Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[InfiniteCharger]

No it's not. That's why I asked the question.

And instead of just ANSWERING like a reasonable human being, you wrote an essay about fifty things I never said.

Why are you still going on about this? You know the point being made we have discussed it to death.
You just want to be "right" when there is no right or wrong in the sense of people having personal opinions.
I already said it is fine if you feel that "adaptation" can be a very loose or substantial change to the source material.
But that is not how I look at it. You are absolutely full of BS if you are claiming that somehow this is an issue of Englilsh comprehension.
I said in plain English I don't agree with you, no matter how you word it or try and phrase it.
All this round and round is you just trying so hard to seem "right" in your opinion as if I must somehow agree with you.
I don't. Period.

The issue is whether it MATTERS, not whether it's MENTIONED.

The issue is whether you and I agree on what matters. That is my point.
Your definition of what matters is not my definition of what matters.
This isn't an issue of misunderstanding.
You aren't convincing me that my position is wrong because it isn't wrong.
Just leave it at that and stop trying so hard to "win" something.
There is no "win" here.

Which you apparently STILL don't see a distinction between, despite me repeating it so often.

You apparently fail to realize that there is a distinction in how I look at things and how you look at things.
And you refuse to simple agree to disagree instead of sitting here acting like this is an issue of reading comprehension.
You just wont let it go at that.

You're too hung up on the word "arbitrary" (which YOU introduced into this in the first place, not me). The question I'm asking is DOES IT MATTER for the story, not whether or not Tolkien just rolled the dice or had something in mind. There's a whole catalog of cosmetic details authors choose for NON-arbitrary reasons but that nevertheless have NO SUBSTANTIAL NARRATIVE ROLE of any kind - things like for example hair color, height, eye color, the color of clothing, and so on and so forth. All cosmetic details that were chosen to be JUST SO by authors, yet in the grand scheme of the narrative are usually of no to negligible importance narrative (and, as always, in cases where they're NOT negligible, they should be retained). My point is that for most stories, skin color is on exactly that level of relevance - a cosmetic detail, not a plot driver.

You are the one that is hung up because you wont just agree to disagree. Rather than going on and on about your opinions.
It is simple enough for you to read about Tolkiens work for yourself and not rely on me and my views on it.
Again, the obvious fact here is that you don't care as much about being faithful to the source material as I do.
I am not changing my position no matter how much you keep droning on about your own made up rules.
So what is the point here? You are just going in circles.

That does NOT mean I'm saying it's "arbitrary", and it does NOT mean I'm saying "the author just did this because they're racist!". All I'm saying is that given the story at hand, there seems to be no substantial function to that particular characteristic, and as such, it's one of the many many details that can freely be changed without significantly affecting anything about the story.

If Tolkien wrote a whole bunch of works and left copious amounts of notes and letters relating to the world of Middle Earth, then obviously all of that detail was relevant to the fantasy world he was building. To sit here and act like this man didn't spend a large amount of his later years on this is what is annoying. You keep acting like this specific author just wrote one or two books and that was it. This is getting ridiculous at this point in your insistence on ignoring all the stuff the man actually wrote. Obviously all of it was important for the story, narrative, lore and mythology of Middle Earth or he wouldn't have written it. You just keep ignoring this acting like this is some abstract discussion about fantasy and fiction in general.

Just agree to disagree and stop with this inane need to explain yourself as if you are changing my mind on this.

That's EXACTLY what happens in adaptations for any number of details without substantial relevance to the narrative, and no one ever raises a problem about THOSE; yet they somehow DO for skin color.

Again, I disagree with you. You just keep repeating yourself because you refuse to agree to disagree.
Why do you feel the need to keep explaining yourself like I don't understand you? This is not about understanding.
There is only one narrative and that is the source material and there is a whole lot of work that was done by the man to lay it out.
Now if you haven't or don't want to read or at least get an idea of all the writing he has done in fleshing out that world, then fine.
But the point is, he did because all of that was relevant to the narrative of Middle Earth that he created from his imagination.
There is no "other" narrative than that which is going to be true to his intent. You are basically saying that "adaptations" can do whatever.
You just keep repeating yourself acting like I don't understand you because you just wont let go and agree to disagree.

The problem is right here.

You've never offered ANYTHING of substance to show why their skin color MATTERS to anything in the narrative.

All you've ever put forward was "Tolkien wrote them/intended them to be white" and "making them non-white would not be how it is in the original".

Which is the exact same argument you could make for any number of OTHER cosmetic details that also have no relevance to the actual narrative, and no one ever seriously complains about THOSE. Why is skin color different?

Going in circles again because you refuse to agree to disagree. You are so hard set on making your opinion seem right and wont let go.
Just constantly repeating yourself over and over again. All you are doing is justifying your position that substantial changes are justified.
And I keep saying that those changes therefore mean it is no longer Tolkien's work. You can keep going in circles all you want.
You aren't changing my opinion on this. Skin color is just one small part of all of this.

The reason I put Lie. on things is, as I explained, because it's you claiming something I never said.

Like what you're saying there.

I'll continue to do this, so please don't bother offering statements I never made; if you disagree, all you need to do to disprove me is quote something. Should be simple, right?

So are you actually trying to say that Tolkien did not intend that his work reflect the people and culture of ancient Britain and Europe?
And that everything he wrote including the languages he crafted, the letters, the substantial other materials aren't relevant to that?
That is my proof. Again, you are being dishonest because you already have said you don't care about being true to source material.
So therefore, it doesn't matter whether skin color is relevant because anybody can come along and change it and you would be OK with it.
This is the point you keep making but act like I don't understand. I understand you perfectly. This is not Tolkien is my point.
All of the various works he took many years to create say that those things were relevant to his story. You just refuse to accept that.
If you would just stop trying so hard to act like you are "right" and that I must agree with you things would be fine.
There is nothing wrong with disagreeing. I am not going to hate you. Just let it go for goodness sake. This is ridiculous.

I feel insulted that you're now asking me to please explain what I've BEEN EXPLAINING in clearly marked, clearly pointed out form, FOR THREE DAYS.

Kindly re-read the 20 or so times I literally explained this exact thing.

Now you are going to argue that saying whether skin color is "relevant" is different than saying that it is arbitrary.
I know you cannot be that silly to sit here and pretend to be arguing that "relevant" and "arbitrary" have different meanings in this context.
You introduced both of these terms as part of your explanation that changes to source material can be made and still be an "adaptation".
And you specifically stated that casting should be open to everybody. And you used the word "relevant" in justification for this.
The point I am making is that if Tolkien spent so many years writing additional details defining the people of middle earth, they must be relevant.
What you are arguing is that it is not up to Tolkien alone as to what is "relevant" or not or what the "narrative" is.
Therefore, someone else can come along and decide that what is "relevant" is totally different than what Tolkien wrote.
Again. I disagree with you. What is and is not relevant is what is in the source material written by the author.
That is my point. You keep pretending that what is and isn't relevant or important is up to someone other than Tolkien.
And you keep repeating yourself like I don't understand you. I understand you just fine.
You just refuse to let go and agree to disagree. Repeating yourself even more is not going to make me agree with you.

The FACT of whether or not something is described as X in the source is not open to interpretation.

Whether or not X is RELEVANT to the narrative in some substantive way, that absolutely is.

If the author took the time to define it and write it then it must be relevant. It came from their imagination.
So there is no other "authority" on what is relevant in someones imagination. You are just continuing to repeat yourself.
I do not agree with you that the decision on what is and isn't relevant is outside of the hands of the author.
That does not mean that someone doing an adaptation cannot change stuff, but that means they have a different imagination.
And therefore, depending on what they define as "relevant" the result may be substantially different from the source material.
This means it is no longer the same as what the author or creator intended or felt was relevant for their story.
You can keep trying to pretend that this isn't the point and I don't understand.
I do understand and again for the 20th time, I don't agree with you on what constitutes staying true to the source material.

And if your position is that skin color IS relevant to the narrative, all I'm asking is that you back up that claim with more than "well that skin color is what it says in the text", which is a tautology.

I am saying that if Tolkien took the time to write substantial amounts of information about the characteristics of populations of Middle Earth it is relevant and far beyond cosmetic. And that would include skin color. You just keep going in circles trying to argue against that simple point.

No it isn't.

YOU are trying to MAKE it about that, because your entire argument is "well it's not like that in the text!" and you have nothing else to support your position.

As I've explained many times, truth to the source material by itself is not an argument, just a red herring - because of the existence of a huge amount of details that are quite clearly irrelevant to the plot and are changed ALL THE TIME in any kind of adaptation without anyone complaining. That PROVES that JUST going "but the teeeeext!" isn't sufficient to argue anything; you need to show why a detail is RELEVANT, too, in order to make any sort of point.

Yes it is. Because why are you spending so much time explaining to me about what is "relevant" or what is "arbitrary" when doing an adaptation?
You cannot seriously be claiming that this is not about source material where you are spending so much time trying to explain to me how adapting a work of fiction is about what is "relevant" to the "narrative" or "arbitrary". It is about what I view as being "true" to the source material versus what you accept as being true to the source material. I don't agree with you on what constitutes staying true to source material. I don't even know what you think you are debating me about.

Your position is that source material is a red herring because AS YOU KEEP STATING what is relevant or arbitrary in the source material is up to interpretation by those doing the adaptation. You keep saying this but acting like I don't understand you. I don't agree that this is a red herring. That is another example of you using words to try and pretend that the source material isn't relevant to doing an adaptation when it absolutely is. Because these changes being made are done consciously by those doing the adaptation and therefore they know what they are changing and why. Because they have decided, separate from the original author, what is "relevant" or "arbitrary" from the source material (in this case Tolkien) and therefore must be followed or not, whether that be skin color or anything else. Again, this all boils down to you have a different idea of what constitutes a faithful adaptation from mine and refuse to accept that and move on. You swear you are changing my mind by repeating yourself when you are not. Stop repeating yourself. I am not changing my mind on this.

So that's a "yes" then, on being incapable of parsing analogies?

The analogy is irrelevant to the discussion of a story about white people casting non white actors.
You are just going on and on about nothing.

To address the problem of "omg how is there ONE SINGLE BLACK PERSON all of a sudden I AM SO CONFUSED!" that you invented as a rather hyperbolic hypothetical. Which, as I've explained in that same paragraph, isn't actually something that'd ever happen, but even IF IT DID, it has the simple fix above.

The point being that yours is not a sensible objection to begin with.

Nobody said anything about being confused. What I said was Tolkien spent a lot of time and effort creating the family tree of the Numernorean kings.
I guess according to you, that this isn't relevant to Miriel who we only know about because of that family tree written by Tolkien.
Somehow you don't understand how people in the same family tree would share traits like skin color, meaning there wouldn't be just one person popping up with a certain skin color if everyone else in the family has a different skin color. That doesn't make any biological sense.
But according to you this kind of genealogy and biology doesn't matter even if Tolkien spent a lot of time and effort creating it.

Right.

HOLD ON.

I was talking about the LABEL "adaptation". Now you are suddenly talking about what makes a GOOD adaptation.


Those are not the same thing, poppet. Not even close.

Please argue HONESTLY.

You like talking in circles..... did you not say this a few pages ago?

That's a VERY different discussion. Until we actually see how it turns out, we can't really comment on it.

Is it the same as Tolkien wrote it? Nope. But every adaptation differs in some way (I'm sure you've heard it before). Whether or not these changes make for good writing we will have to see in the finished product. And judge them based on whether they're good writing or not; not based on how accurate they are to the source.

You just love making up new words to focus on in order to play dumb. LOL!

You yourself used the word "good" in reference why I should demand that they stick to the source material.
The argument this whole time was that changes to the source material don't mean that it isn't an adaptation.
And that it can still be considered an adaptation with "good" writing and "good" casting.
Now you object to the word "good". You love just dragging this out instead of just agreeing to disagree.
You can't be silly enough to think this is about the word "good". You are so dam dishonest it is pathetic.

Because I'm not disputing that point. Never have. I'm not arguing about the facts, I'm arguing about their RELEVANCE.

If I introduced that example specifically to point out that stories exist with all white people from Europe and would be casted as such. Now you sit here and claim that wasn't the point. You know that was the point and you actually tried to argue that somehow by these being adaptations, they were changing the characters from non white Europeans into white Europeans. All of those other stories also included white Europeans. I proved you wrong now you try and change goal posts. Pathetic. Or I guess you will say I am misunderstanding you or that that wasn't your point. Or you will say that an "adaptation" of Romeo and Juliet doesn't have to have white people.

Right.

Lets just agree to disagree and stop with this nonsense.

Which you'd know if you were interested in parsing my statements, rather than just making your own. "LOL".


You keep making about things I'm not and never was talking about. I've literally said so, many times.

Why? Why do you keep going back to things I've already SAID MANY TIMES I don't dispute and am not arguing against?

"But this hat is BLUE!"

"Yes, yes it is. Does that matter, though?"

"Dude, stop saying the hat isn't blue, IT IS FUCKING BLUE!"

"I... I know. I've said it is. But why is that relevant?"

"LMAO I can't even, you clown, THE HAT IS BLUE, it SAYS SO RIGHT THERE are you for real."

"I don't deny that. But is the color actually important?"

"Holy shit how are you still trying to say the hat isn't blue IT IS BLUE, BLUE, BLUE it says in the text EVERYWHERE that it is fucking BLUE!"

This is kind of surreal at this point.

So I guess this babbling means you cant win that point so you just will go onto something else.
Now it is about the word "blue". Yeah that's it. I don't understand what you mean by blue elves.

Right again.

LOL.

[Triceron]

It's still Van Gogh "The Starry Night." The Legos didn't change a thing.

What do you mean they didn't change a thing?

It's not a painting. It's a set built with Lego's. It's limited by the color palette available to Lego bricks. It contains zero brush strokes. It is quite different from the original.

And that is my point. Differences and changes that represent something original do not have to beholden to being anything like the original. This Lego creation does not have to be a painting made of brush strokes. It is a Lego creation that is an adaptation of a famous painting; a derivative works that is itself an original creation. And people can appreciate (or criticize) it for what it is.

A remake can be, and should be, gauged on its own merit, and not merely of the standard of being 'true to the original'. A Lego set that is represents Starry Night does not have to strive to being 'true to Van Gogh's vision' in order to be appreciated as a work of art or entertainment. It can be appreciated merely for the sake of being a Lego set.

[Krawu]

Imagine being this angry there are black people in a TV show.


Anyways: So far from the few trailers/screenshots we've had, this show looks like CGI hell, and not in a good way. Uff.

I apologize in advance for the incoming Wall of text but I feel I need to address this properly.

Hardly anyone has issues with black people being on TV in general. This is a bad faith misrepresentation of what people are actually angry about.

There's always the very valid question of WHY they're there. In a show like this with all the world building detail we have it really does feel like they're mere token characters.

You can't be mad at fans who want their adaptations to be true to the source material. Middle Earth is just a tiny part of Arda, the world Tolkiens Lengendarium is set in. Middle Earth corresponds to Europe, with the Shire being the equivalent of rural England and Gondor that of Spain or Italy. This makes sense because, as Tolkien said, he wanted it to be a mythology for England.

Given that it's a fantasy world without easy travel options and lots of danger it's reasonable to expect people to remain local unless they're traders or diplomats. Going further than the nearest market town would be an exceptional journey for anyone. People are distrustful of outsiders. That means the diversity, while laudable in our world, makes no sense here and represents an intrusion into the world building.

They could've gone the GoT Route to diversify the cast and story. Tolkien never did any in-depth exploration of the lands outside Middle Earth. If they'd wanted backlash-free diversity on their show they could've simply expanded on what's going on on other continents on Arda. They could've invented any peoples or races living there and spun them into the story as travelers, adventurers, traders, their own fellowship on a mission to do something in Middle Earth and nobody would've complained.

I use that same measuring stick for any TV show or movie with a fantasy or historical setting. The Last Airbender live action movie should've starred exclusively Asian actors since the entire premise of the cartoon was based on Chinese mythology and spiritual concepts - but it was white- and brownwashed instead.
Son Goku in Dragonball Evolution should've Asian since the Character is based on Sun Wukong. In Black Panther non-black Wakandans would make absolutely no sense given that it's a secretive and isolationist country. Imagine a historical movie about the Zulu tribe where they cast Bryan Cranston as Shaka Zulu. I'm sure he's the right caliber of actor for such a role but he IS white, so he's simply out of the race (no pun intended) by default, and rightfully so.

In contemporary and Sci-fi settings diversity is easy to accomodate. You don't even need to try. It doesn't need to be explained because we're already used to it in our world. But in the past it didn't exist for a myriad of geographical, societal and logistical reasons, so in history and fantasy settings you need to have a good explanation for it.

[Triceron]

I use that same measuring stick for any TV show or movie with a fantasy or historical setting. The Last Airbender live action movie should've starred exclusively Asian actors since the entire premise of the cartoon was based on Chinese mythology and spiritual concepts - but it was white- and brownwashed instead.

To be very honest, this is a hangup rather than any substantial means to 'measure' a show or movie with a fantasy or historic setting. White and Brown-washing had little to do with Avatar being a poor movie. It was hurt by its poor pacing, bad script and sub-par acting more than anything to do with visual appearances.

Just the same, I could point at any portrayal of Aladdin as being 'unfaithful' to its original story, but no one would care the actor is being 'brown-washed' with Middle Eastern actors even though the character is supposed to be Chinese. Like, no one has this hangup, mostly because they don't even know it's a thing. It's really not worth making a point of even, since no modern depiction of Aladdin is expected to have a Chinese actor as its main lead even if that's how it was in the original story (which most people don't even know of)

As long as the depiction is respectful, I don't see any problem in having a white actor in a role of Asian (Ancient One in Dr. Strange was absolutely fine), and it doesn't really make the movie any better or worse for it. Like, does the Ancient One really need to be an Asian actor just because they were Asian in the comics? I don't think so. Of course, everything is context sensitive. Black Panther, Shang Chi; these are very specific characters we're talking about where it wouldn't make sense to race swap, because they have very close ties to a particular culture which is important to their stories. But something like a White woman portraying the Ancient One or a Black man portraying Baron Mordo doesn't really make or break Dr. Strange, especially when the Mystic Arts are already meant to surpass any single culture.

[VMSmith]

The point I am making is that if Tolkien spent so many years writing additional details defining the people of middle earth, they must be relevant.
What you are arguing is that it is not up to Tolkien alone as to what is "relevant" or not or what the "narrative" is.
Therefore, someone else can come along and decide that what is "relevant" is totally different than what Tolkien wrote.
Again. I disagree with you. What is and is not relevant is what is in the source material written by the author.

This is a very good point. The more I think about it, the more this show feels like season eight of Game of Thrones ... fanfic. Lesser writers piggybacking off of the efforts of a master to tell the story they wanted.

- - - Updated - - -

As long as the depiction is respectful, I don't see any problem in having a white actor in a role of Asian (Ancient One in Dr. Strange was absolutely fine), and it doesn't really make the movie any better or worse for it. Like, does the Ancient One really need to be an Asian actor just because they were Asian in the comics? I don't think so.

You do realize people lost their shit over that bit of casting, right? Same with Scarlett Johansson as Major in Ghost in the Shell.

[Triceron]

You do realize people lost their shit over that bit of casting, right? Same with Scarlett Johansson as Major in Ghost in the Shell.

The movies will be good or bad on their own merits. Certain people will have more hangups than others and make their voices known, doesn't make it any less a hangup.

Scarlett Johanssen in GITS should be valued for her performance, not her skintone. Skintone should not be a means of measurement for a movie. If people have a problem with it, it is nothing more than a hangup.

[s_bushido]

Scarlett Johanssen in GITS should be valued for her performance, not her skintone. Skintone should not be a means of measurement for a movie. If people have a problem with it, it is nothing more than a hangup.

I was annoyed by that casting choice more because I dislike Johansson as an actor. Her being the wrong nationality can just be handwaved away with the whole "cyborg body" thing.

[Biomega]

Why are you still going on about this?

Because you asked.

You just want to be "right" when there is no right or wrong in the sense of people having personal opinions.

*cough* And this, dear psychology students, is what we call "projection". Now let us move on to lesson 2, the eminent symptoms of severe narcissism...

This isn't an issue of misunderstanding.

You've demonstrated sufficiently that in many cases it absolutely is, since I've had to explain things to you several times - up to a dozen plus times, in some cases. And this is just for you to UNDERSTAND what I'm talking about, not to AGREE with it. You kept on repeatedly misrepresenting or contradicting what I said, so it's either understanding that's the issue, or it's you DELIBERATELY refusing to engage honestly. You can take your pick. And all this is happening BEFORE we get to a point where we would agree or disagree.

You aren't convincing me that my position is wrong because it isn't wrong.

And that's not my goal, not really.

What I want is to hear you DEFEND your position with ARGUMENTS.

Because all you've done so far is throw out tautologies or unsubstantiated claims. Your entire "argument" has effectively become "but this isn't how it is in the text, stop trying to convince me it is", which is not only NOT what I ever argued but is also a circular argument in its entirety.

I've asked you before to just give us REASONS instead of hollow truisms, and so far you haven't.

And you refuse to simple agree to disagree

That's not usually something I find fruitful. It's a cop-out to end a conversation, not a valid result from an argument. It's usually brought up by people attempting to elevate a position they can't defend to a position that doesn't NEED TO BE defended because it's just "a matter of opinion". Which is bullshit.

The only time this is valid is when it's not actually an argument. You can say "I like chocolate" and someone else can say "I hate chocolate", but that's not an argument; that's just a juxtaposition of preferences.

If YOUR position is "I just don't like black people in fantasy", then there's not much to discuss. You're free to hold that preference, and I may find it abhorrent but I can't really refute it because it's not an argument, it's just a preference. If instead, however, you want to argue "I think black people shouldn't be in fantasy/in Tolkien/in whatever" then that is something you need to BACK ARGUMENTATIVELY. It's not just a preference, and so wanting to just hold that position unchallenged and unquestioned is not a valid claim; or it needs to be turned into a preference, in which case we're back to the first one.

Rather than going on and on about your opinions.

These are not opinions in the sense of preference; they're not just position I hold because I like them, they're positions I hold because I have good reason to do so, and I've GIVEN those reasons.

If you want to refute them, give BETTER REASONS, not just tautologies and personal preferences.

Your opinion does not trump my argument. You want to attack an argument, bring another argument. Going "well but I just have a different opinion!" disqualifies you from that kind of discourse, and relegates you to an entirely different discourse.

If all you want to say is "this is what I think, don't care what you think I'm just letting people know my opinion and I'm not interested in what they think about it" then cool, we can live with that. Air your grievances, garner your attention, and then quietly go away.

Again, the obvious fact here is that you don't care as much about being faithful to the source material as I do.

REALLY, YOU THINK SO?

Again, I disagree with you.

You sure you want to disagree with that statement in particular? Because it's trivial to prove true. I'm not here to tell you what to argue, but you definitely picked something there on the level of "rain is wet".

Why do you feel the need to keep explaining yourself like I don't understand you?

Because your replies demonstrate that you either don't understand, or do understand but are deliberately ignoring it and trying to make contrarian points anyway.

I go with the former because the latter is not a pleasant situation for anyone.

There is only one narrative and that is the source material and there is a whole lot of work that was done by the man to lay it out.

See, saying something like this, for example, shows you didn't understand what I've said. And mind you, this is not about whether or not you AGREE with what I said; you are making an insane, disconnected point logically removed from any semblance of engagement with my actual argument. Agree or disagree, you aren't even working with what I actually SAID.

So are you actually trying to say that Tolkien did not intend that his work reflect the people and culture of ancient Britain and Europe?

No. And you asking that question is ANOTHER demonstration of how completely you do not understand my point. Not that you DISAGREE with it, but that you don't UNDERSTAND it.

Now you are going to argue that saying whether skin color is "relevant" is different than saying that it is arbitrary.

Yes. That's how language works.

You may not agree with it, but words mean different things, and "relevant" and "arbitrary" are not antonyms. That's just how English functions.

I'm sure you just want to "agree to disagree", in which case I can only say "potato fridge treble absorb refresh", which disproves your entire point and invalidates your argument; and if you don't think it does, then let's just agree to disagree.

And I say this fully cognizant of the fact that you are incapable of parsing analogies.

If the author took the time to define it and write it then it must be relevant.

And I'd love to see an argument for this that isn't circular.

Your entire position is "it's important because they wrote it; after all, they wrote it because it's important".

Do you have anything other than tautologies to offer?

You just keep going in circles trying to argue against that simple point.

I'm sure the irony about circularity must be apparent even to you.

Yes it is. Because why are you spending so much time explaining to me about what is "relevant" or what is "arbitrary" when doing an adaptation?

I'm not using the word "arbitrary", YOU are. And you keep using it, and inserting it in ways that suggest I use it; I DO NOT. And, once again: "relevant" and "arbitrary" are not antonyms.

Stop trying to twist my argument into something it isn't.

I don't agree that this is a red herring.

Then argue against it.

Just going "nuh-uh!" is not a refutation of an argument. You haven't brought any argument against my case that wasn't tautological.

If your position is simply "I disagree and I don't need to explain myself" then just fuck off, because you're not interested in discussion you just want people to recognize your existence. Hereby recognized. Now scurry away.

Somehow you don't understand how people in the same family tree would share traits like skin color, meaning there wouldn't be just one person popping up with a certain skin color if everyone else in the family has a different skin color.

Yeeeees. That was the case discussed here. And my answer is "Cool, in that case don't just change one, change a whole bunch. Then this problem goes away."

We've come full circle. Again. Seems to be a theme with you. See this is what I mean by lack of understanding, you are going through a whole dance just to arrive where we started.

The argument this whole time was that changes to the source material don't mean that it isn't an adaptation.
And that it can still be considered an adaptation with "good" writing and "good" casting.
Now you object to the word "good".

Another example of you not understanding something on a very fundamental level.

No one is "objecting to the word 'good'". The problem is the CATEGORY ERROR you are committing.

I was talking about the LABEL "adaptation". You suddenly turned this into a discussion about the QUALITY of an adaptation.

Those are separate discussions. I know you hate analogies, but here's one to make things clearer:

Me: "I don't care if you call it 'car' or 'vehicle' or whatever, I'm just talking about things with wheels that move people around and what you call them doesn't really matter to me."

You: "I don't get how you can say leather seats don't make for a better car, they clearly do!"

THOSE ARE TWO SEPARATE DISCUSSIONS - one is about "what is a car?" and one is about "what is a GOOD car?". YOU CAN'T JUST PRETEND THESE ARE TALKING ABOUT THE SAME THING, EVEN IF SEPARATELY EACH HAS MERIT AS A DISCUSSION.

We gucci on that now?

Now you sit here and claim that wasn't the point.

Let's just go back to Lie.

Saves time.

Now it is about the word "blue". Yeah that's it. I don't understand what you mean by blue elves.

This is actually fascinating.

Have you seen, like, a specialist about this.

You seem to be genuinely incapable of understanding analogies. Like on a physical level. Bizarre.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

Can we end the discussion on Black Dwarves and such? There's no new angle to be had here. It's the exact same arguments over and over again.

[VMSmith]

Can we end the discussion on Black Dwarves and such? There's no new angle to be had here. It's the exact same arguments over and over again.

Interestingly, I just saw an interview with Sophia Nomvete, who plays Disa, the dwarf in question. During the interview, she pointed out how important this film is for representation and that it is then a redress of balance in the world.

She also made mention of her ethnicity more than once. I'm guessing if the actors themselves are talking about the importance of the ethnic casting choices then it's fair game for everyone else to talk about those choices as well.

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Scarlett Johanssen in GITS should be valued for her performance, not her skintone. Skintone should not be a means of measurement for a movie. If people have a problem with it, it is nothing more than a hangup.

I would agree. Yet there are a number of people in this thread claiming that if there aren't enough minorities in a film then it's racist.

Also, my personal favorite was the complaints about Finn Jones taking an Asian role It highlights that the people pushing this care nothing for the stories and only for their agenda.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

Interestingly, I just saw an interview with Sophia Nomvete, who plays Disa, the dwarf in question. During the interview, she pointed out how important this film is for representation and that it is then a redress of balance in the world.

She also made mention of her ethnicity more than once. I'm guessing if the actors themselves are talking about the importance of the ethnic casting choices then it's fair game for everyone else to talk about those choices as well.

Sure, can you bring something to the argument that hasn't already been discussed over the last 50 pages?

[VMSmith]

Sure, can you bring something to the argument that hasn't already been discussed over the last 50 pages?

What a nasty way to say that something has already been covered, assuming someone has read every post in a thread.

But I've come to expect nastiness from you folks, so it's not a surprise.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

What a nasty way to say that something has already been covered, assuming someone has read every post in a thread.

But I've come to expect nastiness from you folks, so it's not a surprise.

So, what you're saying is "no...I don't have anything new to add to the thread...so I'll just repeat what I've already said over and over again"

[Terracresta]

I find it amusing when certain people complain about to few works of a certain genre to be aimed at women, certain people of colour (Asians, especially Japanese are doing quite well for themselves and are seeing Anime charakters as Japanese, not Western) and so on.
Just a suggestion: Maybe more women and people of colour should start writing fantasy novels that become so successful among their peers but also among other groups, even if to a lesser degree, that they will be made into movies...

Self-publishing nowadays is easier then ever. Not just for games but also for (e)books.

It's not like new white male authors will get their works published by companies automatically and without any questions asked.
Was there a big market for fantasy novels when Tolkien wrote it? How hard was it for him to get it published? Was it an instant success or did it slowly build up a fan base over time?

[Krawu]

To be very honest, this is a hangup rather than any substantial means to 'measure' a show or movie with a fantasy or historic setting. White and Brown-washing had little to do with Avatar being a poor movie. It was hurt by its poor pacing, bad script and sub-par acting more than anything to do with visual appearances.

Just the same, I could point at any portrayal of Aladdin as being 'unfaithful' to its original story, but no one would care the actor is being 'brown-washed' with Middle Eastern actors even though the character is supposed to be Chinese. Like, no one has this hangup, mostly because they don't even know it's a thing. It's really not worth making a point of even, since no modern depiction of Aladdin is expected to have a Chinese actor as its main lead even if that's how it was in the original story (which most people don't even know of)

As long as the depiction is respectful, I don't see any problem in having a white actor in a role of Asian (Ancient One in Dr. Strange was absolutely fine), and it doesn't really make the movie any better or worse for it. Like, does the Ancient One really need to be an Asian actor just because they were Asian in the comics? I don't think so. Of course, everything is context sensitive. Black Panther, Shang Chi; these are very specific characters we're talking about where it wouldn't make sense to race swap, because they have very close ties to a particular culture which is important to their stories. But something like a White woman portraying the Ancient One or a Black man portraying Baron Mordo doesn't really make or break Dr. Strange, especially when the Mystic Arts are already meant to surpass any single culture.

Sure, if a movie is fundamentally bad casting choices will do little to redeem it. If the audience knows nothing of the source material then sure, they (probably) won't care.
But the geeks will. And you can always make a bad thing worse by alienating the hardcore fans. And you certainly can't expect the passionate to stay quiet when they're discontent.

My point is that wanting an actor of a certain race to play a preestablished fictional character isn't racism, it's a wish or even a demand for the creators to be faithful to the original vision. Going against this signals a lack of respect or knowledge or both by whoever was in charge of casting at best and the entire creative and executive team of a project at worst.

Especially since this only ever seems to go in one direction. I'm sure if someone decided to cast a white actor for the characters of Blade or Spawn or Morpheus there would be article upon article lamenting the "suppression" and "erasure" of marginalized communities from the public eye. And while I think that point and narrative is a bunch of bollocks, I would agree with the fact that it's bad to make these changes. Not because I hate seeing white people on TV but because I don't like any race swaps or sudden diversity in preestablished characters or settings. This is why people are mad about "diverse" Hobbits, Elves and Dwarves.

And it's not even the Jackson movies that established these races, it was Tolkien himself. He described exactly how and where these races looked and lived.
So if the showrunners of Rings of Power want to claim that the show is merely inspired by Tolkiens works and take creative freedoms they can't also claim that they absolutely respect them and that this is something Tolkien himself would've written. They certainly can't expect the Tolkien fanatics to be enthusiastic.

And this lack of care and respect for what is almost a religion to a lot of folks is mirrored by the extensive use of bad-looking CGI, the cheap props and the actors most of which have described themselves as "activists" in interviews and who have vowed publicly to bring their activism to the screen.

[Adamas102]

...So changing their skin color is not required for popularity among a diverse audience.

I don't think I've seen anyone say that stories with white characters can't be popular with diverse audiences. I certainly haven't said it. Nor have I said that all stories NEED to have increased diversity. This kinda just seems like you've been tilting at windmills this whole time.

What most people are arguing against in this thread is the idea that this particular story NEEDS to NOT have any diversity of skin tone.

Amazon and other companies absolutely have diversity mandates for including characters of different ethnic backgrounds in their shows. Which specifically results in them changing characters in stories that may not have been diverse. And they have said this themselves in interviews and press releases.

Amazon's diversity policy, which they updated and released last year, is public and very easy to track down. The 30% diversity line, which has been misrepresented by posters like rogoth several times, has nothing to do with casting and is specifically about director, producer, writer roles and is NOT a mandate. The part that's specifically about actors is what I mentioned, that the aim is to have actors match the roles that they are cast in in terms of gender, nationality, ethnicity, disability, and so on. Again, these are goals, not mandates (there really is a difference).

If Tolkien's work is already popular among modern audiences then it doesn't need "more diversity" for modern audiences. Most of the time this is coming from within the studio and/or certain leftist academics who help guide and drive these policies but not necessarily from the general public. This obsession with putting x characters into shows set in Europe is not coming from actual "diverse" artists and creators and it is not coming from the general public either. Sure, they can do it, but that doesn't mean it will be more popular just because of that among the public at large.

Again, it's not about diversity being NEEDED. It's about these stories not NEEDING to be as all-white despite that being what some people expect.

What you describe is not Tolkien. The 3 houses of the Edain from the first age are all described in ways modeled on cultures from ancient Europe who were white (Goths, Nordics, Vikings, Saxons, and mostly Welsh). All of the men of Middle Earth of course were not white, but those who joined with the Elves and fought against Morgoth were definitely white. And from this alliance came the marriage of Edain and Elf that produced the line of Half Elves who would go on to found the line of kings of Numenor. Other groups of men existed in other parts of Middle Earth but they were not the ones primarily involved in the main stories of Tolkien which surround the Elves, the Edain, the Numenoreans and other groups of men in these regions around Northern Middle Earth. That also includes the Dwarves as well who also may have been diverse across Middle Earth with some looking similar to Mongols and other eastern cultures, but those were not the main ones featured in the stories of Tolkien. Just like European mythology concerns mainly peoples of Northern Europe and therefore involves gods and other mythological entities with white skin. Of course diversity exists on planet earth, but that does not mean Northern European history and mythology was diverse 2,000 years ago. In general the continent of Middle Earth loosely reflects the real world earth were Northern Middle Earth is Northern Europe and Southern Middle Earth is Africa and Eastern Middle Earth is Asia. But most of the main events of Tolkien are set in Northern Middle Earth. If they really wanted to do diversity in this context they would have explored more about the cultures of Southern or Eastern Middle Earth which Tolkien covered far less than Northern Middle Earth.

What do you mean this isn't Tolkien? It's his words, his dates, his descriptions (or lack thereof). Just because you don't like the implications doesn't mean it isn't true.

The idea that the people of Middle-earth are meant to be directly modeled off medieval Europeans is completely fictitious. Tolkien certainly never made the comparisons you're claiming. When asked about the clothing of the peoples of Middle-earth he said "I do not know the detail of clothing. I visualize with great clarity and detail scenery and 'natural' objects, but not artefacts." If he had intended the peoples of Middle-earth to strongly resemble the Goths, or Vikings, or Saxons, or Welsh, he would certainly have known what they would have worn. The only examples he gave were for the Rohirrim ("The Rohirrim were not 'mediaeval', in our sense. The styles of the Bayeux Tapestry (made in England) fit them well enough") and the Numenorians ("The Númenóreans of Gondor were proud, peculiar, and archaic, and I think are best pictured in (say) Egyptian terms. In many ways they resembled 'Egyptians'"). "Fit well enough" and "best pictured in" are certainly not how one would firmly ground those groups of people to a historical analogue.

If you think Tolkien thought it important to keep a fictional version of ancient Europe white then you should look up his thoughts on Nordicism. "Not Nordic, please! A word I personally dislike; it is associated, though of French origin, with racialist theories. Geographically Northern is usually better. But examination will show that even this is inapplicable (geographically or spiritually) to 'Middle-earth."

"Auden has asserted that for me 'the North is a sacred direction'. That is not true. The North-west of Europe, where I (and most of my ancestors) have lived, has my affection, as a man's home should. I love its atmosphere, and know more of its histories and languages than I do of other pans; but it is not 'sacred'"

You also have your geography of NW Middle-earth wrong, since Tolkien referenced at least a couple times that the portion of Middle-earth where the action of his stories took place would correspond with a continent that stretched from England all the way across to Turkey. So no, it's not just Northern Europe. "The action of the story takes place in the North-west of 'Middle-earth', equivalent in latitude to the coastlands of Europe and the north shores of the Mediterranean. But this is not a purely 'Nordic' area in any sense. If Hobbiton and Rivendell are taken (as intended) to be at about the latitude of Oxford, then Minas Tirith, 600 miles south, is at about the latitude of Florence. The Mouths of Anduin and the ancient city of Pelargir are at about the latitude of ancient Troy."

The last part to touch on is your confusion between myth and history. Myth isn't "alternate history", it's more like "alternate prehistory". The stories that people made up to explain the time before everything they knew existed. Tolkien understood this, which is why he deliberately set his legendarium in the Neolithic era (6,000-16,000 years ago), which means if you really care to base his characters on the people of ancient Europe then we're talking about a Europe before pale skin.

May I say that all this is 'mythical', and not any kind of new religion or vision. As far as I know it is merely an imaginative invention, to express, in the only way I can, some of my (dim) apprehensions of the world. All I can say is that, if it were 'history', it would be difficult to fit the lands and events (or 'cultures') into such evidence as we possess, archaeological or geological, concerning the nearer or remoter part of what is now called Europe; though the Shire, for instance, is expressly stated to have been in this region. I could have fitted things in with greater verisimilitude, if the story had not become too far developed, before the question ever occurred to me. I doubt if there would have been much gain; and I hope the, evidently long but undefined, gap* in time between the Fall of Barad-dûr and our Days is sufficient for 'literary credibility', even for readers acquainted with what is known or surmised of 'pre-history'

*I imagine the gap to be about 6000 years

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And it's not even the Jackson movies that established these races, it was Tolkien himself. He described exactly how and where these races looked and lived.

Not quite true. While Tolkien went into great detail about the history, languages, and scenery of the world, his descriptions of the peoples and cultures are pretty light.

The skin color of the dwarves was never stated, and as far as hobbits go the only mention of skin tone was in relation to the Harfoots mentioned in the prologue of LotR ("browner of skin" than other hobbits). With no baseline for either of these groups there's really no reason why they can't be represented by the whole range of human skin colors.

As for elves, the descriptions of fair skin were brought up only in relation to named elves. As such most people assume that ALL elves were thus fair of skin, but again they're never described as such as a whole. Another way of looking at it would be why would Tolkien feel the need to point out the fair skin of each elf character he introduced if it was simply a common trait across the entire race?
While Tolkien admitted that there is some murky space between whether elves are actually human or not (given that the two "races" could produce offspring together), given their origins, longevity, and fantastical powers it's also pretty common to consider them entirely non-hum and as such they don't have to adhere to the biological factors that delineate human skin tones. It's not beyond reason that there could be elves with darker skin tones, groups or individuals that Tolkien simply didn't describe in full. As far as I know the skin color of the silvan elves is never referenced so if you can break away from the fallacy that elvish skin must work the exact same way as human skin then having more skin tone variety there works just fine.

[Mace]

To be very honest, this is a hangup rather than any substantial means to 'measure' a show or movie with a fantasy or historic setting. White and Brown-washing had little to do with Avatar being a poor movie. It was hurt by its poor pacing, bad script and sub-par acting more than anything to do with visual appearances.

Just the same, I could point at any portrayal of Aladdin as being 'unfaithful' to its original story, but no one would care the actor is being 'brown-washed' with Middle Eastern actors even though the character is supposed to be Chinese. Like, no one has this hangup, mostly because they don't even know it's a thing. It's really not worth making a point of even, since no modern depiction of Aladdin is expected to have a Chinese actor as its main lead even if that's how it was in the original story (which most people don't even know of)

As long as the depiction is respectful, I don't see any problem in having a white actor in a role of Asian (Ancient One in Dr. Strange was absolutely fine), and it doesn't really make the movie any better or worse for it. Like, does the Ancient One really need to be an Asian actor just because they were Asian in the comics? I don't think so. Of course, everything is context sensitive. Black Panther, Shang Chi; these are very specific characters we're talking about where it wouldn't make sense to race swap, because they have very close ties to a particular culture which is important to their stories. But something like a White woman portraying the Ancient One or a Black man portraying Baron Mordo doesn't really make or break Dr. Strange, especially when the Mystic Arts are already meant to surpass any single culture.

Agreeed, and it is even good, I would watch it.

I do suspect, the reason why many of these moves are bad is because they seem more focused on the messaging and politics than investing time in actually writing a good script.

Equally they throw more money and preparation into CGI and post production - while failing to seriously vet the writing of a good script - some of these companies literally give people a day to write a script for a movie.

I mean this is the most important aspect of a movie, and it's just considered meh, you can do it in a wook or a few days - and hey wonder why it sucks.

Most of these shows today don't suck because they are diverse, they suck because they are terrible - and we suspect the reason tehya re terrible is because activists are writing them to insert their messages rather than these studios either hiring actually good writers/creators or giving them the correct time they need to do it well. Instead all they seem to care about is virtue signallig. Now this may just be the marketing doing it's job overly well - giving us this impression, however, at the end of the day, if the movie or show sucks, it sucks.

[Tanaria]

Agreeed, and it is even good, I would watch it.

I do suspect, the reason why many of these moves are bad is because they seem more focused on the messaging and politics than investing time in actually writing a good script.

Equally they throw more money and preparation into CGI and post production - while failing to seriously vet the writing of a good script - some of these companies literally give people a day to write a script for a movie.

I mean this is the most important aspect of a movie, and it's just considered meh, you can do it in a wook or a few days - and hey wonder why it sucks.

Most of these shows today don't suck because they are diverse, they suck because they are terrible - and we suspect the reason tehya re terrible is because activists are writing them to insert their messages rather than these studios either hiring actually good writers/creators or giving them the correct time they need to do it well. Instead all they seem to care about is virtue signallig. Now this may just be the marketing doing it's job overly well - giving us this impression, however, at the end of the day, if the movie or show sucks, it sucks.

I don't get how they can just ghost Peter Jackson, Fran Walsh and Phillipa Boynes when they are the people you want on your team.

I also think they're rushing this to get to the parts that they think the people REALLY want to see.
I mean, why not take our time with series one? Why rush to Ar Pharazon and Tar Miriel? I understand that these two are important regarding the downfall of Numenor but what about the rise of Numenor? the Guild of Ventures? The building of Umbar? Meetings the natives from Harad?

I get it, because I'd like to put faces to names for some of those Kings Men Numenoreans and show their fall from grace after Numenor's sinking - but there's no need to rush it like this. On top of the virture signalling, the last thing the Tolkien fanbase needs is for the Second age to be rushed like this. Tell as fuller story as you can, not bits.
I'm so worried about what they're going to do with the Witch King of Angmar, Khamul and the other Nazgul as they've hinted as seeing their back stories. What is going to happen to them, prior to becoming wraiths? I actually dread the thought.

[Triceron]

Most of these shows today don't suck because they are diverse, they suck because they are terrible - and we suspect the reason tehya re terrible is because activists are writing them to insert their messages rather than these studios either hiring actually good writers/creators or giving them the correct time they need to do it well. Instead all they seem to care about is virtue signallig. Now this may just be the marketing doing it's job overly well - giving us this impression, however, at the end of the day, if the movie or show sucks, it sucks.

Except you're jumping the gun by assuming your hangups are the main reason they are failing, rather than defaulting to a more reasonable explanation that the overall production was just poorly justified or made overall.

Like, does the virtue signalling actually take priority in any of the examples brought up here? Did Airbender and GITS really fail because of virtue signalling? I don't think so at all. Neither did Dragonball Evolution fail because of having a white actor lead. There would have been just as many problems with the movie if they'd cast an Asian actor as the lead, let's get this completely out there.

These are all cases of bad shows being bad, bad movies being bad. There are plenty of series where diversity happens where it did not in the original, and the series were good because they were good. Battlestar Galactica comes to mind as an example. Even as far back as 10 years ago, people were criticizing making one of the leads a female, and people had major hangups over Starbuck's casting. Those issues don't even matter today in retrospect and no one gives credence to those former hangups.

[Tanaria]

As I understand it, they all but had to, from a legal standpoint of having to keep the movies and the series separate.

As far as looking at the scripts, I didn't hear anything about legalities as they were originally hoping that either Fran or Phillipa would be part of the script writing.
(I can't remember which one, but I did hear they wanted one of them to join the script writing team and who wouldn't want them? Phillipa managed to write the whole introduction to the FotR and condensed a large ton of work to a few minutes of seriously amazing script work.)

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Except you're jumping the gun by assuming your hangups are the main reason they are failing, rather than defaulting to a more reasonable explanation that the overall production was just poorly justified or made overall.

Like, does the virtue signalling actually take priority in any of the examples brought up here? Did Airbender and GITS really fail because of virtue signalling? I don't think so at all. Neither did Dragonball Evolution fail because of having a white actor lead. There would have been just as many problems with the movie if they'd cast an Asian actor as the lead, let's get this completely out there.

These are all cases of bad shows being bad, bad movies being bad. There are plenty of series where diversity happens where it did not in the original, and the series were good because they were good. Battlestar Galactica comes to mind as an example. Even as far back as 10 years ago, people were criticizing making one of the leads a female, and people had major hangups over Starbuck's casting. Those issues don't even matter today in retrospect and no one gives credence to those former hangups.

The virtue stuff is the least of my issues, but it isn't helping.

My main issue is that the project seems rushed. We're talking about the Second age - not, the immediate build up to Numenor's fall.
What about the first King of Numeanor who is Elrond's brother? The Guild of Venturers who came later? Numeanor establishing connections with the Haradrim and building Umbar? Starting with what seems to be, Ar Pharazon and Tar Miriel - it's like so much lore has been glossed over.

Those events that I have mentioned are so important to what we know in the Third Age. I also don't need to see Durin's Bane in a story revolving around the Second Age as we know he didn't make his appearance until well into the Third Age.

My question is how much of the Second Age are we actually getting, because I'm seeing a hell of a lot of Third Age stuff, which I was expecting - but not on this level, at this time.