ML changes kinda expose the problem with the WoW Forum community

[Deleted]

What you are describing isn't loot system issue. Maybe with PL being the only loot system Blizzard will feel more pressured into actually addressing the ridiculous cases of scaling issues. And tbh I'd like that as it's annoying on its own and ML can mitigate it a bit but it doesn't fix the underlying issue.

It's not only a loot issue. It's a game / class / mechanics design issue that's been ongoing for years in wow, and will most likely keep going on, at least in some measure, hopefully not in the same scale than what we've been seeing in Legion, and removing ML means removing the only tool we had at our disposal to remedy to this design issue.
I don't think PL only will make fixing this more of a priority. Quick example : arcano and Aman'thul are still BiS trinkets by a huge margin for a few (a lot ? didn't stay up to date on all specs) specs in the game, and they're PL only, and still one of the most egregious cases of "1 drop makes your dps broken" I have seen in the game yet.

[KaPe]

I know there are ~1k mythic guilds that have cleared the raid and I'd guess ~75% of the guilds that use ML are doing splitruns. Split runs in general are for those who want to clear the instance asap, which is also why ML is being used.

I would be very, *very* surprised if that was the case. We did couple split runs in the past - even before flexible sizes were a thing - and it's a massive organizational headache for guilds that are not in the low hundreds. Legion has only made it worse with how difficult it was to keep up with AP while splitting your attention between multiple characters. It takes (or used to) a lot of extra time to have raid ready alt, on a level that will not cripple raid's perfomance. That's on top of people being less skilled in general, so their mains won't perform at the same level they would in top guilds, so it's even more difficult.

Hell, even just assigning all the loot would take much longer. The gains are there, of course, but they aren't really worth the extra time investment for >500 guilds. On that level of play, gear is only a factor for the first few bosses, which you cannot really steamroll without extra tiers/trinkets/other powerful gear, but it quickly evens out once the fights get tougher.

[Lilija]

I know there are ~1k mythic guilds that have cleared the raid and I'd guess ~75% of the guilds that use ML are doing splitruns. Split runs in general are for those who want to clear the instance asap, which is also why ML is being used.

You guess but you do not know. And that is the problem. All the arguments of this type are not verifiable. Tbh 99% of arguments in this discussion are not verifiable.

Pl indeed does yield more loot but its not significantly more and because it yields loot for the specs it means that you can skip out armor class(es) just fine (taking couple, say Mail users leads to loot wastage), its something ML users go around by actually making the raid so it uses ~everything there is to use.

From my point of view it has only been a struggle to have balanced raid comp and we still clear Mythic in our own speed. So I've seen quite enough of ML wasted loot. Now we don't know how many guilds actually have the luxury of balanced raid comp and how many don't. We don't know how many guilds do split runs and how many don't. We don't know bunch of things. However, it's rather possible that all those instances exist in some manner and looking at it from the perspective of let's say top 500 guilds is like a different world from the slower progressing mythic raiders. And as someone being in that "rest" part I can assure you that it's not gear that is slowing down the progression (it's hard to say at which point it starts being the case but it surely does).

We can't say which system is more beneficial at the time its properly in place and implemented, we can say with 100% guarantee that currently ML is way better than PL for progression and if nothing changes with PL then ML would be better in BfA as well.
Now if you found a way to combat split runs done with ML AND class scaling properly worked with ilvl > stats then we could assume that PL would be better. However thats just not gonna be the case, ever.

You don't know that If split runs are more hassle than gain most guilds will stop doing them (time is money friend ). And I like the incentive for Blizzard to actually take a deeper look into scaling because it's an issue of its own. Tbh, by this change Blizzard makes things harder for themselves because that will mean players will become more demanding regarding solving those issues. I mean I for once would love to not have to go back to old content for some trinket or set bonus cause in guilds with less resources it's a no no. And puging mythic doesn't happen until it's rather irrelevant.

So while I know Blizzard might eventually fail with the gear scaling as it's a rather complex task they might admit that and give ML back to let's say Mythic raids. But for now I am actually curious how this whole new idea for loot system works out in practice.

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It's not only a loot issue. It's a game / class / mechanics design issue that's been ongoing for years in wow, and will most likely keep going on, at least in some measure, hopefully not in the same scale than what we've been seeing in Legion, and removing ML means removing the only tool we had at our disposal to remedy to this design issue.
I don't think PL only will make fixing this more of a priority. Quick example : arcano and Aman'thul are still BiS trinkets by a huge margin for a few (a lot ? didn't stay up to date on all specs) specs in the game, and they're PL only, and still one of the most egregious cases of "1 drop makes your dps broken" I have seen in the game yet.

Aman'thul is Blizzard trolling us tbh :P The drop rate is extremely low and the chances limited by resets. Arcano is more about resilience of farming currency for the vendor so not as trollish.

As for the gear scaling issue in general it's up to how much we will be able to bug Blizzard about it I mean no one knows if it's really doable but maybe they can make a few things better. Any improvement will be welcomed. And now we also have an incentive to push Blizzard more on the issue. I mean well, I have no idea what really is possible and what will happen but I like to look for the possible positives out of a change. And the possible problems don't really seem to be gamebreaking so I am willing to give it a try.

[lappee]

You guess but you do not know. And that is the problem. All the arguments of this type are not verifiable. Tbh 99% of arguments in this discussion are not verifiable.

Majority of the arguments in this discussion are speculation of what will happen which is why there even is a discussion.

From my point of view it has only been a struggle to have balanced raid comp and we still clear Mythic in our own speed. So I've seen quite enough of ML wasted loot. Now we don't know how many guilds actually have the luxury of balanced raid comp and how many don't. We don't know how many guilds do split runs and how many don't. We don't know bunch of things. However, it's rather possible that all those instances exist in some manner and looking at it from the perspective of let's say top 500 guilds is like a different world from the slower progressing mythic raiders. And as someone being in that "rest" part I can assure you that it's not gear that is slowing down the progression (it's hard to say at which point it starts being the case but it surely does).

Non-balanced raid comp will waste loot if you don't have anyone that takes it, if you have one or two of each takers for items (which isn't hard to do, just one or two of each armor class will do) and you're good to go. After that any extra items on new weeks will be wasted but that will be the case with PL as well.

What PL will encourage is "bring the class, not the player" due to it actually being beneficial to have as few different classes as possible to distribute the loot the best one can, with those classes being part of the same armor type as well.

Looking it from a top 500, if they care about progression asap then they'll try to mimick the top in any way they can. If they don't then they'll do whatever they want, like use PL even when ML is an option.

You don't know that If split runs are more hassle than gain most guilds will stop doing them (time is money friend ). And I like the incentive for Blizzard to actually take a deeper look into scaling because it's an issue of its own. Tbh, by this change Blizzard makes things harder for themselves because that will mean players will become more demanding regarding solving those issues. I mean I for once would love to not have to go back to old content for some trinket or set bonus cause in guilds with less resources it's a no no. And puging mythic doesn't happen until it's rather irrelevant.

I do know that, the game will never be simplified enough so that classes are just copies of each other meaning the stat gains are similar or secondary scaling being so bad that they literally don't matter at all. It just won't happen as it breaks the whole system.

Blizzard will try to, as always, get scaling be better but they'll never get them to be equal among classes. Trinkets are a different story all together.

So while I know Blizzard might eventually fail with the gear scaling as it's a rather complex task they might admit that and give ML back to let's say Mythic raids. But for now I am actually curious how this whole new idea for loot system works out in practice.

I'm doubtful that they will, people will hate it but still keep playing because they don't raid for the gear. It is just sad to see one minigame lost for those who cared about it.

[theyanger]

I'm doubtful that they will, people will hate it but still keep playing because they don't raid for the gear. It is just sad to see one minigame lost for those who cared about it.

I have never in my 14 years playing this game met anyone that ENJOYED being forced to do splits or mirror raids or anything else. I know people that enjoy alts, and that's cool, but the first week or two of a new zone, running it X number of times to maximize tier and whatnot for your mains? Have never met anyone that liked it. So to say it's 'sad' to see the minigame lost for those who cared about it, is to overlook the fact that MOST people who were forced to engage in this 'minigame' (and that's generous to refer to circuimventing the loot restrictions in the game in the first place as a minigame) did not enjoy it. It sapped a lot of free time for a massive power gain that any high end raider felt compelled to do simply to compete.

You can argue that a lot of things are time sinks that players feel compelled to do for power, but usually they're not THAT big of a gain, not like split runs are (which are absurdly strong as you know in those early weeks of a tier), and they generally don't involve astronomically more playtime like splits do. Blizz has cut down on a lot of the other unfun ways to increase your power as well. It's like going back to Naxx era and getting world buffs or farming chimaeroks or 30 consumables in felwood or whatever, most people didn't enjoy that either, and it's gone.

I think it's been since late mop that I've seen even relatively low tier guilds doing splits, I know at the start of WOD we were doing 2 or 3 splits for our modest top 10 us tier raiding schedule, and I was seeing friends in like, US 100 guilds doing that crap too just because even though their guilds weren't anything special, the power creep was too much - it's like an arms race to retain your position. as long as you can effectively run even most of the tier bosses in a split or two, you've effectively doubled your gain for that first week. That was so bad for the raiding scene. Even if you or a few others liked it, I don't think it's THAT hard to understand how toxic the notion of splits had become.

[Dartz1979]

Personally im glad master loot is gone and it's now personal meaning i won't ever and i mean NEVER get ninja looted ever again.. you want those old school stuff back play classic when it launches... good day to you kind people.

[SirCowdog]

This is bias, we are top 500 and we didnt do any splits, at least for Antorus. Major issue was players start slacking as the Spring started.

Exactly. Where are you ranked now, by NOT doing split runs?

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No idea. But I would like everyone to include the psychology of why people prefer ML next to the which loot system is more effective (which we don't really know for 100% cases). As humans we tend to be oblivious to how much our perception influences our choices over the actual reality itself. And well... people don't like change unless it screams "improvement" right into their faces.

You keep sticking on this concept of "we don't know which one is better". Clearly ML is better, since all the top end guilds use it. They did not get to that high of a rank by not doing what is best for their progress. Whether or not it's more enjoyable, or fun, or gives people warm fuzzies is irrelevant.

And in BfA there's no choice, so there's no comparison to be made at all.

[Spookysheep]

This is a fantastic change on blizzard's part. ML was being abused and it is time for it to go.

[lappee]

I have never in my 14 years playing this game met anyone that ENJOYED being forced to do splits or mirror raids or anything else. I know people that enjoy alts, and that's cool, but the first week or two of a new zone, running it X number of times to maximize tier and whatnot for your mains? Have never met anyone that liked it. So to say it's 'sad' to see the minigame lost for those who cared about it, is to overlook the fact that MOST people who were forced to engage in this 'minigame' (and that's generous to refer to circuimventing the loot restrictions in the game in the first place as a minigame) did not enjoy it. It sapped a lot of free time for a massive power gain that any high end raider felt compelled to do simply to compete.

If you had read the thread you'd know I'm talking about the theorycrafting side of who to award loot and why, what kind of raid composition to use to maximize everything etc. even for split raids.

[Lilija]

You keep sticking on this concept of "we don't know which one is better". Clearly ML is better, since all the top end guilds use it. They did not get to that high of a rank by not doing what is best for their progress. Whether or not it's more enjoyable, or fun, or gives people warm fuzzies is irrelevant.

And you keep overestimating the value of loot in the speed of progression. There are also things like time commitment, knowledge and the ability to press buttons in game properly (this last one is the strongest in my personal opinion). If any of the other factor is falling the value of gear changes as well.

Also, you miss one thing: people in top guilds can be wrong as well (I would like to remind the mathematically impossible Yogg0 where the Chinese didn't get the memo :P). All I am saying is that objectively we don't have the data to say which one is better. All we have is people's perception and the fact that they have been using the system for a very long time since before PL there was really no close alternative (group loot drops the same amount of loot as ML). My theory is that in some cases ML was better and in some it was not (even without social aspects but purely taking in all the possible math aspects of effectiveness, RNG and how well the item can be utilized). But since we don't have all the required data we cannot possibly know when exactly it happens that a particular system works better. From the point of view of a single guild it would have to be calculated for each and every item taking into account the raid comp and estimated chance of a drop of any particular item. So from math point of view this is a very complex problem that I know for sure none of the players was able or even trying to solve. And without solving it you cannot say objectively which system is better. All you have is perception of players which is not objective (no matter how successful they are). We are operating with the aggregate of anecdotal evidence and extremely partial math. This means no one knows which one is better and when. We only have known that for tier sets because the gain from those was extremely varied for different specs by a large enough margin to show the obvious gain. Vast majority of gear doesn't work that way and operates on quite low % increase.

TL;DR: there is no objective proof of which one is better and when you remove the tier sets - perception of any group of people no matter of how well informed if not based on an objective fact is only a subjective observation.

[lappee]

Gear is the most lucrative factor in progression, apart from making tactics which is the defining factor between top 1-10 guilds. People can perform in the 95% radius quite easily in top 500 guilds, getting 5% extra from your personal gameplay is much harder than getting it from gear at the start of a patch.

Guilds can indeed be wrong, it was only EJ that claimed Yogg+0 to be mathematically impossible and they were never that high on the rankings. They were mostly Theorycrafters for classes and thus didn't necessarily poses the on hand information.

We don't have exact math of how much ML is better than PL since it was always pointless to make, PL could never achieve anywhere close what ML could - mainly because split raids. Sure if you had perfect luck (every guy gets bis loot from every boss) but thats less likely than winning lottery multiple times in a row.

If you want to make some math, you can assume PL drops ML+1 loot per boss on average and do the math based on that (no tier sets, even class representation etc.)

One point I didn't even consider before is that with ML your dps gets the gear while with PL healers/tanks take, essentially, what would be the extra drops (and more). It just can't compete with current loot rates.

[SirCowdog]

And you keep overestimating the value of loot in the speed of progression. There are also things like time commitment, knowledge and the ability to press buttons in game properly (this last one is the strongest in my personal opinion). If any of the other factor is falling the value of gear changes as well.

Also, you miss one thing: people in top guilds can be wrong as well (I would like to remind the mathematically impossible Yogg0 where the Chinese didn't get the memo :P). All I am saying is that objectively we don't have the data to say which one is better. All we have is people's perception and the fact that they have been using the system for a very long time since before PL there was really no close alternative (group loot drops the same amount of loot as ML). My theory is that in some cases ML was better and in some it was not (even without social aspects but purely taking in all the possible math aspects of effectiveness, RNG and how well the item can be utilized). But since we don't have all the required data we cannot possibly know when exactly it happens that a particular system works better. From the point of view of a single guild it would have to be calculated for each and every item taking into account the raid comp and estimated chance of a drop of any particular item. So from math point of view this is a very complex problem that I know for sure none of the players was able or even trying to solve. And without solving it you cannot say objectively which system is better. All you have is perception of players which is not objective (no matter how successful they are). We are operating with the aggregate of anecdotal evidence and extremely partial math. This means no one knows which one is better and when. We only have known that for tier sets because the gain from those was extremely varied for different specs by a large enough margin to show the obvious gain. Vast majority of gear doesn't work that way and operates on quite low % increase.

TL;DR: there is no objective proof of which one is better and when you remove the tier sets - perception of any group of people no matter of how well informed if not based on an objective fact is only a subjective observation.

For the most part I agree with your logic. It's just the context that has me continuing to disagree.

If both systems of acquiring gear via drops are reasonably equal in number of drops, the team which is able to place the loot where it do the most good will end up with overall better raid performance than a group who is reliant solely on RNG.

Could the RNG group get lucky drops that were perfectly optimal every time? I guess. But that wouldn't be reliable. If PL were reliably good enough to be competitive, we'd see a LOT more guilds using it in competitive raiding. Which we don't.

I can't say with absolute certainty that there isn't some magical way to use PL to outperform a system that allows trading. But I'm 99% sure that in an environment as challenging as Mythic raiding, ML is going to allow for better performance at the raid level. Heroic and below has much lower tolerances, and super fine-tuning your raid composition isn't necessary.

Whether this remains true in BfA? We'll never know, because Blizzard isn't allowing any choice in the matter. I still highly suspect guilds will do their utmost to reduce the effects of RNG generated by PL as much as possible, however. And not because of habit, but rather because it's mathematically increasing performance.

[Lilija]

For the most part I agree with your logic. It's just the context that has me continuing to disagree.

If both systems of acquiring gear via drops are reasonably equal in number of drops, the team which is able to place the loot where it do the most good will end up with overall better raid performance than a group who is reliant solely on RNG.

So at the start I will not state which is better because it doesn't really affect me personally so I don't care really.

I would say that all the teams that can do that just do that and if that's taken away from them nothing really changes because all other more important and more personal factors like skill and knowledge are still there.

And then there are teams that do not really gain anything significant from ML yet they use it because they perceive it helps them while it might not be the case.

So I don't really think this change will affect the game field in the current mythic progression scene.

Could the RNG group get lucky drops that were perfectly optimal every time? I guess. But that wouldn't be reliable. If PL were reliably good enough to be competitive, we'd see a LOT more guilds using it in competitive raiding. Which we don't.

And then there is a the psychological reasons of why people keep using the system that makes them feel in control and which they are used to. How do you know people are using the system mainly because of its effectiveness (which no one can reliably prove) and not because they just FEEL it's better because it has been better than other loot systems before PL have existed. So basically I am personally have no idea which one is better across the board I am not convinced by the argument "it's better because best players say so". And PL have been in game for too short of the time for the player population to reliably gather enough information that would lead to the natural switch which you would like to see as a proof.

I can't say with absolute certainty that there isn't some magical way to use PL to outperform a system that allows trading. But I'm 99% sure that in an environment as challenging as Mythic raiding, ML is going to allow for better performance at the raid level. Heroic and below has much lower tolerances, and super fine-tuning your raid composition isn't necessary.

But you don't have proof of that If you wanted to do that empirically you would require guilds with all other aspects being very closely equal and then make one use ML and other PL and see which one does better. So what I am saying people think ML is more effective but they do not know that and there is a significant difference between thinking and knowing.

Whether this remains true in BfA? We'll never know, because Blizzard isn't allowing any choice in the matter. I still highly suspect guilds will do their utmost to reduce the effects of RNG generated by PL as much as possible, however. And not because of habit, but rather because it's mathematically increasing performance.

I would like to see that math

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Gear is the most lucrative factor in progression, apart from making tactics which is the defining factor between top 1-10 guilds. People can perform in the 95% radius quite easily in top 500 guilds, getting 5% extra from your personal gameplay is much harder than getting it from gear at the start of a patch.

I see a lot of assumptions not enough of proof. I don't deny the things you are describing to be true in some portion of mythic raiding population but I think you highly exaggerate the numbers to your theory's advantage. I mean if you have certain thesis it's good to know it weak points and for me personally I don't see any side of the discussion having any strong enough theories to make any of the system so much better than the other in the scope of even whole mythic raiding population. Now we can only guess what data Blizzard is basing their decision on but I guess we can assume they have the data of loot distribution in any given raiding population and that is far better than what we can operate with.

And there is one more factor. Since Legion we have had a lot more sources of gear than raids and it seems to stay that way.

[lappee]

I would like to see that math

Overly-oversimplificated:
Loot A offers 10% increase for player X
Loot A offers 15% increase for Player Y
Loot A offers 0% increase for Player Z

ML you can decide who gets the loot, PL you can't. Stack loots on Player Y instead of evenly spreading them over the 3 players and you'll find the 15% player Y gets is closer to 50% increase from the original dps (since its multiplicative). The other two players can't ever get that high because of scaling even if they get more loots in total.

Gear stacking just is that big of a thing currently, we'll see the end result in BfA

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I see a lot of assumptions not enough of proof. I don't deny the things you are describing to be true in some portion of mythic raiding population but I think you highly exaggerate the numbers to your theory's advantage. I mean if you have certain thesis it's good to know it weak points and for me personally I don't see any side of the discussion having any strong enough theories to make any of the system so much better than the other in the scope of even whole mythic raiding population. Now we can only guess what data Blizzard is basing their decision on but I guess we can assume they have the data of loot distribution in any given raiding population and that is far better than what we can operate with.

And there is one more factor. Since Legion we have had a lot more sources of gear than raids and it seems to stay that way.

Making any exact math on it requires too much since any common sense shows one to be superior.

Mythic raiding population varies a great deal, some have the drive to compete and do what they can to get there while others just raid for fun and don't care about gear that much. ML was always designed for those who wanted the control to maximize their output while PL (and previously group loot) was for those who didn't.

We don't know if Blizzard is even making the decision on any data regarding loot drops, we only know what they said in Q&A: streamline loot rules (aka remove everything but PL) and protect Trials. Possible reduction in split raids was something they didn't aim for but aren't unhappy if it happens (or so they say). Absolutely nothing about loot distribution data and I seriously doubt they have any data on who got what loot and when.

Also one more factor, Legion has TF which makes split raids even more prominent. Ideally you wanted to have 1 raid for each main character to maximize chances for high TF loot but as some point you had to make a judgement call, which ended in having a raid for ~each armor type (iirc Method/Exorsus did 7 or 8 splits).

One could probably make a sim profiles for a raid with ML and one with PL.
PL: Average drops is ML+1 per boss, stats are distributed randomly from those drops (previous gear has optimized stats)
ML: Classes with best scaling have ~full gear while others have ~none, depending how many bosses are downed. Fully optimized stats

And just sim the difference, heck make it easier and forget about optimized stats and just go with even distribution of them (which favors PL) and see the difference from just stacking gear.

[SirCowdog]

I would say that all the teams that can do that just do that and if that's taken away from them nothing really changes because all other more important and more personal factors like skill and knowledge are still there.

I disagree that skill and knowledge are MORE important. This isn't Dark Souls. You can't beat every boss in the game with the starting gear. If enrage timers weren't a thing, you'd have a point. But gear IS an EXTREMELY powerful factor in determining how well a person or a raid performs. Just as much as skill, knowledge, etc.

If you take away the ability to place gear in the raid group where it does the most good, of course skillful and high-performing guilds will still be skillful and high-performing. They'll just progress slower because one of their tools is taken away. That doesn't mean that the other tools magically become more powerful. It just means you have less tools and have to make due with it.

And then there are teams that do not really gain anything significant from ML yet they use it because they perceive it helps them while it might not be the case.

Teams that do not gain anything significant from ML are not raiding at the competitive level. Either because they're bad or because they aren't using ML, and thus aren't able to keep up. :/

And then there is a the psychological reasons of why people keep using the system that makes them feel in control and which they are used to. How do you know people are using the system mainly because of its effectiveness (which no one can reliably prove)

My argument is not based on what people FEEL is better. It's based on the simple fact that with reasonably equal numbers of drops, if you can choose where to assign loot, you WILL get more performance. This is basic statistics.

Do you just randomly equip gear based on whatever drops without ever considering the actual stats on it because it "feels" better? Or do you check which stats give your spec the most benefit, and target gear with those stats? This is EXACTLY why gear can be more powerful than a higher iLVL drop if it has the right secondary stats. And this is exactly the same concept in raids, just done at the group level instead of the individual.

If people want to use ML in a part of the game where it doesn't matter, that's up to them. They're probably using it wrong, but hey, that's their choice. But when you start getting to the point where you're actually optimizing your gear and your raid for every tiny piece of performance, then randomly assigning drops with personal loot is going to be outclassed unless the sheer volume of drops from PL makes it predictable. And Blizzard isn't going to give us that much gear.

But you don't have proof of that If you wanted to do that empirically you would require guilds with all other aspects being very closely equal and then make one use ML and other PL and see which one does better. So what I am saying people think ML is more effective but they do not know that and there is a significant difference between thinking and knowing.

I just described why you wouldn't use random gear for your personal equipment if you had the choice to choose the gear. This is the same thing.

If two equally skilled players are competing for DPS, and one has optimized gear with correct stats and the other doesn't, who do you think is going to perform better?

Likewise, if two equally skillful guilds are competing in a raid, and one is optimizing their drops and the other isn't, which is going to perform better?

[lappee]

So I ran a really simplified sim, 14 random dps (all different specs, just took profiles in alphabetical order from simcraft). Evenly distributed stats at 975 gear (summed stats from DH T21 profile and divided by 4) to 8500 per stat. Reduced it by 15 ilvl's (~6% decrease in stats, checked from wowhead on couple pieces) to 8000 per stat. Main stats went down 15% checked by same method.
I did not touch Weapons, Legendaries or Trinkets (favors PL)
Set bonuses were removed.
Tanks and Healers are not accounted for in dps. (slightly favors ML)

12 bosses 4 loot per boss with ML, 5 with PL. Gives us 3 players with full gear and 1 with 20% of full gear (15 slots, not counting dualwields) with ML, and 3 pieces of loot (or 20% of full gear with PL for everyone.

ML: 3 dps went to 8500 secondaries + appropriate amount of main stat, one to 8100 secondaries + appropriate amount of main stat (gave these to the first 4 on the list, alphabetically. yes I'm lazy)
PL: All dps went to 8100 secondaries (8000+20% of the way to full gear) and appropriate amount of main stat.

ML Results https://puu.sh/Alod1/0561c4e9c5.png
PL results https://puu.sh/AlocO/f85918ebe6.png

ML still wins in raid dps, getting tanks and possible healer dps in would get PL closer but not quite there. All of this even though PL had a massive advantage over ML due to weapons and trinkets being basically disabled (didn't change at all), classes being selected randomly etc.