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  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by rda View Post
    I know all this. I guess I wasn't clear enough. Yes, there are several ways of getting gear, one of them is this new conquest bar. Yes, there is conquest catchup for it, too.

    My point is that this new conquest bar is completely different from what was called conquest before. And that this new conquest catchup - while it allows filling the new bar more often if you come mid-season or skip a couple of weeks - has a completely different effect from what was called conquest catchup before. It tries to do a similar function but fails, it leaves you undergeared and you are quite likely better off just doing PVE.
    Missing the bigger picture. You will not be *undergeared* in pvp anymore. Right now the rough plan is to scale everyone to the same ilvl. The customization comes from choosing your stats instead of just pumping ilvl at all costs to get that extra 4% damage. The conquest system is not the same sure, but the purpose of it is to take the randomness out of the sets and give people a clear objective to work towards. So you still get the *fun* of the random pieces, but you are guaranteed to complete the set if you work at it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ixirar View Post
    It is available outside of rated play. IIRC at least they datamined conquest rewards from WPVP objectives.
    They said that it will have mechanisms outside of rated play. Most likely like the old system where you got some conquest for the first random BG of the day, etc. I would expect some from the pvp islands and some from warmode stuff, but I would wager most people will get their welfare conquest the same way they always did. Doing 2v2 arena for cap each week with a random person from finder.

  2. #122
    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrean View Post
    https://youtu.be/AUik9-2ygS8?t=2455

    That is where he talks about scaling.

    The scaling was that they want trinkets, etc to be a thing in pvp again but they want to use the outdoor zone level scaling tech and apply it to items. So I might be ilvl 500 but if current pvp scaling is 300 then I have all my gear and stats just scaled down to 300 and everyone else scaled up to 300. So I still get to choose if I want to stack mastery or haste or whatever, but the field is leveled.
    The above is wrong, by the way. Or maybe it's the timestamp that is wrong and points to a similar but different section than the one you wanted.

    What you describe is a cap. What Ion talks about is scaling. With the cap, past certain point everyone is even, they aren't doing that. That's the whole point. (In your example, actually, everyone is even whatever gear he has, they are certainly not doing that, but that's not important, I understand that it's just an example.) They are doing scaling instead. And scaling is bad because (a) you can never catch up, and because (b) PVE becomes unequivocally better as with shared gear, it constantly outpaces PVP in terms of the ilvl (when it doesn't, Blizzard fix it, this cannot be worked around).

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrean View Post
    Missing the bigger picture. You will not be *undergeared* in pvp anymore. Right now the rough plan is to scale everyone to the same ilvl.
    Where specifically did they say that the rough plan is to scale everyone to the same ilvl? All I see is mushy talk about scaling the difference so that there is still some difference, but it is not too large. We had the exact same talk entering Legion. The exact same words and the exact same idea. Yes, tons of players also bought it and thought that this will make things equal bla bla bla. This didn't happen.

    Is there an actual change here that they said they are going to do, with specifics? Because I don't see it so far, all I see is them reiterating what they have already been saying for Legion, and the scarce specifics coincide with what happens now.
    Last edited by rda; 2018-05-23 at 04:13 PM.

  3. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by Oopsmezedya View Post
    Seems that all alliance will be in the 40 man queue cause its easy wins for them because only horde bots are even in them, queue's for WSG will be insane, finally a way for alliance to farm honor even with their trash racials but bad for horde
    There seem to be hype for WPvP in the beta right now but a lot of broken things are in the way of making this happen correctly. I think people want to participate and do stuff but it's not working correctly or something. I don't know about BGs, I don't even understand why anyone would care about BGs either.

  4. #124
    It only takes one group of people to start world pvp wars. Get a group of people and start camping kids as you level, they will return the favor, and the pvp will naturally grow from there. I think the war mode buffs are a great addition. The only thing holding back pvp right now is the stupid design choice of giving every single class in the game 15 gap closers, ccs, and heals. But take that shit away and most of you would cry. But you can't have your cake and eat it too. Pvp wont get better without even more pruning of class utility. Mages should not be able to fucking blink twice, frost nova, sheep, while constantly slowing you and hitting you with insta cast ice lances the entire time while they just jump around like a scrub. Why do warriors have so many gap closers? WHY can rogues fucking heal?

    You give all these classes so much utility and they've lost all identity. You can't juke out a spell like you could back in the pvp days. You juke out one pummel from a warrior, he'll just fucking stun you. Juke out a warrior back in the day, theyll have to get out of range for an intercept stun. In other words, they dumbed it down for the idiots. A warrior sitting in CC all day cuz he has no gap closers isnt balanced either. Thats why maybe he should be paired up with classes that offer dispels and or anti-cc. Except EVERY class has those like what the fuck. Prune the utility of these classes. People don't like the word "prune" but let's be honest, theyre deleting spells left and right, theres no reason some of these classes should have as much utility as they do in PVP situations.

  5. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by Swalload View Post
    There seem to be hype for WPvP in the beta right now but a lot of broken things are in the way of making this happen correctly. I think people want to participate and do stuff but it's not working correctly or something. I don't know about BGs, I don't even understand why anyone would care about BGs either.
    BG's were what was fun for me with pvp (being on pve server). But you're right horde would bot tons to the tune of 50% many times of those that q'd into a bg. That killed bg's for me. I was burnt out on arena. And being on a pve server/pve guild, its damn hard to find rated bg groups in a reasonable amount of time, especially if you aren't a meta class/spec. So.. move on from wow pvp I guess. That's what I did.

    I'm interested in coming back to pvp heal again. No more pve/pvp designated servers, in game communities to help find people to rated bg with, and account prestige has me willing to give it a chance.

    Island expeditions pvp mode could be fun but i'm a bit worried about low mobility classes/specs being disadvantaged there.
    Last edited by chakley; 2018-05-23 at 06:24 PM.

  6. #126
    nerf the fucking monks

  7. #127
    Unless Warmode turns itself off the moment 2+ people attack me, i will only consider it as a Gankmode.

  8. #128
    A few points:

    1. Scaling is dumb. This is a game where you improve your character. If you can't improve your character, there is no reason to play.

    2. PvP toggle is dumb. The whole idea of World PvP is that it's always dangerous. Not that it's only dangerous when you decide it should be.

    Both of these are going to do the following:

    1. Effectively end competitive rated PvP. We've seen this in Legion - the rated PvP participation is lower than it has ever been. It's going to get lower.

    2. Effectively end open world fighting. Nobody, and I mean nobody, will have PvP toggled on after the first few months of the expansion. If you toggle it, the world is going to be just empty.

    This is a soft kill to the PvP part of the game as a whole. If you can't read between the lines, this is what they are saying:

    "We don't want to deal with PvP anymore. We will create a reward system that can scale indefinitely without much intervention, so people can't complain that there are no rewards. We will scale everyone evenly so people can't complain that PvP is unbalanced due to gear. We will also make PvP entirely optional for everyone, so if they don't like something, they again can't complain. This will create a system that can maintain itself over several expansions with basically no intervention from us whatsoever, so we don't have to deal with PvP anymore."

    This is part of the bigger picture, which is that the whole game has this problem - randomization, repetition with little to no changes, etc. All of this is done to reduce development time while creating the illusion of content. They want to pull out resources from this game to their other games, but they don't want the playerbase to know that.
    Last edited by haxartus; 2018-06-01 at 07:18 AM.

  9. #129
    The bounty system seem a lot of fun and I am looking forward to it.

    For the rest it's possibly just as terrible as it always was. It's simply not Blizzards cup of tea.
    Your income seldom exceeds your personal development.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dz2vrNIH9kI

  10. #130
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    Im almost 90% sure that pvp will be even more dead that it is now. Especially since war mode looks like its gonna be massive failure.

  11. #131
    Quote Originally Posted by Marxman View Post
    PvP has been dead in WoW for at least a decade.
    If you can still get a ranked queue at almost any time of day, and a random battleground queue pop at any time of day then PvP is not dead, can people stop being huge dramatics. World PvP on the other hand is at present, definitely buried though.

    Then we have a game like FFXIV, which has a few hundred thousand subs (probably, who knows, SE don't share - they'll only tell us how many people have ever played). Cutoff for top 100 rewards on EU last season wasn't even Diamond, and most of the 100 in it are pretty much the only people who actually queued regularly all season, and that included alts. 20 minute queues as Ranged DPS, some days you don't even get a queue at all. Queueing before 5PM ST or after 11PM? Forget it. Battlegrounds? Lucky to get a game after 11pm on those too. And even that is considered "alive" because PvP was never popular on that game on the first place.
    RIP ArenaJunkies

  12. #132
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaybird View Post
    If you can still get a ranked queue at almost any time of day, and a random battleground queue pop at any time of day then PvP is not dead, can people stop being huge dramatics. World PvP on the other hand is at present, definitely buried though.

    Then we have a game like FFXIV, which has a few hundred thousand subs (probably, who knows, SE don't share - they'll only tell us how many people have ever played). Cutoff for top 100 rewards on EU last season wasn't even Diamond, and most of the 100 in it are pretty much the only people who actually queued regularly all season, and that included alts. 20 minute queues as Ranged DPS, some days you don't even get a queue at all. Queueing before 5PM ST or after 11PM? Forget it. Battlegrounds? Lucky to get a game after 11pm on those too. And even that is considered "alive" because PvP was never popular on that game on the first place.
    FFXIV shouldn't even have PvP development. It's a waste of time, no one plays it, and it barely works.

    I'd argue they shouldn't have a raid game either, considering its almost as bad but I dont think they have the talent to put out an alternative. I mean look at their dungeon system, look at the gear system, look at anything in that mess of a game that isn't the campaign or armor graphics.

    Anyway, WoW PvP is fine and has seen more development in BfA than it ever has before. Hell, Legion PvP actually has absurdly good representation across classes for MMO PvP, so you can tell half of the crying is just from absolute fucking losers who can't break past the entry barrier

    Its like all of the wood leagues in LoL, Overwatch, etc who grit their teeth and cry about how progressing is impossible because they're liquid shit at the game and don't want to admit it. "I-it's my team, i-i-it's class balance". No, you're fucking trash, live with it.

  13. #133
    Quote Originally Posted by BlueRemedy View Post
    FFXIV shouldn't even have PvP development. It's a waste of time, no one plays it, and it barely works.

    I'd argue they shouldn't have a raid game either, considering its almost as bad but I dont think they have the talent to put out an alternative. I mean look at their dungeon system, look at the gear system, look at anything in that mess of a game that isn't the campaign or armor graphics.

    Anyway, WoW PvP is fine and has seen more development in BfA than it ever has before. Hell, Legion PvP actually has absurdly good representation across classes for MMO PvP, so you can tell half of the crying is just from absolute fucking losers who can't break past the entry barrier

    Its like all of the wood leagues in LoL, Overwatch, etc who grit their teeth and cry about how progressing is impossible because they're liquid shit at the game and don't want to admit it. "I-it's my team, i-i-it's class balance". No, you're fucking trash, live with it.
    I mean balance will never be perfect in WoW, like it'll never be in LoL, OW, even DoTA etc. I'm just appreciative of the fact they at least try, but at the same time a lot of the balancing in PvP (especially in WoW/LoL) is based of how people play at a competitive level, hence why when DHs were god awful in LS1 everyone in random BGs and 2s thought they were gods when they were literally the worst melee you could have; so they don't get it.
    RIP ArenaJunkies

  14. #134
    I could make a fairly comprehensive argument that WoW pvp is actually very well balanced currently and that if you are decent at your character you can make a comp work to a high enough level. There will always be some road blocks to certain classes or comps, but that is because at the highest rating there are only a select few to play against and if your comp/class is weak to theirs you will mostly always lose.

    The biggest problem to PvP right now is simply participation. Yeah, there are tons of people playing randoms but that is hardly the place to be able to judge balance or skill and it is definitely skewed currently because the expansion is over and that is something you can do with no one else online on your friends list/guild.

    The biggest problem will always be participation. I like that they have gone back to a conquest system that guarantees you will get a full set of gear if all you do is put in the time, it will bring back certain players. I think that until there is way more cosmetic stuff and way more gear to be had to improve your character you will not see great participation numbers like in wrath or mop. I also think that the introduction of mythic+ dungeons has more or less taken the place of PvP as the way to progress a character without raiding and that probably has more impact than you guys think on the current participation problem.

  15. #135
    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrean View Post
    I could make a fairly comprehensive argument that WoW pvp is actually very well balanced currently and that if you are decent at your character you can make a comp work to a high enough level. There will always be some road blocks to certain classes or comps, but that is because at the highest rating there are only a select few to play against and if your comp/class is weak to theirs you will mostly always lose.
    The problem with this argument is that 3v3 is not the entirety of "WoW PvP". Its not even a remotely significant portion of WoW PvP. It never has been. So 3v3 may be in a great place, but since even in the best season ever the ladder represented less than 20% of people actively PvPing enough to get a full set of CQ gear every season... and in most seasons was more like 10%....

    No, PvP in WoW is not very well balanced, because PvP does not begin and end in 3v3 DETHMATCHBAWKS.

    The biggest problem to PvP right now is simply participation.
    Agreed.

    Yeah, there are tons of people playing randoms
    Nope, there aren't. If people were playing tons of randoms, there would be a shitpile of people with mid-ranks of Prestige. Even from losing. The number of people with even prestige 8 (which is, quite honestly, pathetic, given that it doesn't even represent what would have been getting the 25CQ achievement in a single season) is abysmal - sub 4%. Compared to the number of people who used to get the 25CQ achievement every season at an average of 45%-48%.

    Thats a 90% participation drop, for those following along at home. In freaking RANDOMS. The ladder is even more of a joke. Less than 120k people on the ladder. (Last math i saw was only ~45k people on the Alliance side of the ladder).

    but that is hardly the place to be able to judge balance or skill and it is definitely skewed currently because the expansion is over and that is something you can do with no one else online on your friends list/guild.
    Its the best place to judge balance. Skill be damned. You should never balance around the 5% of people who dont pay the bills. That gets the 95% of people who do to leave. Thats why rated/Arena was a mistake from day 1 and always will be.

    The biggest problem will always be participation.
    Participation literally wasn't a problem ever before. Even in WoD, HALF the end-game population of the entire game was getting a full set of Conquest Gear every season.

    I like that they have gone back to a conquest system that guarantees you will get a full set of gear if all you do is put in the time, it will bring back certain players.
    Only if you can do it without doing rated. Otherwise, it wont matter. The huge majority of those people who got full sets of Conquest every season prior never set one foot into a rated anything. They wont come back if you make them do rated.

    I think that until there is way more cosmetic stuff and way more gear to be had to improve your character you will not see great participation numbers like in wrath or mop.
    Gear that improves your character is the only thing that matters.

    I also think that the introduction of mythic+ dungeons has more or less taken the place of PvP as the way to progress a character without raiding and that probably has more impact than you guys think on the current participation problem.
    Agreed, and i realize you're being general here with the "you guys", but a few of us have been very clear that the ease of which (better) rewards are gained through PvE is what absolutely murdered the shit out of PvP participation in Legion. I can get better gear than if i were 1900 rated by simply walking around Argus collecting treasures and killing rares. As long as that remains remotely true, and/or PvP doesn't at least offer similar rewards (id still do PvP instead of wander around Argus as a simple preference of the type of content i like), then people will not come back.

  16. #136
    You could never balance based on BGs. There is too much going on, people are not aware enough to realize that the reason they can't kill that warrior is because there is a rdruid hotting him up behind the bushes over there.... There are people that are playing solely to stay alive to defend a point until help arrives. There are massive outnumbered fights. It will never be something that can be balanced. I would wager that most of the people that complain about X OP class fight them in a BG and don't realize things like powerups, debuffs (kotmogu), potions, how X OP class works, what help they have from teammates, etc. I ran into a fury warrior last week that wrecked my face 1v1 and I was so surprised by it that I say in the GY reading my combat log. 70% of the damage he did was from an old war potion and a grenade. Most BG players will just think that fury warriors are OP!!!

    When I said it was fairly balanced it is because if you were to put together a 10 man team in RBG you could do it with most any classes as long as the people are good. The current RBG meta is based on what is easiest, not necessarily the best. DH flag carrying is probably the only real problem in RBG. Even the healer meta can work with other classes. So yeah, I think it is fairly balanced and not because of 3v3 but because there is never an absolute best. You run into a team and you never think it is an easy win based on the classes.

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