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  1. #441
    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    Is what is or isn’t ethical determined by its legality????

    I guess slavery was ethical!
    Leave that Strawman alone....he's done nothing to you.

  2. #442
    The Undying Themius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Egomaniac View Post
    Leave that Strawman alone....he's done nothing to you.
    You don't seem to know what we are talking about.

    The ethics of the act itself. You are the one who is strawmanning here since everyone is speaking of the ethics of the actions and only you are speaking of what the lawyer profession specifically considers

    Your own argument derives its authority from legality and a board of professionals and the fact is legality often has little to do with ethics. you can legally do something that is unethical do you care to read the ethic codes? There are precise notes on how legality doesn't mean something is ethical and how it is unethical to use laws to do something that is not ethical.

    You don't understand what we are talking about, you have a very poor grasps of this conversation so instead of claiming people are "strawmanning" how about you try to understand what the fuck the conversation is first?
    Last edited by Themius; 2021-07-01 at 05:02 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodonius View Post
    Black people in america should be happy their ancestors where slaves so they could have a good live.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodonius View Post
    Black women are racist. Im the one trying to make her[my wife] behave like white people and not say it out loud.
    Totally not racist

  3. #443
    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    You don't seem to know what we are talking about.

    The ethics of the act itself. You are the one who is strawmanning here since everyone is speaking of the ethics of the actions and only you are speaking of what the lawyer profession specifically considers

    Your own argument derives its authority from legality and a board of professionals and the fact is legality often has little to do with ethics. you can legally do something that is unethical do you care to read the ethic codes? There are precise mention how legality doesn't mean something is ethical and how it is unethical to use laws to do something that is not ethical.

    You don't understand what we are talking about, you have a very poor grasps of this conversation so instead of claiming people are "strawmanning" how about you try to understand what the fuck the conversation is first?
    There is nothing fucking "unethical" about a fucking lawyer making a legal fucking argument that effects the fucking release of their fucking client. As his fucking Lawyers...they are doing their jobs...which is to provide the best legal defense possible. If they had learned about this agreement and did not make this case...they would be guilty of malpractice.

    If the client were someone you considered to be innocent...you would be praising these lawyers for what you are condemning them for right now. Your hypocrisy is showing.

  4. #444
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    Quote Originally Posted by Egomaniac View Post
    There is nothing fucking "unethical" about a fucking lawyer making a legal fucking argument that effects the fucking release of their fucking client. As his fucking Lawyers...they are doing their jobs...which is to provide the best legal defense possible. If they had learned about this agreement and did not make this case...they would be guilty of malpractice.

    If the client were someone you considered to be innocent...you would be praising these lawyers for what you are condemning them for right now. Your hypocrisy is showing.
    Is it ethical to force the eviction of a Native American tribe after hundreds of years on ancestral land because you want to build an oil pipeline? If it is not ethical any person who helps facilitate the unethical act is behaving unethically.

    LEGALITY DOESN'T MATTER, LAWYER RESPONSIBILITY DOESN'T MATTER What you are telling me are professional codes as they pertain to the profession that does not deal directly with what is and is not ethical as a societal concern What the fuck are you not understanding here?

    "It's my job" isn't an excuse. As I said, Agent A can say "let's dump in this lake because it will save us money it is in the best interest of the company" Is it ethical now because of the relationship?

    Your grasps of the ethics here is fucking horribly lacking. You behave as if ethics are all directly tied to a specific job or profession which is a shit argument because then I can universalise that argument WHICH IS OFTEN HOW YOU DO AN ETHICAL ANALYSIS by taking a rule and then applying it universally.

    If you have all professions behave in ways to zealously do whatever they can for their client without concern for the wider societal issues then dumping chemicals in lakes, enslaving children, murderering competition, doesn't matter. Because according to you facilitating unethical actions of those who expect you to zealously work in their favour is ethical.

    You lost the debate my dude, that's it. Either concede or fucking pivot, but whatever you do... you need to change the way you're attacking this conversation because this ain't it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodonius View Post
    Black people in america should be happy their ancestors where slaves so they could have a good live.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodonius View Post
    Black women are racist. Im the one trying to make her[my wife] behave like white people and not say it out loud.
    Totally not racist

  5. #445
    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    BLAH FUCKING BLAH
    LEGALITY ALWAYS FUCKING MATTERS

    LAWYER REPSONSIBLITY DOES FUCKING MATTER

    These are not "Professional Codes". These are the systems that the entire legal sytem is based around.

    What you are arguing for is that Bill Cosby's lawyers should have sat on evidence....denying him of his FUCKING right to adequate legal defense. That would be FUCKING UNETHICAL and they would get their FUCKING liscenses to FUCKING Practice Law FUCKING revoked.

    BIll Fucking Cosby should fucking die in Prison. I've said that earlier in this thread. I argued against he people that considered him serving almost 3 years as a "win". I Fucking hate the situation that led to him being released....but his FUCKING LAWYERS didn't create that FUCKING SITUATION. I'm not saying you can't be mad about the situation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post

    You lost the debate my dude, that's it. Either concede or fucking pivot, but whatever you do... you need to change the way you're attacking this conversation because this ain't it.
    My argument is about the ethics of a lawyer sitting on evidence that could release his client. You are talking about the morality of defending someone you consider to be guilty.

    But even guilty people deserve the best legal efforts of their defense team.

    If you have all professions behave in ways to zealously do whatever they can for their client without concern for the wider societal issues then dumping chemicals in lakes, enslaving children, murderering competition, doesn't matter. Because according to you facilitating unethical actions of those who expect you to zealously work in their favour is ethical.
    Don't you think the right to a fair trial with adequate legal defense is a "wider societal issue", my dude?

    And like i said...you don't have a problem with their supposed "unethical actions"...if they used the same actions to free an innocent man...you'd be cheering them on.
    Last edited by Egomaniac; 2021-07-01 at 05:27 AM.

  6. #446
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    Quote Originally Posted by Egomaniac View Post
    LEGALITY ALWAYS FUCKING MATTERS

    LAWYER REPSONSIBLITY DOES FUCKING MATTER

    These are not "Professional Codes". These are the systems that the entire legal sytem is based around.

    What you are arguing for is that Bill Cosby's lawyers should have sat on evidence....denying him of his FUCKING right to adequate legal defense. That would be FUCKING UNETHICAL and they would get their FUCKING liscenses to FUCKING Practice Law FUCKING revoked.

    BIll Fucking Cosby should fucking die in Prison. I've said that earlier in this thread. I argued against he people that considered him serving almost 3 years as a "win". I Fucking hate the situation that led to him being released....but his FUCKING LAWYERS didn't create that FUCKING SITUATION. I'm not saying you can't be mad about the situation.

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    My argument is about the ethics of a lawyer sitting on evidence that could release his client. You are talking about the morality of defending someone you consider to be guilty.

    But even guilty people deserve the best legal efforts of their defense team.
    Here's a little snippet that should get the idea across.

    The fact that something is legal doesn’t make it ethical. You might think it’s obvious, but it’s not, as evidenced by the fact that a former student recently told me that his Finance professor explicitly told him that if something is legal, it’s ethical…full stop. Of course, the student — my student — knew better, and related the story to me while rolling his eyes.

    So let’s make the case explicitly, and explain why legality doesn’t determine ethics.

    First, we can proceed by enumerating a few counter-examples:

    Most kinds of lying are perfectly legal, but lying is generally recognized as being unethical;
    Breaking promises is generally legal, but is widely thought of as unethical;
    Cheating on your husband or wife or boyfriend or girlfriend is legal, but unethical, though the rule against it is perhaps more honoured in the breach;
    …and so on.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodonius View Post
    Black people in america should be happy their ancestors where slaves so they could have a good live.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodonius View Post
    Black women are racist. Im the one trying to make her[my wife] behave like white people and not say it out loud.
    Totally not racist

  7. #447
    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    Here's a little snippet that should get the idea across.
    Sitting on evidence that would free your client is also unethical


    Why don't you tell me exactly what you think was "unethical" about their actions? Would you condemn them for using the same actions if they had freeed someone you think is innocent?

  8. #448
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    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    Here's a little snippet that should get the idea across.
    It is unethical for a lawyer to not fight for their client with every legal means available to them. It is what keeps some semblance of checks and balances in out judicial system.

  9. #449
    "Murderer": My lawyer dude Themius, this evidence here proves I didn't commit the murders I was convinced of.

    Themius: you're murderer, it's unethical to defend you with any evidence. Kthxbai, keep enjoying jail!

    Glad I don't live in a world where Themius sets the rules.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jtbrig7390 View Post
    True, I was just bored and tired but you are correct.

    Last edited by Thwart; Today at 05:21 PM. Reason: Infracted for flaming
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    millennials were the kids of the 9/11 survivors.

  10. #450
    What kind of shitty laywer offers immunity for prosecution in exchange of testimony in a civil process?

  11. #451
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    Quote Originally Posted by josykay View Post
    What kind of shitty laywer offers immunity for prosecution in exchange of testimony in a civil process?
    The kind of lawyer that willingly defends trump from impeachment.

    Warning : Above post may contain snark and/or sarcasm. Try reparsing with the /s argument before replying.
    What the world has learned is that America is never more than one election away from losing its goddamned mind
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  12. #452
    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    It is ethical for a business to dump chemicals in lakes if it is in the interest of the business and the agent working for the business makes that decision. There's nothing "unethical" about that action in such a world where all that matters are the clients and what the professional can do to benefit the client.

    People often think "but legal so what prob?" as if that's where it ends
    This is a gross misunderstanding of the legal system and the role that lawyers play in it.

    It's not just a job, like being an employee at some company. The idea that EVERYONE is entitled to representation is a core principle of our entire legal system. That's the role that lawyers fill. Conflating the ethical or moral standing of the lawyer with that of the defendant is absurd. It is absolutely ethical for a lawyer to mount the best defense they can even for a client they know is legally in the wrong, because without that expectation there would be no so such thing as a fair trial.

    Our legal system might have a lot of flaws, but this principle is not one of them.
    Last edited by Adamas102; 2021-07-01 at 07:16 AM.

  13. #453
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adamas102 View Post
    It is absolutely ethical for a lawyer to mount the best defense they can even for a client they know is legally in the wrong, because without that expectation there would be no so such thing as a fair trial.
    Sure, that's the norm in every adversarial system of law.

    But the USA has some uniquely whacked out standards for what constitutes that.

    https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...1#post53133210

    Warning : Above post may contain snark and/or sarcasm. Try reparsing with the /s argument before replying.
    What the world has learned is that America is never more than one election away from losing its goddamned mind
    Quote Originally Posted by Howard Tayler
    Political conservatism is just atavism with extra syllables and a necktie.
    Me on Elite : Dangerous | My WoW characters

  14. #454
    Quote Originally Posted by Azadina View Post

    Glad I don't live in a world where Themius sets the rules.
    You are talking about the dude who in another thread not too long ago, argued that so long as something was legal it was ethical. Has a hard time being consistent with arguments.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gelannerai View Post


    Remember, legally no one sane takes Tucker Carlson seriously.

  15. #455
    Quote Originally Posted by josykay View Post
    What kind of shitty laywer offers immunity for prosecution in exchange of testimony in a civil process?
    The kind of lawyer that didn't have a case that could he thought he could win but wanted to give the victim some chance at restitution, which she got to the tune of $3.5 million thanks to Cosby not being able to plead the 5th during his deposition during the civil trial, which was only possible thanks to the prosecutor making the decision for the state not to prosecute Cosby.

  16. #456
    Quote Originally Posted by Aurrora View Post
    The kind of lawyer that didn't have a case that could he thought he could win but wanted to give the victim some chance at restitution, which she got to the tune of $3.5 million thanks to Cosby not being able to plead the 5th during his deposition during the civil trial, which was only possible thanks to the prosecutor making the decision for the state not to prosecute Cosby.
    Was also one of Trump's impeachment defense lawyers. So, not surprising he is a piece of shit.

  17. #457
    Hmm, am I hearing people shitting on lawyers for no good reason? Rofl, understand how a proper justice system works and stop whining about ethics.

    What you SHOULD be complaining about is that the legislative doesn't ensure that these legal loopholes get eradicated. Stop focusing on the pain, treat the fucking broken bone.
    Users with <20 posts and ignored shitposters are automatically invisible. Find out how to do that here and help clean up MMO-OT!
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  18. #458
    The Undying Themius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tehealadin View Post
    You are talking about the dude who in another thread not too long ago, argued that so long as something was legal it was ethical. Has a hard time being consistent with arguments.
    Talk about poor comprehension because I did not.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Adamas102 View Post
    This is a gross misunderstanding of the legal system and the role that lawyers play in it.

    It's not just a job, like being an employee at some company. The idea that EVERYONE is entitled to representation is a core principle of our entire legal system. That's the role that lawyers fill. Conflating the ethical or moral standing of the lawyer with that of the defendant is absurd. It is absolutely ethical for a lawyer to mount the best defense they can even for a client they know is legally in the wrong, because without that expectation there would be no so such thing as a fair trial.

    Our legal system might have a lot of flaws, but this principle is not one of them.
    The basis is still that a lawyer is immune of ethical analysis of their actions because their only action is to defend their client. When you do an analysis. YOU UNIVERSALISE THE ARGUMENT to fit for everyone.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Azadina View Post
    "Murderer": My lawyer dude Themius, this evidence here proves I didn't commit the murders I was convinced of.

    Themius: you're murderer, it's unethical to defend you with any evidence. Kthxbai, keep enjoying jail!

    Glad I don't live in a world where Themius sets the rules.
    Cosby is in fact guilty and admitted it. Or did you forget that part of the conversation

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Egomaniac View Post
    Sitting on evidence that would free your client is also unethical


    Why don't you tell me exactly what you think was "unethical" about their actions? Would you condemn them for using the same actions if they had freeed someone you think is innocent?
    If a serial killer without remorse killed 15 people and admitted it but one murder had a deal is it ethical to argue the remorseless killer should be free the other 14 murders be damned? He wasn’t convicted in a single charge if I recall. The evidence isn’t even that he didn’t do what he admitted to.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodonius View Post
    Black people in america should be happy their ancestors where slaves so they could have a good live.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodonius View Post
    Black women are racist. Im the one trying to make her[my wife] behave like white people and not say it out loud.
    Totally not racist

  19. #459
    Quote Originally Posted by Azadina View Post
    Glad I don't live in a world where Themius sets the rules.
    *shrugs*
    He lives in NJ and keeps a low profile. So...he's tolerated.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Egomaniac View Post
    LEGALITY ALWAYS FUCKING MATTERS
    LAWYER REPSONSIBLITY DOES FUCKING MATTER
    The two don't always agree, but they do mesh together. If they didn't "Miranda" wouldn't be the law.

  20. #460
    Void Lord Doctor Amadeus's Avatar
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    If you have enough money and influence you can rape anyone you want and the law itself is only there to keep good people from doing whatever they want and reward the evil. I think that message is pretty loud and clear.
    #ANTIFA "Intellect alone is useless in a fight...you can't even break a rule, how can you be expected to break bone" Khan Singh

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