1. #2161
    Scarab Lord Frontenac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orby View Post
    Yes and no answer here. While yes it does come from the reader but its also rooted in its origin. Elves along with other fae creatures are based in western and northern European folklore which were causation based on their origin at the time. The same way African, Indian, Asian folklore are based within that state of origin of that time and place. Of course over time other cultures have adopted other folk lore and applied it to their own, over time stories grow and spread far and wide and come with their own interpretations. But folklore tends to be rooted within its own ancient culture and reflect that time and place and so thats how people will remain to perceive it. So technically yes it is the readers interpretation but its because of its origin that makes it so,.
    True, but those roots are also coming from the readers, not Tolkien. He wrote that he regretted calling the Eldar "Elves", because at his time, the word was used for diminutive, whimsical fairy creatures. That's why we depict them with pointy ears. Nowhere in Tolkien's work are the Eldar described with pointy ears. Originally, the Noldor were called Gnomes. Imagine if he kept the name... Now, the Eldar were inspired in part by the "Alfr" of the Norse Eddas, but not that much. And I didn't know anything about those when I first read the Hobbit. So nothing was telling me the Elves were supposed to be some kind of demigods living in the topmost level of the World Tree (which I also knew nothing about). And when you read about a couple of Elven guards getting piss drunk, it's hard to see Elves as ethereal creatures...
    "Je vous répondrai par la bouche de mes canons!"

  2. #2162
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orby View Post
    Think they have them in Dragon Age actually. A franchise no one is complaining about elves of colour. With some dark skinned elves being featured all the way back in Origins albeit without the ethnic hair back then. I think that only started since Inquisition and in the comics. Even Shale was an allegory for a trans character although they have since added an actual trans character in Dragon Age since then, who is a good character actually. :P

    Here's the key if you start your fantasy world with PoC and diversity no one will bat an eye, but if you incorporate them into a franchise where they were none before people will point it out. Its why WoW got a bit of blowback about dark skinned elves despite the fact never having them before, yet Dragon Age and D&D get no or little blowback.
    Dragon age is a kinda horrible example of people not complaining dragon age 2 got a bunch of complaints about the gay characters so did inquisition about that the trans character and sera, even just the announcement of a 4th game a couple years back had people complaining about them making it “political”.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  3. #2163
    Quote Originally Posted by Frontenac View Post
    That's why we depict them with pointy ears. Nowhere in Tolkien's work are the Eldar described with pointy ears.
    huh. Given how ubiquitous the depiction is, I guess I just always assumed that he described them that way at some point.

  4. #2164
    Titan Orby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    Dragon age is a kinda horrible example of people not complaining dragon age 2 got a bunch of complaints about the gay characters so did inquisition about that the trans character and sera, even just the announcement of a 4th game a couple years back had people complaining about them making it “political”.
    I must have missed the arguments then. Also what were people mad about Sera for, she was great.
    "People fear, not death, but having life taken from them. Many waste the life given to them, occupying themselves with things that do not matter. When the end comes, they say they did not have time enough to spend with loved ones, to fulfill dreams, to go on adventures they only talked about... But why should you fear death if you are happy with the life you have led, if you can look back on everything and say, 'Yes, I am content. It is enough.'" - Wynne ( Dragon Age: Origins.)

  5. #2165
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orby View Post
    I must have missed the arguments then. Also what were people mad about Sera for, she was great.
    half remembering this, But I believe sera had two common complains one being that she was female romance only and another being that she (and all other females) were ugly and purposely made that way because of SJW's.

    Safe to say you were better off missing them at the time.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  6. #2166
    Titan Orby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    half remembering this, But I believe sera had two common complains one being that she was female romance only and another being that she (and all other females) were ugly and purposely made that way because of SJW's.

    Safe to say you were better off missing them at the time.
    ahh well i can't complain my love interest was Dorian :P

    I liked the 'not everyone is bi' approach that DA:I had... but oh well. :P
    "People fear, not death, but having life taken from them. Many waste the life given to them, occupying themselves with things that do not matter. When the end comes, they say they did not have time enough to spend with loved ones, to fulfill dreams, to go on adventures they only talked about... But why should you fear death if you are happy with the life you have led, if you can look back on everything and say, 'Yes, I am content. It is enough.'" - Wynne ( Dragon Age: Origins.)

  7. #2167
    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    They don't have the rights to that period of Tolkein's histories, iirc.
    So I heard yeah. They got the period the Tolkien estate carries the least about.

    Still, even in that period there's orcs and dwarves and all kinds of reasons to simply start small and intimate. It's so much easier to scale up than it is to scale down.

  8. #2168
    Quote Originally Posted by Khaza-R View Post
    I think they actually missed an opportunity to show of an elf with "ethnic" long hair. Which would of been much cooler looking.

    But at the end of the day, if the worst thing about this series is a haircut then we are all extremely lucky.

    I see the elves as being mythic archetypes living in the world of Tolkien and interacting with mortals which is what makes them "other". That is a distinction that is very important to Tolkien's lore and this "otherness" in being immortal and taller than normal humans is part of what gives them their "ethereal" or "otherworldly" nature. It also means that they are not technically supposed to be seen as a literal "human" type race but as a fantasy race with mythical attributes. This same kind of trope is found in the Elves of WOW but they have many different types of skin colors, like pinks and bluish which just shows they are a fantasy race and not intended to be taken as simply real world humanoids. The lore of the 3 ages is that the first 2 ages are the times of myths, legends and larger than life heroes, villains and battles while the 3rd age is the transition from that mythic age to the age of normal mortal men, as in real world men. And the 4th age is that story of the mortals going forward, where the elves and so forth are like the literal gods and demigods of our historical mythology if they actually were real at some point in the ancient past. Other franchises have elves as just another mortal race with simply more affinity to different schools of magic,who may be ancient but still just mortals. And this is why there is so much more diversity in the depictions of elves outside of Tolkien in general because they have a wide variety of settings and backgrounds given the wide variety of fantasy settings created in high fantasy since then. But yes, that look of Tolkien elves is supposed to reflect his intentions for them as a race and not simply as some generic template from a MMO character creation screen with infinite options for appearance. That really isn't Tolkien at all. Heck even with that "Dark" elves have most often been depicted as darkish grey or even brown but still with that distinct elven look with the long straight hair and ears distinguishing them as a fantasy race.
    Last edited by InfiniteCharger; 2022-08-01 at 02:33 PM.

  9. #2169
    Titan Orby's Avatar
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    1 month to go before we all have to choose two extreme sides of how we feel about this show. Because these days there are only two sides. Because its 2022 and every bit of geek media is a declaration of war. lol

    also can anyone tell me if this show is coming out episode a week or all at once? Usually amazon release their shows a episode or two a week.
    "People fear, not death, but having life taken from them. Many waste the life given to them, occupying themselves with things that do not matter. When the end comes, they say they did not have time enough to spend with loved ones, to fulfill dreams, to go on adventures they only talked about... But why should you fear death if you are happy with the life you have led, if you can look back on everything and say, 'Yes, I am content. It is enough.'" - Wynne ( Dragon Age: Origins.)

  10. #2170
    Quote Originally Posted by Orby View Post
    1 month to go before we all have to choose two extreme sides of how we feel about this show. Because these days there are only two sides. Because its 2022 and every bit of geek media is a declaration of war. lol
    A month? People have already picked a side and they won't be switching back on this forum.

  11. #2171
    Quote Originally Posted by Deadite View Post
    A month? People have already picked a side and they won't be switching back on this forum.
    It does seem like that for a lot of people.

    For those who already decided it sucks, if people generally like it it'll be because they're the brainwashed slaves of Bezos who have no taste at all, and if it's not generally liked it'll be their vindication that go woke go broke.

    For those who already decided it's good, if people like it then it's proof everything about it is good with no exception, if they don't like it it's proof that we're all a bunch of racists.
    It is all that is left unsaid upon which tragedies are built -Kreia

    The internet: where to every action is opposed an unequal overreaction.

  12. #2172
    Quote Originally Posted by Orby View Post
    1 month to go before we all have to choose two extreme sides of how we feel about this show. Because these days there are only two sides. Because its 2022 and every bit of geek media is a declaration of war. lol

    also can anyone tell me if this show is coming out episode a week or all at once? Usually amazon release their shows a episode or two a week.
    Just because there are two sides to an argument it does not follow that both sides must be extreme.

    The extreme argument is "This show sucks ass and tolkien is spinning in his grave"

    The other argument is "I'll wait for the show to come out before I decide if and/or how much they are raping Tolkien's corpse." That's not an extreme position. It's a very reasonable position.
    Isms bore me. I think they are only brought by people who seek to marginalize the potential of each ism to provide something meaningful. Name it, Capitalism, Socialism, even Communism-- all contain something of merit towards structuring a society. The biggest flaw in human history has been the need to take the worst of a system along with the best. It doesn't have to be all of one and none of another.

  13. #2173
    Quote Originally Posted by Orby View Post
    1 month to go before we all have to choose two extreme sides of how we feel about this show. Because these days there are only two sides. Because its 2022 and every bit of geek media is a declaration of war. lol

    also can anyone tell me if this show is coming out episode a week or all at once? Usually amazon release their shows a episode or two a week.
    There is only one side and that is Amazon's. They are making this and want you to buy it. If you do or not that is up to you.
    And at this point Tolkien's wishes don't count in terms of what the end product is going to be.

  14. #2174
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orby View Post
    1 month to go before we all have to choose two extreme sides of how we feel about this show. Because these days there are only two sides. Because its 2022 and every bit of geek media is a declaration of war. lol

    also can anyone tell me if this show is coming out episode a week or all at once? Usually amazon release their shows a episode or two a week.
    You mean 1 month until it’s once again clear that there was only one true LOTR and they should have never given into there hubris and tried to adapt any thing beyond it.

    Last edited by Lorgar Aurelian; 2022-08-03 at 01:30 PM.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  15. #2175
    Quote Originally Posted by InfiniteCharger View Post
    There is only one side and that is Amazon's. They are making this and want you to buy it. If you do or not that is up to you.
    And at this point Tolkien's wishes don't count in terms of what the end product is going to be.
    It would be interesting to see the shows metrics. I think the bulk of people who have amazon prime have it for shipping rather then the shows.

    I expect it to go as well as a wheel time but like I've said I'm willing to be surprised.

  16. #2176
    Titan Orby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Midnight Bomber View Post
    Just because there are two sides to an argument it does not follow that both sides must be extreme.

    The extreme argument is "This show sucks ass and tolkien is spinning in his grave"

    The other argument is "I'll wait for the show to come out before I decide if and/or how much they are raping Tolkien's corpse." That's not an extreme position. It's a very reasonable position.
    There are two extreme sides, not that there cannot be modest two sides. I am mainly talking about THE extreme sides. Not that all sides are extreme.

    Side 1: Those that think its all part of some crazy woke political agenda to Tolkien's art form. They are prepared to hate it whether its good or bad, so much so that any good parts of the show are ignored for the extreme side of 'it all sucks' ignoring the good.

    Side 2: those that have heard side 1 and feel the show must be defended because it embraces everything side 1 hates, and any attempt show any criticism over certain aspects has you labelled and highlighted as an enemy of X. So there for you are an X'ist. These people will praise the show ignoring the negatives because of the greater good.

    This was the same with Ghostbusters (2016), the same with Captain Marvel the same with Last Jedi. which for myself outside of Ghostbusters (2016) which I still haven't seen I thought Captain Marvel and Last Jedi were fine movies. I fell in the middle, I thought they were fun but flawed movies. But social media being social media, you gotta have those two extreme sides where you got to love or hate it completely to be not called the appropriate buzzword.

    Of course you are going to have some sensible sides, like those like me who will most likely enjoy some parts of the show but will probably find a few things to dislike. Or those that may wholly dislike or hate the show but end it there and move on not dwell and attacks others for not having validation of that opinion but may be willing to discuss and argue sensibly with lose friends or 'normal' people about their issues. I was on social media back when Ghostbusters, Captain Marvel Last Jedi were rampant, people are fucking nuts on there. A lot of people have extreme sides. Not everyone of course but on social media its like world war 3 lol

    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    You mean 1 month until it’s once again clear that there was only one true LOTR and they should have never given into there hubris and tried to adapt any thing beyond it.

    For me personally I wish the franchise was never touched after the mediocrity of the Hobbit. This show has tainted my Youtube recommendations. Where as before the shows announcement I would enjoy looking up Tolkein creators like Nerd of the rings and Broken Sword to get a dose of Tolkien lore and find other Tolkien channels and interesting fun Tolkien fan sites in the creative space. NOW though my YouTube pages are filled with giant man children crying about woke this and woke that and RoP is destroying my childhood.... Its too much, where even blocking channels isn't working they just come back again.

    I will give this website some praise, it does invite some valid criticisms and discussion, sure you have some crazy folk here and there, but at least I can sort of share my thoughts here and find like minded people to agree and disagree sensibly without the loud voices blocking out constructive discussion like alot of social media does.
    Last edited by Orby; 2022-08-03 at 08:37 AM.
    "People fear, not death, but having life taken from them. Many waste the life given to them, occupying themselves with things that do not matter. When the end comes, they say they did not have time enough to spend with loved ones, to fulfill dreams, to go on adventures they only talked about... But why should you fear death if you are happy with the life you have led, if you can look back on everything and say, 'Yes, I am content. It is enough.'" - Wynne ( Dragon Age: Origins.)

  17. #2177
    Quote Originally Posted by Orby View Post
    There are two extreme sides, not that there cannot be modest two sides. I am mainly talking about THE extreme sides. Not that all sides are extreme.

    Side 1: Those that think its all part of some crazy woke political agenda to Tolkien's art form. They are prepared to hate it whether its good or bad, so much so that any good parts of the show are ignored for the extreme side of 'it all sucks' ignoring the good.

    Side 2: those that have heard side 1 and feel the show must be defended because it embraces everything side 1 hates, and any attempt show any criticism over certain aspects has you labelled and highlighted as an enemy of X. So there for you are an X'ist. These people will praise the show ignoring the negatives because of the greater good.
    Again, "Side 2" isn't praising the show..."side 2" is saying "hey, maybe it will be good, though". That is not an extreme position.

    Calling out "side 1" for being bigots is not the same thing as defending the show.
    Isms bore me. I think they are only brought by people who seek to marginalize the potential of each ism to provide something meaningful. Name it, Capitalism, Socialism, even Communism-- all contain something of merit towards structuring a society. The biggest flaw in human history has been the need to take the worst of a system along with the best. It doesn't have to be all of one and none of another.

  18. #2178
    Titan Orby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Midnight Bomber View Post
    Again, "Side 2" isn't praising the show..."side 2" is saying "hey, maybe it will be good, though". That is not an extreme position.

    Calling out "side 1" for being bigots is not the same thing as defending the show.
    Well there's defending the show and blindly defending it. the same reason side one is attacking the show. The show isnt even out yet. So you cannot defend or attack it and make your mind up when it isnt even out. That's the point.

    sure you can hold your hands up and from the mere look of the show be like 'this isn't for me' and that's fine. Or say 'this looks interesting i'll check it out'

    Unless you think that the side 2 example I gave was a reasonable side to be then you are the problem. :P
    Last edited by Orby; 2022-08-03 at 08:47 AM.
    "People fear, not death, but having life taken from them. Many waste the life given to them, occupying themselves with things that do not matter. When the end comes, they say they did not have time enough to spend with loved ones, to fulfill dreams, to go on adventures they only talked about... But why should you fear death if you are happy with the life you have led, if you can look back on everything and say, 'Yes, I am content. It is enough.'" - Wynne ( Dragon Age: Origins.)

  19. #2179
    Stood in the Fire Mazza's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orby View Post
    This was the same with Ghostbusters (2016), the same with Captain Marvel the same with Last Jedi. which for myself outside of Ghostbusters (2016) which I still haven't seen I thought Captain Marvel and Last Jedi were fine movies. I fell in the middle, I thought they were fun but flawed movies. But social media being social media, you gotta have those two extreme sides where you got to love or hate it completely to be not called the appropriate buzzword.
    Ghostbusters (2016) failure was blamed on sexism and that might have been a part of it but... the movie just wasn't very good or entertaining, imo. Captain Marvel I agree on, that movie was absolutely fine but The Last Jedi... what they did with that movie might have been ok as a STANDALONE or hell, even an alternative universe project. As part of the epic 9 part story that the star wars main movies are, TLJ (and tbh, also the Rise of Skywalker) is so damn bad it should not even be considered canon.

  20. #2180
    Quote Originally Posted by Orby View Post
    Well there's defending the show and blindly defending it. the same reason side one is attacking the show. The show isnt even out yet. So you cannot defend or attack it and make your mind up when it isnt even out. That's the point.

    sure you can hold your hands up and from the mere look of the show be like 'this isn't for me' and that's fine. Or say 'this looks interesting i'll check it out'

    Unless you think that the side 2 example I gave was a reasonable side to be then you are the problem. :P
    I don't think the side 2 example you gave is a reasonable example. I don't think the side 2 example you gave even exists.

    Side 2 are the people that are waiting for the show to be out before making up their minds. Side 1 are the people that have already decided it's shit. Some of those people on Side 1 are calling it shit for bigoted reasons. calling those people out is not the same thing as "defending" the show.
    Isms bore me. I think they are only brought by people who seek to marginalize the potential of each ism to provide something meaningful. Name it, Capitalism, Socialism, even Communism-- all contain something of merit towards structuring a society. The biggest flaw in human history has been the need to take the worst of a system along with the best. It doesn't have to be all of one and none of another.

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