1. #2041
    Quote Originally Posted by jonnysensible View Post
    Bet the balance was alot closer to 50/50 in the ancient world out of necessity. Britons, Gaul, Scythian etc.
    50/50? You'd lose that bet.
    Sure, women warriors existed, but their numbers were never that great to begin with. A better representation is in west Africa, the 19th century Dahomey Amazons

  2. #2042
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    snip
    though the old romans were like 'holy fuck whats with all these chicks with swords' whenever they headed north

  3. #2043
    Quote Originally Posted by s_bushido View Post
    What our modern world looks like for most people, is a world where you can boot up pretty much any game with combat elements and male/female characters perform exactly the same, so the choice is purely aesthetic. Bigots probably vastly overestimate how twisted everyone else's panties will become when they see female soldiers in some work of fiction.
    I don't understand what you're trying to say here and I'm not even sure I want to.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonnysensible View Post
    well its 90-80/10-20 men to women in most modern armed forces. Bet the balance was alot closer to 50/50 in the ancient world out of necessity. Britons, Gaul, Scythian etc.
    Assuming this is a serious response I can only strongly advise you to pick up a history book.
    The absolute state of Warcraft lore in 2021:
    Kyrians: We need to keep chucking people into the Maw because it's our job.
    Also Kyrians: Why is the Maw growing stronger despite all our efforts?

  4. #2044
    Over 9000! ringpriest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by s_bushido View Post
    I wonder which part of Tolkien's world involved people living to be hundreds of years old.
    All of it? The elves (both the Noldor from the Blessed Realm and those of Middle-Earth) are effectively immortal, the dwarves live for about two and a half centuries on average, and the people of Numenor had extremely long lifespans as well.

    they [Númenóreans] remained unwearied for thrice the span of mortal Men in Middle-earth; but to Eärendil's son the longest life of any Man was given, and to his descendants a lesser span and yet one greater than to others even of the Númenóreans.
    And that was out of the gate, at the start of Numenor. Later (both chronologically on Numenor itself and in Tolkien's later writings) the average Numenorean lifespan was five times that of mortal Men, due to living more like the Eldar (the Elves), with the Line of Elros still living longer than others.

    It appears that the show may be trying to compress over a thousand years of history, but Numenoreans (and Elves, of course) did have very long lifespans. Even in the Third Age, the Dunedain lived longer than other men - Aragorn in 87 during the events of Lord of the Rings, and lives to over 200.
    "In today’s America, conservatives who actually want to conserve are as rare as liberals who actually want to liberate. The once-significant language of an earlier era has had the meaning sucked right out of it, the better to serve as camouflage for a kleptocratic feeding frenzy in which both establishment parties participate with equal abandon" (Taking a break from the criminal, incompetent liars at the NSA, to bring you the above political observation, from The Archdruid Report.)

  5. #2045
    Scarab Lord Ihavewaffles's Avatar
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    i thought sauron would look something like this, sneaky guy, not emo goth drugged face eminem..


  6. #2046
    Quote Originally Posted by ringpriest View Post
    All of it?
    The idiot I was responding to said:
    they are going to introduce changes to make the show more reflective of our modern world (as opposed to, you know, Tolkien's world) but now we're moving into territory that doesn't even reflect our modern world
    No one in Tolkien's world (mid 20th century England) lived to be centuries old. Morons are perfectly happy accepting myriad fantastical elements in stories like this...from talking trees, to immortal races, to literal magic...but when it comes to women in the military? That's too fictional to even imagine!

  7. #2047
    Quote Originally Posted by s_bushido View Post
    No one in Tolkien's world (mid 20th century England) lived to be centuries old. Morons are perfectly happy accepting myriad fantastical elements in stories like this...from talking trees, to immortal races, to literal magic...but when it comes to women in the military? That's too fictional to even imagine!
    You do realize that "Tolkien's world" was referring to the world Tolkien created -- the world this TV show is supposedly set in?
    The absolute state of Warcraft lore in 2021:
    Kyrians: We need to keep chucking people into the Maw because it's our job.
    Also Kyrians: Why is the Maw growing stronger despite all our efforts?

  8. #2048
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    You do realize that "Tolkien's world" was referring to the world Tolkien created -- the world this TV show is supposedly set in?
    No. I did not realize that. And since I assume you're pretending to quote the showrunners with this "our modern world" shit, complaining about me taking you out of context to intentionally make you look bad probably isn't a good idea, given that everyone who is riding along with you on that bandwagon does the exact same thing to them at every opportunity.
    Last edited by s_bushido; 2022-07-25 at 06:26 PM.

  9. #2049
    Quote Originally Posted by s_bushido View Post
    No. I did not realize that. And since I assume you're pretending to quote the showrunners with this "our modern world" shit, complaining about me taking you out of context to intentionally make you look bad probably isn't a good idea, given that everyone who is riding along with you on that bandwagon does the exact same thing to them at every opportunity.
    I'm not complaining about you "taking me out of context". I'm sneering at you for going down the usual dialogue tree in the most grandstanding way while missing the (pretty obvious) point.

    Oh, and just for the sake of clarity this is the quote I alluded to earlier "It felt only natural to us that an adaptation of Tolkien’s work would reflect what the world [obviously meaning the modern, western world] actually looks like".
    Last edited by Nerovar; 2022-07-25 at 06:48 PM.
    The absolute state of Warcraft lore in 2021:
    Kyrians: We need to keep chucking people into the Maw because it's our job.
    Also Kyrians: Why is the Maw growing stronger despite all our efforts?

  10. #2050
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    I'm sneering at you for going down the usual dialogue tree in the most grandstanding way while missing the (pretty obvious) point.
    Ah, is that what you were doing? Probably best if next time you don't start off the dialogue tree with an unsolicited post about how there are too many vaginas in the Numenorean army for your liking, then.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    Oh, and just for the sake of clarity this is the quote I paraphrased earlier "It felt only natural to us that an adaptation of Tolkien’s work would reflect what the world [obviously meaning the modern, western world] actually looks like".
    “It felt only natural to us that an adaptation of Tolkien’s work would reflect what the world actually looks like,” says Lindsey Weber, executive producer of the series. “Tolkien is for everyone. His stories are about his fictional races doing their best work when they leave the isolation of their own cultures and come together.”
    But I guess you disagree with the part you left off. Tolkien's work isn't for everyone, nor is it about people putting aside their differences and coming together to defeat an evil that would see them all subjugated or destroyed.
    Last edited by s_bushido; 2022-07-25 at 07:10 PM.

  11. #2051
    Quote Originally Posted by s_bushido View Post
    Ah, is that what you were doing? Probably best if next time you don't start off the dialogue tree with an unsolicited post about how there are too many vaginas in the Numenorean army for your liking, then.
    My post was about how they prioritize their modern day political goals over the facts of the world Tolkien has created. Care to point out where I'm wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by s_bushido View Post
    But I guess you disagree with the part you left off. Tolkien's work isn't for everyone, nor is it about people putting aside their differences and coming together to defeat an evil that would see them all subjugated or destroyed.
    Was Peter Jackson's Lord of the Rings trilogy not "for everyone"? Do you think women cannot watch those movies because there are no female Gondorian soldiers or Rohirrim (apart from Éowyn) fighting on the Pelennor fields? Do you even realize how absurd this line of argumentation sounds?
    The absolute state of Warcraft lore in 2021:
    Kyrians: We need to keep chucking people into the Maw because it's our job.
    Also Kyrians: Why is the Maw growing stronger despite all our efforts?

  12. #2052
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    Was Peter Jackson's Lord of the Rings trilogy not "for everyone"? Do you think women cannot watch those movies because there are no female Gondorian soldiers or Rohirrim (apart from Éowyn) fighting on the Pelennor fields? Do you even realize how absurd this line of argumentation sounds?
    Yes, it wasn't for everyone. I'm in my 40s and every woman my age never saw it until they had young kids of their own, usually boys. Most of them said it's "one of those dumb movies about men and their swords." This is changing, as women become more involved in nerd culture, but that's a very recent development.

    Ironically, I'd bet you'd be totally on board with the idea that romantic comedies are "for women" and alienate male audiences, while not understanding how high fantasy epics like LOTR do the same.

  13. #2053
    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    Yes, it wasn't for everyone. I'm in my 40s and every woman my age never saw it until they had young kids of their own, usually boys. Most of them said it's "one of those dumb movies about men and their swords." This is changing, as women become more involved in nerd culture, but that's a very recent development.

    Ironically, I'd bet you'd be totally on board with the idea that romantic comedies are "for women" and alienate male audiences, while not understanding how high fantasy epics like LOTR do the same.
    I mean not great to use personal experience as my mom who is in her 60s enjoyed them with me (though she didn't want to see the return of the king the 3rd or 4th time I went to be fair). I also know quite a few women in there 30s that enjoyed them too so, to each there own experiences.
    Quote Originally Posted by Xarim View Post
    It's a strange and illogical world where not wanting your 10 year old daughter looking at female-identifying pre-op penises at the YMCA could feasibly be considered transphobic.

  14. #2054
    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    Yes, it wasn't for everyone. I'm in my 40s and every woman my age never saw it until they had young kids of their own, usually boys. Most of them said it's "one of those dumb movies about men and their swords." This is changing, as women become more involved in nerd culture, but that's a very recent development.

    Ironically, I'd bet you'd be totally on board with the idea that romantic comedies are "for women" and alienate male audiences, while not understanding how high fantasy epics like LOTR do the same.
    That is an anecdote not really backed by the actual numbers of people who watched the movies in the cinema back then.
    Females “have definitely been the growth business of the movie,” says Russell Schwartz, New Line’s president of domestic marketing. “The audience for each movie has grown, and a large portion of that has been female, both younger and older.”

    Schwartz says the percentage of the audience that is female has gone from 42% for “Fellowship of the Ring” to 50% for “King.” Fantasy movies have traditionally had a male-dominated audience.[...]

    “We’ve found on “Return of the King” that females are bigger repeaters than males,” Schwartz says. Exit polls conducted by New Line three weeks after “Kings’ ” release showed that 56% of women under 25 had seen the movie at least once and 6% had seen it at least four times. By comparison, 54% of males under 25 had seen the it once and 4% had seen it four times or more.
    (https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-...ay1-story.html)

    Seems pretty balanced to me.

    Also to offer an anecdote of my own: I'm in my 20s and almost all of the die-hard LotR fans I know are women.
    The absolute state of Warcraft lore in 2021:
    Kyrians: We need to keep chucking people into the Maw because it's our job.
    Also Kyrians: Why is the Maw growing stronger despite all our efforts?

  15. #2055
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    Was Peter Jackson's Lord of the Rings trilogy not "for everyone"? Do you think women cannot watch those movies because there are no female Gondorian soldiers or Rohirrim (apart from Éowyn) fighting on the Pelennor fields?
    Or there’s nothing wrong with either approach.

    PJ did make some small steps towards making the movies a bit less of a sausage fest. That’s fine, he was working with a pretty set narrative. Increasing the female presence in the show (which is based more on a list of events and loose sets of notes) is fine as well.

    Anyone who thinks this ruins Tolkien’s world needs to get over themselves. The heroes of Tolkien’s world aren’t defined by their gender or skin color. They’re defined by their actions and how they stand up against evil.

  16. #2056
    Stood in the Fire VMSmith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    Yes, it wasn't for everyone. I'm in my 40s and every woman my age never saw it until they had young kids of their own, usually boys. Most of them said it's "one of those dumb movies about men and their swords." This is changing, as women become more involved in nerd culture, but that's a very recent development.

    Ironically, I'd bet you'd be totally on board with the idea that romantic comedies are "for women" and alienate male audiences, while not understanding how high fantasy epics like LOTR do the same.
    My wife was absolutely distraught at the death of Gandalf, having not read the books, and practically dragged me to the next two films ... even though I was the one who listed The Hobbit as the first book I ever read (on the recommendation of my mother, as well).

    And some of my favorite movies are Me Before You and The Holiday, among many other romantic comedies and tragedies and such.

    What I find funny is that while trying to accuse people of sexist ideology you personally engage in sexist accusations. Claiming that women don't like swords and sorcery and men don't like romance is your inner sexist showing through. Much like the accusations of "racist!" whenever someone states that they don't like diversity casting for the sake of diversity casting ... it's people projecting their inner racism onto others.

  17. #2057
    Quote Originally Posted by Adamas102 View Post
    Or there’s nothing wrong with either approach.

    PJ did make some small steps towards making the movies a bit less of a sausage fest. That’s fine, he was working with a pretty set narrative. Increasing the female presence in the show (which is based more on a list of events and loose sets of notes) is fine as well.

    Anyone who thinks this ruins Tolkien’s world needs to get over themselves. The heroes of Tolkien’s world aren’t defined by their gender or skin color. They’re defined by their actions and how they stand up against evil.
    I think we have plenty of stories about good guys (and girls) standing up against evil that also conform to our modern day notions of what societies should look like. So why does this need to be imposed on every story with brute force? Furthermore, there are ways to create more female presence without overwriting the rules of a setting. It would simply take more effort.

    Tolkien's universe is fundamentally medieval. It draws on medieval poetry, uses medieval styles of writing and is largely medieval in the way society is organized. Tolkien goes to great lengths to create an "air" of historicity for his world. This naturally includes gender relations which are explicitly stated throughout his works. If you take that aspect away, you are changing these stories whether you want to admit it or not. For example, Éowyn's story wouldn't even make sense if women were equal to men because (contrary to your claim) this character is literally defined by her gender and her personal struggle to conform with the social role it entails.
    The absolute state of Warcraft lore in 2021:
    Kyrians: We need to keep chucking people into the Maw because it's our job.
    Also Kyrians: Why is the Maw growing stronger despite all our efforts?

  18. #2058
    Over 9000! ringpriest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    I think we have plenty of stories about good guys (and girls) standing up against evil that also conform to our modern day notions of what societies should look like. So why does this need to be imposed on every story with brute force? Furthermore, there are ways to create more female presence without overwriting the rules of a setting. It would simply take more effort.

    Tolkien's universe is fundamentally medieval. It draws on medieval poetry, uses medieval styles of writing and is largely medieval in the way society is organized. Tolkien goes to great lengths to create an "air" of historicity for his world. This naturally includes gender relations which are explicitly stated throughout his works. If you take that aspect away, you are changing these stories whether you want to admit it or not. For example, Éowyn's story wouldn't even make sense if women were equal to men because (contrary to your claim) this character is literally defined by her gender and her personal struggle to conform with the social role it entails.
    There's a great essay on this by Michael Martinez.

    Tolkien’s Middle-earth Doesn’t Look Like Medieval Europe

    The short answer is "no" - Middle-earth is not medieval. (Though some artists may erroneously think it is.)
    "In today’s America, conservatives who actually want to conserve are as rare as liberals who actually want to liberate. The once-significant language of an earlier era has had the meaning sucked right out of it, the better to serve as camouflage for a kleptocratic feeding frenzy in which both establishment parties participate with equal abandon" (Taking a break from the criminal, incompetent liars at the NSA, to bring you the above political observation, from The Archdruid Report.)

  19. #2059
    Quote Originally Posted by ringpriest View Post
    There's a great essay on this by Michael Martinez.

    Tolkien’s Middle-earth Doesn’t Look Like Medieval Europe

    The short answer is "no" - Middle-earth is not medieval. (Though some artists may erroneously think it is.)
    Of course, I don't have the time to address everything said in this blogposts but a lot of the arguments in this seem stretched.

    A character named Pippin putting his hands in the lap of his liege swearing fealty is not really fealty, knights are not really knights... I mean, come on.

    It's also at best tangential to the argument. Either way we are talking about societies that are beyond any doubt pre-modern. Whether they sway more towards late antiquity or the early middle ages is immaterial to the discussion.
    Last edited by Nerovar; 2022-07-25 at 11:23 PM.
    The absolute state of Warcraft lore in 2021:
    Kyrians: We need to keep chucking people into the Maw because it's our job.
    Also Kyrians: Why is the Maw growing stronger despite all our efforts?

  20. #2060
    Quote Originally Posted by VMSmith View Post
    My wife was absolutely distraught at the death of Gandalf, having not read the books, and practically dragged me to the next two films ... even though I was the one who listed The Hobbit as the first book I ever read (on the recommendation of my mother, as well).

    And some of my favorite movies are Me Before You and The Holiday, among many other romantic comedies and tragedies and such.

    What I find funny is that while trying to accuse people of sexist ideology you personally engage in sexist accusations. Claiming that women don't like swords and sorcery and men don't like romance is your inner sexist showing through. Much like the accusations of "racist!" whenever someone states that they don't like diversity casting for the sake of diversity casting ... it's people projecting their inner racism onto others.
    LOL, I love romantic comedies.

    But the business of Hollywood doesn't lie - science fiction and fantasy have long had male-dominated audiences, and romantic comedies have had female-dominated ones. Whether it's Sex and the City or Lord of the Rings, the past 20 years has been Hollywood trying to figure out how to expand their audiences to people not traditionally seeing their movies. Apparently, according to another poster, LOTR had a big part in expanding that audience.

    That you (or I) like a romantic comedy or that your wife saw LOTR doesn't make these movies "universally accessible." Movies have a push and pull with culture - trying to affect culture, but also often a reflection of current culture. Introducing women and people of color as elves in Tolkein's world is part of that effort, and, imo, doesn't affect the themes or story of Lord of the Rings, which, as someone else pointed out, is mostly about the character of people, and their actions to stand against evil.

    Hell, there's a whole industry of YouTube reactors which is just basically "women watch movies their terminally online male fans insist they should have seen 20 years ago."

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