1. #2441
    Quote Originally Posted by Al Gorefiend View Post
    How am I mocking diversity? Legless just sounds like Legolas. Blame Hollywood if you're upset able-bodied actors are acting to be paraplegic.
    Cowards that can't even defend the horseshit they post are adorable.

  2. #2442
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    Not sure if this is supposed to be a post-ironic shitpost or not.
    I'm personally not even sure why a black James Bond would be so bad anyway. Every new Bond is explicitly a different take on the archetype so it's not like Daniel Craig's bond suddenly looks like a black guy for no reason, it's a different Bond. The only common denominator between Bonds was that they're from the British Isles. He's been English, Scottish, Irish, Blonde, but having a skin color that is, if not common, at least not that rare in the Isles is just not OK?
    It is all that is left unsaid upon which tragedies are built -Kreia

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  3. #2443
    Quote Originally Posted by SirDjord View Post
    We made a promise to ourselves at the beginning of the process that we weren't going to put any of our own politics, our own messages or our own themes into these movies. In a way we were trying to make these films for him (the author) not for ourselves. - Peter Jackson


    "It feelt only natural to us that an adaption of the authors work reflect what our world actually looks like" - RoP creators

    Nuff said.
    Then Peter Jackson went on to create films that "eviscerated the story" to make "action films for 15 to 25 year olds," and replaced the theme of "war is bad" with "war is awesome with a big enough special effects budget, check out my radical surfing elf!"

    BTW skin colour is a casting decision, not about "politics, messages or themes."

  4. #2444
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    Do you mean would it matter to the story of an isolationist African nation that deliberately avoided the colonial powers? I wish the fake-fans who think up these stupid examples would do a little bit of research before blurting crap like "bUt WhAt If BlAcK pAnThEr WaS wHiTe?"
    Most these people can't stand a few black people in any fantasy shows do you really think they know of any other black media to use an example? Black panther is so main stream that they can't help but have heard of it which is why its all they got.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  5. #2445
    I think arguing that Tolkien didn’t intend his main characters to be white is being obtuse. The man was very much a product of his time, being an English professor. Yeah, in his mind those characters very much were white.

    The other side to the argument, is wether or not it’s important for the showrunners to be faithful to that part of Tolkien. For any adaptation you make adjustments, some you like, some you don’t.

    I don’t care if some elf is black, or if hobbits are more dusky than expected. None of that changes anything in the narrative.

    If Tolkien had written about the political struggles between different skin colours within lothlorien, then changing those skin colours would be changing the narrative. It’s not a focus of his stories though, so ask yourself why it’s so important to you. If the answer is “because that’s what the book implies” than you shouldn’t watch any kind of adaptation, because there are ALWAYS deviations.

  6. #2446
    Quote Originally Posted by Veggie50 View Post
    I think arguing that Tolkien didn’t intend his main characters to be white is being obtuse. The man was very much a product of his time, being an English professor. Yeah, in his mind those characters very much were white.
    Exactly this. The region of Middle Earth his stories focused on took place basically in England, of our world just in the distant past. England way before the Romans or even the Norse were carting slaves from other regions of the world into the area. England before it was anything even remotely close to being a melting pot of peoples.

    Why wouldn't they all have similar melanin levels in their skin? It was the same climate, it was the same pool of the different races for millennia. That they didn't all look similar is what would be weird, which is precisely why most* (admittedly there are some racist cunts blathering about, but they're just a vocal minority as usual) people are raising a brow at the choices in the show. Not because they're racist, but because it doesn't make a whole hell lot of sense.

    It's like complaining that a story taking place in China was exclusively Chinese, or at least predominately Chinese with a few Mongols, Koreans, Japanese, and other neighboring peoples scattered here and there. You know, which is why people like those white knights in this thread bicker and bitch about the "white washing" of movies when white guys are cast in those types of movies. Precisely because it doesn't make sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by UnifiedDivide View Post
    Less than a month to go... wonder how much more of a festering shit pile this thread can get when we finally get there.
    Is this really all you do in threads?

  7. #2447
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocksteady 87 View Post
    Why wouldn't they all have similar melanin levels in their skin? It was the same climate, it was the same pool of the different races for millennia. That they didn't all look similar is what would be weird, which is precisely why most* (admittedly there are some racist cunts blathering about, but they're just a vocal minority as usual) people are raising a brow at the choices in the show. Not because they're racist, but because it doesn't make a whole hell lot of sense.
    As opposed to dragons and elves and dwarves, all of which make PERFECT biological sense, just like how melanin does.

    Oh wait, you're saying you're fine with those being completely made-up stuff with no connection to the actual mechanics of real-world biology?

    Isn't that the darnedest thing.

  8. #2448
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    As opposed to dragons and elves and dwarves, all of which make PERFECT biological sense, just like how melanin does.
    Within the context of the world-building done by an educated professor (and with the exception of dragons since, you know, they're more like a lizard than a human), yes. Yes it does make perfect biological sense. All four of the major races in that part of Middle-Earth did, in fact, live and evolve in that part of Middle-Earth.

    Which is why other races from different regions of the world, most notably the south, tended towards darker skin colors. Because, you know, that's how skin colors work in humans and human-adjacent types over long periods of time/natural evolution. The colder northern climes require lighter skin in order to get enough vitamin D and the like.

    And as I said in a previous post, the only one that really doesn't make much sense is dwarves. But they should be tending towards albinism rather than light beigey skin, so them having darker-skinned members is even more illogical.
    Last edited by Rocksteady 87; 2022-08-07 at 10:12 PM.

  9. #2449
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocksteady 87 View Post
    Within the context of the world-building done by an educated professor
    You mean the same professor that only ever mentioned skin color in passing and in very few spots, leaving it undefined in most places and never attaching to it any kind of plot significance or narrative role whatsoever? That one?

  10. #2450
    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    I'm personally not even sure why a black James Bond would be so bad anyway. Every new Bond is explicitly a different take on the archetype so it's not like Daniel Craig's bond suddenly looks like a black guy for no reason, it's a different Bond. The only common denominator between Bonds was that they're from the British Isles. He's been English, Scottish, Irish, Blonde, but having a skin color that is, if not common, at least not that rare in the Isles is just not OK?
    Yeah, I don't care. Didn't they plan to cast Idris Elba as James Bond or was that merely a rumour?
    The absolute state of Warcraft lore in 2021:
    Kyrians: We need to keep chucking people into the Maw because it's our job.
    Also Kyrians: Why is the Maw growing stronger despite all our efforts?

  11. #2451
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    You mean the same professor that only ever mentioned skin color in passing and in very few spots, leaving it undefined in most places and never attaching to it any kind of plot significance or narrative role whatsoever? That one?
    That would be the ones, yes. Except that when it was mentioned, that was the defining. Unless one is so dim-witted that they have to be told the same information over and over and over and over and over and over and over again before it sinks into their skull.

    He's also the same professor who stated in no uncertain terms that the works took place on our world, in the distant past, with all of his descriptions very clearly taking place in northwestern Europe. So sure, such an educated person who put tons of thought into his world would be all "fuck it, dey's all kinds of racial archetypes jus so I don't piss off Biomega in the future, lulz. I jus won't mention it cause, yanno, even tho I spend 20 pages describin' a single blade of grass, I'd leave sumfin like that out."
    Last edited by Rocksteady 87; 2022-08-07 at 10:19 PM.

  12. #2452
    Old God Al Gorefiend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by s_bushido View Post
    Cowards that can't even defend the horseshit they post are adorable.
    Literally no idea what you're on about. You act like a handicapped person being a hero is so outlandish someone who brings it up must be mockingly.

  13. #2453
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocksteady 87 View Post
    Within the context of the world-building done by an educated professor (and with the exception of dragons since, you know, they're more like a lizard than a human), yes. Yes it does make perfect biological sense. All four of the major races in that part of Middle-Earth did, in fact, live and evolve in that part of Middle-Earth.

    Which is why other races from different regions of the world, most notably the south, tended towards darker skin colors. Because, you know, that's how skin colors work in humans and human-adjacent types over long periods of time/natural evolution. The colder northern climes require lighter skin in order to get enough vitamin D and the like.
    Jesus Christ. These races were created by magic, not evolution. For the first X hundred years of the life of the elves, there wasn't even a sun. But please, tell me more about how their skin color matters in the slightest.

  14. #2454
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocksteady 87 View Post
    Within the context of the world-building done by an educated professor (and with the exception of dragons since, you know, they're more like a lizard than a human), yes. Yes it does make perfect biological sense. All four of the major races in that part of Middle-Earth did, in fact, live and evolve in that part of Middle-Earth.

    Which is why other races from different regions of the world, most notably the south, tended towards darker skin colors. Because, you know, that's how skin colors work in humans and human-adjacent types over long periods of time/natural evolution. The colder northern climes require lighter skin in order to get enough vitamin D and the like.

    And as I said in a previous post, the only one that really doesn't make much sense is dwarves. But they should be tending towards albinism rather than light beigey skin, so them having darker-skinned members is even more illogical.
    The major races didn't evolve anywhere, Elves awoke under the stars, Dwarves were hand-crafted by a Valar and awoke shortly after the Elves, Men awoke with the first sunrise (except in the unwritten version where it was much earlier) and Orcs were corrupted from an existing species of Incarnate (nominally Elves though Tolkien had an issue with them possessing immortal Elven souls and preferred the idea of them being corrupt humans, hence the unwritten version of them awakening earlier.)

    Evolution has nothing to do with the way races appear in Tolkien's Legendarium. Melanin and vitamin D are alien concepts to beings who were conceived in music before the world existed to bring harmony among the angelic entities that preceded them.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocksteady 87 View Post
    That would be the ones, yes. Except that when it was mentioned, that was the defining. Unless one is so dim-witted that they have to be told the same information over and over and over and over and over and over and over again before it sinks into their skull.

    He's also the same professor who stated in no uncertain terms that the works took place on our world, in the distant past, with all of his descriptions very clearly taking place in northwestern Europe. So sure, such an educated person who put tons of thought into his world would be all "fuck it, dey's all kinds of racial archetypes jus so I don't piss off Biomega in the future, lulz. I jus won't mention it cause, yanno, even tho I spend 20 pages describin' a single blade of grass, I'd leave sumfin like that out."
    Yeah in Tolkien's mind the stories take place in our world in the distant past, but at the same time they're stories about magic that have been filtered through the concepts of the fictional authors and translated into another language that he then pretended to translate. Also he has potatoes and tobacco existing in "Europe" in a time when the Americas may not have existed so it's hardly a 100% accurate history.

  15. #2455
    Quote Originally Posted by InfiniteCharger View Post
    I think you misunderstand what I mean by identify. Anybody can identify with LOTR as it is without seeing themselves personally in it as some native of ancient Europe with some personal tie to that history or culture. There is a difference. I can identify with Greek mythology just fine, but that doesn't mean that I identify as Greek, same with Chinese mythology, Indian mythology and other mythologies. That doesn't mean I need to literally see myself in it as part of my own self identity as a person, but of course anyone can imagine themselves as anything.
    Dude, what are you talking about? I'm not referring to people who "imagine" themselves as anything. I'm not talking about audiences who want to imagine themselves in fictional worlds. I'm talking specifically about British actors who YOU say don't count as British and cannot play in roles alongside their British counterparts.

    Anthony Hopkins (Welsh), Tom Hiddleston (English), Idris Elba (English). You see this list of actors? All of them play Norse gods in a movie together. None of them identify as Scandinavian or "natives of ancient Europe". All of them were born in Britain and are part of British culture, history, and heritage via their contributions to drama. However, you're saying that only one of them doesn't fit, and no matter how much you want to beat around the bush we know exactly why you think that.

    Quote Originally Posted by InfiniteCharger View Post
    Diversity means diverse settings, based on diverse mythologies and characters that are true to those, not just putting every culture into Tolkien.
    What the fuck... No one is "putting every culture" into Tolkien (unless you're equating culture and skin color which of course would be extraordinarily ignorant).

    Again, taking the example of Lenny Henry who is cast as a Harfoot hobbit in the show. The man was born in ENGLAND, has been KNIGHTED by the Queen, has been honored with the title Commander of the Order of the BRITISH Empire (an honor he shares with Tolkien himself) for his contributions to BRITISH drama and comedy. Lenny Henry doesn't "imagine" himself British, he IS British. Him being cast in the show isn't throwing cultures into Tolkien that don't belong because his culture is BRITISH culture.

  16. #2456
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    Yeah, I don't care. Didn't they plan to cast Idris Elba as James Bond or was that merely a rumour?
    I think so? But as much as I think he'd have nailed it, as he nails everything, he's too old for the role. James Bond is usually active for, what, almost 10 years per actor? More for some like Craig. Elba's already 50. I strongly doubt he'd commit to such a physically active role for that long. You really don't want this to be Taken where the action cuts every half second in part because the lead is just too old for this shit.
    It is all that is left unsaid upon which tragedies are built -Kreia

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  17. #2457
    By all means, explain to me why a man who put ridiculous amounts of thought into his world and storytelling, and who would spend pages describing the most mundane thing, failed to be all "oh, bee tee dubs, these guys' skins are all kinds of rando colors. Even better, since it's magic, heck, there's even green, red, blue, and purple folks running around! I just won't mentioned it, cause, you know, who cares amirite?"

    Funny how he did mention skin colors when it did matter, though. Because, for some reason, it mattered then that they were 'swart' and he felt the need to mention it. Almost like because it wasn't a normal trait or something. But, hey, fuck basic logic right?

  18. #2458
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocksteady 87 View Post
    That would be the ones, yes. Except that when it was mentioned, that was the defining.
    Not sure what you're trying to say here. I said it's undefined in most places; you reply with "but where it was mentioned, it was defined!". Yes. Yes it was. Not sure how that was ever in question since it's a self-evident truth, but sure. You're 100% correct, where he defined it he did, in fact, define it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocksteady 87 View Post
    Unless one is so dim-witted that they have to be told the same information over and over and over and over and over and over and over again before it sinks into their skull.
    Seems to be the case for you, idk. See above.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocksteady 87 View Post
    By all means, explain to me why a man who put ridiculous amounts of thought into his world and storytelling, and who would spend pages describing the most mundane thing, failed to be all "oh, bee tee dubs, these guys' skins are all kinds of rando colors.
    That's not the argument most people are making, though.

    It's "Tolkien never considered skin color important for the narrative anywhere and in any way, so nothing of substance actually changes if we have black elves or dwarves or whatever".

    No it's not the same as Tolkien wrote it, but neither are 2,000 other things in the movies and TV shows made based on his materials. Why is skin color suddenly the deal breaker, considering Tolkien himself never made it a topic of any kind and it has zero impact on the story?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocksteady 87 View Post
    Funny how he did mention skin colors when it did matter, though. Because, for some reason, it mattered then that they were 'swart' and he felt the need to mention it. Almost like because it wasn't a normal trait or something. But, hey, fuck basic logic right?
    So now we're going from "he mentioned it" to "it matters".

    What about all the OTHER details, do those matter, too? In which case you couldn't like ANY adaptation of his works, because some detail that yes Tolkien did explicitly mention is ALWAYS going to be different.

    Could it be that "it's not what he wrote" is not by itself a substantive argument at all? Or would you raise the same kind of hell for a shield that's grey instead of red, or someone who's blonde instead of brown-haired, or for a dun horse instead of a bay one, LIKE IT SAYS IN THE BOOKS, AFTER ALL?

  19. #2459
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocksteady 87 View Post
    By all means, explain to me why a man who put ridiculous amounts of thought into his world and storytelling, and who would spend pages describing the most mundane thing, failed to be all "oh, bee tee dubs, these guys' skins are all kinds of rando colors. Even better, since it's magic, heck, there's even green, red, blue, and purple folks running around! I just won't mentioned it, cause, you know, who cares amirite?"

    Funny how he did mention skin colors when it did matter, though. Because, for some reason, it mattered then that they were 'swart' and he felt the need to mention it. Almost like because it wasn't a normal trait or something. But, hey, fuck basic logic right?
    This might be news to you, but Tolkien wasn't perfect. Not as a man or as a writer. He certainly wasn't omniscient, nor did he write his books/notes/letters with the idea of dramatic adaptation in mind. He wrote literature as he knew how to, and took into consideration the norms of his time, but not every detail he wrote is important for creating an adaptation of his work from one medium to another. For something he dedicated "to England" it should actually be kinda nice to see that the majority of the cast for the show is in fact British, participating in a dramatic adaptation of part of THEIR history and heritage (whether or not Tolkien had each of them in mind when he wrote).

  20. #2460
    Quote Originally Posted by Adamas102 View Post
    This might be news to you, but Tolkien wasn't perfect, not as a man or as a writer. He certainly wasn't omniscient, nor did he write his books/notes/letters with the idea of dramatic adaptation in mind. Not every detail he wrote is important for creating an adaptation of his work from one medium to another, and for something he dedicated "to England" it should actually be kinda nice to see that the majority of the cast for the show is in fact British, participating in a dramatic adaptation of part of THEIR history and heritage.
    Stop trying to misdirect with bullshit and answer the questions that were asked.

    Or from now on, dwarves are officially purple and green plaid-skinned. He didn't say they were and, lol, magic! So there you go. Definitive.

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