It's time We Neuter Evasion And Cloak of Shadows In Rated PvP

[mario710]

To be able to completely mitigate all spell damage in a rated Player Versus Player scenario followed by rendering yourself untouchable by any physical assaults made against you is asinine. As this class stands, it is worse than Frost DK's and Demon Hunters combined. Demon Hunter's can Nether Walk - but at the cost of a talent slot. Death Knights can can take a stronger Anti Magic Shell - but at the cost of pressure from Inexorable Assault.

This class lacks equivalence. Nerf it.

[Raugnaut]

Lets lay out the actual spells and abilities that a Rogue has to survive in PvP situations, yea?

Major-
Cloak of Shadow - 90 second CD, 5 seconds of anti-magic. 5% overall uptime.
Evasion - 120 second CD, 10 seconds of 100% dodge. 8% overall uptime.
Crimson Vial - 30 second CD, 30% health heal as a dot. 1% health/second overall.
Minor - CCs, in the form of Blind (120 second CD), Cheap Shot (Requires Stealth, 4 second stun), Kidney Shot (Requires combo points, up to 6 seconds, 20 second CD), Feint (Reduces AoE, 50% effect, costs 35 energy).
Talents - All 3 specs have Cheat Death (One time death save, and 85% damage reduction for 3 seconds), Elusiveness (Feint also reduces damage taken by 30%), as well as a healing option (Combat gets 9% extra health from Crimson Vial, Assassin gets 12% leech, and Sub gets 1% health/second while stealthed or shadow dance).
PvP talents - 100% dodge for 2 seconds after leaving stealth. Smoke Bomb for anti-range for Sub. Combat gets a tier dedicated to reducing enemy damage/increasing their own survivability. Assassin doesn't really get any strong defensive PvP talents that nobody else has...

So, equivalents...
Cloak of Shadow - DKs get AMS, as well as a PvP talent tier dedicated to anti-magic.. Demon Hunters have a PvP talent tier dedicated to anti-magic capabilities. Equivalent.
Evasion - Demon Hunters get Blur. DKs get Plate armor, which results in ~20-35% overall less physical damage taken compared to rogues. Equivalent.
Crimson Vial - DKs have Death Strike to convert damage into ~10% health. In addition, Unholy gets the equivalent healing (1%/second) from their weapon enchantment which DOES work in PvP. Frost gets the option to burst heal during their Ice Bound fortitude. Both DKs and DHs get a large amount of instant free healing upon landing a killing blow
Minor - In terms of Stuns, DKs also get a stun that does NOT cost them damage (Whereas Rogue's stuns/silences do). Demon Hunters do have to sacrifice damage for their stun, but not as much as what Rogues do (Combo Points+Energy). Demon Hunters also get damage added to their mobility toolkits and their interupt. DKs get Grip. There isn't much an equivalent for vanish, but eh.
Talents - There is no equivalent for Elusiveness - DKs and Demon Hunters can't sacrifice damage for toughness. There is also no equivalent for Cheat Death. Both DKs and Havoc have an equivalent for the increased self healing.
PvP talents - Rogue PvP talents are primarily oriented towards damage, with only a few defensive PvP talents. DKs and DHs have multiple defensive oriented PvP talents. DHs even have 2 tiers for such things.

[Kikazz]

To be able to completely mitigate all spell damage in a rated Player Versus Player scenario followed by rendering yourself untouchable by any physical assaults made against you is asinine. As this class stands, it is worse than Frost DK's and Demon Hunters combined. Demon Hunter's can Nether Walk - but at the cost of a talent slot. Death Knights can can take a stronger Anti Magic Shell - but at the cost of pressure from Inexorable Assault.

This class lacks equivalence. Nerf it.

seems like you got jaded by a rogue in Rated and think they should be nerfed.

other classes are more OP than rogues at current,

Cloak lasts 5 seconds.... Evasion is 8? seconds?

thats 13 seconds of 100% immunity,

while we are at it,

stop pallies from using bubble in rated as well please, 100% immunity from anything, coupled with a Hand of freedom after, and a death proc shield.. OP....

see what im getting at?

most classes have their niche this is rogues.

[Kazdum]

Asking for specific skills to be nerfed? What year is this?? 2011?

[Sencha]

That's the problem of today's WoW. Too many immunities. They should be removed for all specs. As well as self-healing for non-healing specs and increase HP pool so that people don't get 3-shot.

[Deleted]

Complaining about cloak of shadows. It feel like it's 2007 all over again!

Also evasion doesn't make you "untouchable by any physical assault", you can still be hit from behind.

[LoLcano]

Someone got his ass handed to him by rogue and is mad enough to create new account here and rant .

[Eazy]

It's time to learn how to counter rogues.

[Dziubla]

Remove rogues immunities, you might as well remove rogues. Without those two spells, we're instantly dead the moment someone even LOOKS our way. If you honestly believe that rogues are op, then...well, I have some bad news for you. Seems like l2p issues.

[Ragnarohk]

That's the problem of today's WoW. Too many immunities. They should be removed for all specs. As well as self-healing for non-healing specs and increase HP pool so that people don't get 3-shot.

Instead of increasing HP they can easily scale down damage and healing done to counter what you propose.
As for immunities and healing done by non-healing classes, they're mostly fine. The OP specs (self sustainable wise) are getting nerfed in BfA, blood DK is one iirc. Besides, rogues are getting survivability nerfs (cloak has a longer CD, crimson vial on the GCD, feint's damage reduction was reduced and it has a CD now)

[docterfreeze]

Every class has CC that goes through evasion. As for cloak, there used to be ways to counterplay it but thanks to pruning the options are limited. Unprune and we'll be fine.

[Deleted]

For a supposedly squishy class, Rogues have way too many defensives.

For the people saying "oh but DKs have plate armour", remember that evasion can also dodge CC which plate armour can't.

[Saverem]

So, equivalents...
Cloak of Shadow - DKs get AMS, as well as a PvP talent tier dedicated to anti-magic.. Demon Hunters have a PvP talent tier dedicated to anti-magic capabilities. Equivalent.
Evasion - Demon Hunters get Blur. DKs get Plate armor, which results in ~20-35% overall less physical damage taken compared to rogues. Equivalent.
Crimson Vial - DKs have Death Strike to convert damage into ~10% health. In addition, Unholy gets the equivalent healing (1%/second) from their weapon enchantment which DOES work in PvP.

Those are some pretty weak comparisons:

- AMS has a cap, 50% of HP. They should add the same to CloS. It's dumb that they can absorb an infinite amount of damage for 5 seconds.

- Blur is 50%, not 100%.

- DS requires target to be hit and costs A LOT of resources. It can also be dodged/parried/evasioned/etc Where as Crimson Vial can be used anywhere and through the safety of stealth.


Edit: Just a disclaimer, I am actually completely fine with the way Crimson Vial works. Have no beef against it. Only thing I think they should do is nerf CloS and Evasion a bit. Make Evasion only last 5 seconds (10s duration every 2min is just retarded) and give CloS a cap of like 100% HP worth of absorption. BOOM! Fixed.

[Axaion]

its time to neuter healing because healers can heal and healing makes me have to do stuff and such

its time to neuter hp because me having to do stuff is bothersome to me and im not very good

its time to neuter something i dont like because of reasons

[Deleted]

Asking for specific skills to be nerfed? What year is this?? 2005?

Fixed that for you.

[Danvash]

Speaking as a warlock main, rogues aren't overpowered or even difficult to deal with in instanced PvP with the templates active. It's only out on the world where they are constantly hitting for millions while you are stunlocked that they are an issue.

Most of the danger of a rogue comes from what their partners can do to you while you are cced. If you just cc them during their vendetta/shadowblades, you nerf their damage by a lot. And if they cloak to prevent your cc, well, there's your ticket to kick their face in once the cloak drops. Because rogues are extremely squishy outside of their defensive cooldowns. They have to run away and hide if they start to get focused and you are on stun DR. A couple short duration immunities are no big deal.

[Kuntantee]

It's time you get good.

[FecundDecay]

That's the problem of today's WoW. Too many immunities. They should be removed for all specs. As well as self-healing for non-healing specs and increase HP pool so that people don't get 3-shot.

Not sure why it's a problem for people to go immune - but it's fine for a bunch of melee to stack their stuns and silences to the point at which casters can't get a single fucking spell off before we're dead. They took all the disarms out of the game because it was "unfair to melee," but I can't think of a single melee spec that doesn't have at least one way to silence and/or stun people.

Why is that any different on a fundamental level?

Both are "victory" achieved singularly by making it impossible for your opponent to play or respond to being attacked.
Both are basically just forcing said opponent to sit with their thumb up their ass waiting to die.

Until this game actually addresses the imbalance in melee having all instant-cast abilities with low cool-downs, and casters being stuck standing around using long cast-time abilities that open us up to being interrupted and locked out, then complaining about immunity abilities is just pointless. Anyone reliant on cast times is already at such a major disadvantage in PvP that it's not even worth singling out specific class or spec abilities like this thread is trying to do.

Even without Cloak of Shadow, a well-played rogue should be able to keep any spell-caster from doing much of anything simply by kicking, vanishing, and stunning their opponent every time they attempt to get anything more than an instant cast off. They could flat-out REMOVE Cloak of Shadows and in the long-run it would be little more than a drop in the bucket towards resolving the real problem with PvP right now.

CC is out of fucking control, and it has been since late TBC / early WotLK.
CC needs to break on damage. Period.
Casters should either
a) Be able to move while casting, or b) not have to worry about interrupts.

Then we can discuss individual abilities.

[telygroar]

dk and dh dont need stealth as part as their template damage, who cant be used when you have a fucking magic dot who do even 1 damage every second.

[BlueRemedy]

Rogues aren't supposed to be par with other classes in terms of defenses, mobility and single target pressure. That is their thing, they assassinate. They can't brawl. If you took down their control kit, you'd have to basically turn them into a second Demon Hunter and Christ would that be boring.

"B-but open world!"

Turn off War Mode then, otherwise welcome to World of Warcraft, Rogues ganking oblivious solo players has been here for 14 years.