Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[Xath]

This thread is the best thing since therapists. I can just read everyones unneccecery hate here and realize my life is quite damn good!

As a life time Tolkien fan, I look forward to this show so much.

Sure you are bud that's why you are fine with the massive changes to lines of succession because you're totally a life long "super fan"

[Biomega]

I dont agree that diversity should be a goal. I'm a strong believer of hiring who is best suited for a position based on nothing but merrits.

Those are not mutually exclusive. You're assuming that merit can not only always be measured objectively, but that it also always distills down to one option.

That's just not the case. If it WAS as easy as "let's just look who's best qualified and take that person", we wouldn't have any problems. But we do, because you reach a point in the hiring (or casting) process where you cannot just go "well one candidate has score 45 and the other candidate has score 46, so we'll go with the 46 one" and all the candidates you have available are objectively qualified; and then it becomes very SUBJECTIVE who you hire, and experience has shown that somehow magically mysteriously white people tend to get hired significantly more EXCEPT when you set it up in a way that conceals racial traits, when suddenly that doesn't happen anymore (to everyone's shock and surprise).

And with acting it's the same thing. At some point someone goes "yeah this person is just, you know, the BEST FIT" and it's not down to them evaluating objective metrics. And to more shock and surprise it's somehow the black guys who get to be drug dealers and the white guys who get to be investment bankers and nobody knows why and how and it's all very mysterious.

"Just hire based on merit" is an IDEAL that I also subscribe to (I've said so in an earlier post, too), but it's a UTOPIAN ideal. We should strive to get there, and we should do our utmost to approach that goal, but in PRACTICE there's things that we need to compromise on in order to make things more equitable in the long run even if they're less equitable in the short term.

In the case of movies and tv however a merrit could be being a colour because - and i really mean this strongly - only because it makes sense for the character/story/setting/whatever.

The crux here lies in the "it makes sense for the character/story/setting" part, because that's where the reasons need to come in. Are there GOOD REASONS for casting a particular skin color? If so, I'm 100% fine with doing that. That's why Black Panther is black and Atticus Finch is white, and changing that would affect the stories they're in on a level that would be difficult to justify. However, for the vast majority of stories, that is not the case - there skin color is just a cosmetic detail of no plot relevance, and can be freely changed without affecting the narrative in any substantial way. Just as things like hair color, eye color, height, etc. are changed all the time and nobody ever gives a shit (except that one guy who keeps complaining Hermione's dress was pink and not blue because it's the internet and there's always that guy).

And I do mean GOOD REASONS are needed to fix traits like skin color. A lot of the time, we hear a variation of three things:

1. "It's not like that in the original" - that's a circular argument saying you can't change it because it is what it is and if you changed it, then it wouldn't be
2. "It just doesn't feel right" - that's just plain ol' garden-variety racism
3. "It's not how we've done this in the past, so why change it" - that's an argument from tradition, which is a bit weird when the tradition we're trying to change is that certain people have been discriminated against because of their skin color

None of these are good reasons, in any way, shape, or form. But there CAN BE good reasons.

Having diversity as a standard not only doesnt make sense because of demography reasons it also doesnt make sense because it literally means not the best qualified gets picked.

That's the fallacy, though. You're implying that picking someone for their skin color ALSO means picking someone less qualified. Which is neither self-evident nor logical, and is, by the way, doubly ironic because that's precisely what can happen when white people get jobs/roles/etc. because of their skin, too. It's just somehow swept under the rug there as though white people were always also the most qualified.

But as I said earlier, 100% merit based choice is an ideal, not a practical reality; and often it's an illusion to begin with.

The point i am trying to get across is that the persons colour and gender dont matter to me as long as it makes sense for the movie

And the trick is to focus on that last part as well as the first part, and be VERY thorough about it.

But to be clear, that wasn't really what I was talking about when I said "diversity is a goal in and of itself". It's not saying diversity is more important than certain other things, it's saying that you don't need justification for being diverse other than that being diverse is already a justification. It's not the final word, it's not a trump card that obviates other factors by default, it's just that you do not need to ask "but why do we NEED non-white people anyway?".

[Gumble]

And maybe its just the Brit in me, but Lenny Henry is of plenty note to me.

Definitely is, because the American in me has no idea who that is.

[InfiniteCharger]

Interesting discussion of what constitutes "Tolkenian" which actually brings up some good points.




However, the bigger issue is that ultimately, the Tolkien estate is not Tolkien the man and as time goes on they will have differing views on what is "Tolkienian".

Simon Tolkien already has had strong opinions on this.




And unfortunately what may actually likely wind up happening is that as time goes on you will get exactly what Tolkien did not want. There will be all kinds of various and sundry shows, books, movies, comics, cartoons, etc claiming to be Tolkien but not lining up with each other, let alone the writing of Tolkien himself.

Just like it is quite possible, but not likely that someone at some point may try to reboot the LOTR movies.......

[bledgor]

.......

I like nerd cookie, she has some good videos.

[Flarelaine]

Tolkein, the author, was being a bit xenophobic himself, putting darker skinned (viewed as lesser) humans on the side of Sauron

In his defence, he also gave them reasons to be unfriendly towards Númenoreans.

[InfiniteCharger]

And here is Tolkien himself speaking on his intent:

[Triceron]

And here is Tolkien himself speaking on his intent:

This is a pretty good video and I think it's pretty solid information on how Tolkien intended Middle Earth to be presented.

[Biomega]

This is a pretty good video and I think it's pretty solid information on how Tolkien intended Middle Earth to be presented.

I especially like when he talks about Middle Earth not being any representation of anything real but just "a different imagination", and that of course neither time nor space nor culture would make any sort of 'real-world' sense applied to Middle Earth.

But sure, it has to be all white people because reasons. Mmmmm-hmmmmm.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

I especially like when he talks about Middle Earth not being any representation of anything real but just "a different imagination", and that of course neither time nor space nor culture would make any sort of 'real-world' sense applied to Middle Earth.

But sure, it has to be all white people because reasons. Mmmmm-hmmmmm.

I rather enjoyed the parts where he mentions South Africa and how it contributed to his world building.

So much for “the books should reflect Tolkien’s world” and thus not have black people.

[Tentim]

I rather enjoyed the parts where he mentions South Africa and how it contributed to his world building.

So much for “the books should reflect Tolkien’s world” and thus not have black people.

You also know their role in the overall world as well then. People are picking up on when changes are made solely to pander and it's the mark of a shit product. Useful idoits then defend the product blindly because they are told its morally correct to. The product then fails as the pandering trash it always was and those same idoits spout off " you couldn't of known!!!".

I could end up eating crow but given how they are hiding the plot I'm willing to bet this will go over as well as the wheel of time and the new Ghostbusters.

[Biomega]

I could end up eating crow but given how they are hiding the plot I'm willing to bet this will go over as well as the wheel of time and the new Ghostbusters.

As much as I personally dislike the WoT show, it WAS just greenlit for season 3 before we even got season 2... Which would suggest that it goes over well with SOMEONE, even if it's not me (or you, apparently).

I'll reserve my judgement for this show for when I actually get to watch some of it. I do wish I had the time of my life I wasted on 3 eps of WoT back, but that's the price you pay if you want to see for yourself, I guess. So I'll donate at least some of my time to this show, too, to find out what we've got.

[s_bushido]

Useful idoits then defend the product blindly because they are told its morally correct to.

The irony of this bullshit, of course, is that those who are convinced it will be a failure because there are filthy brown and black people in it are the same ones who show up in comments sections of youtube videos mindlessly regurgitating the same exact comments they heard from [insert online culture war outrage-monger]. The projection is spectacular.

[Tentim]

As much as I personally dislike the WoT show, it WAS just greenlit for season 3 before we even got season 2... Which would suggest that it goes over well with SOMEONE, even if it's not me (or you, apparently).

I'll reserve my judgement for this show for when I actually get to watch some of it. I do wish I had the time of my life I wasted on 3 eps of WoT back, but that's the price you pay if you want to see for yourself, I guess. So I'll donate at least some of my time to this show, too, to find out what we've got.

I have prime for shipping already so I will likely take a peek but my hype level is between ep 2 of wot and ep 2 of halo.

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The irony of this bullshit, of course, is that those who are convinced it will be a failure because there are filthy brown and black people in it are the same ones who show up in comments sections of youtube videos mindlessly regurgitating the same exact comments they heard from [insert online culture war outrage-monger]. The projection is spectacular.

Yes that is the mindless defense of it... the moment plot and source material takes a back seat the production has already given its death rattle.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

You also know their role in the overall world as well then. People are picking up on when changes are made solely to pander and it's the mark of a shit product. Useful idoits then defend the product blindly because they are told its morally correct to. The product then fails as the pandering trash it always was and those same idoits spout off " you couldn't of known!!!".

I could end up eating crow but given how they are hiding the plot I'm willing to bet this will go over as well as the wheel of time and the new Ghostbusters.

Lol no.

There is no “picking up on when changes are made solely to pander” people just screech that they are always pandering at any thing like this even if there is no source material to change like with recent examples Obiwan and Prey.

Also absolutely love that people are still harping on about ghost busters 6 years later and completely ignoring that we have far more analogous comparisons with things like the Witcher which didn’t have any problems being a hit even though it did the exact same things.

[bledgor]

I have prime for shipping already so I will likely take a peek but my hype level is between ep 2 of wot and ep 2 of halo.

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Yes that is the mindless defense of it... the moment plot and source material takes a back seat the production has already given its death rattle.

Man I wonder if it will be as bad as Halo, that is a fucking low bar so doubtful.

[Triceron]

Lol no.

There is no “picking up on when changes are made solely to pander” people just screech that they are always pandering at any thing like this even if there is no source material to change like with recent examples Obiwan and Prey.

Also absolutely love that people are still harping on about ghost busters 6 years later and completely ignoring that we have far more analogous comparisons with things like the Witcher which didn’t have any problems being a hit even though it did the exact same things.

Witcher snd Ghostbusters did not do the same things. At all. I don't think this is comparable considering both handle diversity and representation' in very different ways.

The only way I see Witcher being comparable to that Ghostbusters is if Geralt was genderswapped and given Jasker's personality and Yennefer became a strikingly handsome dude with the intellect of a bicycle.

[Dhrizzle]

Sure, people had a laugh about it...but not to the point where they thought it "ruined" the trilogy or would have tolkien spinning in his grave.

In fairness Christopher Tolkien did say that stuff like that ruined the trilogy (or "eviscerated the story" as he phrased it.)

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The appendices are not intended to provide the full story of the 2nd Age, the Fall of Numenor, who the Numenoreans were and how the Rings of Power got created. The Simalrillion and other works were created during and after the making of the LOTR as Tolkien fleshed these ideas out more. It would be hard to actually tell the story of Numenor and be "faithful" to Tolkien without rights to all those works. And Amazon is basically just using the appendices as justification to say this show is "Tolkien" when in reality it is only Tolkien in name only.

Licensing is complicated. The Fall of Numenor is mentioned in the appendices so they can use that in the series, they can use other published works as reference for that event. On top of that the Tolkien Estate can grant them permission to use anything on a case-by-case basis which is probably how we got that shot of Melkor poised to destroy the Two Trees.

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<snip>

It's honestly impressive that you can quote parts of the policy and then lie about what it says.

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Interesting discussion of what constitutes "Tolkenian" which actually brings up some good points.




However, the bigger issue is that ultimately, the Tolkien estate is not Tolkien the man and as time goes on they will have differing views on what is "Tolkienian".

Simon Tolkien already has had strong opinions on this.




And unfortunately what may actually likely wind up happening is that as time goes on you will get exactly what Tolkien did not want. There will be all kinds of various and sundry shows, books, movies, comics, cartoons, etc claiming to be Tolkien but not lining up with each other, let alone the writing of Tolkien himself.

Just like it is quite possible, but not likely that someone at some point may try to reboot the LOTR movies.......

On the bright side a reboot of the LotR movies might do the books justice and get all the characters right.

[Orby]

On the bright side a reboot of the LotR movies might do the books justice and get all the characters right.

Who did the movies get wrong? I can take a guess, like Aragorn is the standout I think, I know Aragorn felt very different than the books, I'd go out on a limb say Faramir too. Also maybe Glorfindel will get his appropriate spot.

I do feel for the most part a lot of the character were quite faithful to the books, there are nit pick slight changes like Frodo and Sam and maybe the ents, but none that do massive harm to the books.

[DarkAmbient]

Who did the movies get wrong? I can take a guess, like Aragorn is the standout I think, I know Aragorn felt very different than the books, I'd go out on a limb say Faramir too. Also maybe Glorfindel will get his appropriate spot.

I do feel for the most part a lot of the character were quite faithful to the books, there are nit pick slight changes like Frodo and Sam and maybe the ents, but none that do massive harm to the books.

Denethor was done a little dirty. His character wasn't actually changed that much, it's just that we never got to see him before his descent into despair, for which Sauron was partly to blame due to the visions that Sauron fed to him through the palantir.

Eowyn came across way too sappy in the film compared to how she is in the books.

Gimli, Merry and Pippin all became comic relief.