View Poll Results: Capping Titanforging

Voters
622. You may not vote on this poll
  • No Cap at all

    137 22.03%
  • Cap tiers to tier maximum itemlvl (I.e Emerald Nightmare can't go past 895).

    100 16.08%
  • Cap titanforging to their difficulty (Normal cant titanforge into heroic or mythic itemlvls).

    197 31.67%
  • Cap Titanforging at 12 itemlvls (0/2, 6 pr.)

    56 9.00%
  • Cap titanforging to +15. (0/3, 5 pr.)

    132 21.22%
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  1. #201
    Quote Originally Posted by Noh View Post
    Just found the armory: https://raider.io/characters/eu/ravencrest/Memedruid.

    The arcano is fake, he has a 915.
    Why r u lying

  2. #202
    Late to the party but I feel like the insane TF cap has contributed to ruining higher end raiding. Would love to see it capped at +15 or to their difficulty.

  3. #203
    Quote Originally Posted by Realfleks View Post
    Saying stuff is tuned around tf would mean bosses are tuned around topguilds having tf gear
    No, it doesn't mean that, and I didn't mean that. Please stop strawmanning.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler
    Q: Why was the anti-vaxxer's 4 year old child crying? A: Midlife crisis.

  4. #204
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    No, it doesn't mean that, and I didn't mean that. Please stop strawmanning.
    Raids are not tuned around titanforging - this is a fact.
    No strawmanning at all - just a simple example as to why your "explanation" makes no sense.

    If a guild kills argus at 960 then the boss was tuned for around =<960~.
    If you play worse you will need more gear sure,but this doesnt mean the boss is tuned for that.

    "it's raid content tuned under the assumption that you have a lot of -forged gear." - just no.

  5. #205
    Quote Originally Posted by Realfleks View Post
    Raids are not tuned around titanforging - this is a fact.
    You are claiming that Blizzard ignores a key gearing mechanism when they decide how they will tune raids.

    This is ridiculous and obvious nonsense. They take all the gear sources into consideration when tuning difficulty, to achieve the completion percentage they are targeting.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler
    Q: Why was the anti-vaxxer's 4 year old child crying? A: Midlife crisis.

  6. #206
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    You are claiming that Blizzard ignores a key gearing mechanism when they decide how they will tune raids.

    This is ridiculous and obvious nonsense. They take all the gear sources into consideration when tuning difficulty, to achieve the completion percentage they are targeting.
    Raids are not tuned around TF - TF is the "nerf over time" mechanic currently (which is horrible obviously.)
    Endbosses in legion were killed with itemlevelaverages around base itemlevel - wouldnt happen if the bosses were tuned around titanforging.

    Legendaries add +3-4~
    Weapon adds +1-2~

    So how was Argus killed at 960~, KJ at 934~ and guldan at 905~ if they were tuned around titanforging?
    They were not - done.

    The worse you play the more gear you need but tuning is judged by what is the minimum needed to even be able to kill a boss.
    Last edited by Realfleks; 2018-06-08 at 12:22 AM.

  7. #207
    Quote Originally Posted by Realfleks View Post
    Raids are not tuned around TF - TF is the "nerf over time" mechanic currently (which is horrible obviously.)
    Raids are tuned so that the core of the audience they are aiming it at will complete it with a good collection of TF gear.

    The initial difficulty of a tier is tuned around the raid having a good selection of TF gear from the previous tier.

    In other words: raids are tuned around TF. If TF wasn't there, the raids would be tuned easier so that this core of that audience segment would still be able to complete them.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler
    Q: Why was the anti-vaxxer's 4 year old child crying? A: Midlife crisis.

  8. #208
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Raids are tuned so that the core of the audience they are aiming it at will complete it with a good collection of TF gear.

    The initial difficulty of a tier is tuned around the raid having a good selection of TF gear from the previous tier.

    In other words: raids are tuned around TF. If TF wasn't there, the raids would be tuned easier so that this core of that audience segment would still be able to complete them.
    And i always thought major nerfs would be there for that exact reason
    Tf is a bad mechanic but it doesnt make content harder for the "core audience".

    Firstkills clearly show content is balanced around base itemlevel - you ignoring that fact doesnt nullify it.
    Itemlevel usually isnt the issue when said "core audience" gets to the hard bosses.
    Last edited by Realfleks; 2018-06-08 at 12:35 AM.

  9. #209
    Quote Originally Posted by Noh View Post
    Just found the armory: https://raider.io/characters/eu/ravencrest/Memedruid.

    The arcano is fake, he has a 915.
    nice catch
    Quote Originally Posted by Breezy Badger View Post
    Fucking joke of a moderator you are.
    Quote Originally Posted by Veshx View Post
    To be fair, this whole sites moderators are a joke.

  10. #210
    Quote Originally Posted by Realfleks View Post
    And i always thought major nerfs would be there for that exact reason
    TF from the previous tier is still with you going into the new tier. It's not a nerf over time to the new tier; it's there from day 1. And Blizzard tunes the new tier under the assumption the TF is there. They cannot ignore it.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler
    Q: Why was the anti-vaxxer's 4 year old child crying? A: Midlife crisis.

  11. #211
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    TF from the previous tier is still with you going into the new tier. It's not a nerf over time to the new tier; it's there from day 1. And Blizzard tunes the new tier under the assumption the TF is there. They cannot ignore it.
    The guilds that kill the bosses first swap out close to all pieces other than sets/trinkets in some cases within the first week due to splits anyway so still: no.
    Baseline TF from ToS = Heroic Antorus -> most pieces get swapped in said situation

    So no,content is not tuned around titanforged just because you have some titanforged items whilst killing a boss.
    If argus would've been tuned around tf guilds wouldnt have been able to kill argus with 960 ilvl. (keep in mind legendaries and artifact add 3-5 ilvl overall so 960 average is not tf heavy at all and "old" tf gear is below base mythic level too so thats no argument to claim raids are tuned around titanforging.)

    But as you ignore every single fact proven by numbers anyway this is my last response.
    Last edited by Realfleks; 2018-06-08 at 03:33 AM.

  12. #212
    Quote Originally Posted by Realfleks View Post
    The guilds that kill the bosses first swap out close to all pieces other than sets/trinkets in some cases within the first week due to splits anyway so still: no.
    Baseline TF from ToS = Heroic Antorus -> most pieces get swapped in said situation

    So no,content is not tuned around titanforged just because you have some titanforged items whilst killing a boss.
    If argus would've been tuned around tf guilds wouldnt have been able to kill argus with 960 ilvl. (keep in mind legendaries and artifact add 3-5 ilvl overall so 960 average is not tf heavy at all and "old" tf gear is below base mythic level too so thats no argument to claim raids are tuned around titanforging.)

    But as you ignore every single fact proven by numbers anyway this is my last response.
    You continue to be obviously wrong, so I'm not surprised you're slinking off in shame. Even you must realize the absurd hole you've dug for yourself here.

    Split runs? The average wow player does not do split runs. The average wow mythic raider does not do split runs. I'm not talking about the very upper guilds. Blizzard cannot tune content just for them. The tuning of Mythic (and Heroic, and Normal) are for the core of the audience they are targeted at, which is some percentage of the wow player population. And this tuning process cannot be ignoring the gearing mechanisms these players use, which includes titanforged gear. I've explained this before, but you continue to be resistant to clue (as you were yet again in that quote of yours above, where you argue that because SOME guilds can down Argus without TF, TF was not a consideration in tuning. This is a bullshit inference.)

    I'm not ignoring your "facts", I'm recognizing them for the non sequiturs they are. If I don't agree with the garbage conclusions produced by your defective thought processes it's not because *I* did anything wrong.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler
    Q: Why was the anti-vaxxer's 4 year old child crying? A: Midlife crisis.

  13. #213
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    You continue to be obviously wrong, so I'm not surprised you're slinking off in shame. Even you must realize the absurd hole you've dug for yourself here.

    Split runs? The average wow player does not do split runs. The average wow mythic raider does not do split runs. I'm not talking about the very upper guilds. Blizzard cannot tune content just for them. The tuning of Mythic (and Heroic, and Normal) are for the core of the audience they are targeted at, which is some percentage of the wow player population. And this tuning process cannot be ignoring the gearing mechanisms these players use, which includes titanforged gear. I've explained this before, but you continue to be resistant to clue (as you were yet again in that quote of yours above, where you argue that because SOME guilds can down Argus without TF, TF was not a consideration in tuning. This is a bullshit inference.)

    I'm not ignoring your "facts", I'm recognizing them for the non sequiturs they are. If I don't agree with the garbage conclusions produced by your defective thought processes it's not because *I* did anything wrong.
    You still dont understand that saying a boss is tuned for xxx means that this is the lowest itemlevel making it possible to kill so theres no point to argue. (You dont say a boss is tuned around 975 if its easy to kill at <965, just like youre not gonna kill a boss actually tuned around 975 with a raid of 965 ilvl.)

    I can put lfr raiders infront of argus mythic and claim the boss is clearly overtuned as that group would need 1050+ itemlevel to kill the boss - does this make sense? No.

    It was tuned around 960ish even before nerfs - just because worse guilds need more gear does not mean the boss was tuned for 970++ right from the get go.

    Then again you dont even understand that i only pointed out splitruns in combination with topguilds to highlight how old TF is close to irrelevant besides sets and never mentioned anywhere that the average mythicraider does them so even this answer in itself is already a complete waste of time.
    Last edited by Realfleks; 2018-06-08 at 02:21 PM.

  14. #214
    I feel the system in place in MoP and WoD was perfectly fine, small chance to get a warforged item that was 6 ilvls higher, not a major upgrade but still one that felt good. TF is a roulette that makes every item you get that doesnt roll a high TF feel like trash
    All who believe in telekinesis, raise my hand

  15. #215
    We can assess the claim that raiding is tuned with titanfoging in mind by comparing what average raid ilvl top guilds had when they killed the last raid bossed (in Legion vs. in past expansions). I'll use wowprogress and pick arbitrary guilds that finished in top 2 of 20-man/25-man race.

    - Legion
    Tier 21: Method killed Argus with ilvl 960.17. The raid drops ilvl 960 (last boss 970).
    Tier 20: Method killed KJ with ilvl 933.74. The raid drops ilvl 930 (last boss 940).
    Tier 19: Method killed Gul'Dan with ilvl 905.24. The raid drops ilvl 900-905 (last boss 910).

    - WoD
    Tier 18: Paragon killed Archimonde with ilvl 720.37. The raid drops 720-730 (last boss 735), all of that can be upgraded +10 ilvls.
    Tier 17: Paragon killed Blackhand with ilvl 680.07. The raid drops ilvl 700.

    - MoP
    Tier 16: Method killed Garrosh with ilvl 563.64. The raid drops ilvl 566, all of that can be upgraded +16 ilvls.
    Tier 15: Method killed Ra-den with ilvl 530.07. The raid drops ilvl 535 (last boss 541), all of that can be upgraded +8 ilvls.

    Can we deduce anything from this?
    How many slots of gear could the top guild upgrade in the time before the first kills happened? If there was not enough time to upgrade more than a couple of pieces, then the picture is roughly the same across the 3 expansions (Blackhand being an exception).
    Last edited by ID811717; 2018-06-09 at 03:41 AM.

  16. #216
    Quote Originally Posted by Exodeus View Post
    No cap, didn't get a single good titanforge this expansion so next expansion must be my time :P
    I wish I could give you my alt's. I swear every time I did some random Nighthold (at the time when it was relevant) on some alt I just wanted to fuck around with I got a titanforged to a billion ilvl and I was like !??!?!?

    It didnt even felt good it just frustrated me it was on a fucking alt and not on my main who I was raiding mythic with.

  17. #217
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    Quote Originally Posted by Draenox View Post
    I feel the system in place in MoP and WoD was perfectly fine, small chance to get a warforged item that was 6 ilvls higher, not a major upgrade but still one that felt good. TF is a roulette that makes every item you get that doesnt roll a high TF feel like trash
    I agree. Those systems let you get a nice little bonus for getting lucky. But it wasnt like just because you got that little bit of extra luck you are now suddenly the most powerful being in your group. Thus making normal gear just feel like a baseline weakness.

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