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  1. #1

    Cool India Finally Says to Hell with the Russian Su-57 (PAK FA).

    India's long national nightmare is finally over. After a decade of back and forth with Russia over producing an UPGRADED version of the deeply troubled Su-57 (aka the PAK FA aka the T-50), India has finally had enough and told them to get lost.

    http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone...am-with-russia
    http://www.janes.com/article/79457/i...to-go-it-alone



    India has reportedly stopped working with Russia on the long-troubled Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft program, or FGFA, a shared effort that was supposed to produce an improved variant of the equally vexing Su-57 stealth fighter. Though hardly surprising, with years of reports that the Indian government has become increasingly disappointed in the project’s progress and the aircraft's capabilities, the decision could have significant ramifications for both countries.

    On April 20, 2018, Jane’s 360 reported that the Indian Air Force had put FGFA program on indefinite hold, citing unnamed official sources. India’s National Security Adviser Ajit Doval and Defense Secretary Sanjay Mitra had reportedly told visiting Russian officials of the decision in February 2018. Similar reports also appeared in domestic Indian outlets.

    Officials from India and Russia have not offered any official statement to confirm the program has come to an end and Indian officials have reportedly indicated that they might be willing to revisit the project in the future. This bureaucratic maneuvering may allow both sides to avoid having to acknowledge that the effort has collapsed, which is messaging Russia would be especially sensitive to.

    Regardless, it appears the FGFA project is effectively dead following more than a decade of negotiations, delays, and struggles with the Su-57. Also known as the T-50 or the PAK FA, that stealth fighter was supposed to serve as the basis for the Indian jet.

    In principle, this made good sense, as India would be able to save time and money by starting with an established design. Fifth generation fighter jet programs have proven to be extremely complex, costly, and time-consuming affairs, and sharing the burden was supposed to offer a win-win situation for both parties. The two countries expected the multi-billion dollar partnership between India’s state-run Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) and Russia’s Sukhoi would lead to a production order of more than 100 FGFAs, with much of the actual manufacturing occurring in India.

    According to the report from India’s Business Standard, the Su-57’s actual low-observable characteristics were among the biggest issues. The War Zone’s own Tyler Rogoway has long called these features into question himself, writing:



    It has seemed increasingly clear that the underlying Su-57 design might simply not be readily adaptable to being stealthier than it is in its present form. India may also feel that it has less flexibility to accept a design that doesn't meet more stringent low-observability requirements, even if it has other features that could offset those deficiencies in the near term, on the promise of receiving a stealthier variant in the future.

    As both the Su-57 and the FGFA have turned into a shared saga, China, one of India’s most likely regional opponents, has surged ahead in developing fifth generation aircraft. The Chinese say that the J-20 stealth fighter is now operational and they are in the process of developing a medium-weight stealth combat jet, as well as a host of stealthy unmanned aircraft, all of which might eventually work together in the future as a manned-unmanned team.

    In addition, Pakistan is reportedly eying cooperating with China on its own fifth generation fighter jet. The two countries already successfully partnered to develop the much simpler JF-17 lightweight fighter.

    Stealth was hardly the Su-57's only issue, though. There have long been concerns about whether the Saturn AL-41F turbofans, or even an advanced derivative thereof, would be sufficient enough to power the Su-57. On top of that, there are just questions about the reliability and quality control of Saturn’s production in general.

    The AL-41 series are derived from the AL-31F, which powers India’s Su-30MKI Flankers. Those turbofans have a very short average time between overhaul (TBO) of around 1,000 hours, at which time they need to go back to a depot, possibly in Russia. The new engines have greatly increased TBO according to their manufacturer, but how accurate such a claim is unknown.

    The Russians did conduct the first flight test of a pre-production Su-57 with the more powerful Saturn Izdeliye 30, another AL-31F derivative, in December 2017. Unfortunately, that engine isn’t slated to enter serial production until at least 2020 and, by the Kremlin's own estimation, is unlikely to be ready to go into a production variant of the stealth fighter until 2025.

    The Su-57’s present design also lacks a “modular engine concept” that could make routine maintenance more time consuming and costly. It also might prevent the Indians from doing more maintenance locally, which could easily have been a non-starter for the country, which makes domestic production and sustainment support a major priority in all of its defense deals.

    Lastly, there have reportedly been major disputes regarding the sharing of technical data relating to the jet’s flight computer and mission software. The Kremlin has apparently repeatedly refused to give its counterparts in New Dehli full access to the code, which would have given the Russians much more control over any final product.

    As combat aircraft become increasingly software-driven in general, both to run their basic flight systems and to manage sensors, targeting, and other data management and transfer functions, this will only become more of an issue for any countries collaborating on advanced designs. Various international partners in the U.S. military’s F-35 Joint Strike Fighter program have begun to increasingly voice concerns that the interconnected nature of that plane’s computer brain could pose a national security risk.

    But while India might see good cause to finally cancel the underperforming FGFA program due to these issues and free up those resources for other projects, it’s not clear if the country will necessarily be able to make good use of them in the near term. Indian officials are separately starting the third iteration of an attempt to buy more than 100 foreign-designed fourth generation fighter jets and build them locally, a separate saga that is itself nearly 20 years old, as well as struggling to squeeze some real capability out of the chronically underwhelming Tejas domestically designed lightweight fighter.

    India still has a clear requirement for a fifth generation fighter and it’s not clear what other options it might have in achieving that goal. It has its own separate Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft program, or AMCA, but is a long-term effort that the FGFA was supposed to have led into in the future. India now wants to link its fourth generation fighter purchases to receiving technical assistance for that project, but it is still unlikely that it would produce any real results soon, even if it were to proceed in a timely fashion.

    The only other course of action that would offer a true fifth generation capability would be to join the F-35 program, which increasingly appears to be the end goal for many in both the U.S. military and India's defense establishment. However, if Indian officials were disappointed with the Russian control of the Su-57s flight computer, they’d almost certainly have difficulty in extracting any better concessions from defense giant Lockheed Martin. So far, only Israel has the right to modify the Joint Strike Fighter’s Autonomic Logistics Information System, or ALIS, and add its own software on top of it – something the U.S. Air Force, Marine Corps, and Navy can’t even do with their jets.

    India could decide to accept some level of enhanced domestic cooperation, such as component construction, final assembly, or depot-level maintenance. Lockheed Martin would be unlikely to offer to establish anything approaching a full local production line for the jets even if the U.S. government were to approve the export of highly-sensitive manufacturing knowledge, which is itself extremely unlikely.

    India could also decide to pursue an advanced fourth-generation design with some limited low-observable features, such as enclosed weapons carriage and radar-absorbent coatings. Boeing is presently offering some of these features as potential options for foreign customers looking to buy the latest iteration of its F/A-18E/F Super Hornet and had pitched a similarly modified version of its F-15E Strike Eagle, called the Silent Eagle, to South Korea and other countries.

    Boeing is in the process of trying to sell Super Hornets to the Indian Navy and will likely submit a bid for the latest iteration of the Indian Air Force fourth generation fighter tender. The prospect of having both services operate the same aircraft, or at least similar variants, could make the aircraft an especially attractive choice in those competitions.

    Russia has proposed an equally limited upgrade of its Su-35S Flanker-E to the United Arab Emirates and other potential customers. It might be able to incorporate some of those updates onto older Flanker derivatives, such as India's existing Su-30MKIs.

    Still, if India felt the Su-57 was stealthy enough and it was unwilling to accept the promise that it would become more so in the future, it’s hard to imagine how any of those options would necessarily meet its requirements. It is possible that the Indian Air Force could purchase a smaller amount of one of those upgraded fourth generation designs as a lower-cost interim solution, but it would still only be a stopgap at best.

    For the Russians, the loss of India as a partner could be even more problematic. Without additional funds from the Indians to help keep the Su-57 program going, the Kremlin might have to scale back its plans for the jet even further.

    Russia had initially hoped it could have built 150 Su-57s, the bulk of those being final production models, by 2020. Moscow eventually scaled that back to an initial purchase of just a dozen jets. It still had not received all of those aircraft by the end of 2017.
    The Kremlin now claims that serial production will begin by the end of 2018 and that it could purchase as many as 220 aircraft in total, another questionable assertion given the country’s recent defense budget cuts and its massive focus on expensive advanced strategic weapons. In February 2018, the Russian Air Force dispatched a pair of the pre-production jets to Syria, but it's unlikely they could have performed any useful missions, for tests purposes or otherwise, during a visit that reportedly lasted less than two days.

    It remains unclear how both parties will decide to proceed now. India’s military procurement process is notoriously long and convoluted, often suffering from accusations of corruption, which could push any new plans for a fifth generation fighter aircraft further into the future. Russia’s own progress on the Su-57 has been painfully slow and despite optimistic pronouncements from the Kremlin and Sukhoi, there’s no guarantee the jets will arrive with the desired features or in anything approaching the numbers that Moscow wants any time soon.

    We'll have to wait and see how much, if anything, either side will ultimately be able to salvage from the abortive FGFA program.

    The problem is, as detailed above, is that the Su-57 is pretty much a uniquely terrible aircraft that does nothing that it's designers says it does. It's very common for the Russian government and Russia-boosters to greatly overplay the capabilities of the country's weapon systems. But it was very clear from the outset: the PAK FA / Su-57 / T-50 is basically an Su-35S (aka a Su-27) dressed up in a costume that looks stealthy to the untrained eye.

    But to the trained eye? Most of all those seeking to buy it? It does everything wrong.

    The engine issue, mentioned for example, is no minor deal. It is a common claim by Russia-boosters that "oh it'll be upgraded". That's ridiculous. The heart of any combat aircraft, and a fighter aircraft in particular, is the engine. They're fundamentally designed around it. Take for example, the 4 big Western fighter programs - the Eurofighter Typhoon, the F-15, the F-22 and the F-35. Their respective engines - the EJ200, the P&W F100, the P&W F119, and the P&W F135 - have all been enormous technology programs in their own right. They have a fighter designed around them all, but they all also saw their engine designs and technology spun off into countless variants and applications (the F100 of the F-15 in particular). The F135 of the F-35 is looking to be the same thing - an engine whose technology is such a step forward it will show up in other military and civilian settings.

    Russia has always had a hard time producing engines comparable to the West (albeit vastly superior to China). That AL-41F, which is a modest AL-31F derivative is the "temporary" core of the Su-57 is a joke and pretty much itself declares the entire aircraft as hot garbage as a 5th Generation fighter. Janes doesn't even consider it as such, rather considering it Generation 4++, comparable to an advanced F-15.

    But really this shouldn't have been surprising whatsoever. Russia has long prided itself on 80% solutions at a fraction of the cost. However 5th Generation fighter aircraft technology can't be done on anything approaching the cheap even to get an 80% solution. It's more like a 20% solution, and still at enormous cost. Unlike the era of the F-15 and F-16 vs the Su-27 and the MiG-29, there is no shortcuts this time. Any country or consortium that want's to make like an F-22 and F-35, have to pay the enormous costs in full for that capability.

    Russia's not alone in figuring this out. Europe is leapfrogging making a direct successor to the Eurofighter and instead is planning a 6th generation fighter to compete with the F-22 successor, around 2035... at absolutely stupendous projected costs. Turkey has been talking about it's indigenous stealth fighter for the bast 15 years and have producing nothing more than wind tunnel concepts. China's J-20 is a weirdly compromised design that is probably only modestly more capable than an Su-57. And Japan is looking likely to entirely forgo a domestic F-X / F-3 fighter of it's own (made by Mitsubishi) and instead is exploring with Lockheed a F-22/F-35 hybrid (aka an F-35 in an F-22 costume), for $40 billion, that would be superior to either. The US itself may be interested in that. Congress and the Air Force even discussed that option last year as part of the plan to potentially restart F-22 production that Obama foolishly scrapped in 2009.

    So wither India? It should just dive in and buy the F-35, which gets more capable by the year, as it's backers said it would. Which really shouldn't have been a surprising thing, when we're talking a too big to fail program with near unlimited money behind it. It was always going to do what it was said to do. But as the article states, the US will never allow an engineering and technology transfer.

    Or maybe it would? One of the last things the Obama Administration did as part of it's Asia policy was to agree to technology transfer of Electromagnetic Catapults for Aircraft Carriers and nuclear reactors for aircraft carriers. It is kind of a brilliant move. If India builds domestic carriers with US-fighter compatible catapults and cables, then their Navy could train in carrier ops and as part of US strike groups, like the US does with France (whose carrier has US-compatible cables and catapults). This would greatly complicate China's security in the naval domain. From that angle, a technology transfer is entirely logical.

    Getting back to the Su-57 though, this is good news for Western Security. Aircraft programs are generational in nature. The F-22 successor program being funded now won't have its aircraft take it's first flight until around 2028 at the earliest, and the first squadron deploy until 2040. Russia is, of course, talking about a Su-57 successor... a sixth generation fighter. If it can't build a true F-22 or F-35 peer - and keep in mind the Indian FGFA variant of the Su-57 was supposed to be superior to Russia's domestic model - it isn't going to build a legitimate sixth generation fighter.

    The fall of the Soviet Union and 1990s and 2000s defense budget cuts severely impacted Russia's ability to maintain it's armed forces' military parity with the West. Russia got kind of lucky that technology difficulties, the Iraq/Afghan Wars and the Financial Crisis allowed 5th generation technology to be procured in far smaller numbers than once envisioned (i.e., 187 F-22s rather than 700), but the money never stopped flowing the technology development, scientific research, and engineering for the west, while it very much did for Russia. If the Soviet Union had never fallen, it is very likely that it would have had a legitimate peer to the F-22 and F-35. But the Su-57 is very much the "best Russia can do" today, and it's best is sorely, sorely lacking. Which means that As the West capitalizes on its technology investments, Russia will be left further and further behind in this critical defense sector. Now considering it is unlikely that US and Russian aircraft will ever (or often) clash, that angle doesn't matter really. But what does matter is the Russian defense industry's ability to export a product that countries are interested in buying. With the Su-57, it runs a very real risk of being entirely eliminated from the low end market by China's superior stealth fighter programs, at the same time Russia's been already utterly decimated in the space launch sector by SpaceX and China. This means the elimination of many Russian industrial jobs, more Russian industrial decline, and a far tighter Russian defense budget.

    So what's the moral of this story? If you're in a race, you can never stop running, no matter how big your lead is. China knows this. Russia has found this out the hard way. And the next time some Western lefty says "butter not guns", remind them of that.

    Russia didn't care about "stealth fighters" for a while. The rest of the world did. And look what it got them: a bad product with no buyers and a serious industrial base problem.

  2. #2
    Deleted
    Read the first jpg again.

    Its not that hard.

    India wanted a two seat plane other role, basically wanting 2 sets of fighters to be built for the price of one...U dont see the US customizing their fighters for others to the extent india wants?

    This isnt their first temper tantrum. They'll be back like they have been before.

    Unless they want Pakistan in on it they would be more than happy to accept the Russian standard of the jet.

    Its funny u wrote wall of text for nothing.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Ser Arthur Dayne View Post
    Read the first jpg again.
    Which part? the part where it says it fell far short on requirements for stealth, avionics, radars and sensors? Or the part where it says the project turned out to be "too little, too late".

    Your attempt at downplaying the program's failure sucks.

    I suggest you read the quoted section below the image, that goes into the Su-57's long list of failures.

    And no, this isn't a temper tantrum. This is the exit, at the end of a saga of program failures.

    It's over.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Maklor View Post
    As much as I appreciate Skroe not being banned this isn't one of the things I agree with him on (the notion that the US needs to put all other powers in their place).
    But I also didn't say anything about that at all.

    This is a thread about

    (1) India quitting Russia's bad jet fighter program.

    (2) Why that jet fighter is bad.

    (3) Why doing advanced technology on the cheap with technology as advanced as the F-35 / F-22 doesn't isn't a thing. This is particularly interesting because this is not the only "F-22 peer" program around the world that's spectacularly failed. It calls into questions countries even trying (from a policy/funding standpoint).

    (4) Why "if you're in a race, you have to keep running".

    Nothing to do with 'America fuck yeah" or anything because of that.

    I mean, here's a list of nominal 5th Generation Fighters:

    F-22 Raptor (USA)
    F-35 Lightning II (USA)

    J-20 (China)
    J-31 (China)
    Su-57 (Russia)

    HAL FGFA (India-Russia Su-57 improved variant)
    HAL AMCA (India)
    X-2 / F-3 (Japan)
    TAI TFX (Turkey)
    Saab 2020 (Sweden)
    KF-X (South Korea)



    -> Most of these have have been talked about for a decade or two, at the very least (and the list is missing some).
    -> Only the bolded ones actually exist in a flyable form despite years of talk and money.
    -> Only the italicized ones exist in number exceeding a handful of samples.

    The failure of the Su-57 and the FGFA program illustrates that doing 5th generation fighter technology on the cheap is REALLY bad policy, and doesn't produce any kind of meaningful results despite still considerable investment... investment that isn't nearly enough to make a true 5th generation fighter. Because of the list above, only the F-22 and more advanced F-35 really qualify.

    And then there is the industrial base angle for Russia. They won't be able to export Su-27 variants forever. What happens when the Chinese J-31 eats their market share and they can't defend it with the Su-57? That's an existential problem for Russia's defense industry, which depends on exports to a degree the US, European and Chinese industries do not.

  5. #5
    Deleted
    No person in his or her right mind would assume that Russia is capable of funding their military industrial complex like America can. Results are evident. Americans spend on defense more than other top 10 countries combined if I am not mistaken.

    This reminds me of much glorified Armata tank that Russia hoped to produce and replace older tank models. Thus far, nothing seems to be happening on that front.

  6. #6
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Skroe View Post
    Which part? the part where it says it fell far short on requirements for stealth, avionics, radars and sensors? Or the part where it says the project turned out to be "too little, too late".

    Your attempt at downplaying the program's failure sucks.

    I suggest you read the quoted section below the image, that goes into the Su-57's long list of failures.

    And no, this isn't a temper tantrum. This is the exit, at the end of a saga of program failures.

    It's over.
    This is prob the 10th temper tantrum O have read n prob the 4th time i have read u claiming "this is it!"
    Excuse muh scepticism

    They say they want to revisit at a later date which isnt 1st time ive heard that, u have a different notion of the meaning of words is n what final say is?

    India wants Russia that is about soon to put the jet into production to instead more focus on prototypes to indian desired specifics. Indians are doing their usual bollywood drama queen diplomacy.

    Too little too late? What? Are we supposed to be invaded by Marsians? Lol? Not like the US have completed orders to their allies n US have been longer at work.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Prabog View Post
    No person in his or her right mind would assume that Russia is capable of funding their military industrial complex like America can. Results are evident. Americans spend on defense more than other top 10 countries combined if I am not mistaken.

    This reminds me of much glorified Armata tank that Russia hoped to produce and replace older tank models. Thus far, nothing seems to be happening on that front.
    The tank is finalizing, west doesn't even have proto-types for new gen tanks.
    Armata platforms are moving into robotization drone platform development.
    May parade will have robots I think.

    As for us budget it very bloated..

  7. #7
    Deleted
    They should've taken the French Rafale Dassault tbh. It would've dominated in that region of the world.

  8. #8
    Russia's economy is smaller than italy's. They really can't play with the big boys.

  9. #9
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Deruyter View Post
    They should've taken the French Rafale Dassault tbh. It would've dominated in that region of the world.
    India is nervous about china + chinese 5th gen jets.
    French fighters aren't a match n US doesn't trust india enuff to sell theirs so india isn't walking out of rus project.

    This is them accepting Russia moving ahead with their own priority n trying to look important to their own bollywood drama consuming citizens.

    What is india going to do? Make their own program? aaahaahaahaaa

  10. #10
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Ser Arthur Dayne View Post
    India is nervous about china + chinese 5th gen jets.
    French fighters aren't a match n US doesn't trust india enuff to sell theirs so india isn't walking out of rus project.

    This is them accepting Russia moving ahead with their own priority n trying to look important to their own bollywood drama consuming citizens.

    What is india going to do? Make their own program? aaahaahaahaaa
    The Dassault Rafale is the only known jet to have scored "kills" against the F22 raptor in training dog fights, so it's more than capable to fight some scrappy Chinese jets that have been built based on stolen designs.

  11. #11
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Ser Arthur Dayne View Post
    The tank is finalizing, west doesn't even have proto-types for new gen tanks.
    Armata platforms are moving into robotization drone platform development.
    May parade will have robots I think.

    As for us budget it very bloated..

    Russian Army planned to order 2,300 T-14s in the period 2015–2020, thus far no progress.

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    Quote Originally Posted by XDurionX View Post
    Russia's economy is smaller than italy's. They really can't play with the big boys.
    Economy is not everything. Nobody cares about Italy in worldwide geopolitics. Their opinion is irrelevant.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Deruyter View Post
    The Dassault Rafale is the only known jet to have scored "kills" against the F22 raptor in training dog fights, so it's more than capable to fight some scrappy Chinese jets that have been built based on stolen designs.
    Almost any Gen 4/Gen 5 fighter can take any other fighter in, let's call it, an arm wrestling match with fighter aircraft. Pilots are trained to fly their aircraft to maximize its strengths and minimize its weaknesses, and all aircraft are intended to operate with respect to other platforms (such as jamming aircraft, AWACs) that are also there.

    For example, an F-22 will in most circumstances, wipe the floor with a Eurofighter Typhoon, but if the Typhoon gets in real close and establishes an energy advantage over the F-22, it's over for the F-22. So the Typhoon will try and do that.

    Similarly if an F-35 gets in close with anything, it's pilot screwed up and is probably dead. But at long ranges and armed with an AIM-120D or MBDA Meteor, it's powerful sensors and radar plus frontal stealth make it easily the most deadly thing in the sky.

    And yeah, a Rafale could shoot down an F-22 in certain modes of flight, with the right conditions. The F-22 is superior in the sense that there are more of those where it will "win".

    The problem with the Su-57 is that it's basically good at nothing at all, at least compared to the alternatives and the promises made by Russia. I mean, is it better than a Su-35s? Probably about the same considering it is essentially the same aircraft internally. But the Su-35 is also a 40 year old design (its actually the latest model of Su-27).

    But all of this is kind of academic in the end. Why? Fighters are so good that the next generation of air superiority "fighters" are very likely to be large, probably sub-sonic bomber-like stealth aircraft with powerful electricity-generating engines and with enormous range that carry dozens of multi-stage A.I. guided missiles that can fire from 300-400 miles away. Why? Because missiles are so good and lasers on aircraft so important to 6th generation plans that in close maneuverability is going to be impossible for any aircraft.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ser Arthur Dayne View Post
    This is prob the 10th temper tantrum O have read n prob the 4th time i have read u claiming "this is it!"
    Excuse muh scepticism
    No. It's just you saying "I don't believe this!"

    Your assent is not required.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ser Arthur Dayne View Post
    Too little too late? What? Are we supposed to be invaded by Marsians? Lol? Not like the US have completed orders to their allies n US have been longer at work.
    Did you not actually read ANYTHING at all in the OP? Not even the image.

    It's too little because it falls far short in every way what India is looking for.
    It's too late because India expected to be in the middle of serial production by now, taking orders of dozens to per year to replace the legacy aircraft it is having retiring due to age. It is "too late" because now India has to cut it's Air Force fleet size without a replacement.

    This is a real concern for them. They can only keep flying old aircraft by overhauling them, which in itself is a major expense that takes away from investing in new platforms and drives up cost of ownership. This is similar to what the USAF when it cut the F-22 order from 400 to 182. It has a requirement of 400 Fighter aircraft, so now it is going to keep 220 F-15Cs in service for years to come and upgrade them to a new standard. But that has dramatically increased costs in its own right.

    Basically India got screwed by listening to Russia's promises.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ser Arthur Dayne View Post
    The tank is finalizing, west doesn't even have proto-types for new gen tanks.
    Russia is always "finalizing" it's programs. It's been finalizing the Borei since I was in high school and that was a very long time ago. The thing still has done like one patrol ever.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ser Arthur Dayne View Post
    Armata platforms are moving into robotization drone platform development.
    Pretty bold statement for a country with essentially no robotics expertise of note. And I say that as a robotics by the way. That's my career. Russia is a non-entity in this field.




    Quote Originally Posted by Ser Arthur Dayne View Post
    May parade will have robots I think.
    RC cars aren't robots.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ser Arthur Dayne View Post
    As for us budget it very bloated..
    Should be about $50 billion higher, most of it going to building up the industrial base, ship building and accelerating the B-21 bomber program / accelerating B-2 and B-1B retirement.

    But the 2018 budget that incresed it by $120 billion was a very good start.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Deruyter View Post
    They should've taken the French Rafale Dassault tbh. It would've dominated in that region of the world.
    Rafale would have been a fine aircraft to buy, 10 years ago. It's a bit late for that now. It's an aging design. I mean, it's in the prime of it's life, but if India signed a contract tomorrow, it would get its first Rafales probably around 2023 (2026 or later if it sets up a domestic factory), and then would have ownership of dozens to hundreds of rafales through at least the 2060s.

    This is kind of the hole the USAF found itself in last year when it re-examined restarting F-22 production. If it it did it and bought another 100 aircraft, it wouldn't get them at a rate of around 20 a year for five years until around 2024, and then be stuck with them until the 2070s, when it wanted to retire the F-22 (an 1990s design) around 2045. The USAF needed to buy those F-22s in the mid 2000s, not the late 2010s.

  13. #13
    Why should I care what planes India buys or not ?

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Ser Arthur Dayne View Post
    India is nervous about china + chinese 5th gen jets.
    French fighters aren't a match
    Rafales with the right missile could probably take any fighter China has, including the J-20.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ser Arthur Dayne View Post
    n US doesn't trust india enuff to sell theirs
    Not true.
    -Lockheed Martin is moving the F-16 production line to India
    -The US gifted India it's electro-magnetic catapult and naval nuclear reactor technology in 2016.
    -The US would very much like to bring India into the F-35 program.

    The question is, to what degree will India get technology access. At some point though, it will probably be full, just like everybody else. The F-35 is designed to replace the F-16 after all. It's supposed to be the workhorse fighter of the Western world and friends. It's stunningly advanced compared to other aircraft, but the F-22 successor, the B-21 and other later platforms will all be more advanced than it.

    The F-16, for example, was at one time considered "too advanced to sell", until Reagan orderd a reverse course on that. Because of that Boeing came up with the F-20 Tigershark, a highly advanced variant of the F-5, that's been called "the best fighter that nobody ever bought". It offered the F-20, until the F-16 went up for sale 2 years later.

    Eventually the F-35 will be the lower end aircraft that the US has.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ser Arthur Dayne View Post
    so india isn't walking out of rus project.
    I don't know what to tell you at this point. Indian is plainly done with it's partnership with Russia on this. You're just in utter denial about this humiliation. Again, your beliefs are not reality.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ser Arthur Dayne View Post
    This is them accepting Russia moving ahead with their own priority n trying to look important to their own bollywood drama consuming citizens.
    Nevermind this is a baseless, bizarre and racist slam on India and Indian culture, it also isn't true whatsoever. India is pulling out, because the Su-57 is a failure, end of story.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ser Arthur Dayne View Post
    What is india going to do? Make their own program? aaahaahaahaaa
    Buy the F-35. Buy the Eurofighter Typhoon. Co-finance a program with Japan. It has options.

  15. #15
    Deleted
    I think all that Stealth fancy pancy research is a waste of money.

    The F-35 program now costed 400B Dollar.

    For that price you could have bought: 4444 EuroFighter Typhoons instead.
    (That have active counter measures for incoming missiles)

    I am not a military expert, but if you look at wars in History, quantity over quality often wins.
    Just think of the puny Sherman Tank VS the Tiger Tank.
    Tiger being vastly Superior, but for each Sherman disabled 5 others showed up.

    Just making up numbers here, but to give you an idea:
    You have a fleet of 100x F35's, not many for your enemy to disable when they are grounded.
    Compared to having a fleet of 2000x slightly inferior planes spread around all over.

    On a final note, you don't need a 120m Dollar plane to bomb a tent.
    Lots of the wars fought now can be done with a retrofitted singe turbo prop engine plane.
    And I believe some armies were even conciddering that: Embraer EMB 314 Super Tucano

    EDIT:
    And if you really want to take down a hard target, just develop a stealth cruise missile, much easier as it is small already.

  16. #16
    I don't wanna be a dick and understand the desire for domestic aviation industries (the ability to build jets, airliners etc seems to be the benchmark for a fully modern industrialized nation, a benchmark that even China with its massive manufacturing base and near endless investment hasn't hit yet, tho small Western nations like Canada and even Sweden are capable of manufacturing jets and airliners and the engines that seem to be the key element), but if you still aren't capable to domestically manufacture 4th generation jets or more specifically the engines for them, why are you trying to leapfrog and imitate (poorly) the 5th generation jets that basically only really one country pulled off reliably so far?

    And even there it required decades of incremental development, the entire tech base of the western world to draw upon for components and manufacturing systems and near endless amount of money poured into that one program over the years.

    If you are India and China and you want to leapfrog what you should be aiming for is the ability to build 4.5 gen jets. Like something that could compare and maybe match or outmatch things like the Saab Gripen or the Typhoon. Once you have that figured out you might have the tech base to actually build the engines for the more advanced generations.
    Quote Originally Posted by Orlong View Post
    It doesnt destroy the land to bury styrofoam 25 feet below the ground
    Today Obama once again kneeled at the altar of environmental naziism and hurt this once great country. He has now banned all drilling in the Atlantic Ocean

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Hunterwep View Post
    I think all that Stealth fancy pancy research is a waste of money.

    The F-35 program now costed 400B Dollar.

    For that price you could have bought: 4444 EuroFighter Typhoons instead.
    (That have active counter measures for incoming missiles)

    I am not a military expert, but if you look at wars in History, quantity over quality often wins.
    Just think of the puny Sherman Tank VS the Tiger Tank.
    Tiger being vastly Superior, but for each Sherman disabled 5 others showed up.

    Just making up numbers here, but to give you an idea:
    You have a fleet of 100x F35's, not many for your enemy to disable when they are grounded.
    Compared to having a fleet of 2000x slightly inferior planes spread around all over.

    On a final note, you don't need a 120m Dollar plane to bomb a tent.
    Lots of the wars fought now can be done with a retrofitted singe turbo prop engine plane.
    And I believe some armies were even conciddering that: Embraer EMB 314 Super Tucano

    EDIT:
    And if you really want to take down a hard target, just develop a stealth cruise missile, much easier as it is small already.
    Nice contradiction.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Hunterwep View Post
    I think all that Stealth fancy pancy research is a waste of money.

    The F-35 program now costed 400B Dollar.

    For that price you could have bought: 4444 EuroFighter Typhoons instead.
    (That have active counter measures for incoming missiles)

    I am not a military expert, but if you look at wars in History, quantity over quality often wins.
    Just think of the puny Sherman Tank VS the Tiger Tank.
    Tiger being vastly Superior, but for each Sherman disabled 5 others showed up.

    Just making up numbers here, but to give you an idea:
    You have a fleet of 100x F35's, not many for your enemy to disable when they are grounded.
    Compared to having a fleet of 2000x slightly inferior planes spread around all over.

    On a final note, you don't need a 120m Dollar plane to bomb a tent.
    Lots of the wars fought now can be done with a retrofitted singe turbo prop engine plane.
    And I believe some armies were even conciddering that: Embraer EMB 314 Super Tucano

    EDIT:
    And if you really want to take down a hard target, just develop a stealth cruise missile, much easier as it is small already.
    There's much to criticize about how the F35 program was handled and how much it cost, but the technology itself is necessary. The Typhoon and similar 4.5gen jets are great, but there's a moment where the technology just becomes outdated. Variations of the 4th gen even if upgraded are coming to the end of their viable service life as anti-air missiles and such progressively become better and cheaper and accessible even to third rate powers.

    Things like the Tucano have their place as close air support weapons, but those things require complete air superiority to operate. That air superiority is first won and enforced by more advanced jets.
    Quote Originally Posted by Orlong View Post
    It doesnt destroy the land to bury styrofoam 25 feet below the ground
    Today Obama once again kneeled at the altar of environmental naziism and hurt this once great country. He has now banned all drilling in the Atlantic Ocean

  19. #19
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel View Post
    Nice contradiction.
    Stealth is just lowering the radar cross section, a cruise missile has a small one by default.
    On top of that cruise missiles fly close to the ground avoiding most radar to begin with.
    So by defenition a cruise missile is "stealth" already, just improve on it a bit.

    My point was it would be a lot cheaper to develop such without sacrificing any of it's capabilities.

  20. #20
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Skroe View Post
    ...

    Oh, Princess Peach is back.

    To me it seems you are haunting Russia like Maiev did with Illidan. Let's say your wet dream comes true and russia is no longer a military threat, where will your overabundant aggression go? Who will be your next Nemesis that you can direct all your hate towards?

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