Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[Adamas102]

Except in this case, we are talking about Tolkien and again, not to beat a dead horse, the issue is whether Tolkien's narrative was intended to be based around people looking similar to those in ancient England and therefore white, especially for the Elves and Numenoreans. I believe it was and that is the crux of the issue. Other people may want to interpret it differently but my point is that there is nothing inherently racist if that is what he intended.

Except that given the time span he set his legendarium in, the ancient peoples of Europe were only just developing the genetic markers that contributed to their skin lightening. So the men of the 1st and 2nd Age should actually be mostly dark or tanned skinned.

Tolkien knew he wanted to set his stories on Earth, but he was going for pre-historic mythology, so the idea that he was aiming to encapsulate the ACTUAL Europeans of that time (which would all have been nomadic tribes of hunter gatherers) is silly. He also knew that the landmass he created didn't match up to what Europe looked like at any point in time. He knew that the time and place he was setting his stories in were completely imaginary, but rooted in the familiarity of Earth.

When asked what sort of clothing the people of Middle-earth wore he didn't say "that's easy, 10th century English clothing". He said he didn't know, but that it would be quite varied depending on location and custom and referenced the Bayeux Tapestry (11th century Normand horsemen) for Rohan and ancient Egypt for Numenor (specifically detailing the crown of Gondor as resembling that of Egyptian Pharaohs so more indicative of people who lived hundreds of years before the Romans even arrived in the Britain).

[Lorgar Aurelian]

I wonder why, after so long with it not really even being mentioned in the thread outside of a handful of times months ago, there is this (seemingly sudden) massive push on "alternative history for England" As I recall, it was simply meant to be a "fictional place with its own history, people, and languages," and isn't meant to be placed into our own history, anthropologically speaking.

As an Englishman, am I meant to care more about it supposedly being an "alternate history" for my country?

Likely some YouTuber or outrage monger mentioned it recently that tends to be the case when you see multiple people brining up the same point which wasn’t widespread for months of prior discussion.

[Orby]

Holy walls of text...

I am too tired of the discussion to read it all... its all blurred lines to me lol

I just want to talk about something else about that show that doesn't involve the same discussion for the last 40 pages lol

Likely some YouTuber or outrage monger mentioned it recently that tends to be the case when you see multiple people brining up the same point which wasn’t widespread for months of prior discussion.

I keep blocking those youtubers... they keep popping up, only because I have some Tolkien themed channels that talk about lore YouTube also thinks I want some angry white dude talk about why RoP is a hot mess recommended to me too.

[UnifiedDivide]

Likely some YouTuber or outrage monger mentioned it recently that tends to be the case when you see multiple people brining up the same point which wasn’t widespread for months of prior discussion.

I feel like that's probably the most likely reason, unfortunately.

I keep blocking those youtubers... they keep popping up, only because I have some Tolkien themed channels that talk about lore YouTube also thinks I want some angry white dude talk about why RoP is a hot mess recommended to me too.

YouTube is awful like that. You'll watch one video about something out of interest, suddenly it just throws 600 videos that are sort of related at you, most of which are complete garbage.

[Adamas102]

James Bond has always been white and popular around the world and is based on a character from novels going back over 70 years. Peter Parker as Spiderman has always been white and is the best selling character in Marvel comics. None of these characters as white had a problem being popular was the point. You haven't proven otherwise.

You said Spider-man, a character that has been portrayed in a variety of ways. Peter Parker is white, but Spider-man has also been black (Miles Morales) and Irish-Mexican (Miguel O'Hara) and female (usually going by the moniker Spider-Girl or Spider-Woman, but still is essentially the same superhero).

As for James Bond, despite the initial push back, Daniel Craig proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that the original description of James Bond isn't what makes the character. His build, his eye color, his skin color, and his hair color aren't set in stone. He's also a character that has been modernized every time he has been adapted to the screen.

No one is even saying that white characters can't be popular, but these characters aren't popular BECAUSE of the color of their skin.

Studios like Amazon have diversity mandates So that means a certain amount of diversity is required, regardless of what the source material says. That implicitly means injecting diversity into the story of Tolkien as a number of the actors and actresses for this show have come out and said. Which again, implies that Tolkien's work somehow wasn't popular already without that and potentially racist for not explicitly including that kind of diversity.

This was debunked already. Amazon has no diversity mandate for casting characters other than nationality, gender, ethnicity, sexual orientation, and disability SHOULD match between actor and role. The numbers that were thrown around in this thread (30%, 50% by 2024) pertain to above-the-line roles (directors, writers, producers).

There's also no implication that Tolkien's work wasn't popular or was racist. Lack of diversity doesn't automatically mean something was racist, but it also doesn't mean it has to maintain that lack of diversity when adapted for modern audiences.

We are talking about modern Britain having a lot of immigrants from various parts of the world, unlike ancient England. The main characters and stories from Middle Earth were intended to reflect the population of England and is based on European mythology. While there are other parts of the continent of Middle Earth that would be similar to Africa and Asia, those areas were not the main setting for his stories. So there is diversity in his world, but the main stories of the Elves, Hobbits and Dwarves are based around the mythology and people indigenous to England and Europe.

They are of European descent so obviously they represent the characteristics of ancient indigenous Europeans. Unless you are claiming that Africans and Asians are indigenous to England? England being in Northern Europe would have an indigenous population adapted to Northern environments, which means light to white skin is the point. Just like populations indigenous to Africa would have dark skin because Africa straddles the equator. This isn't arbitrary.

Actually, it is arbitrary because you're picking a particular time in prehistory (less than 5,000 years ago) that Tolkien didn't specify. In fact, the stretch of time that Tolkien noted as a reference to our history (6,000 - 16,000 years ago) coincides with the time that the hunter gatherer tribes of Europe were only just starting to develop the genetic makeup that lead to their skin whitening. So the first Men who arrived in Beleriand would mostly (if not entirely) be of dark skin, with white skin only becoming prevalent later in the 3rd Age.

As for Elves, Hobbits, and Dwarves, they aren't even human, but if you really want to belabor the point that they should reflect actual human skin tones of the time and region, then given the span of time that these creatures existed (thousands of years) and the longevity of these species, there's no reason why you couldn't have a variety of skin tones within each group.

I have a problem with giving Harfoots which are technically Hobbits a major role in the 2nd age when they had none in the source material. And therefore, regardless of skin color, they shouldn't have a prominent role in those stories. Using Lenny Henry as an argument for "diversity" doesn't justify that change. And if they really cared about it, then why not make whole large groups of elves black, whole groups of Numenoreans black and whole groups of Dwarves black instead of just 1 or 2? If you are going to go in then go all the way in. Either way, none of that is what Tolkien intended is the point and it isn't necessary to make his work popular.

Lenny Henry isn't an argument for diversity or for Harfoots. He's an argument for the ridiculous notion that black people aren't of the right culture given that he's a fixture of British culture, same as the likes of Ian McKellen, Christopher Lee, and Sean Bean.

As for the inclusion of Harfoots, the whole point of the show is to flesh out the loose set of notes that comprises things like the Appendices of LotR. Tolkien referenced Harfoots, so there's no reason not to include them in stories that draw from his works.

The source materials that this show is drawing from are NOT popular. It's based on appendices, letters, and notes. Not on the narratives that people are familiar with.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

I keep blocking those youtubers... they keep popping up, only because I have some Tolkien themed channels that talk about lore it thinks I want some angry white dude talk about why RoP is a hot mess.

Ya they are an absolute plague, I’ve just stopped watching videos of some franchises all together to avoid months of clearing there sludge.

Thankfully my looking into Tolkiens work on YouTube was a couple of years ago so I’ve dodged that bullet this time around and I’m not gonna be clicking on any videos about it for the foreseeable future.

[UnifiedDivide]

why not make whole large groups of elves black, whole groups of Numenoreans black and whole groups of Dwarves black instead of just 1 or 2?

Just because you only saw less than a handful in the trailer, that does not mean that there won't be others. A trailer can only show so much, and will only show certain bits to grab attention. There could very well be entire armies of black people waiting to be seen in the series.

[Orby]

Ya they are an absolute plague, I’ve just stopped watching videos of some franchises all together to avoid months of clearing there sludge.

Thankfully my looking into Tolkiens work on YouTube was a couple of years ago so I’ve dodged that bullet this time around and I’m not gonna be clicking on any videos about it for the foreseeable future.

Oh same. I been following Nerd of the Rings and Broken Sword (back when they were called History of Middle Earth) for like 5 years? Maybe a little less. But as someone who is not some big tolkien fan I enjoy those channels as a casual reader to keep me up to date on whats what. (Only read LotR, Hobbit, The Silmarillion and Beren and Lúthien)

I feel like that's probably the most likely reason, unfortunately.


YouTube is awful like that. You'll watch one video about something out of interest, suddenly it just throws 600 videos that are sort of related at you, most of which are complete garbage.

I wonder if Star Wars fans had a similar experience as I am not into Stars Wars that much :P

[gamz247]

There could very well be entire armies of black people waiting to be seen in the series.

Why would there be armies consisting only of dark-skinned Men? That suggests that they are somehow separate from the rest of the Númenóreans.

[UnifiedDivide]

I wonder if Star Wars fans had a similar experience as I am not into Stars Wars that much :P

I can just about guarantee it. YouTube's algorithm is shocking in this regard. They don't care what they send you, they'll just send you anything remotely related. Its how a lot of people end up in such outrage bubbles.

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Why would there be armies consisting only of dark-skinned Men? That suggests that they are somehow separate from the rest of the Númenóreans.

Let me help you out.

[Belize]

Imagine being this angry there are black people in a TV show.


Anyways: So far from the few trailers/screenshots we've had, this show looks like CGI hell, and not in a good way. Uff.

[bledgor]

Imagine being this angry there are black people in a TV show.


Anyways: So far from the few trailers/screenshots we've had, this show looks like CGI hell, and not in a good way. Uff.

I'm not sure if it is bad CGI or just the complete over use of CGI, miss the days when CGI was used to enhance scenes instead of its current day use of making scenes, real sets had that tangibility that you could see/feel, and the lack of it now just makes everything feel off/fake.

[UnifiedDivide]

TIL. Wonder if Amazon will go with 5 seasons.

The writers of Prime Video's The Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power are in it for the long haul. The series still hasn't debuted but already has a two-season commitment from Amazon. However, J.D. Payne tells Empire Magazine that their plans for the show go far beyond that. Five seasons of The Rings of Power are already meticulously planned out, including exactly how the show will end. "We even know what our final shot of the last episode is going to be," Payne says. "The rights that Amazon bought were for a 50-hour show. They knew from the beginning that was the size of the canvas – this was a big story with a clear beginning, middle and end. There are things in the first season that don't pay off until Season 5."

[Dhrizzle]

Holy walls of text...

It really is an impressively huge block of words. I wonder if it's any good.

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I wonder why, after so long with it not really even being mentioned in the thread outside of a handful of times months ago, there is this (seemingly sudden) massive push on "alternative history for England" As I recall, it was simply meant to be a "fictional place with its own history, people, and languages," and isn't meant to be placed into our own history, anthropologically speaking.

As an Englishman, am I meant to care more about it supposedly being an "alternate history" for my country?

When he spoke about making a "new mythology" for England it seemed to be more like a gift for the country than a new way for us to look at life. Lots of other cultures had these amazing interconnected stories of gods and monsters that English literature myths couldn't compare to (in his opinion.)

On top of that he used a literary device where he pretended to only be translating a text in Old English that came from a much older source (The Red Book of Westmarch which is a continued version of the book started by Bilbo and Frodo.) Through this it is assumed that it tells of a pre-prehistory though Tolkien had plans for massive retcons to make that work.

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TIL. Wonder if Amazon will go with 5 seasons.

AFAIK they have pre-approved all 5 seasons. Bezos is a Tolkien fan and probably said he'd cover the cost if it flops.

[Triceron]

But try remaking Van Gogh's "The Starry Night" and see how far that goes.

Such things always reflects back to the original.

Well, Lego recently did and people love it.



Like, does anyone legit have a problem with it? Everyone knows this isn't the original and no one is mistaking it for it.

We can appreciate an 'adaptation' for literally being an adaptation. It is what it is, and it is not the original.

[Logwyn]

Like, does anyone legit have a problem with it? Everyone knows this isn't the original and no one is mistaking it for it.

We can appreciate an 'adaptation' for literally being an adaptation. It is what it is, and it is not the original.

There are a number of things Tolkien admitted he "did not know" about Middle Earth. Maybe the Amazon is just some of those things being fleshed out. Would be nice to know what happened to the Ent Wives

[Triceron]

There are a number of things Tolkien admitted he "did not know" about Middle Earth. Maybe the Amazon is just some of those things being fleshed out. Would be nice to know what happened to the Ent Wives

Even as a pure work of fiction within the 'Middle-Earth' universe, I don't think anyone is really mistaking this to be an authentic retelling of any of Tolkien's work.

Like, even games like Shadows of Mordor took huge creative liberties with the LOTR material. I don't really quite understand why people are dying on a hill on having Rings of Power be super authentic. It never will be.

[InfiniteCharger]

You said Spider-man, a character that has been portrayed in a variety of ways. Peter Parker is white, but Spider-man has also been black (Miles Morales) and Irish-Mexican (Miguel O'Hara) and female (usually going by the moniker Spider-Girl or Spider-Woman, but still is essentially the same superhero).

The original white Peter Parker Spiderman is the best selling comic title for Marvel. James Bond was created by Ian Fleming based on an era when Jamaica was still a colony of Britain and the jet set crowd was made up of royals and rich folks from various places in Europe and elsewhere. And despite all of that, is still one of the most popular franchises with a white main character. That was my point. You haven't shown otherwise. If what you were saying were true then Miles Morales and all these other versions of Spiderman would be selling more than the original and they are not. Still to this day Peter Parker Spiderman is the top selling Marvel comic, along with the original white Batman from DC.

As for James Bond, despite the initial push back, Daniel Craig proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that the original description of James Bond isn't what makes the character. His build, his eye color, his skin color, and his hair color aren't set in stone. He's also a character that has been modernized every time he has been adapted to the screen.

He is still white and still based on a character modeled on the openly patriarchal era of playboys and rakes in the 1950s. And still the character has been popular nevertheless.

https://therake.com/stories/icons/rakes-of-the-riviera/

No one is even saying that white characters can't be popular, but these characters aren't popular BECAUSE of the color of their skin.

No they are popular DESPITE the color of their skin as most of them were created in an era where equity and equality wasn't even a thing. But even with that they are popular among many audiences world wide. Otherwise, they wouldn't still be popular this day among widely diverse audiences. So changing their skin color is not required for popularity among a diverse audience.

This was debunked already. Amazon has no diversity mandate for casting characters other than nationality, gender, ethnicity, sexual orientation, and disability SHOULD match between actor and role. The numbers that were thrown around in this thread (30%, 50% by 2024) pertain to above-the-line roles (directors, writers, producers).

Amazon and other companies absolutely have diversity mandates for including characters of different ethnic backgrounds in their shows. Which specifically results in them changing characters in stories that may not have been diverse. And they have said this themselves in interviews and press releases.

There's also no implication that Tolkien's work wasn't popular or was racist. Lack of diversity doesn't automatically mean something was racist, but it also doesn't mean it has to maintain that lack of diversity when adapted for modern audiences.

If Tolkien's work is already popular among modern audiences then it doesn't need "more diversity" for modern audiences. Most of the time this is coming from within the studio and/or certain leftist academics who help guide and drive these policies but not necessarily from the general public. This obsession with putting x characters into shows set in Europe is not coming from actual "diverse" artists and creators and it is not coming from the general public either. Sure, they can do it, but that doesn't mean it will be more popular just because of that among the public at large.

Actually, it is arbitrary because you're picking a particular time in prehistory (less than 5,000 years ago) that Tolkien didn't specify. In fact, the stretch of time that Tolkien noted as a reference to our history (6,000 - 16,000 years ago) coincides with the time that the hunter gatherer tribes of Europe were only just starting to develop the genetic makeup that lead to their skin whitening. So the first Men who arrived in Beleriand would mostly (if not entirely) be of dark skin, with white skin only becoming prevalent later in the 3rd Age.

As for Elves, Hobbits, and Dwarves, they aren't even human, but if you really want to belabor the point that they should reflect actual human skin tones of the time and region, then given the span of time that these creatures existed (thousands of years) and the longevity of these species, there's no reason why you couldn't have a variety of skin tones within each group.

What you describe is not Tolkien. The 3 houses of the Edain from the first age are all described in ways modeled on cultures from ancient Europe who were white (Goths, Nordics, Vikings, Saxons, and mostly Welsh). All of the men of Middle Earth of course were not white, but those who joined with the Elves and fought against Morgoth were definitely white. And from this alliance came the marriage of Edain and Elf that produced the line of Half Elves who would go on to found the line of kings of Numenor. Other groups of men existed in other parts of Middle Earth but they were not the ones primarily involved in the main stories of Tolkien which surround the Elves, the Edain, the Numenoreans and other groups of men in these regions around Northern Middle Earth. That also includes the Dwarves as well who also may have been diverse across Middle Earth with some looking similar to Mongols and other eastern cultures, but those were not the main ones featured in the stories of Tolkien. Just like European mythology concerns mainly peoples of Northern Europe and therefore involves gods and other mythological entities with white skin. Of course diversity exists on planet earth, but that does not mean Northern European history and mythology was diverse 2,000 years ago. In general the continent of Middle Earth loosely reflects the real world earth were Northern Middle Earth is Northern Europe and Southern Middle Earth is Africa and Eastern Middle Earth is Asia. But most of the main events of Tolkien are set in Northern Middle Earth. If they really wanted to do diversity in this context they would have explored more about the cultures of Southern or Eastern Middle Earth which Tolkien covered far less than Northern Middle Earth.

Lenny Henry isn't an argument for diversity or for Harfoots. He's an argument for the ridiculous notion that black people aren't of the right culture given that he's a fixture of British culture, same as the likes of Ian McKellen, Christopher Lee, and Sean Bean.

As for the inclusion of Harfoots, the whole point of the show is to flesh out the loose set of notes that comprises things like the Appendices of LotR. Tolkien referenced Harfoots, so there's no reason not to include them in stories that draw from his works.

The source materials that this show is drawing from are NOT popular. It's based on appendices, letters, and notes. Not on the narratives that people are familiar with.

The outline of the main events of the 2nd age were written in Tolkens various works. There was no major role involving Harfoots (who are Hobbits) in the 2nd age. The main players in the 2nd age were Elves, Dwarves and Numenoreans. So there should be no major story involving Harfoots/Hobbits in the 2nd age similar to the story of the Hobbits in the 3rd age. The crafting of the Rings of Power had absolutely nothing to do with Hobbits, neither did the fall of Numenor or the final battle against Sauron. So making them diverse doesn't change the fact that this is absolutely not part of what Tolkien outlined. Everything we know about the 2nd Age comes from the outlines, but these are not mere notes. There were whole books published after his death which provide the general outline of the 2nd age and a geneaology of various clans that played a major role in it, such as the various Elven Houses and the Numenorean Kings. This isn't trivial at all. No matter what notes Amazon had access to, they are still using those other works outside of the appendices in order to do the story of the Numenoreans. But at this point they have also already admitted that they are telling their own story and this is why they have condensed the timeline because this is not Tolkien's story for the 2nd age.

[UnifiedDivide]

]When he spoke about making a "new mythology" for England it seemed to be more like a gift for the country than a new way for us to look at life. Lots of other cultures had these amazing interconnected stories of gods and monsters that English literature myths couldn't compare to (in his opinion.)

On top of that he used a literary device where he pretended to only be translating a text in Old English that came from a much older source (The Red Book of Westmarch which is a continued version of the book started by Bilbo and Frodo.) Through this it is assumed that it tells of a pre-prehistory though Tolkien had plans for massive retcons to make that work.

I think I'm actually on board with the "gift" notion. Would make some sense, at least.

AFAIK they have pre-approved all 5 seasons. Bezos is a Tolkien fan and probably said he'd cover the cost if it flops.

Well, shit. I guess we have good chances of seeing the whole thing.

I was mostly interested in seeing if they'd run with it specifically after how much they probably spent just to get the rights.

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There are a number of things Tolkien admitted he "did not know" about Middle Earth. Maybe the Amazon is just some of those things being fleshed out. Would be nice to know what happened to the Ent Wives

There is a specific quote from Tolkien about how he quite literally wrote the entire story for certain things, but purposely left other things vague, so that "other minds and hands, wielding paint and music and drama" could fill in the blanks.

[Shadowferal]

Well, Lego recently did and people love it. Like, does anyone legit have a problem with it? Everyone knows this isn't the original and no one is mistaking it for it. We can appreciate an 'adaptation' for literally being an adaptation. It is what it is, and it is not the original.

It's still Van Gogh "The Starry Night." The Legos didn't change a thing.