1. #2861
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Again, I'm questioning your own argument. If you can't even define a simple definition of what a 'good reasoning' is then I have no way of meeting that criteria through any sensible argument.
    First off, "good reasoning" is something very different from a "good reason".

    Secondly, I don't have to define it, because it's ALL ABOUT the evaluation. I have no idea what it could be, therefore I'm not putting restrictions on it. That's how presenting evidence works in court, too, by the way - no court has a catalog of what evidence could possibly be, you bring it before them and they decide if they accept it as evidence or not. Because the set of potential reasons is (at least in principle) infinite.

    And I'm not the one making the determination anyway - YOU are. I want you to bring what YOU think is a good reason, and then I'll see if I agree or not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    You can repeat that it's the standard you stand by, and I can continue to point out how ridiculous this standard is.
    Sure you can. And I can point out that this is how evidence has worked for, oh, idk, a couple hundred years at least (probably thousands). You don't have to agree with this. It'd be ridiculous not to, but you don't HAVE to agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    The process doesn't apply equally across the board to all movies.

    Is Crazy Rich Asians racially discriminant for excluding white and black actors in the same roles?
    Gee I wonder, did Crazy Rich ASIANS perhaps have a GOOD REASON to want ASIANS in their cast?

    You already forgot about how my entire argument works on a fundamental level, didn't you. Because it's your turn to talk now, so you don't have to care about what I've been saying.

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    If you can't give me a good reason for why any movie should or could have an all-white cast, then it tells me that the argument is simply unacceptable to you period.
    I've given you an example AND repeated it AND pointed out that I gave you an example and repeated it.

    That is THREE TIMES this was brought up across THREE posts.

    And somehow you still didn't read it? You trollin' or you just, idk, REALLY don't care about what other people are saying?

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Like the Northman- what can you say about this movie to justify it having an all-white cast?
    I haven't seen it, but I imagine they're making a historic argument there. Without more information I couldn't say if it was a good reason or not, but historic films at least have a POTENTIALLY good reason in trying to be historically accurate; that's not a perfect reason, mind you. I'd be 100% with black Vikings, but you could at least in principle make arguments for realism if you have a historic setting contingent on a people as such (i.e. Vikings as a people). I'd have to see the film to say more.

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Not quite sure what you're equating to. I'm assuming this is some American history thing?
    *cough* you're joking, right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Because per your lack of explanation, 'no good reason' even exists.
    Aside from the two examples I've given that you stubbornly ignored, you mean? Or the standards of evidence that we've operated under in both discourse and law for a couple dozen centuries?

    You know fuck all about how this works. Don't lean too far out the window, or you'll fall.

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    If it applies to no-one then it's not worth mentioning in your examples.
    This is about the stupidest thing you've said so far.

    I said you can't just say the racist card applies to anyone, and you go from there to "oh so it applies to NO ONE?" - that's a mistake in logic so elementary it boggles the mind that anyone over the age of 12 would ever think to make it.

    Is this just a language problem? Do you not know how "anyone" works in that sentence? "it applies to anyone" and "it applies to everyone" are not the same thing. The first means "anyone COULD BE hit by this" and the second one means "everyone WILL BE hit by this".

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    What if all the Dwarf and Elf actors were picked for their performance and they just happened to be white? How would we be able to tell the difference?
    You wouldn't. But in a large enough sample, statistics say this is so unlikely to happen that even if it did, it's fine to ignore because it's a one-in-a-billion fluke that doesn't warrant treating the other nine-hundred-ninety-nine-million-etc. cases differently. It's a very acceptable failure rate.

    It's also why extremely small productions can't really be evaluated the same.

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    There's no way to define 'shouldn't be changed' because changing the depiction of the source material is not some inevitable consequence of adapting it.
    Yes. Yes it is. No adaptation in the history of the world has ever been 100% accurate, unless it's for an extremely short, extremely trivial text (like idk, Hemingway's "shortest story" or whatever).

    Nothing on the level of a novella or novel has ever been adapted with 100% accuracy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    We can argue that an adaptation will never be 100% faithful to the adaptation, but you can't somehow twist that to implying that a work must also change because it's an adaptation.
    I'm not saying that it MUST, I'm saying that it DOES. If you want that to mean MUST, FOR REASONS OF PRACTICAL REALITY then I'm fine with that.

    But my argument is NOT that "you HAVE to change skin colors in an adaptation", if that's what you're getting at. Not in any way, shape, or form.

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    I will stand by my example of the Peter Jackson films adapted Elves and Dwarves in a way that remains socially acceptable even by today's standards.
    How do you know? I'd object to it if it was made today, and the only reason I'm not is that it's, well, NOT MADE TODAY. How do you know other people aren't objecting to it for that same reason? Heck, how do you even know it actually IS "socially acceptable", it's not like there's widespread discussion about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    I'd argue that more people would actually prefer it.
    Even IF that was true (and I don't know how you could even tell), it wouldn't matter. Popularity isn't relevant. Good reasons are. Arguing that something is right because it's popular is a logical fallacy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    I have not heard one single argument out there that Lord of the Rings movies are discriminatory because it didn't have Black Dwarves and Elves.
    Because 1. there isn't exactly a big discourse on a 20-year old film to begin with; and 2. people who examine such films critically tend to be aware that you can't just apply today's standards to a work from 20+ years ago.

  2. #2862
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    How do you know? I'd object to it if it was made today, and the only reason I'm not is that it's, well, NOT MADE TODAY. How do you know other people aren't objecting to it for that same reason? Heck, how do you even know it actually IS "socially acceptable", it's not like there's widespread discussion about it.
    Okay, I will be more specific then since we're getting into speculative territory, and I don't want to misrepresent my argument.

    In my opinion, I believe an adaptation of LOTR material that continues to have an All-white cast depiction of Elves and Dwarves would continue to be socially acceptable today because we had the Hobbit movies within the last decade without controversy. We're talking about less than 10 years ago, these movies are still relevant today. We're not talking about the 1950's, we're talking about mid-2010's. And because we literally have movies like the Northman with an all-white cast that is not deemed racially discriminatory, and is considered socially acceptable today.

    In my opinion, the common depiction of all-white Elves and Dwarves is timelessly socially accepted. It is a work of fiction, and more importantly it exists itself in a time when such depictions of mythical races is intended to be white-centric. This allows any modern adaptation of the work with an all-white cast to remain socially acceptable today. It would be akin to any movie choosing to adhere to limit casting diversity for the sake of historical accuracy.

    I don't think that an all-white depictions of Elves and Dwarves would be socially unacceptable today.

    *cough* you're joking, right?
    I'm not American so I don't know what you're actually referring to. Are you talking about Slavery?

    I'm not saying that it MUST, I'm saying that it DOES. If you want that to mean MUST, FOR REASONS OF PRACTICAL REALITY then I'm fine with that.

    But my argument is NOT that "you HAVE to change skin colors in an adaptation", if that's what you're getting at. Not in any way, shape, or form.
    I think that's agreeable and understandable. I have nothing to contend here, and I apologize if my argument implied that you believe it does. I will retract this point respectfully.

    Because 1. there isn't exactly a big discourse on a 20-year old film to begin with; and 2. people who examine such films critically tend to be aware that you can't just apply today's standards to a work from 20+ years ago.
    The Hobbit was within this decade, and followed in LOTR's example. People didn't call it out for racial discrimination 20 years ago, and didn't do so 10 years later. And I can tell you why - because it's not actually racially discriminating anything.

    A choice to depict a fictional race by casting certain ethnicities is not a point of racial discrimination. It is a casting choice. It is an adherence to the depictions of the original novels. And arguably, adherence to the source material can be good reasons to have monoethnic cast roles.

    As it was with Lord of the Rings, as it was with the Hobbit, as it is with modern movies like the Northman.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-08-17 at 02:17 AM.

  3. #2863
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Okay, I will be more specific then since we're getting into speculative territory, and I don't want to misrepresent my argument.

    In my opinion, I believe an adaptation of LOTR material that continues to have an All-white cast depiction of Elves and Dwarves would continue to be socially acceptable today because we had the Hobbit movies within the last decade without controversy.
    So your argument for why a 20-year old movie would be fine is that a 10-year old movie would be fine?

    I'm not sure I'd agree. But it's a specious point anyway because it's an unprovable hypothetical. At the end of the day, I don't really CARE whether or not a LotR movie cast the exact same way as it was 20 years ago would rile people up or not. I'm concerned with what is ACTUALLY happening. Hypotheticals like that have no value as an argument, because they're pure speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    In my opinion, the common depiction of all-white Elves and Dwarves is timelessly socially accepted.
    I'm not sure what "timeless" is supposed to mean there; but it doesn't matter. This is just another way of arguing from popularity. I don't really care if something is accepted or not, I care about whether or not there are GOOD REASONS behind it. Was interracial marriage socially accepted in the US during the 1950s? Not even close. Were there good reasons to do it anyway? YES. Were Jim Crow laws socially accepted in the US during the 1950s? Yes. Was there a good reason to have them? FUCK NO.

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    I don't think that an all-white depictions of Elves and Dwarves would be socially unacceptable today.
    And if that was ever something that was relevant to me, I'd care about it, I guess. I never talked about social acceptance or that mattering in any way. People can "socially accept" terrible things, that doesn't make them good things (and vice versa). And whether or not something is a good thing is all I care about.

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    I'm not American so I don't know what you're actually referring to.
    I'm not American either. But anyone with any kind of education really should know what was going on in the US Deep South in the 1950s. PARTICULARLY in a discussion about race.

  4. #2864
    Quote Originally Posted by Rennadrel View Post
    I bet if you tried to insert white characters into the hierarchy of Wakanda
    You realize that Martin Freeman was one of the major characters in the first movie, and is reprising his role in the 2nd...right? And yet magically no one cared that there was a white guy in a mostly black movie about a fictional country in Africa. Amazing how that works.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rennadrel View Post
    Middle Earth is a culmination of Germanic cultures, with the Easterners and Southrons being of darker skin. Kind of like Europe and it's proximity to the Middle East and Africa. It makes sense that the northern realms are a reflection of Anglo Saxon and Nordic skin tone while those in the south and east are darker, that's literally how the geography of our world worked when Tolkien created his works.
    Talking about the geography of a fictional world where its god literally made a sphere out of what was once a flat earth because of the evil actions of men...well...that's certainly a take one could have.

    But even if it were true that this whole thing was based on "Germanic cultures," I wonder what you think about that requires those people to have a certain skin color. Especially since they don't belong to "Germanic cultures" themselves.
    Last edited by s_bushido; 2022-08-17 at 03:13 AM.

  5. #2865
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    So your argument for why a 20-year old movie would be fine is that a 10-year old movie would be fine?

    I'm not sure I'd agree. But it's a specious point anyway because it's an unprovable hypothetical. At the end of the day, I don't really CARE whether or not a LotR movie cast the exact same way as it was 20 years ago would rile people up or not. I'm concerned with what is ACTUALLY happening. Hypotheticals like that have no value as an argument, because they're pure speculation.
    Arguably, any good reason for an all-white cast for a modern LOTR would be hypothetical.

    If you're not interested in speculation and hypotheticals, then I don't see why you would bother humoring any good reason for a scenario that literally does not exist.

    It's not just 'a point', it's literally this entire discussion.

    I'm not sure what "timeless" is supposed to mean there; but it doesn't matter. This is just another way of arguing from popularity. I don't really care if something is accepted or not, I care about whether or not there are GOOD REASONS behind it. Was interracial marriage socially accepted in the US during the 1950s? Not even close. Were there good reasons to do it anyway? YES. Were Jim Crow laws socially accepted in the US during the 1950s? Yes. Was there a good reason to have them? FUCK NO.
    Then all you're saying is you don't care whether it makes sense, you only care whether it makes sense to you.

    There is no actual common ground to your argument. We're not actually meeting in between anywhere. There's no actual standard at which we can meet.

    On one hand you criticize the choice to have an all-white cast as being subject to social criticism and how it would not work today (with no good reason). Then you say you don't care about social criticism and only care about whether there's a good reason for it to happen.

    And now you say you're not interested in speculation at all, while any 'Good reason' would be hypothetical.

    I honestly don't know what you're actually looking for.

    And if that was ever something that was relevant to me, I'd care about it, I guess. I never talked about social acceptance or that mattering in any way. People can "socially accept" terrible things, that doesn't make them good things (and vice versa). And whether or not something is a good thing is all I care about.
    I'd argue that an all-white cast sticking to the source material to depict a fictional all-white race is not a terrible thing.

    I'm not American either. But anyone with any kind of education really should know what was going on in the US Deep South in the 1950s. PARTICULARLY in a discussion about race.
    That's quite ignorant to assume when I already told you I don't know what you were talking about. So I guess you don't read everything I say after all.

    I'm not sure why you even consider it relevant to the movie depiction of fictional races.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-08-17 at 04:48 AM.

  6. #2866
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    If you're not interested in speculation and hypotheticals, then I don't see why you would bother humoring any good reason for a scenario that literally does not exist.
    What are you referring to here? I'm a bit confused. I'm concerned with actual films actually being cast in the actual present. You're the one who keeps bringing up hypotheticals.

    And just to be clear: hypotheticals are not the same as principles.

    Would people complain about a LotR cast from 20 years ago today? If not, that'd strengthen your position; if yes, that'd strengthen my position. Which one is the real one? NO FUCKING WAY TO EVER TELL, because it's a completely fabricated scenario that's untestable and unprovable. It's useless for a discussion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    On one hand you criticize the choice to have an all-white cast
    Okay let's cut this off right here.

    I told you SIX TIMES to stop it with the "all-white cast" thing. That's something YOU invented. I'm NOT talking about that, and I've told you many times. You keep going back. Are you interested in engaging with my ACTUAL position, or not? Tell me now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    And now you say you're not interested in speculation at all, while any 'Good reason' would only be applicable to a hypothetical situation.
    When did I ever say "good reason" is "only applicable to a hypothetical situation"? When I told you to stop trying to find some "objective" truth and just BRING ME ACTUAL REASONS, perhaps?

    YOU brought in the hypotheticals. I only ever talked about them when answering you about them. I'm talking about PRINCIPLES, not hypotheticals; those are not the same fucking thing, so stop pretending they are.

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    I honestly don't know what you're actually looking for, nor at this point do I really care.
    That's been pretty clear. You were never interested in engaging with my positions, which is why you never got them right, repeatedly ignored examples then asked me for examples, and STILL can't get something right I've corrected you on SIX TIMES (even counting as I did so).

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    That's quite ignorant to assume when I already told you I don't know what you were talking about.
    How is that "ignorant", you illiterate fuck? I'm LAMENTING the fact you don't know about something that should be common knowledge for anyone of even moderate education, obviously I'm aware you don't know it when I'm saying YOU SHOULD. Are you genuinely incapable of parsing even the simplest statements, or what's going on here?

    Tell me if you have some kind of reading deficiency or something, I don't want to rail on you if it's not your fault. But read a fucking history book sometime or something, hot damn. We're trying to discuss the problems of racism and you don't know what went on in the Southern US in the 1950s. I mean COME ON.

  7. #2867
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    What are you referring to here? I'm a bit confused. I'm concerned with actual films actually being cast in the actual present. You're the one who keeps bringing up hypotheticals.

    Would people complain about a LotR cast from 20 years ago today? If not, that'd strengthen your position; if yes, that'd strengthen my position. Which one is the real one? NO FUCKING WAY TO EVER TELL, because it's a completely fabricated scenario that's untestable and unprovable. It's useless for a discussion.
    So is defining whether Rings of Power's choice for forced diversity is a good thing today. THAT IS LITERALLY A HYPOTHETICAL SITUATION.

    The show isn't even out yet.

    Rings of Power has been subject to a backlash that puts the benefits of forced diversity into question. As someone who supports the creative choices behind this series, I can't even remotely say whether its creative choices are a good thing or not.

    I don't have a strong opinion on the casting choices either way because I'm not even remotely interested in the characters or how this show chooses to depict them. I'm literally only interested in seeing the creatures and rise of the Nazgul, not for its acting or plot. Pretty much how I just watched the Hobbit movies for Smaug and the Battle of Five Armies.

    I'd prefer for this adaptation to stick to the source material and depict Elves and Dwarves in a similar fashion to the Peter Jackson movies. I value the world and setting of Middle Earth, and I'm fond of Peter Jackson's depiction of its races. But I'm not going to be remiss if they choose not to stick to the source (or PJ adaptations) either, and I'm in full support of them taking creative liberties where they choose to. I'm not going to be watching RoP for its plot anyways, I can just treat it as a typical hollywood blockbuster that I don't have to invest myself into too deeply.

    Okay let's cut this off right here.

    I told you SIX TIMES to stop it with the "all-white cast" thing. That's something YOU invented. I'm NOT talking about that, and I've told you many times. You keep going back. Are you interested in engaging with my ACTUAL position, or not? Tell me now.
    "if there is no good reason to exclude people based on skin color, then I wouldn't accept it"

    And I've been arguing that the creative choice to have an a cast mono-ethnically does not immediately equate to 'excluding people based on skin color' for the mere reason of their skin color. There is sufficient reasoning through adherence to the depiction of races in the source material.

    Does Crazy Rich Asians have a good reason to exclude people based on skin color? I would say Yes it does have a good reason, and we both seem to agree here.

    Does Lord of the Rings have a good reason to exclude people based on skin color for the depiction of certain fictional races? I would say Yes, and you would argue No.

    In both situations, we're talking about representing certain cultures a certain way by casting people of a certain ethnicity into the roles.

    On principle, there is no difference whether we are talking about representing a real life ethnic culture, like we have in Crazy Rich Asians, or if we're talking about a fictional ethnic culture, like the Elves in Lord of the Rings. The principle behind accepting a monoethnic casting choice to represent the ethnicities/races in both movies should be the same. They should not be subject to 'excluding people based on skin color' because they are both seeking to represent a particular ethnic culture, whether historic, modern or fictional.

    How is that "ignorant", you illiterate fuck? I'm LAMENTING the fact you don't know about something that should be common knowledge for anyone of even moderate education, obviously I'm aware you don't know it when I'm saying YOU SHOULD. Are you genuinely incapable of parsing even the simplest statements, or what's going on here?

    Tell me if you have some kind of reading deficiency or something, I don't want to rail on you if it's not your fault. But read a fucking history book sometime or something, hot damn. We're trying to discuss the problems of racism and you don't know what went on in the Southern US in the 1950s. I mean COME ON.
    Neither of us are American
    We aren't actually talking about American history.
    I admitted to not understanding your reference
    You took no effort in elaborating or explaining what you were actually talking about while continuing to make references as though I should.

    And you dare call me an 'illiterate fuck' while admitting you were aware that I didn't know?


    I'll let you dwell on this one.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-08-17 at 06:02 AM.

  8. #2868
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    First off, "good reasoning" is something very different from a "good reason".

    Secondly, I don't have to define it, because it's ALL ABOUT the evaluation. I have no idea what it could be, therefore I'm not putting restrictions on it. That's how presenting evidence works in court, too, by the way - no court has a catalog of what evidence could possibly be, you bring it before them and they decide if they accept it as evidence or not. Because the set of potential reasons is (at least in principle) infinite.

    And I'm not the one making the determination anyway - YOU are. I want you to bring what YOU think is a good reason, and then I'll see if I agree or not.


    Sure you can. And I can point out that this is how evidence has worked for, oh, idk, a couple hundred years at least (probably thousands). You don't have to agree with this. It'd be ridiculous not to, but you don't HAVE to agree.


    Gee I wonder, did Crazy Rich ASIANS perhaps have a GOOD REASON to want ASIANS in their cast?

    You already forgot about how my entire argument works on a fundamental level, didn't you. Because it's your turn to talk now, so you don't have to care about what I've been saying.


    I've given you an example AND repeated it AND pointed out that I gave you an example and repeated it.

    That is THREE TIMES this was brought up across THREE posts.

    And somehow you still didn't read it? You trollin' or you just, idk, REALLY don't care about what other people are saying?


    I haven't seen it, but I imagine they're making a historic argument there. Without more information I couldn't say if it was a good reason or not, but historic films at least have a POTENTIALLY good reason in trying to be historically accurate; that's not a perfect reason, mind you. I'd be 100% with black Vikings, but you could at least in principle make arguments for realism if you have a historic setting contingent on a people as such (i.e. Vikings as a people). I'd have to see the film to say more.


    *cough* you're joking, right?


    Aside from the two examples I've given that you stubbornly ignored, you mean? Or the standards of evidence that we've operated under in both discourse and law for a couple dozen centuries?

    You know fuck all about how this works. Don't lean too far out the window, or you'll fall.


    This is about the stupidest thing you've said so far.

    I said you can't just say the racist card applies to anyone, and you go from there to "oh so it applies to NO ONE?" - that's a mistake in logic so elementary it boggles the mind that anyone over the age of 12 would ever think to make it.

    Is this just a language problem? Do you not know how "anyone" works in that sentence? "it applies to anyone" and "it applies to everyone" are not the same thing. The first means "anyone COULD BE hit by this" and the second one means "everyone WILL BE hit by this".


    You wouldn't. But in a large enough sample, statistics say this is so unlikely to happen that even if it did, it's fine to ignore because it's a one-in-a-billion fluke that doesn't warrant treating the other nine-hundred-ninety-nine-million-etc. cases differently. It's a very acceptable failure rate.

    It's also why extremely small productions can't really be evaluated the same.


    Yes. Yes it is. No adaptation in the history of the world has ever been 100% accurate, unless it's for an extremely short, extremely trivial text (like idk, Hemingway's "shortest story" or whatever).

    Nothing on the level of a novella or novel has ever been adapted with 100% accuracy.


    I'm not saying that it MUST, I'm saying that it DOES. If you want that to mean MUST, FOR REASONS OF PRACTICAL REALITY then I'm fine with that.

    But my argument is NOT that "you HAVE to change skin colors in an adaptation", if that's what you're getting at. Not in any way, shape, or form.


    How do you know? I'd object to it if it was made today, and the only reason I'm not is that it's, well, NOT MADE TODAY. How do you know other people aren't objecting to it for that same reason? Heck, how do you even know it actually IS "socially acceptable", it's not like there's widespread discussion about it.


    Even IF that was true (and I don't know how you could even tell), it wouldn't matter. Popularity isn't relevant. Good reasons are. Arguing that something is right because it's popular is a logical fallacy.


    Because 1. there isn't exactly a big discourse on a 20-year old film to begin with; and 2. people who examine such films critically tend to be aware that you can't just apply today's standards to a work from 20+ years ago.
    You do know there are very explicit rules about what evidence qualifies for use in court, though?

    This discussion can go on for hundreds of pages and still not resolve. Both sides believe the other sides arguments are ludicrous.

    There are arguments on both sides, to be sure. I happen to stand in the camp that believes inclusivity in this is more important than staying true to the source material. With a movie like “the northmen” I believe it’s a good thing they made an all white cast. I don’t see these as contradictory facts, because they’re a different type of movie.

    Saying they don’t need to make it more inclusive, because the lotr or hobbit wasnt, seems like a fallacy. “This can’t be wrong, my family has done this for generations”. Were we to follow that logic, slavery would not have been abolished in the USA.

    There will always be a “forefront” of social development. In the 19th century people were mocked for wanting voting rights for women. In the 20th century people were mocked for their liberal ideas of letting women attend college.

    Perhaps this point will someday stand among those. Perhaps it won’t. Time will tell.
    Last edited by Veggie50; 2022-08-17 at 06:03 AM.

  9. #2869
    Quote Originally Posted by Veggie50 View Post
    You do know there are very explicit rules about what evidence qualifies for use in court, though?

    This discussion can go on for hundreds of pages and still not resolve. Both sides believe the other sides arguments are ludicrous.

    There are arguments on both sides, to be sure. I happen to stand in the camp that believes inclusivity in this is more important than staying true to the source material. With a movie like “the northmen” I believe it’s a good thing they made an all white cast. I don’t see these as contradictory facts, because they’re a different type of movie.
    I think you make some valid points here, and thank you for being respectful to both sides.

    Saying they don’t need to make it more inclusive, because the lotr or hobbit wasnt, seems like a fallacy. “This can’t be wrong, my family has done this for generations”. Were we to follow that logic, slavery would not have been abolished in the USA.

    There will always be a “forefront” of social development. In the 19th century people were mocked for wanting voting rights for women. In the 20th century people were mocked for their liberal ideas of letting women attend college.

    Perhaps this point will someday stand among those. Perhaps it won’t. Time will tell.
    I get where you're coming from, and I respectfully disagree.

    I think most people come at this from a perspective of preference, rather than one of moral significance. The argument isn't that "anything other than White Elves and White Dwarves would be wrong", it's that the 6 movie adaptations we already have depict it a certain way and people prefer that depiction. And considering this is a work of fiction with races known to be depicted as being white, I don't see how it would be any different to the Northman in creatively choosing to depict its cast that way. I personally do not think that following the logic of the previous LOTR films would prevent or regress diversity in movies moving forward. I honestly consider this comparable to that of the Northman. Both history and Middle Earth's fiction sources a white-dominant setting, and both are depicted as being white dominant. Neither of these works are racially discriminant nor are they intentionally excluding other races without sufficient reasoning.

    Just my opinion, but Lord of the Rings isn't necessarily the best platform to progress social development. I'd say that if we want greater diversity and inclusion in media, then we should support the creators who tell those stories. I don't think forced diversity and race swapping into existing properties has been good for the progress of inclusion and diversity in media. We can look around right now, and this type of movement has been controversial and dividing opinions on the internet into tribes. I feel like companies are weaponizing diversity, and it's dividing the fans. We want more Martin Luther King, not more Malcolm X.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-08-17 at 06:37 AM.

  10. #2870
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    I get where you're coming from, and I respectfully disagree.

    I think you make some valid points here, and thank you for being respectful to both sides.


    I think most people come at this from a perspective of preference, rather than one of moral significance. The argument isn't that "anything other than White Elves and White Dwarves would be wrong", it's that the 6 movie adaptations we already have depict it a certain way and people prefer that depiction. And considering this is a work of fiction with races known to be depicted as being white, I don't see how it would be any different to the Northman in creatively choosing to depict its cast that way. I personally do not think that following the logic of the previous LOTR films would prevent or regress diversity in movies moving forward. I honestly consider this comparable to that of the Northman. Both history and Middle Earth's fiction sources a white-dominant setting, and both are depicted as being white dominant. Neither of these works are racially discriminant nor are they intentionally excluding other races without sufficient reasoning.

    Just my opinion, but Lord of the Rings isn't necessarily the best platform to progress social development. I'd say that if we want greater diversity and inclusion in media, then we should support the creators who tell those stories. I don't think forced diversity and race swapping into existing properties has been good for the progress of inclusion and diversity in media. We can look around right now, and this type of movement has been controversial and dividing opinions on the internet into tribes. I feel like companies are weaponizing diversity, and it's dividing the fans. We want more Martin Luther King, not more Malcolm X.
    You make a lot of interesting points, so I'd like to go by them point by point (starting where you disagree, of course. Agreement makes terrible discourse).

    I think most people come at this from a perspective of preference, rather than one of moral significance. The argument isn't that "anything other than White Elves and White Dwarves would be wrong", it's that the 6 movie adaptations we already have depict it a certain way and people prefer that depiction.
    This is definitely the most optimistic approach to why people would prefer a non-inclusive cast. I've seen many MANY arguing that it's wrong because "dwarves can't be black, they live underground". In my opinion arguments like that hold little water, but I wouldn't want your take to feel lobbed in with them, because it is a genuine point.

    I would however challenge it with "we don't know which version people prefer, or wether it makes a difference in the appraisal at all. It hasn't released yet."

    And considering this is a work of fiction with races known to be depicted as being white, I don't see how it would be any different to the Northman in creatively choosing to depict its cast that way.
    While I agree the people of the west in middle earth are likely imagened as purely white by Tolkien, it is still a complete fantasy world so the races COULD be different. This is purely an opinion, and to my opinion being a little less faithful here to be more inclusive is a very acceptable trade-off. The difference with The Northman is that Northman actually refers to an historic people. I also believe a poc shouldn't be playing the queen of England in a historical drama.

    I personally do not think that following the logic of the previous LOTR films would prevent or regress diversity in movies moving forward. I honestly consider this comparable to that of the Northman. Both history and Middle Earth's fiction sources a white-dominant setting, and both are depicted as being white dominant. Neither of these works are racially discriminant nor are they intentionally excluding other races without sufficient reasoning.
    This might surprise you, but I don't disagree. I do not in any way consider the original trilogy to be a negative to inclusivity.

    Apparently the creators of this show are not satisfied with "not being a negative" and want it to be "a positive". I don't believe that is a bad or wrong idea. It just prioritizes something different than absolute adherence to Tolkien. Of course that's a shame, and we can disagree on wether that's a worthy trade-off, but here we are.

    Just my opinion, but Lord of the Rings isn't necessarily the best platform to progress social development. I'd say that if we want greater diversity and inclusion in media, then we should support the creators who tell those stories. I don't think forced diversity and race swapping into existing properties has been good for the progress of inclusion and diversity in media. We can look around right now, and this type of movement has been controversial and dividing opinions on the internet into tribes. I feel like companies are weaponizing diversity, and it's dividing the fans. We want more Martin Luther King, not more Malcolm X.
    I agree it's not the BEST place, but it is also not a BAD place for a small step. Social change always creates a feeling of some unease, because it's a change in the status quo. That unease inherently creates different camps, it always has in history. Companies "weaponizing" anything would require the companies wanting to harm someone (as per the use of a weapon). I believe Hanlon's razor is at work here, meaning they just want to appeal to as many people as possible, and just fuck it up sometimes.

    Hey if the black elf starts throwing rap beats I will agree this is one of the fuckups. A dark elf/dwarf/hobbit being in the series at all though? In my opinion; who cares, and it's important to others.

  11. #2871
    My dudes.. what are you doing here.

    All of you, plx. … just please stahp these walls of texts and enjoy your time off…


    I was hoping to see some fun banter about the lotr series but… well this is not that.

  12. #2872
    Quote Originally Posted by Gombadoh View Post
    My dudes.. what are you doing here.

    All of you, plx. … just please stahp these walls of texts and enjoy your time off…


    I was hoping to see some fun banter about the lotr series but… well this is not that.
    Sorry, it fell to the overarching debate about racial inclusivity in modern media.

  13. #2873
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gombadoh View Post
    My dudes.. what are you doing here.

    All of you, plx. … just please stahp these walls of texts and enjoy your time off…


    I was hoping to see some fun banter about the lotr series but… well this is not that.
    I did want to create another thread like name it the 'positive discussion'. Cos I do agree you cannot discuss anything about the show here because its smothered by people talking about skin colour. I have tried to change the subject around but it just goes back to the same shit again.

    Not sure if the mods would allow it, but hopefully they will let us create another thread. And leave this thread to the outrage. ITs not fair on those that are looking forward to the show. this coming from someone who is highly sceptical about the show myself.
    Last edited by Orby; 2022-08-17 at 09:47 AM.
    I love Warcraft, I dislike WoW

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  14. #2874
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    The other one will end up exactly the same.

  15. #2875
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    That doesn't fly, because the only reason here is circular logic - "it's not how the author wrote it, therefore it shouldn't be changed because then it wouldn't be how the author wrote it".

    And there's HUNDREDS of things that aren't how the author wrote it in ANY adaptation - things like height, hair color, eye color, the color of clothing, coats of horses, etc. etc. are all changed all the time and nobody complains. Why is skin color different? If "it's not like in the books" was sufficient as an argument, all those OTHER details also wouldn't work (and indeed NO adaptation could EVER observe such strictness).


    That's trivial to fix, though. This rests on the assumption that character X has their skin color changed but no one in their family tree - including those characters that are never seen - do NOT have their skin color changed. Which you have no way of knowing, and could easily be fixed by, you know, ALSO changing those characters.

    But even if you do not - the same as above applies here. There's plenty of times where some characters are related in the story, but the actors could not possibly be; usually because of eye color/hair color combinations that don't work genetically, or traits like cleft chins, dimples, etc. all of which have specific requirements in order to be present in certain familial relationships. BUT NOBODY EVER CARES ABOUT THOSE. Why suddenly care about skin color?
    I literally do care about those. Also the lines of succession part has nothing to do with skin color which just tells me you are just hear to call people racist or you would know what I was talking about.

    I'm trying hard not to spell it out in case they do use some form of the original line even if it looks super unlikely.

    Also this isn't an American story there is no reason the American melting pot should be present I specifically used an example that you would foam at the mouth if cast members of the principal cast were changed to white

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Rennadrel View Post
    I bet if you tried to insert white characters into the hierarchy of Wakanda, people like Triceron would throw a temper tantrum and call you a colonialist, bigoted racist for doing so, even if it made complete sense to the plot (which it doesn't, because Black Panther is based in Africa, not America). Middle Earth is a culmination of Germanic cultures, with the Easterners and Southrons being of darker skin. Kind of like Europe and it's proximity to the Middle East and Africa. It makes sense that the northern realms are a reflection of Anglo Saxon and Nordic skin tone while those in the south and east are darker, that's literally how the geography of our world worked when Tolkien created his works.
    I think you mean Biomega here not Triceron, ya know the dude who can only come up with movie about Nazis as a reason for an all white cast. Can't even come up with Midwest biopic from the 40s in rural Indiana
    Last edited by Xath; 2022-08-17 at 12:32 PM.

  16. #2876
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    So is defining whether Rings of Power's choice for forced diversity is a good thing today. THAT IS LITERALLY A HYPOTHETICAL SITUATION.
    That's not what hypothetical means or how you use it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    I'd prefer for this adaptation to stick to the source material and depict Elves and Dwarves in a similar fashion to the Peter Jackson movies.
    And by that do you mean skin color or do you mean something else?

    Are you okay with excluding actors of certain skin colors from depicting elves/dwarves? And if yes - why?

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    "if there is no good reason to exclude people based on skin color, then I wouldn't accept it"

    And I've been arguing that the creative choice to have an a cast mono-ethnically does not immediately equate to 'excluding people based on skin color' for the mere reason of their skin color. There is sufficient reasoning through adherence to the depiction of races in the source material.
    So BRING THOSE REASONS. You keep saying this, but you don't bring the actual reasons.

    All you've brought so far is "it's not like in the books" and "the PJ films did it differently". Do you HAVE good reasons? Then bring them and we can discuss them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    On principle, there is no difference whether we are talking about representing a real life ethnic culture, like we have in Crazy Rich Asians, or if we're talking about a fictional ethnic culture, like the Elves in Lord of the Rings. The principle behind accepting a monoethnic casting choice to represent the ethnicities/races in both movies should be the same.
    Except both stories don't TREAT skin color/race the same. Skin color in Tolkien's works has never been anything but a cosmetic detail. It's never made the topic of any of his plots, it's never given narrative relevance of any kind anywhere, and in many cases it's not even mentioned or defined AT ALL in the first place (like for the dwarves). For Tolkien, culture and language are the prime distinguishing factors, skin color is not.
    In CRA, race plays an integral role; heck the film BEGINS with a scene about racism (Eleanor in the hotel). It's about a specific culture in which race ABSOLUTELY plays a role, including phenotype.

    Those are not the same kind of story, and they treat race/skin color VERY differently.

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    They should not be subject to 'excluding people based on skin color' because they are both seeking to represent a particular ethnic culture, whether historic, modern or fictional.
    You're asserting that ethnicity equals skin color and matters to Tolkien in any way. Culture and language matter to him. Skin color does not. Which is why it's barely mentioned anywhere and is NEVER relevant to the plot ANYWHERE.

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    You took no effort in elaborating or explaining what you were actually talking about while continuing to make references as though I should.
    And YOU SHOULD. Read Wikipedia or something, it takes all of ten minutes to get the gist.

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    And you dare call me an 'illiterate fuck' while admitting you were aware that I didn't know?
    Oh 100%. I've talked about something in history that's of extreme importance to the history of racism (and that really everyone should know about, period). You said you didn't know about it. AND DID YOU GO AND REMEDY THAT BY READING UP ABOUT IT SOMEWHERE? Apparently not.

    QED.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Xath View Post
    I literally do care about those.
    If your standards are so strict you demand 100% accuracy to the original text, no adaptation EVER is going to suffice.

    If you accept less than 100% accuracy, then it's a negotiation about which details matter and which do not, in which case you need to justify why skin color matters if e.g. the color of a dress does not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xath View Post
    Also the lines of succession part has nothing to do with skin color which just tells me you are just hear to call people racist or you would know what I was talking about.

    I'm trying hard not to spell it out in case they do use some form of the original line even if it looks super unlikely.
    How about you DO spell it out so people know what you're talking about.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xath View Post
    Also this isn't an American story there is no reason the American melting pot should be present
    And that's not my argument. I'm not saying and have never said "this cast needs to look like US society". I'm only ever saying "if you want to exclude actors based on skin color, you need a good reason".

    Quote Originally Posted by Xath View Post
    I think you mean Biomega here not Triceron, ya know the dude who can only come up with movie about Nazis as a reason for an all white cast. Can't even come up with Midwest biopic from the 40s in rural Indiana
    So you're being a disingenuous snot noodle who goes from "here's one example" to "LOL HE THINKS THIS IS THE ONLY EXAMPLE"? I've even said, explicitly, that there's potentially infinite reasons, which is WHY I don't concern myself with making an exhaustive list but judge everything that's brought case-by-case.

    But that would require you actually reading what I said, wouldn't it.

  17. #2877
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    And by that do you mean skin color or do you mean something else?

    Are you okay with excluding actors of certain skin colors from depicting elves/dwarves? And if yes - why?
    I am okay with it because casting choices are inherrently going to be exclusionary at some level no matter how you cut it.

    I personally do not expect a role like Galadriel was inclusive and auditioned people of color for her role. Nor would this have applied to a majority of the established characters like Elrond, Gil-galad and such. I believe Amazon had to a certain depiction of the characters in mind and cast accordingly. If your argument that these roles were inclusive and did not exclude people of color, then the burden of proof is on you to show it and prove that Rings of Power is free from exclusion at all levels, per your argument.

    So yes, I will argue that I'm okay with 'some levels of exclusion' because I do not equate all casting choices with certain skintones in mind to be a product of racial discrimination (though it can be, in certain cases). I do not consider all roles being equally open to every actor regardless of skintone, and that skin tone playing a factor in the casting of certain roles as being a normal part of film casting and production. I do not believe Rings of Power is a strong example of a production that is free from the practices of casting roles exclusively for skintone.

    Exclusion will continue to exist unless we are talking about a work that involves race swapping every role, where skin color is literally treated as a cosmetic as you imply it to be. Something like the Hamilton theatre play where every character is representable by any person of color.

    I don't think this applies equally across the board with Rings of Power. I think the casting choices are targeted and specific. If your argument is that having black actors cast in various roles does not justify excluding them from others, then I'll happily point out that every known white depicted Elf from the PJ films are also being depicted by white actors in Rings of Power. The only black actors in the show are representing new characters. The representation of Elves and Dwarves remains 90+% white (as far as we've seen). I do not consider this an example of a show that is free from exclusion.

    So BRING THOSE REASONS. You keep saying this, but you don't bring the actual reasons.

    All you've brought so far is "it's not like in the books" and "the PJ films did it differently". Do you HAVE good reasons? Then bring them and we can discuss them.
    Regardless of what your personal convictions are, those are good reasons.

    It's not my problem if you have zero regard for any adaptation being faithful to the source material or are indifferent to how people prefer depictions from existing adaptations. I have no potion of ignorance-curing to offer you.

    Except both stories don't TREAT skin color/race the same. Skin color in Tolkien's works has never been anything but a cosmetic detail. It's never made the topic of any of his plots, it's never given narrative relevance of any kind anywhere, and in many cases it's not even mentioned or defined AT ALL in the first place (like for the dwarves). For Tolkien, culture and language are the prime distinguishing factors, skin color is not.
    In CRA, race plays an integral role; heck the film BEGINS with a scene about racism (Eleanor in the hotel). It's about a specific culture in which race ABSOLUTELY plays a role, including phenotype.
    If that were the case then there is no reason for the cast to remain 80%+ white.

    There is no reason why any of the main Elf characters would be white as we see them now in thr trailers. Your argument literally does not work when applied across the board, and you have made a point to argue against justifying any type of exclusion despite there already being strong cases that certain roles have been cast exclusively with an actor's skin and hair color in mind (hair color may be more flexible since wigs are a thing).

    Despite what you think Rings of Power is actually doing, there are always going to be roles that will be specific to a certain look in mind that ultimately excludes people of certain races and gender.

    Rings of Power is not an example of an adaptation that is free from exclusion.

    Those are not the same kind of story, and they treat race/skin color VERY differently.

    You're asserting that ethnicity equals skin color and matters to Tolkien in any way. Culture and language matter to him. Skin color does not. Which is why it's barely mentioned anywhere and is NEVER relevant to the plot ANYWHERE.
    You can make an argument that the plot would be the same even if the actress is different, but I will make a point that Galadriel is literally depicted in the same skin tone and hair color as depicted in both the source material and PJ films, and that a casting choice to stick to the source material would involve exclusion at some level.

    Our debate is literally relevant only to the small percentage of POC actors, and somehow you are propping this minority of diversity on a pedestal as a shining example of progress and inclusion, and as an example of a show that has been freed from exclusion. It's quite ridiculous.

    We have literally seen one Black Elf and one Black Dwarf. Any others may be represented merely by a handful of extras. In your own argument, this would not justify casting (potentially) excluding people of color for a majority of other roles.


    Oh 100%. I've talked about something in history that's of extreme importance to the history of racism (and that really everyone should know about, period). You said you didn't know about it. AND DID YOU GO AND REMEDY THAT BY READING UP ABOUT IT SOMEWHERE? Apparently not.
    Sure. If you can cohesively explain how Amazon's Rings of Power adaptation is relevant to this specific point in American history then I'll consider looking it up.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-08-17 at 03:58 PM.

  18. #2878
    I'd like to know how many people here were upset that the new Jake from State Farm is black. Still wearing khakis, though!

  19. #2879
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    That's not what hypothetical means or how you use it.


    And by that do you mean skin color or do you mean something else?

    Are you okay with excluding actors of certain skin colors from depicting elves/dwarves? And if yes - why?


    So BRING THOSE REASONS. You keep saying this, but you don't bring the actual reasons.

    All you've brought so far is "it's not like in the books" and "the PJ films did it differently". Do you HAVE good reasons? Then bring them and we can discuss them.


    Except both stories don't TREAT skin color/race the same. Skin color in Tolkien's works has never been anything but a cosmetic detail. It's never made the topic of any of his plots, it's never given narrative relevance of any kind anywhere, and in many cases it's not even mentioned or defined AT ALL in the first place (like for the dwarves). For Tolkien, culture and language are the prime distinguishing factors, skin color is not.
    In CRA, race plays an integral role; heck the film BEGINS with a scene about racism (Eleanor in the hotel). It's about a specific culture in which race ABSOLUTELY plays a role, including phenotype.

    Those are not the same kind of story, and they treat race/skin color VERY differently.


    You're asserting that ethnicity equals skin color and matters to Tolkien in any way. Culture and language matter to him. Skin color does not. Which is why it's barely mentioned anywhere and is NEVER relevant to the plot ANYWHERE.


    And YOU SHOULD. Read Wikipedia or something, it takes all of ten minutes to get the gist.


    Oh 100%. I've talked about something in history that's of extreme importance to the history of racism (and that really everyone should know about, period). You said you didn't know about it. AND DID YOU GO AND REMEDY THAT BY READING UP ABOUT IT SOMEWHERE? Apparently not.

    QED.

    - - - Updated - - -


    If your standards are so strict you demand 100% accuracy to the original text, no adaptation EVER is going to suffice.

    If you accept less than 100% accuracy, then it's a negotiation about which details matter and which do not, in which case you need to justify why skin color matters if e.g. the color of a dress does not.


    How about you DO spell it out so people know what you're talking about.


    And that's not my argument. I'm not saying and have never said "this cast needs to look like US society". I'm only ever saying "if you want to exclude actors based on skin color, you need a good reason".


    So you're being a disingenuous snot noodle who goes from "here's one example" to "LOL HE THINKS THIS IS THE ONLY EXAMPLE"? I've even said, explicitly, that there's potentially infinite reasons, which is WHY I don't concern myself with making an exhaustive list but judge everything that's brought case-by-case.

    But that would require you actually reading what I said, wouldn't it.
    I am shocked by this. You really need to take a chill pill and calm down. Resorting to insults and name calling is only hurting your case, not helping.

  20. #2880
    Quote Originally Posted by Orby View Post
    I did want to create another thread like name it the 'positive discussion'. Cos I do agree you cannot discuss anything about the show here because its smothered by people talking about skin colour. I have tried to change the subject around but it just goes back to the same shit again.

    Not sure if the mods would allow it, but hopefully they will let us create another thread. And leave this thread to the outrage. ITs not fair on those that are looking forward to the show. this coming from someone who is highly sceptical about the show myself.
    To be fair, this topic is broad enough to have affected many other shows that it may as well be a dedicated topic unto itself.

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