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  1. #301
    Quote Originally Posted by Alanar View Post
    Yea that was horrible, BoW right now is like the highest hitting thing which feels weird, the proc could easily go baseline or maybe altered since every one and their mothers will use this ( so no real choice there atm)
    Try some with warmode on, it's super fast xp and allows you to use the 30% speed buff outdoors on freedom or hammer of recknoning, whic does 30k+ damage, which is very strong right now.

    Yea, there is no real way to test pvp atm, wargames are bugged and no one seems to be doing randoms, i am in the pvp q for islands atm to see if any one is doing those.
    Oh i do, my build consists of Hammer of Reckoning (Amazing talent) and Freedom speed boost.

    Yeah BGs dont seem to pop anymore, an Arena skirmishes the only thing i've been able to do. I do want to test island expeditions tho so thats next on my list.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Alanar View Post
    Well it's always different when playing it yourself to my exp realy, this is no different.
    But honestly why would you care? you don't sound like a guy who wants to know anything but your own opinion am I right?

    - - - Updated - - -



    Mobility for what? Warmode, arenas, raids? it's extremely vague and what your hinting at? Ive had no issues with mobility so far so how can you?
    This is not debating my friend, your just being naiev and it realy feels like a waste of time, you just made a second post just to dismiss my experience in the beta?
    No point arguing with Storm, he said he hates Ret and despite not having beta access he seems to know how well Ret is doing better than us who actually have beta. Go figure...

    Waste of time.

  2. #302
    Quote Originally Posted by Ilivath View Post
    Judgment is still a 12s base CD.
    My mistake -you're right. However, the CS cooldown going from 4.5s (talentable to 3.5s) to 6s (talentable to 5s) means losing 3-1/3rd GCDs of actions per minute (assuming no Haste) baseline, and over five with FoJ (in both cases). As FoJ was at times the top talent in that row in Legion, and looks unlikely to be in BfA, we could be looking at a 7+ actions per minute loss (again, with no Haste). Also, as you can take either FoJ or BoW, when in Legion we often ran with both, that's another few actions we lose. Thus we have all these open GCDs and most of the time we will have nothing to do in them.

    When I get on an Arms Warrior in beta, I can always Slam/Whirlwind unless I've run myself dry of Rage, and if I'm not hitting a button for a moment or two it's because I choose to in order to conserve and build rage. What's more, it's seldom an actual issue, in my experience. With Retribution I don't hit buttons not because I've made a mistake, or to pool resources for a later time, but because I've done everything right, and run out of abilities off cooldown. Saving rage so I always have something available should I need to suddenly target swap doesn't cost me DPS on a Warrior (or a Rogue or a Druid, or a Monk, or a Hunter), but holding an ability when I could hit it just so it's available for a new target costs DPS with a Ret (and a Enhance, for that matter). We should have nearly full GCDs, for this reason, and because then if DP or BoW procs, we have to make a choice that will actually mean something. With lots of open GCDs the DPS loss for hitting the wrong button when BoW procs is really minimal.

  3. #303
    Quote Originally Posted by Alanar View Post
    Well it's always different when playing it yourself to my exp realy, this is no different.
    But honestly why would you care? you don't sound like a guy who wants to know anything but your own opinion am I right?

    - - - Updated - - -



    Mobility for what? Warmode, arenas, raids? it's extremely vague and what your hinting at? Ive had no issues with mobility so far so how can you?
    This is not debating my friend, your just being naiev and it realy feels like a waste of time, you just made a second post just to dismiss my experience in the beta?
    So because if your experience I am not allowed to have an opinion? That’s not how it works.
    Why would I care? Why would I not? I am somewhat related to retribution specialization.
    No, you are wrong. I am listening what others say. I am not dictating what others can say. I am okay with opinion that differs with mine. Unlike you.

    Mobility in general. It’s so fething shite I can not overemphasize how shite it is. Saying ret has no mobility issues is like saying a wheelchair-bound has no issues walking with his own legs.
    No, I am not dismissing your experience. I am questioning your ability to argue.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bane-Thunder-God View Post
    No point arguing with Storm, he said he hates Ret and despite not having beta access he seems to know how well Ret is doing better than us who actually have beta. Go figure...

    Waste of time.
    I am still delighting in the irony, baneyboy.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kaito92 View Post
    You are even dumber than i thought, you even dont know how haste works
    You are even dumber than I thought, you even don’t know what is stat cap.
    Having said that, I cannot help but applaud your impeccable approach to leading a discussion.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Speaking of rage saving, there is always a leap+double charge combo inbetween autoattacks.

  4. #304
    Is derpsteed still affected by slows and roots?

  5. #305
    Elemental Lord
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    Quote Originally Posted by Storm Against Many View Post
    So because if your experience I am not allowed to have an opinion? That’s not how it works.
    Why would I care? Why would I not? I am somewhat related to retribution specialization.
    No, you are wrong. I am listening what others say. I am not dictating what others can say. I am okay with opinion that differs with mine. Unlike you.
    ok lol.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bane-Thunder-God View Post
    - - - Updated - - -

    No point arguing with Storm, he said he hates Ret and despite not having beta access he seems to know how well Ret is doing better than us who actually have beta. Go figure...

    Waste of time.
    Yea I figured, hes a observer and a bad 1 to.

    - - - Updated - - -
    Last edited by Alanar; 2018-05-27 at 08:37 AM.

  6. #306
    Quote Originally Posted by Fargus View Post
    Is derpsteed still affected by slows and roots?
    Of course!
    Otherwise it would be unbalanced and too powerful
    In order to increase balanceness, cooldown on the Steed is increased from 45 seconds to 60.

    Now you can clearly see ret has no issues with mobility !
    Don’t listen to complaining complainers , nor do listen to people without beta access- they be bad observers

  7. #307
    Deleted
    The day will come when :
    Rets will be in teams fighting for the arena finals
    Rets will be in teams fighting in the MDI finals
    Rets will be in teams fighting in the WF raid.

    However this day will not be in BFA

  8. #308
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Stroggylos View Post
    The day will come when :
    Rets will be in teams fighting for the arena finals
    Rets will be in teams fighting in the MDI finals
    Rets will be in teams fighting in the WF raid.

    However this day will not be in BFA
    And even if all of that happens at the same time Storm will still be here on the forums whining about how bad Ret is while playing his warrior

  9. #309
    Quote Originally Posted by maaghen View Post
    And even if all of that happens at the same time Storm will still be here on the forums whining about how bad Ret is while playing his warrior
    If.


    Whatever happened with being laconic.

  10. #310
    Quote Originally Posted by Stroggylos View Post
    The day will come when :
    Rets will be in teams fighting for the arena finals
    Rets will be in teams fighting in the MDI finals
    Rets will be in teams fighting in the WF raid.

    However this day will not be in BFA

    We stand already in WF raid like :

    Argus : Method / Exorcus

    Kil jaeden : n/a

    Guldan : Exorcus / Method

    Helya : Method

    Xavius : N/a

    it's not perfect but don't forget you talking about guild how player have many class for switch in any encounter.

    Think about feral and shaman ench / elemental ...

    BTW legion it's the first expansion (except HFC in wod ) you can see a lot of retpal in many guilds kill the final boss and doing the entirely progress.
    I hope the same for BFA, it's a good feeling to playing a class not weakless anymore.

  11. #311
    I'm enjoying Ret on Beta. On the rare occasions I switch off warmode (i.e. when huge raids are rolling over the map killing everyone and everything flagged), I really miss Hammer of Reckoning - I wish that PvP talent would replace Crusade as a level 100 PvE talent...

  12. #312
    Deleted
    Hello, after having read the whole post and others on reddit, on Battle.net, youtube and played on beta, here is my opinion (you can disagree with me ofc but please be respectul ) :

    bad points :
    1) Mobility : Divine Steed and Blessing of Freedom being nerfed (by getting longer CD) and nothing new for improving this point. Getting 2 charges of Divine Steed is really a cheap solution(and only talented), especially when you can still be slowed, rooted, stunned, etc. DK at least got Death Advance with 30 sec CD if i remember it well and can talent Wraith walk (while I'm not sure if WW would be first choice). This point is extremely annoying for arena or MM+. Long arm of the law would be nice to be brought back. DK can also close the gap with their grip in pvp.

    2) Cleave : I don't like the idea of when facing against 2 opponents, TV will do more damage than Divine Storm. In this case, well... Where is the cleave ? Consecration feels a bit lacking. In Legion, we had zeal, judgement being able to hit 2 targets (or more with talent), Divine Hammer and Divine storm > TV.

    3) Downtime : I hate this. Hopefully getting a decent gear will make this disappear !! (Although it seems intended and downtime will get shorter instead of disappearing)

    4) Hammer of wrath : useless versus BOW... Maybe in very specific situations it can be talented but not convinced.

    5) passive from Ashbringer being completely removed : like CD reduction for BOP, Healing Storm or Unbreakable Will. If there are some of those passives that are actually being kept on BFA, please tell me !!

    6) GCD on Shield of Vengeance and AW/Crusade : It feels slow but well... Other classes also have this drawback. Not really acceptable but at least less painful to know that other classes also have this issue xD

    7) Zeal : I have no issue about how it works. I like the fact that it can help for BOW proc. However, seems like Blizzard mentioned that it was not intended so I'm worried this won't last...

    8) Wake of Ashes :
    too long CD and no more dots :'(


    Mobility, Downtime (maybe gear-related ?) and Cleave are by far the worst for ret paladin and really needs a better tuning.


    Neutral points :

    1) Consecration : I don't like it much because if a tank moves when you had casted Consecration, it becomes useless. I know, people will say "l2p issue, wait till tank doesn't move anymore blabla". That's why it's on neutral point I actually believe that having Consecration as baseline could be nice, while the talent would be something like "Consecration generates now 2 HP" and if you choose WOA, it will replace Consecration (with a shorter CD than 45 sec and getting its short dot back!!).

    2) Inquisition :
    I'm not a big fan either. DP or Crusade is far funnier. You guys could just say "then don't play it" but I'm also looking from an optimal point of view !

    3) Divine Tempest :
    bring it back :'(

    4) Utilities : Add some more utilities as some classes got far better utilities (blessing of sacrifice for instance but I'd like something more for a whole group/raid than just a single target). For this point, i may be asking too much.

    Good points :
    1) Feeling : it "feels" strong on ST. I mean somehow when I hit with TV (with the new sound), it feels like I'm hitting really hard and it's rather satisfying. (I'm not talking about numbers)

    2) No more Judgement window : yaaay !

    3) SH (more like a reply to Storm Against Many): SH is kinda nice. 36 sec to build it is not a great issue imo. Getting an instant and improved heal in a shorter time could be too strong. So better to keep at it instead of a shorter time and then getting a nerf... Moreover, not sure if it's a viable talent but in PVP, there is Seraphim's blessing which also can instant heal. Getting 2 instant heals could be nice. And by the way, wouldnt the judgement cd get shorter with higher haste ?
    Last edited by mmocccdc3efc22; 2018-05-29 at 12:11 AM.

  13. #313
    Quote Originally Posted by Datman View Post
    3) SH (more like a reply to Storm Against Many): SH is kinda nice. 36 sec to build it is not a great issue imo. Getting an instant and improved heal in a shorter time could be too strong. So better to keep at it instead of a shorter time and then getting a nerf... Moreover, not sure if it's a viable talent but in PVP, there is Seraphim's blessing which also can instant heal. Getting 2 instant heals could be nice. And by the way, wouldnt the judgement cd get shorter with higher haste ?
    36s is a long time to wait for s single instant Flash of Light. Note that the buff is only 30% and only when cast on others. IF you want to heal others, you'd be better off with WoG - it's always instant, and vastly stronger (just don't expect it to save your own sorry arse).

    As for feeling strong - I rolled a Ret on Beta, and went out and started bashing stuff. It takes about 7-9 GCDs to kill equal level stuff when in the starting gear. That's about 9-11s - better than the Elemental rolled managed, but still pretty slow.

    Now, as a comparison I logged into a L100 Ret that I have who doesn't have Ashbringer, etc., at all. He's in i700 gear from the pre-patch event before Legion. That's probably comparatively a bit better than the crud they give pre-gens on the beta, but it's not endgame raid gear, full tier sets plus legendaries, etc. either. He kills random L100 mobs in 5-6 GCDs, which is about 6-7.5s with his Haste. Unlike the beta Ret he has no trouble with 4+ mobs either - the beta Ret needs to use SoV and heal inside the fight, the L100 Legion Ret does not (and his SoV has the same relative strength as the beta version - SoV started strong in Legion and scaled poorly, something that BfA has probably fixed). Oh - he has, despite not having the weapon, much fewer gaps in his rotation too. The beta Ret often has to wait between pulls for enough abilities to come off CD to let them start a pull with more than an auto-attack.

    All in all, weaponless Legion Ret moves faster, is at least as tough (BfA seems to have nerfed plate some more), and can pull more freely than beta Ret. Oh, and has cleave too.

    BfA has done some things right, but it needs some tuning, and not just damage tuning. Even using BoW and DP one can kill a few mobs, then end up finishing one with no Holy Power, and everything is on CD for so long that you can loot and move on to the next mob and still be waiting to have things to press. That is awful. It was awful in Vanilla and BC, and it's worse now because back then most of our damage was from auto-attacks - now it's from active abilities, so to not have them available means doing next to no damage (i.e. you're better off not pulling because the mob will have more DPS than you until your CDs are done).

  14. #314
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Datman View Post
    Blessing of Freedom being nerfed (by getting longer CD)
    They actually reverted the CD of Freedom back to 25 sec. Still, yes our mobility is still nerfed... And thats sucks.

    2) Cleave : I don't like the idea of when facing against 2 opponents, TV will do more damage than Divine Storm. In this case, well... Where is the cleave ? Consecration feels a bit lacking. In Legion, we had zeal, judgement being able to hit 2 targets (or more with talent), Divine Hammer and Divine storm > TV.
    Don't like it too... But it's actually what blizzard wants. And, if you pick the talent Divine Judgment, it seems to be worth it to Divine storm on 2 target. But I don't know if it's worth it over the other talents.

    3) Downtime : I hate this. Hopefully getting a decent gear will make this disappear !! (Although it seems intended and downtime will get shorter instead of disappearing)
    Downtime will not disappear. Skeletor and Thete tried to explain it : Because our GCD is reduced by haste, having more haste will just make downtime shorter, but more frequent resulting in the same amount of downtime overall.

    Haste is still making the gameplay feeling better though and makes talents like Execution sentance better because in this small window of time we will have less downtime. But overall, it's the same.

    The only possibility to really reduce downtime with haste is by getting more than 100% of it (because now, GCD can be reduced to 0.75 sec, and it happens at 100% haste but cannot be shorter than that, but your abilities CD is still reduced)

    4) Hammer of wrath : useless versus BOW... Maybe in very specific situations it can be talented but not convinced.
    On this one, you are wrong.

    Latest sims I have seen (before the small change to HoW though), those two talents where really close to each other damage wise (with HoW being slightly better) and it seems that it also give a bit less downtime than BoW overall.

    But still, the talent have been change a bit (damage increased but CD increased too) so it may have change.

    4) Utilities : Add some more utilities as some classes got far better utilities (blessing of sacrifice for instance but I'd like something more for a whole group/raid than just a single target). For this point, i may be asking too much.
    The main problem here is that our utility kit is really situational and don't see uses on much fights. And on those few fights, Prot pally and Holy have it too (+ sac)... And because it's unlikely to see a lot of raids without a Holy pal and because Prot seems to be quite good on beta now, there will be even less need for our utility.

    I really hope Blizzard do something to Greater blessing of king because it's really useless and the only reason we use it now is for the strength.

    As for feeling strong - I rolled a Ret on Beta, and went out and started bashing stuff. It takes about 7-9 GCDs to kill equal level stuff when in the starting gear. That's about 9-11s - better than the Elemental rolled managed, but still pretty slow.

    Now, as a comparison I logged into a L100 Ret that I have who doesn't have Ashbringer, etc., at all. He's in i700 gear from the pre-patch event before Legion. That's probably comparatively a bit better than the crud they give pre-gens on the beta, but it's not endgame raid gear, full tier sets plus legendaries, etc. either. He kills random L100 mobs in 5-6 GCDs, which is about 6-7.5s with his Haste. Unlike the beta Ret he has no trouble with 4+ mobs either - the beta Ret needs to use SoV and heal inside the fight, the L100 Legion Ret does not (and his SoV has the same relative strength as the beta version - SoV started strong in Legion and scaled poorly, something that BfA has probably fixed). Oh - he has, despite not having the weapon, much fewer gaps in his rotation too. The beta Ret often has to wait between pulls for enough abilities to come off CD to let them start a pull with more than an auto-attack.
    You shouldn't think like that. We can't compare the killtime on mobs during 2 different xpac. Scaling on mob isn't the same.

    I don't have that much time to play on beta and just got my ret to 113 but I didn't had that much problems with taking multiple mobs. Sure I had to heal myself sometimes, but it wasn't really a problem.

    BfA has done some things right, but it needs some tuning, and not just damage tuning. Even using BoW and DP one can kill a few mobs, then end up finishing one with no Holy Power, and everything is on CD for so long that you can loot and move on to the next mob and still be waiting to have things to press. That is awful. It was awful in Vanilla and BC, and it's worse now because back then most of our damage was from auto-attacks - now it's from active abilities, so to not have them available means doing next to no damage (i.e. you're better off not pulling because the mob will have more DPS than you until your CDs are done).
    Where I really agree with you is that having such downtime on a class like Paladin feels terrible. Having some downtime on an Energy base class that needs to pull ressources in order to use their abilities (and most of them doesn't have any CD) is ok (I'm still not a fan, but it's ok). But when you only rely on CD to use your abilities, even if waiting is still waiting, it doesn't feels right that way.

    I don't know why Blizzard decided to make paladin a slow paced class, but to me it's a terribly bad idea. We are not feral druids that needs to keep 2 (3 with a talent) DoTs and 1 buff on us (via talent) and that can have benefit on having a slower gameplay to keep up with that and have a bit of time to plan properly what they are doing to not lose any of those DoTs / buff.

    Ret actually doesn't have any baseline DoT / buff to keep and the only buff we have is a talent on a 45sec duration so it's really easy to keep. We doesn't have any procs baseline too so difficulty on playing ret isn't on maintaining anything on us or the mob but rely on us using our abilities in the right priority order. And slowing down the gameplay is completly negating this aspect and removes all difficulty on playing the spec.

    I know it's ok to have a few easy spec for new players, but ret already have simple mechanics that are easy to understand and easy to use. Making it even more easier is not beneficial for the game IMO.

  15. #315
    Quote Originally Posted by Datman View Post
    6) GCD on Shield of Vengeance and AW/Crusade : It feels slow but well... Other classes also have this drawback. Not really acceptable but at least less painful to know that other classes also have this issue xD
    Having seen this on beta i can say this is just absurd if not stupid. SoV on the gcd leaves the ret paladin with no immediatley available defensive cooldown, atleast against magical damage (don't know right now if bop is still off the gcd). AW beeing on the gcd means 3 seconds (let's say 2-2.5 with haste) of just standing around doing nothing but waiting for the gcd to finish, hitting AW, waiting for the next gcd to finish to finally be able to cast a TV, etc.

    In my opinion this is terrible design and contributes nothing to fixing the overall health of the game. I wish they'd just revert this already

  16. #316
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Kalisandra View Post
    36s is a long time to wait for s single instant Flash of Light. Note that the buff is only 30% and only when cast on others. IF you want to heal others, you'd be better off with WoG - it's always instant, and vastly stronger (just don't expect it to save your own sorry arse).
    Indeed, WoG has better output and also has 2 charges. However, it costs 3 HP while SH costs nothing. Overall I'd say WoG > SH. As for SH, if you have 2 stacks, it's already quite fast, Not sure you could get counterspelled except if PVP opponent has god-like reaction ? Especially with higher haste ?


    Quote Originally Posted by Vratz View Post
    They actually reverted the CD of Freedom back to 25 sec. Still, yes our mobility is still nerfed... And thats sucks.
    Not enough but good news ^^ I take anything that can improve our mobility haha



    Quote Originally Posted by Vratz View Post
    Downtime will not disappear. Skeletor and Thete tried to explain it : Because our GCD is reduced by haste, having more haste will just make downtime shorter, but more frequent resulting in the same amount of downtime overall.
    Yeah, it was from Thete that I mentioned this point.


    Quote Originally Posted by Vratz View Post
    Latest sims I have seen (before the small change to HoW though), those two talents where really close to each other damage wise (with HoW being slightly better) and it seems that it also give a bit less downtime than BoW overall.
    Really ? Do you have a link for those logs ? that'd be interesting. I'm surprised though as I believed BOW should make HP generation smoother than HOW (due to its restriction from AW/Crusade and 20% health points).


    Quote Originally Posted by Vratz View Post
    I really hope Blizzard do something to Greater blessing of king because it's really useless and the only reason we use it now is for the strength.
    I totally agree. Forgot to mention this !!

    Quote Originally Posted by General Guderian View Post
    Having seen this on beta i can say this is just absurd if not stupid. SoV on the gcd leaves the ret paladin with no immediatley available defensive cooldown, atleast against magical damage (don't know right now if bop is still off the gcd). AW beeing on the gcd means 3 seconds (let's say 2-2.5 with haste) of just standing around doing nothing but waiting for the gcd to finish, hitting AW, waiting for the next gcd to finish to finally be able to cast a TV, etc.
    Exactly, but isn't this the case for other classes as well ?

  17. #317
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Datman View Post
    Really ? Do you have a link for those logs ? that'd be interesting. I'm surprised though as I believed BOW should make HP generation smoother than HOW (due to its restriction from AW/Crusade and 20% health points).
    Quote Originally Posted by Ilivath View Post
    Here is an example of a 5 Minute fight.

    HoW


    BoW
    Here is the sims that Ilivath (Skeletor, he is one of our theorycrafter if i'm not mistaken) gave us on another thread (for uptime with BoW and HoW).

    And here are the sims that Solsacra (Theorycrafter aswell) gave us on the ret paladin discord.

    https://dl.dropbox.com/s/gxjj3i4hxz9...muts.html?dl=0

    Those are quite old, so take numbers with a grain of salt, because as I have said, HoW have been changed a bit (longer cooldown and more damage).

    To view a stack rank of active time, select the "Table of Contents" Tab, and then "Simulation Information". Scroll down until you find "Raid Downtime"

  18. #318
    Mine are a bit older. But Solsacra's are up to date.

  19. #319
    Quote Originally Posted by Alanar View Post
    Yea that was horrible, BoW right now is like the highest hitting thing which feels weird, the proc could easily go baseline or maybe altered since every one and their mothers will use this ( so no real choice there atm)
    They changed it to RPPM

    - - - Updated - - -

    When will people stop using our blessings as defense for mobility and defensives? Why are they even self-castable? They should only be used on other players (ya know, utility and shtuff) and should never, ever factor into our own toolkit as far as defensives and mobility go. Full stop.

  20. #320
    Quote Originally Posted by Felfuhrer View Post
    They changed it to RPPM

    - - - Updated - - -

    When will people stop using our blessings as defense for mobility and defensives? Why are they even self-castable? They should only be used on other players (ya know, utility and shtuff) and should never, ever factor into our own toolkit as far as defensives and mobility go. Full stop.
    BoW is already RPPM in Legion. 4 RPPM in Legion and 3.5 RPPM in BfA.

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