1. #2081
    Quote Originally Posted by Ashana Darkmoon View Post
    Then you have a few examples where the studio really tries to nail it for the existing audience instead (Top Gun comes to mind, I would probably also say Dune, and a lot of people say Cobra Kai is like this also, but I have not watched it) and behold, you have a massively successful product.
    https://www.esquire.com/entertainmen...ferences-book/
    “As a filmmaker, I’ve always been attracted by femininity, and in a lot of my movies the main protagonist is female,” Villeneuve said. “Femininity is there in the book, but I thought it should be up front. I said to [co-writers] Eric [Roth] and Jon [Spaihts], ‘We need to make sure that Lady Jessica is not an expensive extra.’ She’s such a beautiful and complex character.”

    [...]

    Following on his changes to Lady Jessica, Villeneuve made another move to foreground femininity: rewriting Dr. Liet Kynes, who viewers first meet as the Atreides arrive in the desert, as a woman. Readers of the novel will remember the character as a man appointed by the Imperium to act as the Judge of the Change, overseeing the hand-off of Arrakis from House Harkonnen to House Atreides. When Spaihts suggested gender-swapping the character, Villeneuve thought it was brilliant. “It doesn’t change the nature of the character,” Villeneuve said. “It just makes it closer to the world today, and more relevant and frankly more interesting.”
    womp womp

    Bolded is basically the exact same shit the showrunners have said about this, which dipshits are roasting them for sight-unseen.
    Last edited by s_bushido; 2022-07-26 at 08:06 PM.

  2. #2082
    Quote Originally Posted by jonnysensible View Post
    well its 90-80/10-20 men to women in most modern armed forces. Bet the balance was alot closer to 50/50 in the ancient world out of necessity. Britons, Gaul, Scythian etc.
    Pretty much the opposite unless literally defending the home. Women were largely treated as a resource to create more soldiers they absolutely would not he allowed on the front lines if at all possible.

  3. #2083
    Quote Originally Posted by s_bushido View Post
    Stealing a comment from Reddit:


    But Legolas had flowing golden hair and a fair complexion, so it was a perfectly respectful no-scope sniping.
    Completely justified! Tolkien only made war out to be a terrible endeavour because he lacked the language to adequately describe an elf surfing down an elephant as he kills it, and the Fellowship was only so serious because he couldn't think of the correct term to make a masturbation joke about the dwarf.

  4. #2084
    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    Yes, it wasn't for everyone. I'm in my 40s and every woman my age never saw it until they had young kids of their own, usually boys. Most of them said it's "one of those dumb movies about men and their swords." This is changing, as women become more involved in nerd culture, but that's a very recent development.

    Ironically, I'd bet you'd be totally on board with the idea that romantic comedies are "for women" and alienate male audiences, while not understanding how high fantasy epics like LOTR do the same.
    My mom literally read me the books starting with hobbit when I was around 5 because she loved them. Don't generalize.

  5. #2085
    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    The issue with judging on these merits is Tolkien published almost nothing about the Second Age and the vast amounts that were published posthumously show dramatically changing ideas around the characters and events involved. It isn't like the LotR movies where Jackson took a finished product and made changes to the tone and drastically changed some of the key characters.

    What is clear is that the people writing this show have done their homework and most of the things being complained about by YouTubers can be justified somewhere in the text, or at the very least aren't directly contradicted (apart form the racism but that isn't worth engaging with.) The biggest risk is the changes to the timeline of the Second Age and how much it is being compressed, whether it will be justified by the final product and achieved without detracting too much from the theme.
    No where in ANY text was Galadrial a warrior, so was describe as an amazon, yes, but that doesn't mean a warrior, her only involvement in a battle was tearing down a fortress with magic. She was also married to Celeborn in this age, and they had children one of which was a daughter that married Elrond, we know this. She was one of the oldest Elves, we know this, older than Celebrimbor and Gal-Galad, yet in the show she is depicted as younger than them both, and "brash and full of piss and vinegar" which she certainly wasn't in this age as she was looking to rule in this age with her husband. No where in the text did she go to Numenor, or interact with the "queen reagent" Mireil (who never was queen reagent, she was supposed to be but got screwed over). Elrond was also the first one to suspect Anatar of being Sauron, not Galadrial.

    That is some of the issues from text with ONE CHARACTER. I could go on, but why should I when neither you nor the show runners did your research.
    Last edited by bledgor; 2022-07-26 at 08:12 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Xarim View Post
    It's a strange and illogical world where not wanting your 10 year old daughter looking at female-identifying pre-op penises at the YMCA could feasibly be considered transphobic.

  6. #2086
    Quote Originally Posted by Soikona View Post
    Because the same people that complain about “inclusion” are the same people that can’t read more than 280 characters.
    Also the ones who won't actually watch the stuff they want changed even after it is changed.

  7. #2087
    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Midnight Bomber View Post
    I'm going to call that one out too...because you are literally debating that it is a bad adaptation.
    I'm not, I am telling you why you are wrong, there is no debate unless you don't know the lore/Tolkien, or actively hate him/his work.
    Quote Originally Posted by Xarim View Post
    It's a strange and illogical world where not wanting your 10 year old daughter looking at female-identifying pre-op penises at the YMCA could feasibly be considered transphobic.

  8. #2088
    Quote Originally Posted by bledgor View Post
    No where in ANY text was Galadrial a warrior, so was describe as an amazon, yes, but that doesn't mean a warrior, her only involvement in a battle was tearing down a fortress with magic.
    lol...are you fucking kidding me? "Amazon" is literally synonymous with "warrior woman."

    Quote Originally Posted by bledgor View Post
    She was also married to Celeborn in this age, and they had children one of which was a daughter that married Elrond, we know this. She was one of the oldest Elves, we know this, older than Celebrimbor and Gal-Galad, yet in the show she is depicted as younger than them both
    Is how they look relevant, when a defining characteristic of their species is that they essentially stop aging after reaching their prime? And given the connection between spirit and body that elves display, it's trivial to dismiss any incongruencies there as different people reaching that sort of maturity at different points.

    Besides, Blanchett was younger than Clarkk is when filming the original trilogy... 10 years younger than her "son" Elrond.
    Last edited by s_bushido; 2022-07-26 at 08:27 PM.

  9. #2089
    Quote Originally Posted by s_bushido View Post
    lol...are you fucking kidding me? "Amazon" is literally synonymous with "warrior woman."
    No it isn't some take take it that way, but it doesn't matter BECAUSE SHE NEVER FOUGHT IN ANY OF HIS WORKS MINUS USING MAGIC.

    Quote Originally Posted by s_bushido View Post
    lIs how they look relevant, when a defining characteristic of their species is that they essentially stop aging after reaching their prime? And given the connection between spirit and body that elves display, it's trivial to dismiss any incongruencies there as different people reaching that sort of maturity at different points.

    Besides, Blanchett was younger than Clarkk is when filming the original trilogy... 10 years younger than her "son" Elrond.
    Okay then why does Celebrimbor look like he could be her mother, why is she describes as brash and full of vinegar if they are supposed to be leaders and acting more maturely when she is older. Also while Blanchett might have been younger, she certainly didn't look like it, she looked like an ethereal 30(?) year old elf, meanwhile Clarkk looks like she is barely in her twenties, which would be okay if we were in the Time of the Trees and the rest of the elves younger than her looked as young as she did, but they don't instead again Celebrimbor (who was a suitor or hers btw) looks like her dad, and frankly so could Gil-Galad, both of who are YOUNGER than Galadrial.

    Again you have nothing to disrupt any of my points other than vague tangents. You ignored the half a dozen of my other points to nit pick two things that aren't even incorrect. You obviously aren't a fan of Tolkien so no point continuing to talk to you.

    Also Elrond wasn't her son, I know you have read 0 Tolkien lore, but Elrond is her SON-IN-LAW (he marries her daughter that she has with her still living husband Celeborn, someone who is rumors are right is dead in the show.).
    Last edited by bledgor; 2022-07-26 at 08:47 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Xarim View Post
    It's a strange and illogical world where not wanting your 10 year old daughter looking at female-identifying pre-op penises at the YMCA could feasibly be considered transphobic.

  10. #2090
    Quote Originally Posted by bledgor View Post
    No it isn't some take take it that way, but it doesn't matter BECAUSE SHE NEVER FOUGHT IN ANY OF HIS WORKS MINUS USING MAGIC.



    Okay then why does Celebrimbor look like he could be her mother, why is she describes as brash and full of vinegar if they are supposed to be leaders and acting more maturely when she is older. Also while Blanchett might have been younger, she certainly didn't look like it, she looked like an ethereal 30(?) year old elf, meanwhile Clarkk looks like she is barely in her twenties, which would be okay if we were in the Time of the Trees and the rest of the elves younger than her looked as young as she did, but they don't instead again Celebrimbor (who was a suitor or hers btw) looks like her dad, and frankly so could Gil-Galad, both of who are YOUNGER than Galadrial.

    Again you have nothing to disrupt any of my points other than vague tangents. You ignored the half a dozen of my other points to nit pick two things that aren't even incorrect. You obviously aren't a fan of Tolkien so no point continuing to talk to you.

    Also Elrond wasn't her son, I know you have read 0 Tolkien lore, but Elrond is her SON-IN-LAW (he marries her daughter that she has with her still living husband Celeborn, someone who is rumors are right is dead in the show.).
    In lotr frodo is in his 60’s, in PJ’s adaptation he appears slightly younger.

    It’s an adaptation, not a transcription. There will be differences that the showrunners deem necessary to get the story across. It is literally art BASED on tolkien, not a 1:1 retelling.

    If that doesn’t suit you, don’t watch it. I think I’m likely to thoroughly enjoy it ^^

  11. #2091
    Quote Originally Posted by Veggie50 View Post
    In lotr frodo is in his 60’s, in PJ’s adaptation he appears slightly younger.

    It’s an adaptation, not a transcription. There will be differences that the showrunners deem necessary to get the story across. It is literally art BASED on tolkien, not a 1:1 retelling.

    If that doesn’t suit you, don’t watch it. I think I’m likely to thoroughly enjoy it ^^
    ... IT isn't even close, I am not saying this will make it a bad or good show (I suspect bad, but whatever), I AM SAYING IT MAKES IT A BAD adaptation. It is fine for a race to look younger than humans/how we view ages, I get that, but it has to work the same relatively for the race. You can't have an elf that is older than two other elves, yet looks like their daughter/looks the same age as an elf thousands of years younger than her.
    Last edited by bledgor; 2022-07-26 at 09:14 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Xarim View Post
    It's a strange and illogical world where not wanting your 10 year old daughter looking at female-identifying pre-op penises at the YMCA could feasibly be considered transphobic.

  12. #2092
    Quote Originally Posted by bledgor View Post
    I'm not, I am telling you why you are wrong, there is no debate unless you don't know the lore/Tolkien, or actively hate him/his work.
    You are telling people why you believe they are wrong. They are responding by telling you that they believe you are being premature.

    That's the literal definition of a debate.
    Isms bore me. I think they are only brought by people who seek to marginalize the potential of each ism to provide something meaningful. Name it, Capitalism, Socialism, even Communism-- all contain something of merit towards structuring a society. The biggest flaw in human history has been the need to take the worst of a system along with the best. It doesn't have to be all of one and none of another.

  13. #2093
    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Midnight Bomber View Post
    You are telling people why you believe they are wrong. They are responding by telling you that they believe you are being premature.

    That's the literal definition of a debate.
    They are responding with things false/incorrect, I am stating things that are factually true, that you can look up/read the books to prove are right (so not my BELIEF as you want to try and frame it, FACTUALLY FUCKING TRUE, FEEL FREE TO LOOK IT UP). Just because people write some stupid incorrect shit doesn't make them right, but you and the others continue to defend factually wrong things in this shit tier adaptation.

    Again you are free to "believe" (as you like to say) the story will be good, that is possible, but when almost everything they have shown is not how Tolkien wrote it you can't say it is a good adaptation.
    Last edited by bledgor; 2022-07-26 at 09:23 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Xarim View Post
    It's a strange and illogical world where not wanting your 10 year old daughter looking at female-identifying pre-op penises at the YMCA could feasibly be considered transphobic.

  14. #2094
    Quote Originally Posted by bledgor View Post
    They are responding with things false/incorrect, I am stating things that are factually true, that you can look up/read the books to prove are right (so not my BELIEF as you want to try and frame it, FACTUALLY FUCKING TRUE, FEEL FREE TO LOOK IT UP). Just because people write some stupid incorrect shit doesn't make them right, but you and the others continue to defend factually wrong things in this shit tier adaptation.
    It is your BELIEF that the changes they have made to the "FACTUALLY FUCKING TRUE" things necessitate that this is automatically a bad adaptation.
    Isms bore me. I think they are only brought by people who seek to marginalize the potential of each ism to provide something meaningful. Name it, Capitalism, Socialism, even Communism-- all contain something of merit towards structuring a society. The biggest flaw in human history has been the need to take the worst of a system along with the best. It doesn't have to be all of one and none of another.

  15. #2095
    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Midnight Bomber View Post
    It is your BELIEF that the changes they have made to the "FACTUALLY FUCKING TRUE" things necessitate that this is automatically a bad adaptation.
    ... So you are daft, no point talking with you.
    Quote Originally Posted by Xarim View Post
    It's a strange and illogical world where not wanting your 10 year old daughter looking at female-identifying pre-op penises at the YMCA could feasibly be considered transphobic.

  16. #2096
    Quote Originally Posted by bledgor View Post
    ... So you are daft, no point talking with you.
    I'm not the one debating something that apparently isn't a debate.
    Isms bore me. I think they are only brought by people who seek to marginalize the potential of each ism to provide something meaningful. Name it, Capitalism, Socialism, even Communism-- all contain something of merit towards structuring a society. The biggest flaw in human history has been the need to take the worst of a system along with the best. It doesn't have to be all of one and none of another.

  17. #2097
    Quote Originally Posted by s_bushido View Post
    https://www.esquire.com/entertainmen...ferences-book/


    womp womp

    Bolded is basically the exact same shit the showrunners have said about this, which dipshits are roasting them for sight-unseen.
    What is this have to do with anything lol?

    Generally speaking dune widely considered to be a great and spiritually authentic adaptation at least so far. I can't imagine anyone watching that movie and thinking it was an attempt to hijack it with new characters completely change important existing ones. Paul is..Paul.

    If anything, this basically loops back to my point about how producers and whatnot want to be seen as good people, the amount of politics and negotiation and buzzwords you have to throw out to convince people in the media that you're doing certain things these days is nuts!

  18. #2098
    Quote Originally Posted by bledgor View Post
    No where in ANY text was Galadrial a warrior, so was describe as an amazon, yes, but that doesn't mean a warrior, her only involvement in a battle was tearing down a fortress with magic. She was also married to Celeborn in this age, and they had children one of which was a daughter that married Elrond, we know this. She was one of the oldest Elves, we know this, older than Celebrimbor and Gal-Galad, yet in the show she is depicted as younger than them both, and "brash and full of piss and vinegar" which she certainly wasn't in this age as she was looking to rule in this age with her husband. No where in the text did she go to Numenor, or interact with the "queen reagent" Mireil (who never was queen reagent, she was supposed to be but got screwed over). Elrond was also the first one to suspect Anatar of being Sauron, not Galadrial.

    That is all the issues from text with ONE CHARACTER. I could go on, but why should I when neither you nor the show runners did your research.
    You're making assumptions as to what Tolkien meant by "amazon," when in another letter he clearly defines it as a female soldier. He was a scholar and fan of myths so what else would he use the term "amazon" for if not in reference to the warrior-women of Greek myths? In later texts Galadriel most certainly fought at the first kinslaying and there are several times she would have fought defensively (as all elf-women do at times of need,) as well as there being at least one version who would have answered the call of Eonwe and fought in the War of Wrath. As one of the most powerful elves (if not the most powerful elf) in Middle-earth, a leader who travelled frequently, considered herself a commander and was concerned with the dark stain left by Morgoth from the start of the Second Age, it is difficult to see why Galadriel would not have found herself involved in battles throughout the lands. Out of interest, in your mind, what "magic" did Galadriel use to tear down a fortress (I assume you mean Dol Guldur?)

    Depending on which ageing system you use for elves Galadriel remained in the life-stage Tolkien referred to as "youth" either until the end of the Second Age or right through to the end of the Third. Using a young actress is not inappropriate and having her appear younger than Gil-galad is an issue with casting humans to play elves, the only casting decision I really have an issue with is Celebrimbor though I'll be interested to see if the try to justify him appearing older in the series or if they just liked the actor.

    I don't know how Annatar is being introduced in RoP for you to say who suspected what and when, what is made clear in her story is Galadriel was most acutely aware of dark forces moving in the wake of Morgoth's defeat, though at that time no-one knew it was sourced from one agent who would be revealed as Sauron.

    In general though Galadriel's character was very much in flux throughout Tolkien's life and her exact actions during the Second Age no doubt would have been made clear if he had got around to rewriting the Silmarillion as he intended. It's the uncertain nature of the Second Age that makes it fertile ground for telling stories without rewriting works that Tolkien had already set down as "canon."

  19. #2099
    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    What political goals, are you expecting this film to be a cry for universal healthcare or lower taxes or something?
    The more recent push for representation in media is a political goal whether you like it or not. I don't think this is really up for debate. Rewriting stories, characters and settings in order to conform with changing political realities is political.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    Sorry what are the "explicitly stated" gender relations of Numenor in the Second Age, where are they written? I can make suppositions based on how elvish society is organised and the fact Numenoreans are "high men" who are elevated close to the Eldar in nature but I don't know anything concrete.
    This is from the Unfinished Tales iirc:
    "Men in Númenor are half-Elves (said Erendis), especially the high men; they are neither the one nor the other. The long life that they were granted deceives them, and they dally in the world, children in mind, until age finds them – and then many only forsake play out of doors for play in their houses. They turn their play into great matters and great matters into play. They would be craftsmen and loremasters and heroes all at once; and women to them are but fires on the hearth – for others to tend, until they are tired of play in the evening. All things were made for their service: hills are for quarries, rivers to furnish water or to turn wheels, trees for boards, women for their body’s need, or if fair to adorn their table and hearth[...]For men fashioned Númenor: men, those heroes of old that they sing of – of their women we hear less, save that they wept when their men were slain."
    Of course, there's a lot of time between Tar-Aldarion's rule and the time when this show takes place (though I'm not exactly sure when it takes place because of the timeline compression).
    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    You should at least read a little more carefully. The "knights" are not "knights" in a feudal sense but "knights" in a "special warrior class" sense, the fealty isn't to Denethor as liege-lord it is too Gondor as a land. These make Gondor very different to feudal Europe. Also the Hobbit's name isn't Pippin, it's Razar. Pippin is the translation from Westron to Old English.
    Feudalism isn't the sole defining characteristic of the middle ages nor were knights exclusive to the feudal system. I have no interest in going into more detail about the article since it's not really related to the discussion.
    The absolute state of Warcraft lore in 2021:
    Kyrians: We need to keep chucking people into the Maw because it's our job.
    Also Kyrians: Why is the Maw growing stronger despite all our efforts?

  20. #2100
    Quote Originally Posted by bledgor View Post
    Some changes, not literally deleting dozens of characters, adding half a dozen new characters, condensing thousands of years into a couple years, etc. There are so many fucking changes mate, so no try again.

    Literally the only way you could argue otherwise is you don't give a single fuck about the lore, or you you hate Tolkien, so which is it?
    Lore lore lore. Blah blah blah. The lore is interesting, but it's only fluff in comparison to narrative and story telling. As I've said before, if it weren't for The Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit, this part of Tolkien's work would be long forgotten by anyone other than scholars who are interested in how a philologist might construct fictional languages and histories. "The lore" (especially what was buried in side notes and appendices) isn't what made those stories so enduring.

    You want to see how this works? Sauron, the Balrog, the Nazgul, the orcs, Shelob. Of all the lore that Tolkien created for these antagonists, how much did the movies need to convey for them to be effective/scary/imposing villains? Did we need to know the deep history of the Numenorians and the Dunedain to understand Aragorn's character? Did we need to know the full backstory of the Maiar for Gandalf to play the part of the wise sage? Again, lore can be interesting, but telling a good story doesn't depend on it.

    Maybe it would do you some good to pick up your copy of LotR and take a look at "the lore" that this show had available to it. In Appendix A: Numenor it's one page, back to front. In Appendix B: The Tale of Years it's another single page, and 3/4ths of it is just a list of "year - event". This isn't some amazing work of art that must be preserved at all costs. Even Tolkien himself wasn't above reconning as he saw fit, sometimes fixing inconsistencies and at other times creating new inconsistencies.

    But hey, maybe someday someone else with buy the rights to The Silmarillion and make a word for word adaptation of the 30 pages of the Akallabeth for you and the other purists.

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