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  1. #21
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sliske View Post
    Because there is absolutely zero counter play to her combo. Once it starts you cannot stop it. Your only course of action is to hope she doesn't notice you. Maybe at gold/plat you can walk in on Brigettes and just steam roll them, but once you get past diamond or so i imagine they stop letting you get away with murder.

    There is a reason she is being nerfed. There is a reason they nerfed past one shots that had zero counterplay.
    You're still glossing over Widowmaker's one-shots having no counterplay.

    There is counterplay to Brigitte. Not being in melee range is the counterplay. If you mean you can't stop it once it starts, then you're in the same ground as "when I get hooked by Roadhog, I die" territory. The counterplay to Roadhog is not letting yourself get hooked. Same for Brigitte. Don't let yourself get trapped in melee range. If you did, you screwed up.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    The counterplay to Roadhog is not letting yourself get hooked. Same for Brigitte. Don't let yourself get trapped in melee range. If you did, you screwed up.
    And the reason roadhogs hook combo was buried was because there was no counterplay to it. Saying "don't get hooked" is as retarded as saying "just click heads as widowmaker"

    You WILL be hooked. You WILL be combo'd by brigette. That is guaranteed to happen. The thing that needs to be balanced is what happens after the combo starts. Is there any counter play at all? The answer, of course, is no. You were flash banged. You now die. You were hooked. You now die. Both of these were nerfed because of the toxic zero counterplay they added. There was no gameplay for the opponent after they were flash banged.

    This is why the combo is being nerfed and should probably be nerfed further. I don't know why you have such trouble understanding this. You admitted you were gold , so why are you acting like doing impossible feats such as never being hooked or never being combo'd is reasonable?

  3. #23
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sliske View Post
    This is why the combo is being nerfed and should probably be nerfed further. I don't know why you have such trouble understanding this.
    They haven't nerfed it yet; they reduced her stun radius to ensure she was better able to pick her targets, and her ultimate's armor cap. We honestly don't know (that I've seen) what other nerfs are coming.

    And if they do nerf her combo, it's likely to be a change to the animation-canceling aspect, letting you deal 190 damage near-instantly. Instead, you'll deal it over a second or so. Swing, stun, swing, rocket flail as the stun fades, dead. That I wouldn't have an issue with. I do not see the problem. It isn't even a full kill, since it's only 190 damage, and the only hero that kills is Tracer. Complaining about getting "four-shot" is pretty silly, when one-shot heroes still exist.

    You admitted you were gold , so why are you acting like doing impossible feats such as never being hooked or never being combo'd is reasonable?
    I'm not. I'm saying getting yourself into a situation where you can be hit by that is a mistake in the first place, which is WHY you got hooked or comboed.

    And as much as they reduced the lethality of hooking someone and shooting them, hooking them into a pit is still just as lethal as ever, and really, nobody's complaining about that stuff. Or being booped by Lucio off a cliff. Or yanked off by Orisa's alt-fire. There's a LOT of stuff that kills in one shot. So complaining about Brigitte almost killing you in four shots seems silly to me. Yes, I don't like animation canceling. I think it's bad with Genji, too, FWIW. But that's the only real issue I have with Brigitte. That she wrecks Reaper's face when he tries to backdoor the team? That's totally fine.

  4. #24
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    Can't argue with bads Sliske.

    This hero is OP and everybody from all ranges of skill know that. Baguette can duel every single hero in the game, without fear. Nobody wants to get smacked by Rein in the face and thinks ''Oh, this is cool''. Except Baguette. She's worse than Hog. It's tiresome that these low skill heroes have such a huge impact on the game with little to no effort.

    Already mastered her kit after 15 minutes. There's nothing to it.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Sliske View Post
    And the reason roadhogs hook combo was buried was because there was no counterplay to it. Saying "don't get hooked" is as retarded as saying "just click heads as widowmaker"
    Roadhog can still kill in a hook+headshot. McCree can still kill with a flashbang+headshot. I don't know why you're saying these combos were buried, they still very much exist. And as you keep saying, there is zero counter-play to them. Flashbang is a stun in which you can do nothing. Hook is a stun in which you can do nothing. Shieldbash is a stun in which you can do nothing. They all seem the same to me.

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  6. #26
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    I really hope they don't nerf Brigitte to much, the salt she causes in people is one of her best skills.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Sliske View Post
    Because there is absolutely zero counter play to her combo. Once it starts you cannot stop it. Your only course of action is to hope she doesn't notice you. Maybe at gold/plat you can walk in on Brigettes and just steam roll them, but once you get past diamond or so i imagine they stop letting you get away with murder.

    There is a reason she is being nerfed. There is a reason they nerfed past one shots that had zero counterplay.
    Brigette is getting her stun cooldown increased from 5 seconds to 6. Anna is getting 14 ammo on her rifle to increase healing uptime on ptr.

    Frankly Rhein needs a buff, since he doesn’t have a R reload they could give him the ability to activate to ignore the next stun.
    If you push a button that finds you a 'random group' and it gives you a random group of people with random skill and random knowledge then you have no right to complain that a 'random group' button did what it was designed to do. The fault lies in your inability to make friends to play with instead of relying on a button designed to be random. It is a 'random group' button, not a 'best of the best' button.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by NightZero88 View Post
    Roadhog can still kill in a hook+headshot. McCree can still kill with a flashbang+headshot. I don't know why you're saying these combos were buried, they still very much exist. And as you keep saying, there is zero counter-play to them. Flashbang is a stun in which you can do nothing. Hook is a stun in which you can do nothing. Shieldbash is a stun in which you can do nothing. They all seem the same to me.
    Roadhog can still kill in a hook+headshot.
    Except it's not guaranteed anymore due to the damage nerf on his gun, even now you actually have to put in damage on your target beforehand if you intend to oneshot them with the hook because of your spread.

    McCree can still kill with a flashbang+headshot.
    Yeah he can, but he still has to headshot twice and actually aim for it. Before you simply had to flashbang and hold down FTH in their general direction, they nerfed that, FOTM players stopped playing him because it wasn't easy kills anymore.

    Hook is a stun in which you can do nothing
    You can survive it, hell you can even LoS it now. Seems like you can do something now.

    Shieldbash is a stun in which you can do nothing.
    Exactly. Not only does baguette render heroes like Winston and D.va shit tier, she can also oneshot pretty much anyone who isn't a tank, as a support. She doesn't have the glass cannon approach as Zenyatta but is still allowed to bring a nuke into combat, that is bullshit.

    Then we factor in the other retarded aspect of her ultimate not dissipating after a certain amount of time which means in the next fight, you'll be in a disadvantage aswell. The powerscale of her ultimate is ridiculous and makes the entire team snowball in 2 TF's which funnels even more Ultimate's on your team which then snowballs you even further, you get the drift.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Theprejudice View Post
    Except it's not guaranteed anymore due to the damage nerf on his gun, even now you actually have to put in damage on your target beforehand if you intend to oneshot them with the hook because of your spread.


    Yeah he can, but he still has to headshot twice and actually aim for it. Before you simply had to flashbang and hold down FTH in their general direction, they nerfed that, FOTM players stopped playing him because it wasn't easy kills anymore.


    You can survive it, hell you can even LoS it now. Seems like you can do something now.


    Exactly. Not only does baguette render heroes like Winston and D.va shit tier, she can also oneshot pretty much anyone who isn't a tank, as a support. She doesn't have the glass cannon approach as Zenyatta but is still allowed to bring a nuke into combat, that is bullshit.

    Then we factor in the other retarded aspect of her ultimate not dissipating after a certain amount of time which means in the next fight, you'll be in a disadvantage aswell. The powerscale of her ultimate is ridiculous and makes the entire team snowball in 2 TF's which funnels even more Ultimate's on your team which then snowballs you even further, you get the drift.
    Not only that but consider this...

    Your team surges forward, she ults for 150 armor and before you die you do some damage to remove some armor but her ult keeps bringing the armor to 150. Next time your team comes in everyone has 150 armor. Then the third time you come in she Ults again.

    That is not even considering any other ults like zen/lucio/sym shield generator or torb packs.
    If you push a button that finds you a 'random group' and it gives you a random group of people with random skill and random knowledge then you have no right to complain that a 'random group' button did what it was designed to do. The fault lies in your inability to make friends to play with instead of relying on a button designed to be random. It is a 'random group' button, not a 'best of the best' button.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking View Post
    Not only that but consider this...

    Your team surges forward, she ults for 150 armor and before you die you do some damage to remove some armor but her ult keeps bringing the armor to 150. Next time your team comes in everyone has 150 armor. Then the third time you come in she Ults again.

    That is not even considering any other ults like zen/lucio/sym shield generator or torb packs.
    But atleast her ultimates stacks to only 100 armor now instead of 150 on the PTR. Sadly it won't change much.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Theprejudice View Post
    But atleast her ultimates stacks to only 100 armor now instead of 150 on the PTR. Sadly it won't change much.
    It also caps, so if you get 100 and take damage during the ult you slowly get armor but you will not go back to 100. You will only go to 100 - the armor damage you took during the ult.

    And as I stated, Blizz really ham fisted their bung holes on this one because she was held out of comp to get this squared away to not affect comp until she was ready and so people were not learning her in comp. now they realized they fucked up 2 months later and people are using comp to learn Hanzo’s new build.

    - - - Updated - - -

    For me the best answer for brig is Hanzo. I fuck her shit up any time I see her. Arrow, 6 shots into her shield, arrow and her head explodes. I became such a problem that she used shield bash to jump a gap to get over us on gibralter when you go under the path with the payload and I saw her through the floor with sonic arrow. I allowed her to chase me back to my spawn because she was not helping her team. I used leap to pull back and she used shield bash to advance and mace me and kill me but she lost the point and I learned I should of kept back and climbed to safety. Die and learn.
    Last edited by DeadmanWalking; 2018-05-04 at 05:14 PM.
    If you push a button that finds you a 'random group' and it gives you a random group of people with random skill and random knowledge then you have no right to complain that a 'random group' button did what it was designed to do. The fault lies in your inability to make friends to play with instead of relying on a button designed to be random. It is a 'random group' button, not a 'best of the best' button.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Theprejudice View Post
    Except it's not guaranteed anymore due to the damage nerf on his gun, even now you actually have to put in damage on your target beforehand if you intend to oneshot them with the hook because of your spread.
    Just looked this up, looks like only about 160 damage on average unless you hit with all the scrap gun shots, then it is a kill at 210 damage.

    Note: I just played QP and I got comboed by Hog twice in a hook+shot+melee that brought me from full to dead as Moira. I know I was at full because I was running back in from respawn. He also did it to a Sombra. It happens fairly frequently to me and has no counter-play.

    Quote Originally Posted by Theprejudice View Post
    Yeah he can, but he still has to headshot twice and actually aim for it. Before you simply had to flashbang and hold down FTH in their general direction, they nerfed that, FOTM players stopped playing him because it wasn't easy kills anymore.
    Yes, it does require two headshots but fan the hammer still works, you just need to be closer.


    Quote Originally Posted by Theprejudice View Post
    You can survive it, hell you can even LoS it now. Seems like you can do something now.
    And you can just not stand near Brig. Seems like you can do something too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Theprejudice View Post
    Exactly. Not only does baguette render heroes like Winston and D.va shit tier, she can also oneshot pretty much anyone who isn't a tank, as a support. She doesn't have the glass cannon approach as Zenyatta but is still allowed to bring a nuke into combat, that is bullshit.
    If you're by yourself and get 1v1 by a Brig that is your own fault. Brig has to literally be in your front line to kill someone and she has no escape potential. If she charges in trying to combo someone the rest of your team can obliterate her as she has no defense while it's happening. And if you get focused by 3+ people, you're not staying alive even with another healer trying to keep you up. Yes, Brig will win 1v1 against a Winston and a Dva but this is not a 1v1 game. Stop being by yourself. It seems like your standard play style is dive and Brig counters that and so it is OP.

    Quote Originally Posted by Theprejudice View Post
    Then we factor in the other retarded aspect of her ultimate not dissipating after a certain amount of time which means in the next fight, you'll be in a disadvantage aswell. The powerscale of her ultimate is ridiculous and makes the entire team snowball in 2 TF's which funnels even more Ultimate's on your team which then snowballs you even further, you get the drift.
    I will agree with the ult needing to disappear after a certain time.
    Last edited by NightZero88; 2018-05-04 at 09:45 PM.

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  13. #33
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    Coming back after a break, I found Moira to be much more of an outlier. In many, if not most cases, I have the team on my back, not only with very high healing, but also very high damage. Also I can eliminate those pesky heroes that are difficult to hit if you have to aim. The orb basically makes D.va a mandatory counter pick, or that bouncy orb is going to murder the enemy team long before the fight begins. The fade is an incredibly low cooldown, and she can even heal herself in many ways, not counting Shift making it easy to beeline for health packs.

    I guess I wouldn't be surprised if the E and the Shift are adjusted to be easier to counter, though to be fair, I'm all for buffing other supports to be as fun as Moira is.

    Brigitte by comparison, felt more like a 2nd healer, her potential fully unlocked if she has a healer behind her, which can make her do proper Lucio numbers. Unlike Moira, I can't really heal myself, so I got to be careful, to trade. She felt much trickier to master compared to Moira. Very interesting and fun in her own way, though.

    Animation cancels are a bitch. I think what Blizz aimed for was good responsiveness for defensive abilities, like how Rein's Barrier also cancels out of melee attacks. With Brig it's a problem, though, because it anim-cancels into an offensive ability that stuns. I'd be all for Melee Swing and the bash having some shared, common cooldown, so you can't swing-bash-swing just like that.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Diezel View Post
    Coming back after a break, I found Moira to be much more of an outlier. In many, if not most cases, I have the team on my back, not only with very high healing, but also very high damage. Also I can eliminate those pesky heroes that are difficult to hit if you have to aim. The orb basically makes D.va a mandatory counter pick, or that bouncy orb is going to murder the enemy team long before the fight begins. The fade is an incredibly low cooldown, and she can even heal herself in many ways, not counting Shift making it easy to beeline for health packs.

    I guess I wouldn't be surprised if the E and the Shift are adjusted to be easier to counter, though to be fair, I'm all for buffing other supports to be as fun as Moira is.

    Brigitte by comparison, felt more like a 2nd healer, her potential fully unlocked if she has a healer behind her, which can make her do proper Lucio numbers. Unlike Moira, I can't really heal myself, so I got to be careful, to trade. She felt much trickier to master compared to Moira. Very interesting and fun in her own way, though.

    Animation cancels are a bitch. I think what Blizz aimed for was good responsiveness for defensive abilities, like how Rein's Barrier also cancels out of melee attacks. With Brig it's a problem, though, because it anim-cancels into an offensive ability that stuns. I'd be all for Melee Swing and the bash having some shared, common cooldown, so you can't swing-bash-swing just like that.
    If cant combo like that then there is no point in trying to kill a tracer, tracer doesn't take some damage and back off, tracer just keeps coming. Thats the point, make her change toons to be effective.

    There are lots of combos in the game that do the same thing and combos should be rewarded.
    If you push a button that finds you a 'random group' and it gives you a random group of people with random skill and random knowledge then you have no right to complain that a 'random group' button did what it was designed to do. The fault lies in your inability to make friends to play with instead of relying on a button designed to be random. It is a 'random group' button, not a 'best of the best' button.

  15. #35
    My biggest issue with Brigitte is that she's making a lot of weaker heroes seem even worse, mostly McCree and Rein, both already felt awful to play and it's worse now, especially Rein who just needs a CC reduction while holding RMB or something at this point.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Woobels View Post
    My biggest issue with Brigitte is that she's making a lot of weaker heroes seem even worse, mostly McCree and Rein, both already felt awful to play and it's worse now, especially Rein who just needs a CC reduction while holding RMB or something at this point.
    His reload button is free, give him an ability to ignore a cc or in the least do what the heavy gunner in retribution does, if he gets shield bashed with shield up he swats her away.
    If you push a button that finds you a 'random group' and it gives you a random group of people with random skill and random knowledge then you have no right to complain that a 'random group' button did what it was designed to do. The fault lies in your inability to make friends to play with instead of relying on a button designed to be random. It is a 'random group' button, not a 'best of the best' button.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    You're still glossing over Widowmaker's one-shots having no counterplay.

    There is counterplay to Brigitte. Not being in melee range is the counterplay. If you mean you can't stop it once it starts, then you're in the same ground as "when I get hooked by Roadhog, I die" territory. The counterplay to Roadhog is not letting yourself get hooked. Same for Brigitte. Don't let yourself get trapped in melee range. If you did, you screwed up.
    I think the main point people feel is that a dps being able to delete you in a sec is more justifiable because that's their role. A tank doing not as much, but some exceptions like hook make sense. The biggest problem most have is that a support character shouldn't be able to delete you in a second or two at all. Being able to delete people and heal them for a good chunk in one sec while shielding is a bit more bad. If she was a dps or maybe even a defense hero people would feel slightly, not much, better about it. Getting deleted by a support in a second isn't fun at all. Even if you don't come around a corner or anything all it takes it for her to turn around look at you and you go down immediately.

  18. #38
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucetia View Post
    I think the main point people feel is that a dps being able to delete you in a sec is more justifiable because that's their role. A tank doing not as much, but some exceptions like hook make sense. The biggest problem most have is that a support character shouldn't be able to delete you in a second or two at all. Being able to delete people and heal them for a good chunk in one sec while shielding is a bit more bad. If she was a dps or maybe even a defense hero people would feel slightly, not much, better about it. Getting deleted by a support in a second isn't fun at all. Even if you don't come around a corner or anything all it takes it for her to turn around look at you and you go down immediately.
    I just don't agree with that at all. Zen is the obvious counter-argument; not only can he right-click for a near-instagib on most heroes (with great aim), with Discord and decent aim, he can pretty easily destroy a lot of DPS heroes in a firefight situation. Lucio's boop is notorious for knocking people into pits. If you're getting upset because a support handed you your butt on a plate, then I'd argue you're approaching this the wrong way from the very beginning. Picking a DPS hero should not mean you can 1v1 any other hero and win. If that were the case, we'd play 6v6 DPS, because healers and tanks would be "worse". They all approach the same goal, in different ways. And Brigitte is definitely a support; her stun is mostly useful for things like dropping an enemy Rein's shield or interrupting an ultimate, and most of her kit is based around healing.

    Her mace has a tiny range. 6 meters. Rocket flail's a bit longer. And there are plenty of heroes whose attacks get around her shield in some way or another. If you're playing a dive comp and dive into a bunker comp with a Brigitte, yeah, you're gonna have a bad time. That's because you're getting outplayed. Instead of whining that Rock needs nerfing because your Scissors isn't working any more, try Paper. There's a big shift in the meta, but that's the point.

    She's going to be a lynchpin hero, like Pharah. If she's not countered, your team will likely struggle. The difference is that I see Brigitte having way more effective counters than Pharah does.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    I just don't agree with that at all. Zen is the obvious counter-argument; not only can he right-click for a near-instagib on most heroes (with great aim), with Discord and decent aim, he can pretty easily destroy a lot of DPS heroes in a firefight situation.
    Single orbs don't do much and you can avoid. A fully charged one hurts, but takes about 5+ seconds to charge up. Plenty of time to do something about it. So Zen can kill people but needs time. It's not near instant like Brigitte's can be.

    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Lucio's boop is notorious for knocking people into pits.
    Booping isn't the same as actually dps'ing though. That's situational awareness of not being near open holes ever.

    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    If you're getting upset because a support handed you your butt on a plate, then I'd argue you're approaching this the wrong way from the very beginning.
    The thing is no support should be able to 100 to 0 you in <2 seconds. Brigitte is stun, slap slap done whereas Zen is charge while vulnerable and Lucio relies on environment. While Moira is frustrating even she takes time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Picking a DPS hero should not mean you can 1v1 any other hero and win. If that were the case, we'd play 6v6 DPS, because healers and tanks would be "worse". They all approach the same goal, in different ways.
    No one said that. I said it's more plausible for a dps to 100 to 0 someone rather than a support. There's a difference.

    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    And Brigitte is definitely a support; her stun is mostly useful for things like dropping an enemy Rein's shield or interrupting an ultimate, and most of her kit is based around healing.
    Not really considering she doesn't even have to heal and still make a drastic difference on the team.

    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Her mace has a tiny range. 6 meters. Rocket flail's a bit longer. And there are plenty of heroes whose attacks get around her shield in some way or another. If you're playing a dive comp and dive into a bunker comp with a Brigitte, yeah, you're gonna have a bad time. That's because you're getting outplayed.
    Wait until you play against the newest version of Brigitte that I've been playing against where you have two snipers in the back ground, another tank blocking Brigitte and an Ana/Mercy healing. You try to go take out Brigitte a sniper gets you. You try to get the sniper then Brigitte gets you. Had that situation earlier tonight and no matter what we were running it was pretty nigh impossible to get around. Only way we got through were some cheeky ults.

    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Instead of whining that Rock needs nerfing because your Scissors isn't working any more, try Paper. There's a big shift in the meta, but that's the point.

    She's going to be a lynchpin hero, like Pharah. If she's not countered, your team will likely struggle. The difference is that I see Brigitte having way more effective counters than Pharah does.
    Though from reading how you are describing her I don't think you've really played against her much or at all. I've played various ranks of Brigitte and the difference isn't that much because of how she's built. You can deny it all you want but she needs some slight adjustments. This is coming from someone's who has played her for a decent amount of time and know's that even playing as her she's a bit stronger than she needs to be.


    • Her melee whip needs reduced from 35 to about 30 while reducing range from 6 meters to 5 meters to match Rein's.
    • Whipshot from 70 to 65
    • Shield bash increased from 5 seconds to 8 or 10 seconds (to match McCree's Flashbang). If it's going to stay low it should have it's damage reduced from 50 to 35 (even McCree's Flashbang is on 10 seconds and does 25).

    The ultimate is already being adjusted so we'll see how that goes. Not even Lucio's is that strong plus his is absorb which doesn't reduce damage like Brigitte's armor buff does. Also, oddly enough a lot of Brigitte's abilities do about twice as much damage as some of the melee's too depending on range.

    If they are really to keep her like that then it's fine, but then they need to start buffing everyone else up and make them more viable since power creep is starting to sit in on some heroes and you can feel it. Some heroes you feel like launch where it took more than a few shots to kill someone and wasn't "quick paced" now it's starting to feel like in a few heroes we'll be into "every one has a 1 shot + stun ability"
    Last edited by Lucetia; 2018-05-05 at 08:15 AM.

  20. #40
    I like Brigitte a lot, partly because she's decent at dealing with those thin, jumpy heroes that are a pain to handle. But it doesn't take a skilled player to see that she's too strong right now. She definitely needs some slight nerfs.

    Also, I wish Blizzard would stop promoting unhealthy and unfun gameplay. It feels like Widow/Hanzo are in every single game right now, and I hate it so much. Especially since people are so bad at dealing with them, and they even made Hanzo more annoying than before, too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lucetia View Post
    • Her melee whip needs reduced from 35 to about 30 while reducing range from 6 meters to 5 meters to match Rein's.
    • Whipshot from 70 to 65
    • Shield bash increased from 5 seconds to 8 or 10 seconds (to match McCree's Flashbang). If it's going to stay low it should have it's damage reduced from 50 to 35 (even McCree's Flashbang is on 10 seconds and does 25).
    Sounds fair to me. Heck, they could even nerf the Whipshot more. It doesn't really need to do a lot of damage, especially considering it's utility and range.

    Another change I'd like though, not as a nerf, but as an adjustment, is to change her heal to make it less clunky to use. It really doesn't feel like it fits into her kit, and why would she need such an absurbly long range on it? It would be better to change it into something short-range where she doesn't need to aim it at the right target.

    That's just my opinion, though.

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