1. #2761
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    Of course I’m not arguing what Tolkien literally intended as there is no way for You or Me to know where he was pulling from when he didn’t mention it, for all we know when referring to Dwarfs being based on Jews he only had brown Jews in mind and they were never suppose to be white given that he never once mentioned there skin tones, there is literally no way to tell what he would have wanted so it’s all left up to Interruption.

    Nor do we have any way of knowing if he would give a toss one way or another if elf’s hobbits or any other none human race/characters were portrayed by none white actors given that as you said they aren’t suppose to line up with real life groups and he rarely mentioned there skin tones and never gives such a divide as he did the humans in the setting.
    My point was his definitions of these different regions and populations in them suggest they would be relatively homogeneous within themselves while across the entire expanse of Middle Earth there was diversity. Therefore as if the hobbits were blue in one area, pink in another or grey in a third, similar to how we see elves in WOW, versus each population of hobbits being a blend of all those colors. I see nothing in his writing that suggests otherwise and technically that reflects how diversity works on a global and regional level. Therefore, generally the hobbits of the shire would all look similar, the Elves of whatever clan would all look similar and the dwarves of the Mines of Moria the same. And as he mentioned in the interview most of these groups were defined by bloodlines, especially at the level of kingship, which he believed in a lot. So that is another example of how he distinguished or segregated groups from one another by bloodline as being part of distinct clans or houses. Also, there are "black" dwarves in Middle Earth, just not the ones we know of from the North Western areas of Middle Earth. Those swarthy or dark skinned dwarves are further south in the lands of Harad. Again, reflecting that these different groups in their respective regions generally looked the same. There is a difference between diversity at the group level vs diversity at the individual level and I don't see Tolkien as intending that individual diversity would exist as implied by Amazaon. In fact, I would argue that even what we have seen so far from Amazon is far from promoting diversity in its fullest sense at the individual level. They have a few black Numenoreans, a few black elves, a few black hobbits and a couple black dwarves out of all these populations, which is what makes it look out of place, because it is just a few which makes them stand out as being so few. No Asian elves, no Asian hobbits, no Asian dwarves, no variation in skin color between the various individuals in these groups showing some as "mixed" for lack of a better term, etc. It looks more like the random choices of a studio rather than what one would expect of a homogeneous population as implied by Tolkien. I honestly don't think they gave more thought to it than some of us in this thread.
    Last edited by InfiniteCharger; 2022-08-15 at 06:58 PM.

  2. #2762
    Merely a Setback Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Dwarves aren't Jews so there's no point in making this argument.
    Your right Dwarfs aren't Jew's but they are how ever based off of them as per Tolkien him self which obviously takes president over any other expert analyst of his work. If you want to say any and every thing Tolkien based is work off of is Irrelevant sure you can do that I suppose but ill stick to his owns from his interview where he said it was Deliberate.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  3. #2763
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    Your right Dwarfs aren't Jew's but they are how ever based off of them as per Tolkien him self which obviously takes president over any other expert analyst of his work. If you want to say any and every thing Tolkien based is work off of is Irrelevant sure you can do that I suppose but ill stick to his owns from his interview where he said it was Deliberate.
    Then all you're doing is telling me you're subjectively interpreting how you see his interview. Nothing more.

    I'm not here to argue how you choose to interpret his interviews. I'm here to point out his interviews have no bearing on the depiction of his original works if he didn't outright revise them to reflect his latest opinions on the matter.

    Sorry but fictional canon isn't retroactive to any author's shift in perspectives.

  4. #2764
    Merely a Setback Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Then all you're doing is telling me you're subjectively interpreting how you see his interview. Nothing more.
    Lol, Ya I'm subjectively interpreting it by going of of Tolkien's own words that he pulled from various real life things, sure why not.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  5. #2765
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    Lol, Ya I'm subjectively interpreting it by going of of Tolkien's own words that he pulled from various real life things, sure why not.
    Yes, you absolutely are.

    Any and all discussion on the nature of a Dwarf's skintone will ultimately be subjective, because there is no objective fact on what their skin color is.

    Even my own answers to you here are not anything beyond subjectivity, because Tolkien himself has not clarified what skin color they actually are. All we can point to objectively is how it isn't clarified and left ambiguous. All we can do is discuss and bring evidence to support what we believe Dwarf skin colors could be. I'm clear to point out that the evidence we have that they were white skinned is not merely baseless, meritless interpretation, but is commonly accepted within the narrative because of many external factors which I've pointed out. And this has been analyzed by Tolkien experts and come to reasonable conclusions that it would be fair to assume that they were white. Commonly accepted depictions are not objective fact, but they are still important to the overall discussion of how things are meant to be depicted. Because in truth, we're still unsure whether Elves have pointed ears at all, and it's still a matter of debate among the experts. All we can say is that they (objectively) aren't depicted with pointed ears in the original fiction.

    If one were to argue that Tolkien meant for Elves to have pointed ears and make note of certain things that he said in interviews regarding their length, then it would be a subjective interpretation of the facts. The fiction itself does not make a clear statement on whether or not their ears were pointed. Tolkien's own opinion on the matter doesn't retroactively apply to how the fiction is presented or interpreted (his opinion, not to be confused with a direct clarification of the lore). It's literally up to fans to decide whether it's fine or not. And making a point that pointed ears are not described in the fiction is important to make a distinction that any modern depiction isn't actually derived from the original fiction, and that it's merely an adaptation or fictional representation that has become commonly accepted. It can not be interpreted as deriving from the original fiction.

    This is where the debate on Dwarven skin tone becomes absolutely ambiguous, because we're lacking information to reasonably apply multicultural skin tones to the Dwarves and it wouldn't be based on any actual descriptions from the novels. Which is the same as taking a creative liberty of separating Orcs and Goblins as different races even though there is nothing in the fiction to support it. It's purely a creative choice for an adaptation.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-08-15 at 10:56 PM.

  6. #2766
    This is the backdrop of Tolkiens fantasy creatures:

    Elf mythology Europe


    Dwarf mythology Europe


    Goblin mythology Europe



    And when most people read Tolkien, it is from that backdrop of European mythology.
    Not to mention most of the imagery associated with Lord of the Rings has been based on that European mythos.

  7. #2767
    Quote Originally Posted by InfiniteCharger View Post
    And when most people read Tolkien, it is from that backdrop of European mythology.
    Not to mention most of the imagery associated with Lord of the Rings has been based on that European mythos.
    "Therefore, no darkies allowed!" Is that the punchline?

  8. #2768
    Quote Originally Posted by Orby View Post
    Who did the movies get wrong? I can take a guess, like Aragorn is the standout I think, I know Aragorn felt very different than the books, I'd go out on a limb say Faramir too. Also maybe Glorfindel will get his appropriate spot.

    I do feel for the most part a lot of the character were quite faithful to the books, there are nit pick slight changes like Frodo and Sam and maybe the ents, but none that do massive harm to the books.
    I reckon Merry is the one who probably had his character shredded the most by the movies, but largely the issue is the way they rush through some aspects of the books in order to focus on the big action scenes. Yeah that makes for a good film but it really doesn't do the books justice. A long series that can double or triple the run time with a focus more on the characters and world, and less on the flashy visuals would be much more true to Tolkien's vision.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DarkAmbient View Post
    Denethor was done a little dirty. His character wasn't actually changed that much, it's just that we never got to see him before his descent into despair, for which Sauron was partly to blame due to the visions that Sauron fed to him through the palantir.

    Eowyn came across way too sappy in the film compared to how she is in the books.

    Gimli, Merry and Pippin all became comic relief.
    I can't remember if it goes into the details in the LotR books or if I picked them up elsewhere, but Denethor is a magnificent character. Like Aragorn his blood runs true to Old Numenor and he is frankly a level above pretty much any other Men around him, almost Elven in his capabilities, which makes him a great ruler but also a lonely figure, respected but not really liked by those around him. It's his singular nature that allowed him to believe he was capable of facing Sauron through the Palantir and ultimately led to his downfall. But I guess some old guy eating a tomato in a gross way is cool too...

  9. #2769
    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    I reckon Merry is the one who probably had his character shredded the most by the movies, but largely the issue is the way they rush through some aspects of the books in order to focus on the big action scenes. Yeah that makes for a good film but it really doesn't do the books justice. A long series that can double or triple the run time with a focus more on the characters and world, and less on the flashy visuals would be much more true to Tolkien's vision.

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    I can't remember if it goes into the details in the LotR books or if I picked them up elsewhere, but Denethor is a magnificent character. Like Aragorn his blood runs true to Old Numenor and he is frankly a level above pretty much any other Men around him, almost Elven in his capabilities, which makes him a great ruler but also a lonely figure, respected but not really liked by those around him. It's his singular nature that allowed him to believe he was capable of facing Sauron through the Palantir and ultimately led to his downfall. But I guess some old guy eating a tomato in a gross way is cool too...
    Personally I think Denethor was mishandled the most. Gimli becoming comic relief was meh but I'd say it served the movie by adding some levity and diversity in terms of personality within the Three Hunters and their immediate cast. Merry and Pippin, the latter especially were never the most mature in the books and the capstone of their arc happening during the Scouring which was cut, for relatively understandable reasons but still.

    Denethor was a gray character in a narrative that, I'll be honest, needed some. He does terrible things out of somewhat sympathetic motives. In the movie he's almost a caricature, not much more than a haggard madman who is bad because it creates tension before and during the battle. I didn't pick it up that much on first watch but on re-reading the books and re-watching it became more and more obvious to me.
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  10. #2770
    Quote Originally Posted by s_bushido View Post
    "Therefore, no darkies allowed!" Is that the punchline?
    Isn't it always?

    They jump through a lot of hoops, but in the end it's always "this isn't 100% like the original", "this isn't what elves used to look like in the LotR films", and of course the classic "I just don't want black people in there because, uh... they don't... uh... fit".

  11. #2771
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    Isn't it always?

    They jump through a lot of hoops, but in the end it's always "this isn't 100% like the original", "this isn't what elves used to look like in the LotR films", and of course the classic "I just don't want black people in there because, uh... they don't... uh... fit".
    I love how this implies ignoring the source material is somehow a good thing.

  12. #2772
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    I love how this implies ignoring the source material is somehow a good thing.
    If your interpretation of the source material is that the only dark-skinned people should be the orcs and evil men of the south, then...yeah. It would be kind of a good thing to ignore that.

  13. #2773
    so after 146 pages of this shit. who has the biggest lore-dick?

  14. #2774
    Quote Originally Posted by s_bushido View Post
    If your interpretation of the source material is that the only dark-skinned people should be the orcs and evil men of the south, then...yeah. It would be kind of a good thing to ignore that.
    Good thing no one is arguing that's the only way the source material needs to be interpreted then.

    Why do they have to always be evil if we're talking about an adaptation that takes tells a story that exists beyond what was in the original novels? New stories can be written, new characters introduced, without shifting the universe and creating a multicultural melting pot out of every race.

    I mean the 2nd age is ripe with stories of how the Numenoreans oppressed and enslaved the men of the east and south, which lead them to distrust the men of the west and side with Sauron. Interesting stories can be told in between, like having a civil conflict between those who sought to join Sauron and those who refuse side with darkness. There's plenty that can be done with the source material without literally shoehorning people of ethnic backgrounds into white-centric roles.

    I'd say the same thing about casting Asians into the role of Elves or Dwarves for the sake of diversity. Why do that when Middle Earth is absolutely open to exploring Asian culture through any other number of means? Rhûn exists. Easterlings exist. There's plenty of untapped material to work with here.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-08-16 at 12:07 AM.

  15. #2775
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    Quote Originally Posted by s_bushido View Post
    If your interpretation of the source material is that the only dark-skinned people should be the orcs and evil men of the south, then...yeah. It would be kind of a good thing to ignore that.
    You do realize that you can tell interesting stories about the people of Harad, their subjugation by the Numenorians and even what ultimately drove them as a society to fighting for Sauron, right? Because that's a story that Tolkien never actually delved into and frankly that would be a lot more interesting than whatever this meme-worthy shitshow is gonna be that tries to play on nostalgia by trying to play on nostalgia with Hobbits despite them not really existing in the time period that the show is set it.

  16. #2776
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Good thing no one is arguing that's how the source material needs to be interpreted then.

    Why do they have to always be evil if we're talking about an adaptation that takes tells a story that exists beyond what was in the original novels?
    lol. The same people freaking out over the prospect of a black elf/dwarf were also mocking the idea of orcs that weren't inherently evil. I quoted them parts of a Tolkien letter that said that they (and even Sauron) had the possibility of being redeemed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    New stories can be written, new characters introduced, without shifting the universe and creating a multicultural melting pot out of every race that we already know of as being monoethnic cultures.
    I'm not sure how many times it needs to be repeated: There's no reason to believe these people would view skin color as a different "ethnicity" in the same way we do in the real world. Nevermind that these are new characters as part of a new story. Nothing has been shifted other than the expectations of racists. Sorry.

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Hobbit movies introduced a new red headed elf character and that was fine. It still respected the rules of the fictional world.
    lol again. So unprecedented red hair is fine because she was still a hot white woman. Got it.

  17. #2777
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    I love how this implies ignoring the source material is somehow a good thing.
    I love how "ignore skin color" becomes "ignore THE ENTIRE LORE why dontcha".

    We get it. Black people make you uncomfortable. Try and get over it.

  18. #2778
    Quote Originally Posted by s_bushido View Post
    lol again. So unprecedented red hair is fine because she was still a hot white woman. Got it.
    What do you have against them?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    I love how "ignore skin color" becomes "ignore THE ENTIRE LORE why dontcha".
    I mean if you're talking about ignoring skin color then what do you think if they made this show with Elves with Purple skin like we have in Warcraft? Or Dwarves with Blue skin?
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-08-16 at 12:39 AM.

  19. #2779
    Still excited for this. Still not bothered by a Black elf in Tolkien fantasy.

    Actually just googled the actor and he's Puerto Rican. I don't even know if he's Black, don't care lol. He looks badass in the clips I've seen and hopefully he smashes the role.

  20. #2780
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    I mean if you're talking about ignoring skin color then what do you think if they made this show with Elves with Purple skin like we have in Warcraft? Or Dwarves with Blue skin?
    Putting aside for the moment the fact that "oh so if black people are okay PURPLE PEOPLE ARE OKAY TOO RIGHT" is a pretty hare-brained objection, yeah, if they make purple elves work, I'm down to fuck.

    I would LOVE to see some well-made neon punk interpretation of popular materials, in fact. That sounds pretty rad.

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