Nerf Retribution Paladins in pvp

[Deleted]

They complain a lot about GCD change tho, kekeke. Justice is served

Justice is served indeed muahaha

[Kalisandra]

Although 2 charges of steed is nice, Freedom can be spellstolen (which is every single time it`s up if a mage is nearby), protection doesnt do shit against casters (which is what kites you, usually) Our only stun can be trinketed, blinked, and hindrance can do fuck all if you being slowed at range with no gap closer

Also, unlike a Warrior's stun, or a Monk's, or a Rogue's, our stun is magical, and thus will be cleansed off by the healer if we don't stun the healer. This is a major limitation. The same goes for our snare, and as Hand of Hindrance has a long CD, once it's dispelled, we're in trouble.

- - - Updated - - -

You pop a BoF and you rarely see it up for more than 2 seconds

Not at all - I routinely see HoF up for it's full duration - spinning under the other team's mage. At least they can't steal wings any more.

Earlier in Legion I did a fair bit of 2v2, (at the 1500-1600 level, 'cause I'm old and lazy) and my pvp partner and I gave up on Ret + anything, and swapped to Holy + whatever he had. Sure, Ret + DPS could utterly disintegrate an enemy if we got to get some burst on them, but it was really unreliable because Ret's so bad at getting quality up-time on anything that doesn't want to be in reach.

[rulk]

Complaining that a terrible mobility melee has multiple options to gap close, reduce enemy movement, but doesn include BoF? Rip.

[Ulthane]

Either elaborate troll or ignorance.

Ret has very strong counters in PvP right now that can utterly obliterate it

Tanks
-Guardian
-Blood (ESPECIALLY BLOOD)

Dps
-Assassin (....super stupid)
-Sub (Not as stupid as assassin but can be)
-Literally any mages who get the jump on you
-Affliction (if you are not careful, i dont exactly have a hard time against this as I thought I would have)
-Windwalker (If you are stupid during Karma but a good Windwalker is hell)
-Demon Hunter (The burst followed by run run run away mobility can cause problems easily)
-Feral (Used to be broken as hell, not so much anymore.)
-Shadow (Used to be a major problem, dont see it so much any more. A good shadow priest can cause issues)

Healers
-ALL OF THEM

I might be missing a few things, but usually we are at a disadvantage in these situations, we get kited and the only time we can do relatively well is when in wpve we have 2/4 pc tier and even then. So this situation here with the OP is really an elaborate troll or they are undergeared or they need to play better.

[CaRaDaGaiTa]

The poster should be banned from internet.

[lummiuster]

Hello everyone.
Over the course of this Addon I had the honor to fight several retribution Paladins as a very ambitiously pvp player. I am playing a Furry Warrior and compared to them they always had a counter to my attacks in their toolkit.
Nevertheless I want to talk about different abilities and why they should be nerfed.

1. Hammer of Justice. It has a 60 seconds cooldown and stuns for 6 seconds. First of all, 6 seconds? Really? It has a 60 seconds cooldown, I give you that, but the Talent Fist of Justice makes it to a 30 seconds stun anyway, so retribution paladins have a 6 seconds stun with a cooldown around 30-45 seconds. Most classes have a stun for 4 or 5 seconds and their cooldown is also around 30-50 seconds. Please reduce the duration or nerf Fist of Justice.

2. Hand of Hindrance. This must be a complete joke right? 70% slow for 10 Seconds and a 30 seconds cooldown. This should definitely be nerfed to around 50% slow.

3. Divine Steed. I like this ability, it looks cool. I even think that it is "okay". I mean 100% speed bonus for 3 seconds is still pretty much op for melees. But most paladins I have seen in Battlegrounds use the talent Cavalier which gives you another charge for divine steed.

So you can use your divine steed two times, which is a 100% speed bonus for 6 seconds PLUS the Hand of Hindrance which slows you for 70% for 10 seconds. That. Is. Freakin. Overpowered. You have low to zero chance at all to effectively kite a retribution paladin. Now there are a some classes with a few spells of disengaging like Monks, arcane mages or Hunters. Still, compared to other melee classes retribution paladin - again - has too much utility. Warriors have charge and need to choose between a stun or a second charge of... charge. I don't even want to start talking about death knights.

4. Forbearance. You heard right, no hate about divine shield or lay on hands. They are okay (and somewhere even iconic for this class). Forbearance has a 30 second cooldown which is too low. In good situations a paladin is able to cast Lay on Hans AND Divine shield in one fight. I think paladins should decide wether to use Lay on Hands or Divine Shield and punish them if they chose for the wrong spell. Forbearance should be raised to one minute (in pvp).

5. retribution, when a nearby raidmember dies the paladin deals 20% increased damage and takes 30% reduced damage. Wtf?

As you can see retribution paladin feels pretty much too overtuned and overloaded. I didn't even talk about artifact traits. This madness needs to stop. I get it that paladin is a cool looking class with fancy light and they are the good guys and retribution and justice and stuff. But stop mary sue'ing this class in pvp.
What do you guys think? Does Retribution paladin need a nerf? What would you change? Please keep the discussion respectable.

Note that all the changes I suggested should inflict the paladin playstyle in PVP.

As a fury warrior you have the most mobility in the game. Spec with 2charges and 3bounce with 15sec cd reduction on it. You will become a flag carrier nightmare and a rogue base sitter nightmare (as soon as you see him somewhere else, you can jump to his base in less than 10sec).
Other than that, yes paladin stun should be nerfed. 6sec stun should never be in the game. 3sec should be max stun duration imo.

[kran1um]

You mean there are ret pallys in WOW pvp now? I thought they were extinct since BC.

[Deleted]

As a fury warrior you have the most mobility in the game. Spec with 2charges and 3bounce with 15sec cd reduction on it. You will become a flag carrier nightmare and a rogue base sitter nightmare (as soon as you see him somewhere else, you can jump to his base in less than 10sec).
Other than that, yes paladin stun should be nerfed. 6sec stun should never be in the game. 3sec should be max stun duration imo.

Thats true but you normally dont skill Barbarian. Most guides recommend Battle Trance or Thirst for Battle (first one is the go-to talent for survivability, it heals you for 9% health over 12 seconds after hitting one target with raging blow twice) so there is a much bigger tradeoff, while two charges of divine steed for paladins are pretty much base talents.

[Morally Grey Storm]

you realise if you don't get baited into wasting cds when they bubble and kite them when they pop crusade you've won right? Paladins are easy to beat for most classes, other than maybe DK

you realise that Crusade is not a PvP talent at all and you are incompetent as far as pvp goes due to being a Dragonslayer, right?

[Softbottom]

I literally only logged in to this ancient old account, that i haven't used in a long time.. Just to tell you to shut the fuck up..

lol fucking rekt

[Morally Grey Storm]

wings then whatever, you're being pedantic over the name of the spell? Grow up, it's exactly the same principle.

No.
Avenging Wrath and Crusade are entirely different and if you don't see the reason why Crusade isn't taken in arena than you're indeed completely incompetent or flatout trolling.

Oh and you're not even correct, plenty of rets use crusade in arena.

Below 1500? Maybe.
Who cares and why should it matter.

[lolskillzz]

a fury warrior, hell a warrior in general complaining about ret paladin dmg haha. I don't even main ret and think your wrong.

I do agree rets damage is a little overtuned, but not nearly as bad as warriors (Both specs). Ret is very immobile and really only has bubble.

Wpvp is a different beast.

[Ermelloth]

Give Emancipate and LAoTL back and then decrease our damage 20% or so. In Legion they took away our mobility and boosted our DPS. I want WoD Ret back, with less damage, but better 1vs1 / outdoor performance.

[lolskillzz]

Give Emancipate and LAoTL back and then decrease our damage 20% or so. In Legion they took away our mobility and boosted our DPS. I want WoD Ret back, with less damage, but better 1vs1 / outdoor performance.

lol wat? Ret is an absolute monster in outdoor pvp/1v1s. Only outclassed by extreme outliers. Get some gear and proper oranges.

[BlueRemedy]

Of all things in PvP you can't handle a fucking Ret Paladin?

I'm sorry but you have to be absolute liquid shit at this game.

[Morally Grey Storm]

You think I don't know AW and crusade are different?

I don't think so, it is you who exposed yourself as clueless Dragonslayer, so it has nothing to do with what I think.

They're still dps cooldowns, difference is crusade gives you better burst and not taking crusade lets you take DP so you get more consistent damage - some match ups you need better burst and some you need better sustained - there is no objectively superior talent, it's subjective.

Your ability to be wrong everytime you speak on this website is actually quite amazing.

I delight in the irony (c)

[Piesor]

Bubble > Oneshot Macro --> nerf Pala plx

[Lucetia]

Personally this seems like a you issue as I have no problem fighting them on any class, but even when on my Ret Paladin it feels meh, but let's see here.

1. Hammer of Justice. It has a 60 seconds cooldown and stuns for 6 seconds. First of all, 6 seconds? Really? It has a 60 seconds cooldown, I give you that, but the Talent Fist of Justice makes it to a 30 seconds stun anyway, so retribution paladins have a 6 seconds stun with a cooldown around 30-45 seconds. Most classes have a stun for 4 or 5 seconds and their cooldown is also around 30-50 seconds. Please reduce the duration or nerf Fist of Justice.

So most classes get a 4-5 second stun on a 30-45 second cooldown.
Ret Paladins is 6 seconds on 60 seconds. This is if they take that talent and not the other two. You also said it brings it down to 30 seconds. I think knocking 30 seconds off is if you manage to have 100% uptime on someone with full on finishers going. In order to knock off 30 seconds you need roughly 15 HP moves so that's 5 Templar's Verdict (assuming Wake is on CD during this duration). Having 100% uptime on a person means it'd take you roughly 15-20 seconds to get that fully knocked out. Now since we are talking about PvP and you should have other people helping you and slowing the paladin you won't get near that unless you are letting them just go to town on you the whole time.

2. Hand of Hindrance. This must be a complete joke right? 70% slow for 10 Seconds and a 30 seconds cooldown. This should definitely be nerfed to around 50% slow.

Sure. This is a complete issue /s. What about mages / hunters and probably other classes that can keep you slowed 100% of the time? Yup paladins having that is definitely an issue.

3. Divine Steed. I like this ability, it looks cool. I even think that it is "okay". I mean 100% speed bonus for 3 seconds is still pretty much op for melees. But most paladins I have seen in Battlegrounds use the talent Cavalier which gives you another charge for divine steed.

The ability is not cool and needs to go. I'd rather have sparkly lights behind me than this thing. The thing doesn't even help that much and other classes have better mobility + constant speed uptime than we do. Not to mention if you are Tauren/Draeni/Lightforged and don't have the glyph using it in buildings is impairing you. (Found that out leveling my LFD and not wanting to spend 6k for it on my realm)

So you can use your divine steed two times, which is a 100% speed bonus for 6 seconds PLUS the Hand of Hindrance which slows you for 70% for 10 seconds. That. Is. Freakin. Overpowered.

So they are overpowered for ~3 seconds? Because I can't think of any situation where using both your charges immediately is the best thing to do. How about you actually counter it? There are even reduction talents for PvP.

You have low to zero chance at all to effectively kite a retribution paladin. Now there are a some classes with a few spells of disengaging like Monks, arcane mages or Hunters. Still, compared to other melee classes retribution paladin - again - has too much utility. Warriors have charge and need to choose between a stun or a second charge of... charge. I don't even want to start talking about death knights.

Yeah, can't kite a paladin. Yet multiple classes have no issues doing it. Especially Hunters / Frost Mages >>
Warriors have way much more utility and mobility. Between Leaps and Charges and Execute has a charge if talented and in HP range. There's even a talent that makes it so Bloodthirst (3 or 4 second CD) clear all movement impairements.

4. Forbearance. You heard right, no hate about divine shield or lay on hands. They are okay (and somewhere even iconic for this class). Forbearance has a 30 second cooldown which is too low. In good situations a paladin is able to cast Lay on Hans AND Divine shield in one fight. I think paladins should decide wether to use Lay on Hands or Divine Shield and punish them if they chose for the wrong spell. Forbearance should be raised to one minute (in pvp).

Except they are punished by having a 10 minute CD (Lay on Hands) and a 5 minute CD (Divine Shield). If they use both then guess what they don't have them for the next several fights. Not to mention other paladins can use Lay on Hands on them and apply Forbearance.

5. retribution, when a nearby raidmember dies the paladin deals 20% increased damage and takes 30% reduced damage. Wtf?

Kill the paladin first?

As you can see retribution paladin feels pretty much too overtuned and overloaded. I didn't even talk about artifact traits. This madness needs to stop. I get it that paladin is a cool looking class with fancy light and they are the good guys and retribution and justice and stuff. But stop mary sue'ing this class in pvp.
What do you guys think? Does Retribution paladin need a nerf? What would you change? Please keep the discussion respectable.

Note that all the changes I suggested should inflict the paladin playstyle in PVP.

All you talked about was how you can't counter a Ret Paladin at all when you have the toolkit to do so. You are also complaining about 1v1 when you shouldn't be doing that either. This is definitely an issue of how you are playing your class rather than a class being overpowered.

[Metallourlante]

Well, as a fury warrior in 1v1 you can't beat a decent paladin, but they are not overpowered. At all.

[Morally Grey Storm]

You realise just saying I'm wrong and insinuating a bad player doesn't actually achieve anything. Literally nothing I have said has been incorrect - how about rather than saying I'm wrong, actually prove it?

Ret has a slow, a free, a movement speed increase (and a strong one at that) with 2 charges if talented (and the talent is the clear choice), it also has a stun (2 if talented), decent self healing

Yeah right.
I am still actively delighting in the irony.

Or just do what you normally do when you realise you're incorrect and stop replying to the thread.

did you just try to be snarky? Oh, that's cute