1. #2601
    Quote Originally Posted by InfiniteCharger View Post
    So now you are psychologist
    I have to say, it's been a while since someone has been so consistently entertaining. This analogy-blindness of yours is fascinating.

    Quote Originally Posted by InfiniteCharger View Post
    There is nothing to defend about white people being the dominant population in Europe now and historically.
    Which was never in question by me or anyone, but I'm sure you know that. No one has ever disputed this, and the only reason YOU keep bringing it up is because you have no other arguments and so you're trying to make an argument out of something no one disagrees with or brought up or thinks is actually relevant to the point at hand.

    You, sir, are a dishonest interlocutor unwilling (or unable) to engage with the ACTUAL points people are making.

    Quote Originally Posted by InfiniteCharger View Post
    I don't have to give you reasons for my opinions on Tolkien. Why don't you just let it go and stop trying to be right?
    Obviously you have serious problems with that simple concept.
    It's like it goes in one ear and out the other.

    Quote Originally Posted by InfiniteCharger View Post
    You keep trying to confuse your opinions about this show and how it treats the source material with the actual FACTS of Tolkiens work which is not an opinion.
    I'll pick this one to save time, but the same reply goes for a lot of your other ramblings: no one, not me not others, is in any way disputing the "FACTS" of Tolkien's work. No one is saying characters who are white in the text aren't white in the text. No one is saying Tolkien didn't write as a European and from a European context. No one is saying that if Tolkien wrote A it is in fact Not-A.

    THIS. IS. NOT. WHAT. WE. ARE. SAYING. AND. NEVER. WAS.

    So stop bringing it up like your personal safety blanket.

    Quote Originally Posted by InfiniteCharger View Post
    Your argument is only your opinion.
    You're objectively wrong there (again). Argument and Opinion are not the same thing. I even went and explained it earlier. But as usual, it just went completely ignored because it doesn't fit your agenda.

    Quote Originally Posted by InfiniteCharger View Post
    Strawman. This isn't about the English language. It is about the fact that every individual looking at a story can have a different definition of what is relevant or arbitrary in any work.
    But not on what the WORDS "relevant" or "arbitrary" MEAN.

    This isn't about what is or isn't relevant or arbitrary, it's about you USING THOSE WORDS INCORRECTLY.

    That is not a matter of opinion, dum-dum. Words have definitions and usages. Consult a dictionary if you like.

    Quote Originally Posted by InfiniteCharger View Post
    Other than facts you seem to refuse to accept?
    Like what? The fifty times you said I don't accept facts only for me to immediately point out I do and never didn't?

    Care to provide evidence, or is this just another bold-faced lie?

    Quote Originally Posted by InfiniteCharger View Post
    There is nothing to argue against. Your opinion is your own and I disagree with it. You can call it what you want. But your opinion is just that and I don't need to convince you otherwise. So let it go.
    And when I proffer an opinion, that's exactly what you should do.

    When I proffer an ARGUMENT, refute it with a better argument, accept it, or shut up and move on.

    The fact that you're not versed enough in the epistemological bases of discourse doesn't give you license to misuse terms and pretend you're engaged in an actual, honest debate. I'll call out anyone who's full of shit in a discussion, doesn't really matter what the discussion is about.

    Quote Originally Posted by InfiniteCharger View Post
    Fine, but it doesn't make sense to have one black women surrounded by all white people. If they want to show diversity then show diversity. Where are the "diverse" attendants?
    You've seen the show, then?

    Where and how? You seem very confident there is only "one black woman surrounded by all white people".

    Could it be... you're just full of doo-doo and making a racist rant? COULD IT BE?!

    Quote Originally Posted by InfiniteCharger View Post
    However, you also said that you were OK with substantial changes being made and still being called an "adaptation".
    Lie.

    I've said repeatedly and in no uncertain terms I don't give a shit what you call it, whether "adaptation" or something else. You are STILL pretending I do, after I've explained TWICE that I do not.

    Stop lying to my face.

    It's pretty clear at this point you are not actually interested in a discussion. You're interested in promoting a purist, essentialist, hardliner stance about what YOU consider acceptable in terms of skin color in casting choices, and anyone who disagrees is either ignored or done away with "but that's just, like, your opinion, man".

    You know what? You're free to have your opinion. It's a racist, bigoted, narrow-minded, and thoroughly undereducated and unintelligent opinion, but it's yours. And I'm not taking it away. Hold it close to your heart, precious one.

  2. #2602
    Quote Originally Posted by Zalraki View Post
    Forced diversity quotas being more important than entertainment value...


    We can make entertainment and cast/hire black people? Amazing!

  3. #2603
    Quote Originally Posted by s_bushido View Post
    We can make entertainment and cast/hire black people? Amazing!
    But…my immersion…

  4. #2604
    Quote Originally Posted by s_bushido View Post


    We can make entertainment and cast/hire black people? Amazing!
    Which is not the issue here.

  5. #2605
    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    Which is not the issue here.
    Correct! The issue is that VERY VERY FEW VOCAL (caps so you understand how few you are) people think a browner skin color makes the story, acting, immersion and everything around it null and invalid. Which speaks for it self.

  6. #2606
    Quote Originally Posted by Askyl View Post
    Correct! The issue is that VERY VERY FEW VOCAL (caps so you understand how few you are) people think a browner skin color makes the story, acting, immersion and everything around it null and invalid. Which speaks for it self.
    Yes, it does when they are forced inserted in a population which have no reason whatsoever to have PoC. And I bet they won't even make the effort to explain why we have PoC in a white population. Btw, where are the asian or the latino ? I thought they wanted to make that serie looks like New York City ? (Which is also the issue in fact as it is not as Tolkien wrote it).

  7. #2607
    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    Yes, it does when they are forced inserted in a population which have no reason whatsoever to have PoC. And I bet they won't even make the effort to explain why we have PoC in a white population. Btw, where are the asian or the latino ? I thought they wanted to make that serie looks like New York City ? (Which is also the issue in fact as it is not as Tolkien wrote it).
    Why would they need to adress poc characters?

    When you see a black guy on the streets, do you walk up to them and ask them why they’re here?

  8. #2608
    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    Yes, it does when they are forced inserted in a population which have no reason whatsoever to have PoC. And I bet they won't even make the effort to explain why we have PoC in a white population.
    And the racists wonder why I call them racist.

    Elf =/= white. Dwarf =/= white. Numenorean =/= white. Fucking deal with it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    Btw, where are the asian or the latino ? I thought they wanted to make that serie looks like New York City ? (Which is also the issue in fact as it is not as Tolkien wrote it).
    Ismael Enrique Cruz Cordova. That's the name of the black guy playing the elf. Congratulations. You played yourself.

  9. #2609
    Quote Originally Posted by Veggie50 View Post
    Why would they need to adress poc characters?

    When you see a black guy on the streets, do you walk up to them and ask them why they’re here?
    Because we are in the Middle Earth and people do not travel as we do in our world ?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by s_bushido View Post
    And the racists wonder why I call them racist.

    Elf =/= white. Dwarf =/= white. Numenorean =/= white. Fucking deal with it.



    Ismael Enrique Cruz Cordova. That's the name of the black guy playing the elf. Congratulations. You played yourself.
    Again, slandering. Do you know to not do that ? Or do you lack the cognitive capacity to not do that ?

    So he is playing a black elf while being latino ? So that's acceptable ? Talk about double standards.

    The setting is based around white population. Sorry to break it to you. You want PoC everywhere ? Make your own setting or make an effort to use one of the PoC population of the Middle Earth.
    Last edited by Specialka; 2022-08-11 at 07:08 AM.

  10. #2610
    Quote Originally Posted by s_bushido View Post
    And the racists wonder why I call them racist.

    Elf =/= white. Dwarf =/= white. Numenorean =/= white. Fucking deal with it.



    Ismael Enrique Cruz Cordova. That's the name of the black guy playing the elf. Congratulations. You played yourself.
    Congratulations! You obviously followed this instructional video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHSVjmO4iJY

  11. #2611
    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    Because we are in the Middle Earth and people do not travel as we do in our world ?

    - - - Updated - - -



    Again, slandering. Do you know to not do that ? Or do you lack the cognitive capacity to not do that ?

    So he is playing a black elf while being latino ? So that's acceptable ? Talk about double standards.

    The setting is based around white population. Sorry to break it to you. You want PoC everywhere ? Make your own setting or make an effort to use one of the PoC population of the Middle Earth.
    You are certainly very focussed on race...

    What makes you think people in middle earth don't travel? The most major books published by Tolkien (Hobbit and LotR) are about travelling. Just because Tolkien didn't describe the story of a Harad family fleeing the dark lords influence in Harad and settling in Gondor doesn't mean it couldn't have happened.

    Remember it's a fictional world, as much as you may want it to be real. Anything you can accept, is alright. The fact it's easier for you to accept dragons than black elves is telling.

  12. #2612
    Quote Originally Posted by Veggie50 View Post
    You are certainly very focussed on race...

    What makes you think people in middle earth don't travel? The most major books published by Tolkien (Hobbit and LotR) are about travelling. Just because Tolkien didn't describe the story of a Harad family fleeing the dark lords influence in Harad and settling in Gondor doesn't mean it couldn't have happened.

    Remember it's a fictional world, as much as you may want it to be real. Anything you can accept, is alright. The fact it's easier for you to accept dragons than black elves is telling.
    Telling nothing but in your sick head.

    They do not travel as much as we do in the modern world. In the middle age, people rarely moved around their town.

    And I perfectly accept a black elf if you give me a good reason why there is a black elf (or more) in a population of white elf. Same goes for the black princess of a white people. Good luck with that.

    Infracted for flaming.
    Last edited by eschatological; 2022-08-11 at 01:21 PM.

  13. #2613
    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    Yes, it does when they are forced inserted in a population which have no reason whatsoever to have PoC. And I bet they won't even make the effort to explain why we have PoC in a white population. Btw, where are the asian or the latino ? I thought they wanted to make that serie looks like New York City ? (Which is also the issue in fact as it is not as Tolkien wrote it).
    Ah, the resident racist wants to go another round. Planting that foot straight in your mouth every time you post, huh?

    Looks like New York City? Apparently unaware that there is diversity in Europe and almost every cast member is British.

    Hair color and skin color variations are both simply genetic mutations that affect melanin, but I doubt you'd throw a bitch fit about dwarves or hobbits with a range of hair colors. See one with darker skin though and now an explanation is necessary.

    Tolkien made it a point to say that Middle-earth doesn't correspond with a Europe from any particular time in our history so really no reason not to allow the diversity of modern Europe to be present.
    Last edited by Adamas102; 2022-08-11 at 08:13 AM.

  14. #2614
    Quote Originally Posted by Adamas102 View Post
    Ah, the resident racist wants to go another round. Planting that foot straight in your mouth every time you post, huh?

    Looks like New York City? Apparently unaware that there is diversity in Europe and almost every cast member is British.

    Hair color and skin color variations are both simply genetic mutations that affect melanin, but I doubt you'd throw a bitch fit about dwarves or hobbits with a range of hair colors. See one with darker skin though and now an explanation is necessary.
    More slandering and still no reasonable explanation. Are not the showrunners american ? Hence it would not be surprising that they would want to emulate american society in their production. That is what americans do.

  15. #2615
    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    More slandering and still no reasonable explanation. Are not the showrunners american ? Hence it would not be surprising that they would want to emulate american society in their production. That is what americans do.
    Well, by hiring a bunch of Brits they succeeded in emulating British society. So yeah, guess you're wrong on that one, too.

    No explanation is needed. Different hair colors, different skin colors. Neither detracts from the story for anyone other than people who are obsessed with racial purity (something Tolkien explicitly was against).
    Last edited by Adamas102; 2022-08-11 at 08:20 AM.

  16. #2616
    Quote Originally Posted by Adamas102 View Post
    Well, by hiring a bunch of Brits they succeeded in emulating British society. So yeah, guess you're wrong on that one, too.

    No explanation is needed. Different hair colors, different skin colors. Neither detracts from the story for anyone other than people who are obsessed with racial purity (something Tolkien explicitly was against).
    Obviously. Always the easier way. No need for thinking, logic or reasoning that way Keep up the good work

  17. #2617
    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    Obviously. Always the easier way. No need for thinking, logic or reasoning that way Keep up the good work
    Says the guy whose simple little mind can't wrap itself around dark skinned people appearing in a fantasy world

  18. #2618
    Quote Originally Posted by Adamas102 View Post
    Says the guy whose simple little mind can't wrap itself around dark skinned people appearing in a fantasy world
    Says the guy whose simple little mind can't wrap itself around dark skinned people appearing in a fantasy world without any good reason (because the people they are inserted into are white) nor explaination. Fixed.

  19. #2619
    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    Says the guy whose simple little mind can't wrap itself around dark skinned people appearing in a fantasy world without any good reason (because the people they are inserted into are white) nor explaination. Fixed.
    I appreciate you admitting you have a simple little mind, but again the "good reason" is that Tolkien left the world he created vague enough for that diversity to exist (while also being specific about it not being all white).

    When interviewed for the Daily Telegraph Magazine in 1968 he was specifically asked if Middle-earth corresponded to Nordic Europe. Nordic Europe being the Northwestern and Northern parts of Europe, encompassing peoples such as Anglo-Saxon, Germanic, Scandinavian, Northern French, and Celts, and Nordicism being the idea that these peoples, and by extension the white race, was superior and sacred. Tolkien wholeheartedly denied these ideas and his response was as follows:

    Not Nordic, please! A word I personally dislike; it is associated, though of French origin, with racialist theories. Geographically Northern is usually better. But examination will show that even this is inapplicable (geographically or spiritually) to 'Middle-earth'. This is an old word, not invented by me, as reference to a dictionary such as the Shorter Oxford will show. It meant the habitable lands of our world, set amid the surrounding Ocean. The action of the story takes place in the North-west of 'Middle-earth', equivalent in latitude to the coastlands of Europe and the north shores of the Mediterranean. But this is not a purely 'Nordic' area in any sense.
    Not only did Tolkien reject the idea that the North-west of Middle-earth (where all these stories take place) was equivalent to white Northern Europe, he also didn't specify the skin color of dwarves (at all), the only reference he made to hobbit skin tone was that Harfoots (the most common type of hobbit) were "browner of skin" than Stoors and Fallohides, and Numenorians were culturally most similar to ancient Egyptians (a people that encompassed a variety of skin tones).

    The idea that all these races and peoples were white is purely assumption based on Tolkien's descriptions of specific people ONLY. There were a lot of people and subgroups of people that Tolkien never gave detailed descriptions of, and he made it crystal clear that Middle-earth (from Hobbiton to the Mouth of Anduin) was not spiritually, geographically, or culturally the equivalent of white Northern Europe.

    But yeah, you keep fighting the good fight for the pure white, northern European Middle-earth that Tolkien expressly said was not a thing.
    Last edited by Adamas102; 2022-08-11 at 09:06 AM.

  20. #2620
    Quote Originally Posted by Adamas102 View Post
    I appreciate you admitting you have a simple little mind, but again the "good reason" is that Tolkien left the world he created vague enough for that diversity to exist (while also being specific about it not being all white).

    When interviewed for the Daily Telegraph Magazine in 1968 he was specifically asked if Middle-earth corresponded to Nordic Europe. Nordic Europe being the Northwestern and Northern parts of Europe, encompassing peoples such as Anglo-Saxon, Germanic, Scandinavian, Northern French, and Celts, and Nordicism being the idea that these peoples, and by extension the white race, was superior and sacred. Tolkien wholeheartedly denied these ideas and his response was as follows:



    Not only did Tolkien reject the idea that the North-west of Middle-earth (where all these stories take place) was equivalent to white Northern Europe, he also didn't specify the skin color of dwarves (at all), the only reference he made to hobbit skin tone was that Harfoots (the most common type of hobbit) were "browner of skin" than Stoors and Fallohides, and Numenorians were culturally most similar to ancient Egyptians (a people that encompassed a variety of skin tones).

    The idea that all these races and peoples were white is purely assumption based on Tolkien's descriptions of specific people ONLY. There were a lot of people and subgroups of people that Tolkien never gave detailed descriptions of, and he made it crystal clear that Middle-earth (from Hobbiton to the Mouth of Anduin) was not spiritually, geographically, or culturally the equivalent of white Northern Europe.

    But yeah, you keep fighting the good fight for the pure white, northern European Middle-earth that Tolkien expressly said was not a thing.
    Not that I admit anything . Rather correcting thing so you do not pass for someone dishonest intellectualy. Which you obviously are .

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