us back a decade from a design perspective"? Like...really?
    If anything is "fundamentally boring" it is that "rotation". 2 button+1 trigger.
    .....Even focus management is there......
    exactly, a decade. you are back to 2 cooldowns, a generator and a spender.
    We used mana in BC/Wotlk, but if you consider SS as a "generator" and AS as the spender (which enabled movement back then), then that's exactly like it has been during that time.
    Wotlk MM - You use AiS on cooldown, you use CS on cooldown
    BFA - You use AiS on cooldown - (or as soon as you can since you can't cast it on the move),you use Rapid fire on cooldown.
    Doesn't even matter if you are at 100% focus, AS is piss poor damage compared to RF, getting RF off is most likely more important than making use of the Focus generation.

    BFA MM Focus management doesn't exist, you spend as much as possible and remain at a very low threshold. Since AiS has 2 stacks, you just don't give a damn about it.

    Not to mention that when you pick barrage, you have 2 channel skills that are not only boring as hell to watch, but also make your toon look like it has spasms
    Last edited by KrayZee; 2018-06-25 at 09:27 PM.

  15. #135
    I know numbers-tuning is still ETA and *shouldn’t* be something to worrry about yet, but wat? Rapid Fire does more damage than Aimed Shot? I could get behind that if Rapid Fire was another spender and Steady Shot got its generation upped to compensate, but if they want MM to fit the fantasy of «steady, patient sniper» making the machine-gun seizure-attack its highest prio is all wrong. Those AiS you get off should defo have the biggest oomph to them. That was another of my gripes with Legion MM, where I couldn’t engage an enemy by «surprising» them with a hard-hitting Aimed Shot (Arenas/RBGs with Camouflage > Aimed Shot to nuke away some poor fellas health before he even knew you were there was so much fun in MoP/WoD)

  16. #136
    Rapid fire does more damage than anything else. Aimed shot hits like an arcane shot (unless you crit in the first aimed with the execute talent), it feels so bad when you wait 2,5 sec to see that low dmg.....

    After been playing the beta a lot, trying the raids and leveling and after all the changes i still find mm in a bad situation, better than in the beggining but still bad.

    - The rotation is still braindead, it doesnt really matter the talents you choose the rotation won´t change significantly
    - True Shot is not a Cooldown, when you use it you cant feel the increasing damage and sometimes you have to delay it 30 sec because you dont run out of charges.
    - The damage from aimed shot is low compared to the overall but the total damage that aimed shot gives combined with precise shots it´s really really big. Cancelling an aimed shot drops the dps too much.
    - Explosive shot is still the best talent in this row for single target and of course AOE. The perspective in this game and the graphics make very hard to know when to activate it, I don´t think this mechanic is the correct one for this game.
    - Steady focus is useless since it lowers the casting time more than the global cooldown so at the end its like it does nothing since you cant spam it because you have to wait for the gcd.

    And there a lot more issues that I wont tell right now, maybe another day.
    I still have hope, but the release date is closer everyday and I don´t see real changes

  17. #137
    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    Butthurt BM detected. Maybe if BM wasn't "press buttons on CD, AI does 50%+ of damage, laugh at mechanics because of infinite mobility", it wouldn't have that reputation. In any case, this isn't a BM thread, please troll elsewhere.
    Oooooo, look at me, I'm playing Bastion in WoW. I'm so skilled at mashing Aimed Shot while I'm rooted in place.

  18. #138
    Not liking the mastery nerf they just put into the new build or soon to be build. Went from 250% to 140% of spell power on our shots. Overall I'll stick with MM until it really just craps the bed then if need be I'll switch either to a tank toon or BM

  19. #139
    Quote Originally Posted by Ultraxion View Post
    Oooooo, look at me, I'm playing Bastion in WoW. I'm so skilled at mashing Aimed Shot while I'm rooted in place.
    Took you over a week to read that and reply, eh? It's ok, now go whistle, roar, and generally spazz around while Fluffykins does all the work. No need to know the fight or plan, you can just constantly run!

    Now, back on topic. Please tell me I missed something and they're just using "spell power" as a generic term now.
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    I'll buy an Anduin shirt if Delaryn doesn't end up betraying Sylvanas by the end of the expansion.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex86el View Post
    "Orc want, orc take." and "Orc dissagrees, orc kill you to win argument."

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