Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[Biomega]

Make a Lord of the Rings movie with a neon-pink/green/yellow dragon that speaks like Paul Lynde, do you think it would be a success?

Okay, so clearly some changes make sense and others don't. With you so far.

Now explain why SKIN COLOR is one of those problematic ones, and not one of the ones you wouldn't have a problem with.

Because clearly "well you wouldn't want everyone to be be NEON-GREEN either" is not a good argument, since that doesn't tie into anything and is an arbitrary exaggeration that doesn't explain why, say, some random character being blond instead of brunette WOULDN'T bother you, even though you could leverage the same exaggeration against that.

Why single out skin color?

Would great writing save it?

In principle... yeah, probably. It'd have to be pretty fucking great, and I have no idea how it would work in detail, but I wouldn't categorically exclude a neon-punk version of LotR from ever working period.

But again: you're only explaining that SOME aspects would probably be more problematic than others, which I'm sure no one in their right mind would disagree with.

You're NOT explaining why SKIN COLOR is such a problematic aspect.

just like we have preconceived ideas of what LoTR elves and dwarves look and sound like because we've been reading these books for decades.

So what you're saying is:

1. YOU have preconceived notions about what LotR elves and dwarves look like (despite the rather sparse physical descriptions by Tolkien, who never even mentioned elves having pointed ears, for example)
2. You think that those preconceived notions are a good thing, and shouldn't ever be challenged or changed; despite the fact that numerous adaptations have already changed SOME things that you probably aren't complaining about

I'd like to hear more about why either of those are in fact the case and/or relevant

[Nerovar]

What rules?

The real-world rules of how skin color came to be, that are somehow more important than the real-world rules of physics and biology that no one has a lick of a problem with when it comes to the most quotidian elements of a fantasy setting?

This is the whole "dragons I can accept, but black people make no sense" bullshit all over again.

This isn't really about the "importance" of these rules. It's about which ones are deliberately suspended by the narrative and which ones are not. Different ethnic groups that correspond to geographical locales exist in middle earth analogous to our own world. Different peoples and their appearance and history are often described by the author. Racist notions exist within the setting even if only sparsely explored (description of the men of Far Harad comes to mind). The existence of Elves and Dwarves is expained and explored as part of the narration. Nothing similar exists that would elucidate why the peoples of middle earth would all look like the modern day United States.

I find this whole line of argumentation kind of tiresome. I wonder what kind of inclusion to make Middle Earth "reflect what the world actually looks like" would present a sort of red line for people like you (assuming there even is one). Can we assume wheelchair bound characters would be feasible since the text isn't an exploration of ableism?

[Nurasu]

This isn't really about the "importance" of these rules. It's about which ones are deliberately suspended by the narrative and which ones are not. Different ethnic groups that correspond to geographical locales exist in middle earth analogous to our own world. Different peoples and their appearance and history are often described by the author. Racist notions exist within the setting even if only sparsely explored (description of the men of Far Harad comes to mind). The existence of Elves and Dwarves is expained and explored as part of the narration. Nothing similar exists that would elucidate why the peoples of middle earth would all look like the modern day United States.

I find this whole line of argumentation kind of tiresome. I wonder what kind of inclusion to make Middle Earth "reflect what the world actually looks like" would present a sort of red line for people like you (assuming there even is one).

Why are we even casting humans for fictional races in the first place? Surely they'd be better as full CGI?

Can we assume wheelchair bound characters would be feasible since the text isn't an exploration of ableism?

It wouldn't have been much of a stretch to turn Radaghast into this based off of Peter Jackson's portrayal, and it wouldn't have been any great travesty to have done so.

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Plays / drama presentations/ Broadway must be excruciating for you guys with such limited imaginations.

[rogoth]

This dude kinda ruined any arguments against RoP when he was super fine with Legolas' shenanigans in the LotR movies, tbh.

Why is "artistic license" ok there, but not here?

please post the quote where i say i was ok with it, because unless i need to see an optician, i can't find that in anything i said, the comparison i made was to highlight the difference between the two projects, and the fact you still can't see that point speaks volumes frankly, what PJ did with legolas was artistic license, what Amazon and these clowns called writers/showrunners are doing is rewriting the entire basis of middle earth and how things function, that was the difference i was trying to point out, and yet here you are once again trying to put words in my mouth that never existed, twisting what's written to make yourself look clever when it does the opposite really, and honestly i'm bored of it, you're not the only one that does it but it's sad that that's what you fall back to as your main form of arguement, misquoting and misspeaking, almost as if you are natural born politician.

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Okay, so clearly some changes make sense and others don't. With you so far.

Now explain why SKIN COLOR is one of those problematic ones, and not one of the ones you wouldn't have a problem with.

Because clearly "well you wouldn't want everyone to be be NEON-GREEN either" is not a good argument, since that doesn't tie into anything and is an arbitrary exaggeration that doesn't explain why, say, some random character being blond instead of brunette WOULDN'T bother you, even though you could leverage the same exaggeration against that.

Why single out skin color?


In principle... yeah, probably. It'd have to be pretty fucking great, and I have no idea how it would work in detail, but I wouldn't categorically exclude a neon-punk version of LotR from ever working period.

But again: you're only explaining that SOME aspects would probably be more problematic than others, which I'm sure no one in their right mind would disagree with.

You're NOT explaining why SKIN COLOR is such a problematic aspect.


So what you're saying is:

1. YOU have preconceived notions about what LotR elves and dwarves look like (despite the rather sparse physical descriptions by Tolkien, who never even mentioned elves having pointed ears, for example)
2. You think that those preconceived notions are a good thing, and shouldn't ever be challenged or changed; despite the fact that numerous adaptations have already changed SOME things that you probably aren't complaining about

I'd like to hear more about why either of those are in fact the case and/or relevant

right, lets take this to an extreme, are you familiar with the fairy tale of hansel and gretel by hans christian andersen?

based on his writing the characters of hansel and gretel are portrayed as being your children, one male, one female, both of them are white, both of them are stereotypical of the region of where the author was from (denmark), meaning that they would have been fairly pale and likely blonde haired with blue or brown eyes.

200 years later, lets take this fairy tale and 'have it depict what our modern day looks like' instead of stereotypically scandinavian children, they have been race swapped into african american children, because we all know that black people outside of the USA wouldn't work, and instead of finding a witches cabin made of sweets, they find a crack house and become mules for the druglord (again taking the example to an extreme), how do you think people would react to this change? do you think people would be justified in their anger at having the original characters race swapped?, should we just say 'well it's modern times and people need to get with the times and stop complaining' (like many people have basically said in this thread), should we dismiss the complaints as people being 'racist' because they don't want these new iterations of characters?, i'm genuinely curious why this is such a hard concept for people to get their head around and yet are the ones screeching the loudest about racism and 'why can't *insert POC/minority group here* be "X" character?' despite all written accounts telling us why, i'm genuinely perplexed by the utter moronic arguements being made that defend this garbage project.

[Nurasu]

please post the quote where i say i was ok with it, because unless i need to see an optician, i can't find that in anything i said, the comparison i made was to highlight the difference between the two projects, and the fact you still can't see that point speaks volumes frankly, what PJ did with legolas was artistic license, what Amazon and these clowns called writers/showrunners are doing is rewriting the entire basis of middle earth and how things function, that was the difference i was trying to point out, and yet here you are once again trying to put words in my mouth that never existed, twisting what's written to make yourself look clever when it does the opposite really, and honestly i'm bored of it, you're not the only one that does it but it's sad that that's what you fall back to as your main form of arguement, misquoting and misspeaking, almost as if you are natural born politician.

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right, lets take this to an extreme, are you familiar with the fairy tale of hansel and gretel by hans christian andersen?

based on his writing the characters of hansel and gretel are portrayed as being your children, one male, one female, both of them are white, both of them are stereotypical of the region of where the author was from (denmark), meaning that they would have been fairly pale and likely blonde haired with blue or brown eyes.

200 years later, lets take this fairy tale and 'have it depict what our modern day looks like' instead of stereotypically scandinavian children, they have been race swapped into african american children, because we all know that black people outside of the USA wouldn't work, and instead of finding a witches cabin made of sweets, they find a crack house and become mules for the druglord (again taking the example to an extreme), how do you think people would react to this change? do you think people would be justified in their anger at having the original characters race swapped?, should we just say 'well it's modern times and people need to get with the times and stop complaining' (like many people have basically said in this thread), should we dismiss the complaints as people being 'racist' because they don't want these new iterations of characters?, i'm genuinely curious why this is such a hard concept for people to get their head around and yet are the ones screeching the loudest about racism and 'why can't *insert POC/minority group here* be "X" character?' despite all written accounts telling us why, i'm genuinely perplexed by the utter moronic arguements being made that defend this garbage project.

This is probably the worst example yet. Hansel and Gretel has already been adapted 500 times, including into anime and World of Warcraft, and their ethnicity doesn't change the fact that you can recognize the story in all of them. And no, there probably wouldn't be anger about their ethnicity, just the blatant fucking racism for what you would consider a "black version" of the story. Like seriously, could you people just fuck off with this shit?

[Ausr]

I can actually kinda buy there being black skinned dwarves. Maybe some clans or families have worked exclusively coal mines and maybe throughout the centuries, the coal dust have seeped into their skin and they've become more black as time goes on.

I dunno.

[rogoth]

This is probably the worst example yet. Hansel and Gretel has already been adapted 500 times, including into anime and World of Warcraft, and their ethnicity doesn't change the fact that you can recognize the story in all of them. And no, there probably wouldn't be anger about their ethnicity, just the blatant fucking racism for what you would consider a "black version" of the story. Like seriously, could you people just fuck off with this shit?

thank you for showing everyone you completely missed the point, and by extension failed to understand the point and are instead getting your panties in a bunch over the wrong thing, like so many have done already while trying to argue they in the right, it just goes to show how poor the reading and comprehension skills are in this thread by so many people if this is the kind of response provided.

[Nurasu]

thank you for showing everyone you completely missed the point, and by extension failed to understand the point and are instead getting your panties in a bunch over the wrong thing, like so many have done already while trying to argue they in the right, it just goes to show how poor the reading and comprehension skills are in this thread by so many people if this is the kind of response provided.

It's cute you think you made a point, other than going full mask-off.

[Biomega]

This isn't really about the "importance" of these rules. It's about which ones are deliberately suspended by the narrative and which ones are not. Different ethnic groups that correspond to geographical locales exist in middle earth analogous to our own world. Different peoples and their appearance and history are often described by the author.

So point out where Tolkien talked about the skin colors of dwarves or elves, and how they're different because of where they're located.

I'm happy to be shown references.

There's SOME references to different HUMANS, although with them, too, it's very hard to tell where/if Tolkien is talking about skin color and not something else. Just like him describing elves as "fair" does not have to refer to their complexion, as it can (and most likely does) simply mean "beautiful to behold" rather than "light-skinned". And even where he IS talking about skin color, one group being primarily one skin color would not automatically mean all OTHER groups of humans are ALSO just one skin color.

Skin color wasn't what Tolkien was interested in, it's as simple as that. His narrative revolves around different forms of categorization, and those are preserved even if you have a black dwarf or an Asian-looking elf.

I find this whole line of argumentation kind of tiresome.

You and me both. Mostly because 90% of it isn't an argument, it's just "I don't want black people in my fantasy, because they don't belong in there for... uh... reasons that aren't racist I promise I swear I really do".

I wonder what kind of inclusion to make Middle Earth "reflect what the world actually looks like" would present a sort of red line for people like you (assuming there even is one). Can we assume wheelchair bound characters would be feasible since the text isn't an exploration of ableism?

That's a complete misrepresentation of the argument. It's not about a fictional setting reflecting "what the world actually looks like". It's about removing selection criteria for which there is no good, relevant narrative or artistic justification. What you're suggesting is getting that process entirely backwards.

right, lets take this to an extreme, are you familiar with the fairy tale of hansel and gretel by hans christian andersen?

based on his writing the characters of hansel and gretel are portrayed as being your children, one male, one female, both of them are white, both of them are stereotypical of the region of where the author was from (denmark), meaning that they would have been fairly pale and likely blonde haired with blue or brown eyes.

200 years later, lets take this fairy tale and 'have it depict what our modern day looks like' instead of stereotypically scandinavian children, they have been race swapped into african american children, because we all know that black people outside of the USA wouldn't work, and instead of finding a witches cabin made of sweets, they find a crack house and become mules for the druglord (again taking the example to an extreme), how do you think people would react to this change?

This can and does happen in fiction ALL THE TIME. In fact your example is a pretty good one, as "updated" reinterpretations of classic folk/faerie tales are ubiquitous across all kinds of genres. That's a GOOD thing, and it's done in all sorts of contexts and in all kinds of literary spaces. Some of those stories are great, some are shit; but that's because for ALL stories some are great and some are shit. Nothing new there.

What YOU would need to explain here is how Hänsel and Gretel being white matters to the story. In fact, stories like that are often dissected into constituent parts in academic scholarship, which are largely context-agnostic - i.e. for the vast majority of them the principles at the root of the narrative do not care one bit about whether it's two white kids or whether it's a boy and a girl or whatever, and the story would work just the same - at a fundamental level - if it was two black girls or two Asian boys.

You've effectively demonstrated precisely WHY race does NOT matter for a majority of stories, and is relevant only to those narratives that specifically and profoundly engage with those characteristics themselves. So thanks, I guess!

[rogoth]

It's cute you think you made a point, other than going full mask-off.

once again proving you lack the education needed to understand what was being said, and lack the critical reading and comprehension skills necessary to understand the point, if you can't understand something, the correct response is to ask for clarity and help with that lack of understanding, instead all you have done is berate me for no reason, but carry on, i'm sure it's making you look great.

[Nurasu]

once again proving you lack the education needed to understand what was being said, and lack the critical reading and comprehension skills necessary to understand the point, if you can't understand something, the correct response is to ask for clarity and help with that lack of understanding, instead all you have done is berate me for no reason, but carry on, i'm sure it's making you look great.

Why don't you clarify why a Hansel and Gretel adaptation about two African American children should include crack houses and drug mules? I'm sure your answer will make you look great.

[rogoth]

This is an awful lot of text just to project, while also saying very little.

IIRC, the text of your post said people gave it a pass as nothing more than a bit of artistic license, it was disregarded. I.E. it isn't an issue in this case, for whatever reason. I didn't need to twist any words in your post.

Hansel & Gretel: Witch Hunters was amazing, btw.

interesting edit being made to your original posting of this, that aside, you still missed the entire point of the comparison, and you are showing and have shown a clear lack of mental acuity to be able to compartmentalise things, you're very clearly unable to detach concepts and must always label things and put them into predetermined boxes, you are showing you clearly lack the fundamental ability to disassociate things, i suggest trying again when you have learned this skill.

as to hansel and gretel: witch hunters, i too enjoyed it, but i'm not sure what that has to do with the comment i made and extreme stereotype comparison i made to highlight my point, in that particular movie all characters were white actors playing the roles assigned to them, the only change was that instead of being taken in by the witch and eaten, the kids escaped, became killers of the supernatural and turned the concept around, nothing of the actual characters themselves was fundamentally changed, unlike with this clownshow where everything so far is very bad fan fiction writing, terrible casting based on fundamentally flawed reasoning, and yet here we are seeing people defend this dross because it's 'brave' 'empowering' 'activist supporting' bullshit.

[SirDjord]

Tolkien was very positively writing a Northern European mythology, drawing on assorted myths and legends from North-West Europe. Obviously the characters (should) reflect that. Trying to force "the message" instead of focusing on the actual story and lore is very distburing. We have an obligation to the author and his amazing work to present his world the way he created it and not forcing politics and modern values upon it.

[rogoth]

Why don't you clarify why a Hansel and Gretel adaptation about two African American children should include crack houses and drug mules? I'm sure your answer will make you look great.

are you really this dense?, are you seriously asking this question with a straight face thinking it's the point of the example given?, i'm astounded at how stupid this question is, not only does this have nothing whatsoever to do with the point i was making, it's so far removed from the point as to be irrelevant, but here you are hung up on the extreme stereotype i used to emphasise a point, a point i might add you have failed to grasp at every turn so far, is your comprehension ability this poor you cant grasp the concept?

[Nurasu]

are you really this dense?, are you seriously asking this question with a straight face thinking it's the point of the example given?, i'm astounded at how stupid this question is, not only does this have nothing whatsoever to do with the point i was making, it's so far removed from the point as to be irrelevant, but here you are hung up on the extreme stereotype i used to emphasise a point, a point i might add you have failed to grasp at every turn so far, is your comprehension ability this poor you cant grasp the concept?

I don't think it was your point at all. I just think it's telling that's where your brain went when trying to conjure up a story about black children.

[rogoth]

Tolkien was very positively writing a Northern European mythology, drawing on assorted myths and legends from North-West Europe. Obviously the characters (should) reflect that. Trying to force "the message" instead of focusing on the actual story and lore is very distburing. We have an obligation to the author and his amazing work to present his world the way he created it and not forcing politics and modern values upon it.

steady on now, this kinda talk makes you sound like a racist, because respecting the original works is only a smokescreen you hide behind to cover for your closeted racist tendencies /s.

[rogoth]

I don't think it was your point at all. I just think it's telling that's where your brain went when trying to conjure up a story about black children.

would you have preferred i had said that instead of a witches cottage they found a KFC and ate fried chicken until they burst?, is that a more palatable stereotype to use for you?, or how you give me one that works to use an extreme for emphasis, please enlighten me as the example i gave was one of the first things that showed up when i search for 'african american stereotypes' in order to make that post.

[Nurasu]

would you have preferred i had said that instead of a witches cottage they found a KFC and ate fried chicken until they burst?, is that a more palatable stereotype to use for you?, or how you give me one that works to use an extreme for emphasis, please enlighten me as the example i gave was one of the first things that showed up when i search for 'african american stereotypes' in order to make that post.

Were the original Hansel and Gretel racist stereotypes for Danish people? I didn't realize racist stereotypes were a requirement for a faithful adaptation to that story. I'm guessing that just has to do with your own internal thought processes.

Edit: Oops, I missed the part where Google made you do it; my bad!

[rogoth]

Jesus Christ...

Again, for the first paragraph, you don't actually say anything beyond "you're just too stupid to get it, derp!" Which is odd, considering you just complained to someone that they only berated you. Your argument just appears empty.

As for the second, as other posts were talking about Hansel & Gretel, I just threw in a quick comment about how I enjoyed that movie lol Literally nothing more to it, yet you still turned into a lengthy paragraph about how changing the entire story of Hansel & Gretel is fine, and how amazingly bad RoP apparently is (you haven't seen it yet, ofc) because you've attached these particular words to it.

Go touch grass.

no that's your interpretation, what i actually said was that you can't seem to see things in a vacuum and look at things as individual concepts as you need to make sure everything has a neat little label attached to it, i think you understood perfectly fine what i was saying and are just being obtuse about things to get a rise.

i have seen the promotional materials released to date, and based on that i have come to the conclusion it's badly written fan fiction taking a galaxy sized dump on the grave of the author of the original works in order to self insert 'activists' into the cast, in order to insert gender politics into something that doesn't exist within the source material, and that the showrunners for this project can't keep their story straight, first it was a 'faithful adaptation', then it was 'a reflection of what our world is like today', then it became a 'based on the works by' project, which is it then?, tell me because i'd love to know.

[Nurasu]

first it was a 'faithful adaptation', then it was 'a reflection of what our world is like today', then it became a 'based on the works by' project, which is it then?, tell me because i'd love to know.

None of these are mutually exclusive.