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  1. #201
    Quote Originally Posted by BlueRemedy View Post
    Why the fuck would anyone willingly play Arms? Arms is what you play when Blizzard fucks up Fury and you have no choice, you dont roll a warrior for it.
    Hello.
    T20 arms was a thoroughly satisfying spec, and still is. You should definitely watch what arms was capable of on mythic kj.
    Noone spins like Gaston.
    Ofc what I would know with just 5/11 mythic experience.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Seeing as some antisocial doom and glood elements are trying to overthrow our wisdom, I think it's nigh time weappreciate our mobility once again:
    https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/...187274#post-14

  2. #202
    Quote Originally Posted by BlueRemedy View Post
    Why the fuck would anyone willingly play Arms? Arms is what you play when Blizzard fucks up Fury and you have no choice, you dont roll a warrior for it.
    That's a really interesting perspective. Really, it is. I don't know where you got it from, but it's definitely interesting.

  3. #203
    Quote Originally Posted by Tiaron View Post
    "You can pick whatever talent you like."
    Of course you can, because the word "synergy" is something the ret talent tree(ret spec in general) does not know. xD
    synergy is bad from a balancing point of view: if you have a certain talent synergy, it is massively outperforming the other choices, so they have to nerf individual talents, which in turn makes them unattractive for anything outside the synergistic build.

    the goal should be that every row of talents is to be viewed seperately and the decision about which to choose is one of personal taste ( of course since balancing will not be perfect there will be the optimal choice, but without synergy between rows they should overall be closer from a performance standpoint)

  4. #204
    Quote Originally Posted by Rhaxus View Post
    synergy is bad from a balancing point of view: if you have a certain talent synergy, it is massively outperforming the other choices, so they have to nerf individual talents, which in turn makes them unattractive for anything outside the synergistic build.

    the goal should be that every row of talents is to be viewed seperately and the decision about which to choose is one of personal taste ( of course since balancing will not be perfect there will be the optimal choice, but without synergy between rows they should overall be closer from a performance standpoint)
    Orly?
    Check out synergy between eye beam talent, demonic appetite, demonic, raddon legendary and t21 for dh.
    Then check if it is nerfed .
    Then check where does havoc stand according to simc

  5. #205
    Could be possible to play as a support role using Word of Glory on cd/as needed and spending the rest of holy power into damage habilities? I have only tried a 110 Ret Paladin in the Beta but Word of Glory crits are healing for 14k having a total health pool of 20k thats quite a huge healing power.

    I mean you won't be top healer or top dps, but do you think that you could do a good job this way in both aspects?

  6. #206
    Quote Originally Posted by Tiaron View Post
    What exactly should that be good for?
    Bosses where you don't need another full time healer so you can just win dps including a retri paladin played this support way. I'am only speaking about raids, not mythic+ or PvP.

    Always talking at level 110, because I have not leveled the toon any further, you have about 20k hp
    - Flash of Light that heals for 3k - 6k crits (50% more than a pure healer spell of that category that rounds 2k)
    - Word of glory that smart heals for 7k - 14k crits, (thats about 75% of a health pool), to 3 targets with a 1 min cd and 2 charges, instant.

    So taking into account that mana is not an issue (Because if you are oom, you can still deal full damage rotation) and that we have some downtimes waiting for Holy power generators to come off CD, you can cast FoL away and the mana regenerates quite quickly while you do your DPS rotation.

  7. #207
    Quote Originally Posted by Legebril View Post
    Could be possible to play as a support role using Word of Glory on cd/as needed and spending the rest of holy power into damage habilities? I have only tried a 110 Ret Paladin in the Beta but Word of Glory crits are healing for 14k having a total health pool of 20k thats quite a huge healing power.

    I mean you won't be top healer or top dps, but do you think that you could do a good job this way in both aspects?
    If they leave the numbers on WoG as they are now then maybe, but I doubt it stays that way by the end of beta. After tuning is done, I don't see WoG being as good.

  8. #208
    Quote Originally Posted by Cyranis View Post
    On beta right now, you can have 2 divine steed, and 30% speed boost on blessing of freedom + a 15s cooldown reduction to hand of hindrance as well as a 3 second slow on blade of justice. Ret pvp mobility isn't all that bad, especially since most classes lost their blinks ect.
    You will never talent cavalier in pvp. With the current state of it its almost useless on a 1min cd(3 seconds doesnt do anything,esp when you will be slowed/rooted).
    As for those pvp talents,you will never take 30% speed boost on freedom. And law and order doesnt reduce the cd on hand of hindrance by 15 sec. it reduces the cd if its dispeled. And even if it is dispeled 15sec remaining cd is still too long,a slow should either have no cd or a very small one(5secs). The slow it applies is good,but its only for 3 seconds,which is really lackluster with what the cd is on blade of justice on bfa.
    With the changes to dk(death's advance),ret mobility is by far the worst.


    I recommend:
    -Divine Steed - goes to a 30-45sec cd(depending on other changes), duration increased to 5seconds(so you actually move somewhere during it,not a wheelchair spin), and when mounted(either remove slows/roots or cant be slowed under certain % movspeed).
    -Hand of hindrance - 12-15sec cd,when dispelled reduced cd by 10sec(its magic so it always gets dispelled).Perhaps reduce the slow % to 50-60%(depends).
    -Emancipate - bring it back. For people who dont know what it did, it removed one movement impairing effect(no cd,on the gcd). Very important imo.
    -Hammer of Justice - its magic,so it gets dispeled if used on anything but the healer most of the time. Bigger problem is that its only 10 yrds without honor talent.And with the honor talents changed to only 3,you really dont wanna waste your honor talent spot for something so minor. 10yrds is incredibly low + our great mobility = frustration. Default range changed to 20yrds(its magic for god sakes).
    -Fist of Justice (talent) - the rng factor isnt good for multiple reasons. 1) you cant plan your cc chain properly cause of procs,etc
    2) if you get heavily kited,you dont even get the cd reduc,cause you're not hitting the enemy(so you fall even further behind).
    Change it to flat 25-30sec cd.
    Last edited by Cofic; 2018-05-20 at 03:30 PM.

  9. #209
    Quote Originally Posted by Storm Against Many View Post
    Orly?
    Check out synergy between eye beam talent, demonic appetite, demonic, raddon legendary and t21 for dh.
    Then check if it is nerfed .
    Then check where does havoc stand according to simc
    so you'd rather have that be the standard for every class? 1 synergistic talent-setup, so you can ignore all the rest of the talents for every single spec, instead of aiming for the least possible synergies in a talent-tree and have talents be valuable for themselves?

    as you implied, the situation was garbage for dh, so why be stupid enough to ask for the same treatment?

    the DH situation is probably the same thing they did with demonology warlock in mop: they didn't want people to play it, so they nerfed it or forced players in other ways to use a different spec, i bet they could have fixed dh if they intended to do so

  10. #210
    Ret just feels to slow, I hope it picks up with more gear.(Pve) I don't know or really care how it functions in pvp, but the gaps are huge in comparison to legion.

  11. #211
    High Overlord Kuriyama's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Novar View Post
    Ret just feels to slow, I hope it picks up with more gear.(Pve) I don't know or really care how it functions in pvp, but the gaps are huge in comparison to legion.
    I can't remember if it was Thete or Skeletor, but it's been heavily implied that Ret will have downtime even with high levels of haste. Actually I think it was Skeletor in the recent video posted, he said we'd be looking at 12-15% downtime even with 40% haste.

    You want to play something fast paced in BfA? Then I highly suggest you re-roll to Monk. Almost zero downtime and they look better in BfA with good artifact traits baked into talents and spells now.

  12. #212
    Quote Originally Posted by Yamato88 View Post
    I can't remember if it was Thete or Skeletor, but it's been heavily implied that Ret will have downtime even with high levels of haste. Actually I think it was Skeletor in the recent video posted, he said we'd be looking at 12-15% downtime even with 40% haste.
    That's because while Haste cuts most cooldowns down, it also reduces the GCD by the same amount. Thus all Haste does in compress the exact same rotation, gaps and all, into a smaller time period. Thus while the gaps are shorter, they occur more often, for the same overall downtime.

    This does mean that the gaps aren't as long, which should feel a little better, though until you have something like 25-30% Haste this won't change the feel much. From what I've seen of gear and stats in the beta, we won't see that much Haste for some time.

  13. #213
    Ret feels real good on beta to me and even better with some of the azerite armor traits.

    I'm just hoping we don't get nerfed too much cause I know when number tuning comes, Blizz can be too harsh.

    Also gotta wait for the 120 templates to really see what end game could be like.

  14. #214
    Quote Originally Posted by Kalisandra View Post
    That's because while Haste cuts most cooldowns down, it also reduces the GCD by the same amount. Thus all Haste does in compress the exact same rotation, gaps and all, into a smaller time period. Thus while the gaps are shorter, they occur more often, for the same overall downtime.

    This does mean that the gaps aren't as long, which should feel a little better, though until you have something like 25-30% Haste this won't change the feel much. From what I've seen of gear and stats in the beta, we won't see that much Haste for some time.
    they also mentioned how they want to give ret paladins downtime to offer them windows of time to use their utility skills on others. how this is supposed to work is a mystery to me, since we can't choose when those downtimes will appear...

  15. #215
    Quote Originally Posted by Rhaxus View Post
    they also mentioned how they want to give ret paladins downtime to offer them windows of time to use their utility skills on others. how this is supposed to work is a mystery to me, since we can't choose when those downtimes will appear...
    Could you please provide a link where this is stated please? I would really like to read it.

    After all is something similar to what I suggested yerterday, play with a support role casting some FoL here and there while the others skills come off cd.

  16. #216
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaito92 View Post
    so you suggest that ret paladin should be trash tier?
    I suggest that they should allow two ways of playing the retribution paladin customized via Talents/Azerite traits.

    One focused in doing full time DPS that can compete with other classes that only do DPS.

    Another one that while even doing a non trash DPS, can spare some time casting FoL when needed, saving people life with WoD and casting some temporal buffs on your team mates that improves their. You won't be top tier DPS, but will fullfill that lack of dps with utility that enhance the raid performance

  17. #217
    Quote Originally Posted by Legebril View Post
    Could be possible to play as a support role using Word of Glory on cd/as needed and spending the rest of holy power into damage habilities? I have only tried a 110 Ret Paladin in the Beta but Word of Glory crits are healing for 14k having a total health pool of 20k thats quite a huge healing power.

    I mean you won't be top healer or top dps, but do you think that you could do a good job this way in both aspects?
    LOL you can't be serious?

    You're wasting a dps slot if a ret is sacrificing their dps for healing.

  18. #218
    The Unstoppable Force Gaidax's Avatar
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    They could go TBC model where utility is so mandatory that you just have to bring some support in like that whole Replenishment thing or Shadow Embrace, but overall it feels kinda shit for the guy being there just for the buff and shit for the team that does not have that buffbot.

    I think this model where DDs have very occasional, but major convenience utility for that occasion is best, whether it's AoE CC or some way to drop debuffs/hack mechanics a bit like BoP or Bubble do (example Imonar blowing up all the wires on the bridge with Gateway and Bubble combo, while everyone stacked on spirit link with darkness - that's really brilliant example how a bunch of unique utility provided by different classes produced literally beats encounter).

    Overall - DD needs to deal damage first and foremost, then offer some unique utility that has very nice occasional use.

  19. #219
    The problem is that they gave that utility to the tanks and healers. It's not even the DPS' job to interrupt any more in many fights.

  20. #220
    Elemental Lord
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    Currently 330 ilvl 120ret on beta atm, running mythics only and i am almost always top damage, except for demo locks and frostmages .
    I use inquisition, for the haste buff right now I still feel i have holes in the rotation..
    So far so good and the TV animation is wonderfull.
    Pvp wise i feel strong and not op.

    Ps: It feels good that weapons dropp again, ot makes you gaze on the loot a bit more. I jumped off my chair when i got a 340 2 hander epic dropp even when its beta I got excited lol.

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