Page 25 of 27 FirstFirst ...
15
23
24
25
26
27
LastLast
  1. #481
    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    So it is ethical to fight to evict natives from their own land for a pipeline… because that’s the job…that would mean it is ethical to fight for exploitation of peoples which is a contradiction.
    Again, you're confusing different concepts here. In fact, you're completely backwards on this. Providing a zealous defense - within the other rules of the system - is their ethical standard.

    You're looking for a word other than "ethics" here. Maybe you want to have a discussion about the moral concepts surrounding the very concept of legal representation. Who knows.

  2. #482
    This and a million other examples as to how the american justice system is a complete joke.

  3. #483
    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    The basis is still that a lawyer is immune of ethical analysis of their actions because their only action is to defend their client. When you do an analysis. YOU UNIVERSALISE THE ARGUMENT to fit for everyone.
    No, they're not immune from ethical analysis because they're still expected to provide their clients with the best defense possible within the bounds of the law. That's the ethical benchmark that lawyers should be held to. NOT based on what their clients did or didn't do. Again, you're conflating the morality of the individual with the morality of their role within the system. The system HAS to ensure that all sides receive representation, otherwise it's neither a fair nor ethical system. That's the principle, at least.

    Basically you seem to be arguing that an ethical system should bar "the bad guys" from having any sort of legal representation. I disagree, and would argue that such a system would be unethical.
    Last edited by Adamas102; 2021-07-01 at 05:28 PM.

  4. #484
    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    I would disagree, especially in this case, where a high-profile rich client was convicted on what amounted to a cold case file. Obviously we need to do better, especially on the victim side (the rape kit backlog is a fucking travesty).
    This case only happened because of enormous society-wide pressure and it still ended much better for the guilty criminal than it would for the vast majority of innocent convicts. Pretty piss-poor example of how the US legal system isn't a joke. You realize that this was an exception, not the rule, for how the rich are treated, right? And even at that he ended up walking, which almost certainly would not have happened if he were poor. He'd have to have won the public defender lottery.

  5. #485
    The Undying cubby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    the Quiet Room
    Posts
    31,949
    Quote Originally Posted by Zaktar View Post
    This case only happened because of enormous society-wide pressure and it still ended much better for the guilty criminal than it would for the vast majority of innocent convicts. Pretty piss-poor example of how the US legal system isn't a joke. You realize that this was an exception, not the rule, for how the rich are treated, right? And even at that he ended up walking, which almost certainly would not have happened if he were poor. He'd have to have won the public defender lottery.
    But it did happen. And he was convicted. And his persona was destroyed. Harvey Weinstein was also convicted and sentenced to 23 years.

    Cosby walked on a technicality, and it was a fostered by his wealth (I agree that a poor defendant wouldn't have had much of a chance). But the war on the rich being accountable has two big wins. And that's a nice shift in the right direction.

  6. #486
    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    But it did happen. And he was convicted. And his persona was destroyed. Harvey Weinstein was also convicted and sentenced to 23 years.

    Cosby walked on a technicality, and it was a fostered by his wealth (I agree that a poor defendant wouldn't have had much of a chance). But the war on the rich being accountable has two big wins. And that's a nice shift in the right direction.
    I appreciate your optimism, and I hope that in the long run you're correct and this is indicative of a changing trend. To me it's how our justice system has always maintained legitimacy despite being mostly a tool for the rich: high profile bones get tossed to the masses while business as usual continues.

  7. #487
    The Undying cubby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    the Quiet Room
    Posts
    31,949
    Quote Originally Posted by Zaktar View Post
    I appreciate your optimism, and I hope that in the long run you're correct and this is indicative of a changing trend. To me it's how our justice system has always maintained legitimacy despite being mostly a tool for the rich: high profile bones get tossed to the masses while business as usual continues.
    And that has always been a frustration - the rich are always treated differently than the poor or middle class (especially the poor). And really overall I don't see that changing in the U.S. even with the shift in mindset with sexual assaulters.

  8. #488
    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    If a serial killer without remorse killed 15 people and admitted it but one murder had a deal is it ethical to argue the remorseless killer should be free the other 14 murders be damned? He wasn’t convicted in a single charge if I recall. The evidence isn’t even that he didn’t do what he admitted to.
    The evidence is that he had an immunity deal.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    Why has the "whole prosecution of rapists been set back by like a decade"?
    Because it's going to make it even harder for victims to come forward.

    No one is saying him going free is a win. What we are saying is that his conviction and jail sentence, given all the circumstances of his case, is a win.
    The conviction was a win. THe conviction being overturned turns that W into an L.

  9. #489
    The Undying cubby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    the Quiet Room
    Posts
    31,949
    Quote Originally Posted by Egomaniac View Post
    The evidence is that he had an immunity deal.
    @Themius - and there were multiple charges, but it was against one accuser. So in your analogy it was serial killer who killed one person, was convicted of it, but released on a technicality - after admitting in a separate suit that he did it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Egomaniac View Post
    Because it's going to make it even harder for victims to come forward.
    I'm not seeing that train of thought - not disagreeing, just not seeing how Cosby being released on a technicality, after being convicted and serving almost three year.


    Quote Originally Posted by Egomaniac View Post
    The conviction was a win. THe conviction being overturned turns that W into an L.
    Here is where we disagree. Keep in mind he admitted to doing it - his guilt is a fact, entered into the record. You notice that all the talk from the defense attorneys is "[Cosby] was treated so unfairly" and NOT that "he is innocent".

  10. #490
    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    [MENTION=902560]
    I'm not seeing that train of thought - not disagreeing, just not seeing how Cosby being released on a technicality, after being convicted and serving almost three year.
    You understand that rape victims have a hard time coming forward already, yes? That rape victims don't have much faith that their attacker will be held accountable?
    Now imagine you are a rape victim and you just saw a man that was convicted of rape go free...

    Here is where we disagree. Keep in mind he admitted to doing it - his guilt is a fact, entered into the record. You notice that all the talk from the defense attorneys is "[Cosby] was treated so unfairly" and NOT that "he is innocent".
    He's still free. The fact that he's free even though he was found guilty kinda makes it worse.

  11. #491
    The Undying cubby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    the Quiet Room
    Posts
    31,949
    Quote Originally Posted by Egomaniac View Post
    You understand that rape victims have a hard time coming forward already, yes? That rape victims don't have much faith that their attacker will be held accountable?
    Now imagine you are a rape victim and you just saw a man that was convicted of rape go free...
    Indeed they do. But he was prosecuted, although I can see where his release would have a chilling effect. Not only convicted, but admitted it in a court document, just to make your point.


    Quote Originally Posted by Egomaniac View Post
    He's still free. The fact that he's free even though he was found guilty kinda makes it worse.
    That's true - he is free, regardless of anything else. And he can't be retried. I guess sometimes I look at these things with a devil's advocate approach. And the statute of limitations has run out on the other accusers.

  12. #492
    The Unstoppable Force Orange Joe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    001100010010011110100001101101110011
    Posts
    20,640
    Quote Originally Posted by Yas-Queen Rochana View Post
    Oh, glad to hear he did not harm any women then if he was found not guilty.
    Thats not what happened at all. Way to totally misrepresent what happened.
    I have a fan. Seems he was permabanned.
    Yo, don't mind my "street talk"

  13. #493
    Quote Originally Posted by Yas-Queen Rochana View Post
    I've never heard of a legal system in which you can get released even if you are found guilty or confessed of being guilty.

    Must be a meme.
    Congratulations, you have now officially met the United States justice system.

    1. He has been found guilty by a jury of his peers after extensive deliberations.
    2. He has confessed to drugging and having sex with his accuser in a separate civil suit, where he was forced to pay a substantial amount of money to his victim.

    A chicken shit prosecutor promised him no jail time in exchange for admitting guilt in the civil suit. Which again, he did.

    Based on that confession a new prosecutor decided to bring a criminal case against Cosby. A case in which he was once again convicted.

    His conviction being overturned wasn't based on him being innocent. It was based on the fact that a prior prosecutor promised Cosby immunity from criminal prosecution in exchange for him admitting guilt in a civil suit

  14. #494
    The Unstoppable Force Theodarzna's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    NorCal
    Posts
    24,166
    What a fuck up by the DA's.

    I guess there's no stoppin' the ol' puddin' pop.
    Quote Originally Posted by Crissi View Post
    i think I have my posse filled out now. Mars is Theo, Jupiter is Vanyali, Linadra is Venus, and Heather is Mercury. Dragon can be Pluto.
    On MMO-C we learn that Anti-Fascism is locking arms with corporations, the State Department and agreeing with the CIA, But opposing the CIA and corporate America, and thinking Jews have a right to buy land and can expect tenants to pay rent THAT is ultra-Fash Nazism. Bellingcat is an MI6/CIA cut out. Clyburn Truther.

  15. #495
    Quote Originally Posted by Egomaniac View Post
    You understand that rape victims have a hard time coming forward already, yes? That rape victims don't have much faith that their attacker will be held accountable?
    Now imagine you are a rape victim and you just saw a man that was convicted of rape go free...



    He's still free. The fact that he's free even though he was found guilty kinda makes it worse.
    If anything this should be used to convince people why they need to come forward immediately. Of course many rapists are going to go free if you wait a decade to file the complaint after all forensic evidence is nonexistent.

  16. #496
    Quote Originally Posted by Aurrora View Post
    If anything this should be used to convince people why they need to come forward immediately. Of course many rapists are going to go free if you wait a decade to file the complaint after all forensic evidence is nonexistent.
    That doesn't matter at all in this case. But thanks for being the "They should come forward sooner" guy.

  17. #497
    The Unstoppable Force Theodarzna's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    NorCal
    Posts
    24,166
    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    So what do you propose ? You are asking that lawyers should act in an unethical professional way ? So that would mean they would lose their job ?

    The issue here is not lawyers, but the legal environment that needs to evolve. The rest will follow.
    I mean there is no reasonable reform that doesn't amount to granting the government greater prosecutor powers and an easier time incarcerating people.

    Which is a weird thing to advocate for if you've spent the last year screaming ACAB and Abolish the Police and raising cane over the incarceration rates in this country.
    Quote Originally Posted by Crissi View Post
    i think I have my posse filled out now. Mars is Theo, Jupiter is Vanyali, Linadra is Venus, and Heather is Mercury. Dragon can be Pluto.
    On MMO-C we learn that Anti-Fascism is locking arms with corporations, the State Department and agreeing with the CIA, But opposing the CIA and corporate America, and thinking Jews have a right to buy land and can expect tenants to pay rent THAT is ultra-Fash Nazism. Bellingcat is an MI6/CIA cut out. Clyburn Truther.

  18. #498
    His release had nothing to do with guilty verdict. He's still guilty...he won't be exonerated. Prosecutors fucked up by making a deal to begin with.

  19. #499
    Quote Originally Posted by Egomaniac View Post
    That doesn't matter at all in this case. But thanks for being the "They should come forward sooner" guy.
    It absolutely matters if you bothered to research it at all. The reason the first prosecutor didn't have a case and made the deal not to prosecute so that Andrea Costand could receive restitution through her civil case was because of the lack of forensic evidence due to the passage of time between when the rape occurred and when she made the criminal complaint(a year).

    Unless your idea of justice is a rope and a tree filing a police report while there is still physical evidence of an event which in most cases is completely legal and done in privacy is the best chance you have of actually seeing justice done.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    His release had nothing to do with guilty verdict. He's still guilty...he won't be exonerated. Prosecutors fucked up by making a deal to begin with.
    He's guilty as hell.... but legally he is not.

  20. #500
    Quote Originally Posted by Aurrora View Post
    It absolutely matters if you bothered to research it at all. The reason the first prosecutor didn't have a case and made the deal not to prosecute so that Andrea Costand could receive restitution through her civil case was because of the lack of forensic evidence due to the passage of time between when the rape occurred and when she made the criminal complaint(a year).

    Unless your idea of justice is a rope and a tree filing a police report while there is still physical evidence of an event which in most cases is completely legal and done in privacy is the best chance you have of actually seeing justice done.

    - - - Updated - - -



    He's guilty as hell.... but legally he is not.
    He is legally guilty. That is the point. But a deal was cut with him unfortunately.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •