1. #2561
    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    Agreeed, and it is even good, I would watch it.

    I do suspect, the reason why many of these moves are bad is because they seem more focused on the messaging and politics than investing time in actually writing a good script.

    Equally they throw more money and preparation into CGI and post production - while failing to seriously vet the writing of a good script - some of these companies literally give people a day to write a script for a movie.

    I mean this is the most important aspect of a movie, and it's just considered meh, you can do it in a wook or a few days - and hey wonder why it sucks.

    Most of these shows today don't suck because they are diverse, they suck because they are terrible - and we suspect the reason tehya re terrible is because activists are writing them to insert their messages rather than these studios either hiring actually good writers/creators or giving them the correct time they need to do it well. Instead all they seem to care about is virtue signallig. Now this may just be the marketing doing it's job overly well - giving us this impression, however, at the end of the day, if the movie or show sucks, it sucks.
    I don't get how they can just ghost Peter Jackson, Fran Walsh and Phillipa Boynes when they are the people you want on your team.

    I also think they're rushing this to get to the parts that they think the people REALLY want to see.
    I mean, why not take our time with series one? Why rush to Ar Pharazon and Tar Miriel? I understand that these two are important regarding the downfall of Numenor but what about the rise of Numenor? the Guild of Ventures? The building of Umbar? Meetings the natives from Harad?

    I get it, because I'd like to put faces to names for some of those Kings Men Numenoreans and show their fall from grace after Numenor's sinking - but there's no need to rush it like this. On top of the virture signalling, the last thing the Tolkien fanbase needs is for the Second age to be rushed like this. Tell as fuller story as you can, not bits.
    I'm so worried about what they're going to do with the Witch King of Angmar, Khamul and the other Nazgul as they've hinted as seeing their back stories. What is going to happen to them, prior to becoming wraiths? I actually dread the thought.

  2. #2562
    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    I don't get how they can just ghost Peter Jackson, Fran Walsh and Phillipa Boynes when they are the people you want on your team.
    As I understand it, they all but had to, from a legal standpoint of having to keep the movies and the series separate.

  3. #2563
    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    Most of these shows today don't suck because they are diverse, they suck because they are terrible - and we suspect the reason tehya re terrible is because activists are writing them to insert their messages rather than these studios either hiring actually good writers/creators or giving them the correct time they need to do it well. Instead all they seem to care about is virtue signallig. Now this may just be the marketing doing it's job overly well - giving us this impression, however, at the end of the day, if the movie or show sucks, it sucks.
    Except you're jumping the gun by assuming your hangups are the main reason they are failing, rather than defaulting to a more reasonable explanation that the overall production was just poorly justified or made overall.

    Like, does the virtue signalling actually take priority in any of the examples brought up here? Did Airbender and GITS really fail because of virtue signalling? I don't think so at all. Neither did Dragonball Evolution fail because of having a white actor lead. There would have been just as many problems with the movie if they'd cast an Asian actor as the lead, let's get this completely out there.

    These are all cases of bad shows being bad, bad movies being bad. There are plenty of series where diversity happens where it did not in the original, and the series were good because they were good. Battlestar Galactica comes to mind as an example. Even as far back as 10 years ago, people were criticizing making one of the leads a female, and people had major hangups over Starbuck's casting. Those issues don't even matter today in retrospect and no one gives credence to those former hangups.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-08-10 at 03:50 PM.

  4. #2564
    Quote Originally Posted by UnifiedDivide View Post
    As I understand it, they all but had to, from a legal standpoint of having to keep the movies and the series separate.
    As far as looking at the scripts, I didn't hear anything about legalities as they were originally hoping that either Fran or Phillipa would be part of the script writing.
    (I can't remember which one, but I did hear they wanted one of them to join the script writing team and who wouldn't want them? Phillipa managed to write the whole introduction to the FotR and condensed a large ton of work to a few minutes of seriously amazing script work.)

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Except you're jumping the gun by assuming your hangups are the main reason they are failing, rather than defaulting to a more reasonable explanation that the overall production was just poorly justified or made overall.

    Like, does the virtue signalling actually take priority in any of the examples brought up here? Did Airbender and GITS really fail because of virtue signalling? I don't think so at all. Neither did Dragonball Evolution fail because of having a white actor lead. There would have been just as many problems with the movie if they'd cast an Asian actor as the lead, let's get this completely out there.

    These are all cases of bad shows being bad, bad movies being bad. There are plenty of series where diversity happens where it did not in the original, and the series were good because they were good. Battlestar Galactica comes to mind as an example. Even as far back as 10 years ago, people were criticizing making one of the leads a female, and people had major hangups over Starbuck's casting. Those issues don't even matter today in retrospect and no one gives credence to those former hangups.
    The virtue stuff is the least of my issues, but it isn't helping.

    My main issue is that the project seems rushed. We're talking about the Second age - not, the immediate build up to Numenor's fall.
    What about the first King of Numeanor who is Elrond's brother? The Guild of Venturers who came later? Numeanor establishing connections with the Haradrim and building Umbar? Starting with what seems to be, Ar Pharazon and Tar Miriel - it's like so much lore has been glossed over.

    Those events that I have mentioned are so important to what we know in the Third Age. I also don't need to see Durin's Bane in a story revolving around the Second Age as we know he didn't make his appearance until well into the Third Age.

    My question is how much of the Second Age are we actually getting, because I'm seeing a hell of a lot of Third Age stuff, which I was expecting - but not on this level, at this time.

  5. #2565
    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    As far as looking at the scripts, I didn't hear anything about legalities as they were originally hoping that either Fran or Phillipa would be part of the script writing.
    (I can't remember which one, but I did hear they wanted one of them to join the script writing team and who wouldn't want them? Phillipa managed to write the whole introduction to the FotR and condensed a large ton of work to a few minutes of seriously amazing script work.)
    As far as I read, it was Peter Jackson himself that was asked to be part of the production, but he'd have to see the scripts first. Amazon agreed, then just didn't follow through with it. I assume because then the legal stuff kicked in, having to keep the two properties separate due to licensing.

  6. #2566
    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    As far as looking at the scripts, I didn't hear anything about legalities as they were originally hoping that either Fran or Phillipa would be part of the script writing.
    (I can't remember which one, but I did hear they wanted one of them to join the script writing team and who wouldn't want them? Phillipa managed to write the whole introduction to the FotR and condensed a large ton of work to a few minutes of seriously amazing script work.)

    - - - Updated - - -



    The virtue stuff is the least of my issues, but it isn't helping.

    My main issue is that the project seems rushed. We're talking about the Second age - not, the immediate build up to Numenor's fall.
    What about the first King of Numeanor who is Elrond's brother? The Guild of Venturers who came later? Numeanor establishing connections with the Haradrim and building Umbar? Starting with what seems to be, Ar Pharazon and Tar Miriel - it's like so much lore has been glossed over.

    Those events that I have mentioned are so important to what we know in the Third Age. I also don't need to see Durin's Bane in a story revolving around the Second Age as we know he didn't make his appearance until well into the Third Age.

    My question is how much of the Second Age are we actually getting, because I'm seeing a hell of a lot of Third Age stuff, which I was expecting - but not on this level, at this time.
    The answer should be absolutely clear at this point on - The Amazon show has no authorial connection to the original lore (as in, it does not officially continue or expand on its canon) and the showrunners are creating an ORIGINAL fiction that is merely based on/inspired by the work in the books. They're taking material from the appendices and doing their own thing with it.

    It's very clear that what we have with Rings of Power is a non-canonical look at a fictional 2nd Age setting that would be no different from the fictional Middle Earth we explore in Shadows of Mordor or the LOTR Tabletop games. These are all non-canonical takes on expanding the universe, and otherwise have nothing to do with either the PJ movies or the novels.

    I'm not sure why people are still hungup on this being canonical at all. It isn't, and frankly aside from some PR remarks by the producers to make the show sound authentic; everything we know about the show's story is completely new to the entire series. Everything.

    Despite what the hardcore fans actually think, this show isn't made for hardcore Tolkien fans. It's aimed at a much broader, casual audience. It's leaning on its creative liberties more than retaining any level of authenticity. And I'm not putting forth any criticism here either way - I reserve that judgement for when the show arrives; I'm merely pointing out the factual what-we-know about this series, and disarming the expectations around this show somehow being the be-all end-all translation of the 2nd Age from the novels. What this will be is an Amazon Original TV series based on the Lord of the Rings property, that's all.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-08-10 at 04:30 PM.

  7. #2567
    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    Most of these shows today don't suck because they are diverse, they suck because they are terrible - and we suspect the reason tehya re terrible is because activists are writing them to insert their messages rather than these studios either hiring actually good writers/creators or giving them the correct time they need to do it well.
    This is very difficult to properly assess.

    I agree that bad writing tends to make for bad shows, whether it has a "message" or not; and good writing tends to make for good shows, whether it has a "message" or not. But how do we tell when writing turns out bad BECAUSE of a message? It's not like we didn't have terrible writing in the past. And it's not like we don't have shows in the present day without "messages" that are nevertheless written piss-poorly.

    In fact, one might argue that good writing is and always has been the exception. Perhaps it's just the nature of "message"-driven productions that makes them stand out more - simply because it adds a distinguishing feature that increases their visibility - and that creates the IMPRESSION that we now have more bad shows without that actually being the case. I don't have any concrete numbers, and I wouldn't even know how to get any. So I can't say one way or the other.

    The only thing I CAN do is rile against bad writing, and in that I don't really care if there's a message, agenda, or whatever else at play. The writing is all I'm looking at: is the final product good or not? The rest is mostly ancillary to that.

    What I absolutely cannot stand, though, is people who use things like diversity IN DEFENSE OF bad writing. I'm all for diversity, both in casting and in production. I applaud anyone who tries to break up the crusty paradigms of old. But that doesn't trump quality. If you write a shit movie, having a diverse cast may be laudable but it's still a shit movie - and no amount of diversity can make a shit movie NOT a shit movie. To claim it would is not only dishonest on a fundamental level, it's also doing a disservice to the aim of normalizing diversity.
    Last edited by Biomega; 2022-08-10 at 04:35 PM.

  8. #2568
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    The answer should be absolutely clear at this point on - The Amazon show has no authorial connection to the original lore (as in, it does not officially continue or expand on its canon) and the showrunners are creating an ORIGINAL fiction that is merely based on/inspired by the work in the books. They're taking material from the appendices and doing their own thing with it.

    It's very clear that what we have with Rings of Power is a non-canonical look at a fictional 2nd Age setting that would be no different from the fictional Middle Earth we explore in Shadows of Mordor or the LOTR Tabletop games. These are all non-canonical takes on expanding the universe, and otherwise have nothing to do with either the PJ movies or the novels.

    I'm not sure why people are still hungup on this being canonical at all. It isn't, and frankly aside from some PR remarks by the producers to make the show sound authentic; everything we know about the show's story is completely new to the entire series. Everything.

    Despite what the hardcore fans actually think, this show isn't made for hardcore Tolkien fans. It's aimed at a much broader, casual audience. It's leaning on its creative liberties more than retaining any level of authenticity. And I'm not putting forth any criticism here either way - I reserve that judgement for when the show arrives; I'm merely pointing out the factual what-we-know about this series, and disarming the expectations around this show somehow being the be-all end-all translation of the 2nd Age from the novels. What this will be is an Amazon Original TV series based on the Lord of the Rings property, that's all.
    See that's a shame, because this could have been another making of Middle Earth, like it was at the start of the century.

    I understand that their were certain details that the Tolkien estate have laws over and that creators can't use certain things, but still - so much that could have been used.
    Now, don't get me wrong - I really do want to put faces on-screen, to names of the Black Numenoreans - like Ar Pharazon and the man who would be the Witch King. Tolkien spent an equal amount of time on his villains and what I will say, is that the show seems to be doing that as well...but I didn't want it to come this quick.

  9. #2569
    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    See that's a shame, because this could have been another making of Middle Earth, like it was at the start of the century.

    I understand that their were certain details that the Tolkien estate have laws over and that creators can't use certain things, but still - so much that could have been used.
    Now, don't get me wrong - I really do want to put faces on-screen, to names of the Black Numenoreans - like Ar Pharazon and the man who would be the Witch King. Tolkien spent an equal amount of time on his villains and what I will say, is that the show seems to be doing that as well...but I didn't want it to come this quick.
    To be fair, that's how it is in a lot of fandoms.

    Whether we're talking about Tolkien or Star Wars or Warcraft, there's always going to be contention between fan expectations on what the true 'Canon' really is. And the authors and creators can seek to create new stories and new material to elaborate on said canon, but the fans are always going to be fickle on being satisfied by what 'hits' and 'misses'.

    Like with Star Wars, we have a canonical 7-8-9 sequel trilogy, and a completely non-canonical anime series with Star Wars Visions. And to be fair, as fans, we all get to choose what we enjoy and what we don't. Regardless of whether the sequel trilogy is canon or not, regardless of whether Star Wars Visions anime is canonical or not, it's better that we have it and have something to enjoy rather than not have it at all and be left wishing. And that's how I see this.

    If this Rings of Power series isn't gonna be canonical, it doesn't mean there never will be a canonical adaptation of the series. We just might have to wait X decades until some corporation or entrepreneurial individual decides to take a crack at it.

    But to be frank, without the liscence to the Silmarillion (Which the Tolkien estate seems to be extra protective of and has never given movie rights away for), there's no real chance of ever getting an authentic 2nd Age TV series out there. Most of the material that explores the history of Middle Earth is not going to be found in the appendices alone.

  10. #2570
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    The answer should be absolutely clear at this point on - The Amazon show has no authorial connection to the original lore (as in, it does not officially continue or expand on its canon) and the showrunners are creating an ORIGINAL fiction that is merely based on/inspired by the work in the books. They're taking material from the appendices and doing their own thing with it.
    In that case, they should simply call the series "The Rings of Power", and not tie it back to "The Lord of the Rings", except to say that it was merely inspired by the works of JRR Tolkien.

  11. #2571
    Quote Originally Posted by gamz247 View Post
    In that case, they should simply call the series "The Rings of Power", and not tie it back to "The Lord of the Rings", except to say that it was merely inspired by the works of JRR Tolkien.
    Yeah but what's the point?

    That's like saying the Star Wars sequel trilogy shouldn't have been branded with 'Star Wars' because Lucas didn't write it. That isn't gonna happen because the whole point of these movies being made is for their brand recognition. The reason this even exists is because of the brand. Amazon isn't paying for the source material, they're paying for the strength of the brand and its draw power to Amazon Prime.

  12. #2572
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gamz247 View Post
    In that case, they should simply call the series "The Rings of Power", and not tie it back to "The Lord of the Rings", except to say that it was merely inspired by the works of JRR Tolkien.
    really they should have just used middle earth as a sub title like the shadow of Mordor games do, though that likely wouldn’t actually minimize any of the complaints.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  13. #2573
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Yeah but what's the point?

    That's like saying the Star Wars sequel trilogy shouldn't have been branded with 'Star Wars' because Lucas didn't write it. That isn't gonna happen because the whole point of these movies being made is for their brand recognition. The reason this even exists is because of the brand. Amazon isn't paying for the source material, they're paying for the strength of the brand and its draw power to Amazon Prime.
    Episodes 7-9 are officially licensed works. They are canon. The Rings of Power is basically fan fiction produced by Amazon.

  14. #2574
    Quote Originally Posted by gamz247 View Post
    Episodes 7-9 are officially licensed works. They are canon. The Rings of Power is basically fan fiction produced by Amazon.
    So RoP is not a licensed work?

  15. #2575
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gamz247 View Post
    Episodes 7-9 are officially licensed works. They are canon. The Rings of Power is basically fan fiction produced by Amazon.
    The lord of the rings and hobbit movies aren’t canon to any thing but them selfs (and some video games) but they still use the title so that’s not really an argument for changing the name.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  16. #2576
    Quote Originally Posted by gamz247 View Post
    Episodes 7-9 are officially licensed works. They are canon. The Rings of Power is basically fan fiction produced by Amazon.
    RoP is officially liscenced too.

    You see, there really is no difference. These are merely technicalities.

  17. #2577
    Bloodsail Admiral Krawu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adamas102 View Post
    Not quite true. While Tolkien went into great detail about the history, languages, and scenery of the world, his descriptions of the peoples and cultures are pretty light.

    The skin color of the dwarves was never stated, and as far as hobbits go the only mention of skin tone was in relation to the Harfoots mentioned in the prologue of LotR ("browner of skin" than other hobbits). With no baseline for either of these groups there's really no reason why they can't be represented by the whole range of human skin colors.

    As for elves, the descriptions of fair skin were brought up only in relation to named elves. As such most people assume that ALL elves were thus fair of skin, but again they're never described as such as a whole. Another way of looking at it would be why would Tolkien feel the need to point out the fair skin of each elf character he introduced if it was simply a common trait across the entire race?
    While Tolkien admitted that there is some murky space between whether elves are actually human or not (given that the two "races" could produce offspring together), given their origins, longevity, and fantastical powers it's also pretty common to consider them entirely non-hum and as such they don't have to adhere to the biological factors that delineate human skin tones. It's not beyond reason that there could be elves with darker skin tones, groups or individuals that Tolkien simply didn't describe in full. As far as I know the skin color of the silvan elves is never referenced so if you can break away from the fallacy that elvish skin must work the exact same way as human skin then having more skin tone variety there works just fine.
    At this point the argument comes across like looking for loopholes in a contract to get around the stated and intended terms and conditions. It aggravating and still done in bad faith.

    Middle Earth is based on Europe in terms of where it's situated on Arda. Populations are isolated by sheer distance and civilizations territorial and distrustful and prejudiced against any outsiders. There is no technological or magical mode of travel available to the masses which means no easy trade or migrations are going to happen and travel is time- and resource intensive, dangerous and inconvenient.

    Assuming biology for humanoids in Middle Earth works like it does in our world and considering it only takes about 1500-2000 years for skin color in a population to adapt to the environment (meaning UV radiation intensity) and Arda is already thousands of years old, there is absolutely zero reason why there should be any diversity in terms of skin tone, let alone race. Even a sudden influx of diverse migrants would've been absorbed into the general population after such a long time unless Apartheit is a thing in Middle Earth. And I doubt even these showrunners want to open that can of worms.

    Invoking magic or divinity as the reason for diversity also wouldn't do because

    -why would anyone care to begin with?
    -why would anyone care to keep this diversity going when there's natural, societal and economic pressure against it
    -it actually needs a much more elaborate explanation than the "genetics" angle
    -it's an insane stretch and kind of reminds me of the racist Mormon explanation for why black people exist

    I understand they WANT a diverse case at Amazon at any cost. But as I said, it would've been SO easy to just have Southerners and Easterners appear, think up a new race or two from outside Middle Earth and actually expand on the Legendarium instead of poorly copying what has already been done better by other shows or even preceding Tolkien movies and bulldozing the established world building in the process.

  18. #2578
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    RoP is officially liscenced too.

    You see, there really is no difference. These are merely technicalities.
    "We have the rights solely to The Fellowship of the Ring, The Two Towers, The Return of the King, the appendices, and The Hobbit"

    https://lrmonline.com/news/what-mate...ower-answered/

    The Rings of Power is a work of fan fiction because they didn't get the rights to tell the story of what actually happened in the Second Age.

  19. #2579
    Quote Originally Posted by gamz247 View Post
    "We have the rights solely to The Fellowship of the Ring, The Two Towers, The Return of the King, the appendices, and The Hobbit"

    https://lrmonline.com/news/what-mate...ower-answered/

    The Rings of Power is a work of fan fiction because they didn't get the rights to tell the story of what actually happened in the Second Age.
    Right, but it's still a liscenced product nonetheless. We can call this a work of Fiction, but what differentiates it from being "Fan Fiction" is the fact it has an official liscence.

    Being liscenced has no bearing on whether something is 'canon' or not to the original books. Even the PJ movies are liscenced, and are non-canonical to the books. Canonicity doesn't really even matter here, which is the point. Even if they did have the rights to the Silmarillion, there is absolutely no story which they could make that would ever be considered canonical to the Second Age in the books. They can aim to be authentic, but it will never be anything but an adaptation or derivative work.

    No adaptation will ever be completely authentic to the books. That's the nature of being an adaptation.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-08-10 at 05:59 PM.

  20. #2580
    The Lightbringer Hansworst's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gamz247 View Post
    "We have the rights solely to The Fellowship of the Ring, The Two Towers, The Return of the King, the appendices, and The Hobbit"

    https://lrmonline.com/news/what-mate...ower-answered/

    The Rings of Power is a work of fan fiction because they didn't get the rights to tell the story of what actually happened in the Second Age.
    So they are illegally using the likes of Elrond and Galadriel?

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