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  1. #461
    The Undying Themius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    *shrugs*
    He lives in NJ and keeps a low profile. So...he's tolerated.

    - - - Updated - - -

    The two don't always agree, but they do mesh together. If they didn't "Miranda" wouldn't be the law.
    I'm not setting any rules though.. frankly this discussion I'm having is about the ethics. That's it really, and ethics goes beyond the specified profession which is just logical.

    A lawyer can mount a defence against someone suing for asbestos injuries and it may be found because they smoked twice in their lives they either get no or a low settlement. The job of the lawyer was to defend their client, but was it ethical? Does society consider the reduction of recompense for crimes due to often subjective arguments or misleading arguments ethical? Of course not.

    Lawyers often act in legal but unethical ways in the worldview. It is clear to know what society thinks just by all the jokes about lawyers in this country that are essentially known by all through osmosis. So it can be argued that indeed society sees an issue with lawyers, there's something that makes them feel that they skirt around ethical norms we have come to expect.

    Not all... but there are major sectors of law that precisely fit "entirely legal defence as was my duty and entirely unethical as decided by society"

    Is it ethical to fight and defend a corporation in the specific issue when they intend to privatise another country's natural resources with the express goal to exploit them, often making them far worse of? Society doesn't consider exploitation as ethical so to facilitate exploitation knowingly is also unethical. Now lawyer professional ethics says that the lawyer must fight for this but... is it ethical if you apply this idea to all professions?

    Do all agents of all companies who fight for what is best in their particular company now ethical when they decide to dump chemical waste in order to boost profits and shareholder value? Of course not and we know this.

    If you consider the important stakeholders here we have Cosby, all his victims, and a broad one (which you usually may not do) societal trust in the law.

    Consider how something like this affects each group and it is easy to see how this can be unethical. The conundrum is that the lawyer should mount their best defence, but that opens us up to simply saying all agents who work on behalf of others need not concern themselves with wider societal ethics
    Last edited by Themius; 2021-07-01 at 03:19 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodonius View Post
    Black people in america should be happy their ancestors where slaves so they could have a good live.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodonius View Post
    Black women are racist. Im the one trying to make her[my wife] behave like white people and not say it out loud.
    Totally not racist

  2. #462
    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    I'm not setting any rules though.. frankly this discussion I'm having is about the ethics. That's it really, and ethics goes beyond the specified profession which is just logical.

    A lawyer can mount a defence against someone suing for asbestos injuries and it may be found because they smoked twice in their lives they either get no or a low settlement. The job of the lawyer was to defend their client, but was it ethical? Does society consider the reduction of recompense for crimes due to often subjective arguments or misleading arguments ethical? Of course not.

    Lawyers often act in legal but unethical ways in the worldview. It is clear to know what society thinks just by all the jokes about lawyers in this country that are essentially known by all through osmosis. So it can be argued that indeed society sees an issue with lawyers, there's something that makes them feel that they skirt around ethical norms we have come to expect.

    Not all... but there are major sectors of law that precisely fit "entirely legal defence as was my duty and entirely unethical as decided by society"

    Is it ethical to fight and defend a corporation in the specific issue when they intend to privatise another country's natural resources with the express goal to exploit them, often making them far worse of? Society doesn't consider exploitation as ethical so to facilitate exploitation knowingly is also unethical. Now lawyer professional ethics says that the lawyer must fight for this but... is it ethical if you apply this idea to all professions?

    Do all agents of all companies who fight for what is best in their particular company now ethical when they decide to dump chemical waste in order to boost profits and shareholder value? Of course not and we know this.

    If you consider the important stakeholders here we have Cosby, all his victims, and a broad one (which you usually may not do) societal trust in the law.

    Consider how something like this affects each group and it is easy to see how this can be unethical. The conundrum is that the lawyer should mount their best defence, but that opens us up to simply saying all agents who work on behalf of others need not concern themselves with wider societal ethics
    So what do you propose ? You are asking that lawyers should act in an unethical professional way ? So that would mean they would lose their job ?

    The issue here is not lawyers, but the legal environment that needs to evolve. The rest will follow.

  3. #463
    Themius seems like the guy in the movies that throws rocks through the laywers window at night because, "You're defending that scum!!!"

  4. #464
    The Lightbringer zEmini's Avatar
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    Law and Justice in the US is one big joke. If you got the money you can just get away with anything by being able to afford "technicalities" and other bull shit.

  5. #465
    Lawyers are ethically bound to defend clients to the best of their ability however they see fit within the constraints of the law.
    Their purview isn't adjudication. They aren't judges...a lawyer getting client free because of a technicality is doing his/her job.

  6. #466
    The Undying Themius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    So what do you propose ? You are asking that lawyers should act in an unethical professional way ? So that would mean they would lose their job ?

    The issue here is not lawyers, but the legal environment that needs to evolve. The rest will follow.
    It’s a conundrum as I said. I am not proposing anything. I am simply noting that when an ethical analysis is done there are very clear ethical issues that need to be remedied. Doesn’t mean I have an answer to it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    Lawyers are ethically bound to defend clients to the best of their ability however they see fit within the constraints of the law.
    Their purview isn't adjudication. They aren't judges...a lawyer getting client free because of a technicality is doing his/her job.
    Exactly but they don’t function outside of society therefore there actions have a societal ethical impact.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodonius View Post
    Black people in america should be happy their ancestors where slaves so they could have a good live.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodonius View Post
    Black women are racist. Im the one trying to make her[my wife] behave like white people and not say it out loud.
    Totally not racist

  7. #467
    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    It’s a conundrum as I said. I am not proposing anything. I am simply noting that when an ethical analysis is done there are very clear ethical issues that need to be remedied. Doesn’t mean I have an answer to it.
    But there aren't. You're confusing outcomes that you don't like with there being an ethical issue with someone's actions.

  8. #468
    Quote Originally Posted by tehealadin View Post
    You are talking about the dude who in another thread not too long ago, argued that so long as something was legal it was ethical. Has a hard time being consistent with arguments.
    Was that the one about scalping?
    Quote Originally Posted by Rudol Von Stroheim View Post
    I do not need to play the role of "holier than thou". I'm above that..

  9. #469
    Oh, glad to hear he did not harm any women then if he was found not guilty.

  10. #470
    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post

    Exactly but they don’t function outside of society therefore there actions have a societal ethical impact.
    You really can't see the problem with a lawyer or the justice system in general bending to the will of the Vox Populi?

    Lawyers and the courts are supposed to ignore social pressures specifically to protect society from its own worst tendencies.

    Judges and sometimes juries on the other hand can and should wield their power to uphold the spirit of the law rather than just the literal letter of the law.

    What you're arguing for is literally mob rule.

    Your position is so extreme, so illogical, so asinine that you completely and successfully derailed the thread and are forcing people who'd like to see Cosby rot in a jail cell until the sun don't shine into defending his release.

    That's because your alternative is between scary and absolutely idiotic.

    Again, the issue here was never with his defense. The issue is with the prosecution and the court itself.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Yas-Queen Rochana View Post
    Oh, glad to hear he did not harm any women then if he was found not guilty.
    He is quilty. He has raped dozens possibly hundreds of women. He confessed to it.

    He was released on a technicality.
    Quote Originally Posted by Orlong View Post
    It doesnt destroy the land to bury styrofoam 25 feet below the ground
    Today Obama once again kneeled at the altar of environmental naziism and hurt this once great country. He has now banned all drilling in the Atlantic Ocean

  11. #471
    Quote Originally Posted by Yas-Queen Rochana View Post
    Oh, glad to hear he did not harm any women then if he was found not guilty.
    Obviously, you did read and understood why he was released ...

  12. #472
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    But there aren't. You're confusing outcomes that you don't like with there being an ethical issue with someone's actions.
    Yup.
    And he does that a lot.

  13. #473
    Quote Originally Posted by Mihalik View Post
    He is quilty. He has raped dozens possibly hundreds of women. He confessed to it.
    He was released on a technicality.
    I've never heard of a legal system in which you can get released even if you are found guilty or confessed of being guilty.

    Must be a meme.

  14. #474
    Quote Originally Posted by Yas-Queen Rochana View Post
    I've never heard of a legal system in which you can get released even if you are found guilty or confessed of being guilty.

    Must be a meme.
    Then you haven't heard of many - or any? - legal systems.

    Appealing or overturning convictions is a thing. It's not some crazy, outlandish concept.

  15. #475
    Quote Originally Posted by Yas-Queen Rochana View Post
    I've never heard of a legal system in which you can get released even if you are found guilty or confessed of being guilty.

    Must be a meme.
    Where are you living ? On the moon ? Even in my country, you can be released for "vice de forme" or "vice de procédure" which is exactly what happened here.

  16. #476
    The Undying Themius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    But there aren't. You're confusing outcomes that you don't like with there being an ethical issue with someone's actions.
    So it is ethical to fight to evict natives from their own land for a pipeline… because that’s the job…that would mean it is ethical to fight for exploitation of peoples which is a contradiction.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodonius View Post
    Black people in america should be happy their ancestors where slaves so they could have a good live.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodonius View Post
    Black women are racist. Im the one trying to make her[my wife] behave like white people and not say it out loud.
    Totally not racist

  17. #477
    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    So it is ethical to fight to evict natives from their own land for a pipeline… because that’s the job…that would mean it is ethical to fight for exploitation of peoples which is a contradiction.
    Lawyers SWEAR that yes. I do not think that those that would evict the natives would SWEAR to do it ?

  18. #478
    The Undying cubby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Egomaniac View Post
    And now it's a "Huge win"

    Jesus.

    The whole prosecution of rapists has been set back by like a decade...but wow...what a huge win it is that a man that drugged and raped ~60 women served less than even the minimum of his sentence.

    "Rapist goes free because of legal technicality" is never a win. Never.

    You know you have low standards for success when getting the consolation prize counts as a win...
    The conviction itself was a huge win - the time served fucking sucks, should have been lifetime (might have been if he had served the full 10 years).

    No one is saying him going free is a win. What we are saying is that his conviction and jail sentence, given all the circumstances of his case, is a win.

    Why has the "whole prosecution of rapists been set back by like a decade"?

  19. #479
    The Undying Themius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mihalik View Post
    You really can't see the problem with a lawyer or the justice system in general bending to the will of the Vox Populi?

    Lawyers and the courts are supposed to ignore social pressures specifically to protect society from its own worst tendencies.

    Judges and sometimes juries on the other hand can and should wield their power to uphold the spirit of the law rather than just the literal letter of the law.

    What you're arguing for is literally mob rule.

    Your position is so extreme, so illogical, so asinine that you completely and successfully derailed the thread and are forcing people who'd like to see Cosby rot in a jail cell until the sun don't shine into defending his release.

    That's because your alternative is between scary and absolutely idiotic.

    Again, the issue here was never with his defense. The issue is with the prosecution and the court itself.

    - - - Updated - - -



    He is quilty. He has raped dozens possibly hundreds of women. He confessed to it.

    He was released on a technicality.
    You’re pretending I am stating an action to be taken. I am not. I am not arguing for mob rule. I can do an ethical analysis to say why that’s already unethical because society expects rules. If mob rule were true universally would mean it is ethical for a mob to kill someone for being gay which is a contradiction.

    I never made that argument though.

    Instead I stated how the actions of the lawyer can often work to facilitate unethical people to thrive which is unethical. That doesn’t say what the system should be or how to fix it.

    It’s literally simply an observation
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodonius View Post
    Black people in america should be happy their ancestors where slaves so they could have a good live.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodonius View Post
    Black women are racist. Im the one trying to make her[my wife] behave like white people and not say it out loud.
    Totally not racist

  20. #480
    The Undying cubby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zEmini View Post
    Law and Justice in the US is one big joke. If you got the money you can just get away with anything by being able to afford "technicalities" and other bull shit.
    I would disagree, especially in this case, where a high-profile rich client was convicted on what amounted to a cold case file. Obviously we need to do better, especially on the victim side (the rape kit backlog is a fucking travesty).

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